Vendor not delivering parts Part II

[Roadrage David]

One problem with customer complaints on a public forum is : we never get both sides of the story ..
It's hard to know the details of what is really going on .
And once the hearsay is posted , it becomes like law .

Jeff Tate

Georgia, U.S.A.
Day's Chevrolet
1-800-282-0067
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry Jeff need to say something about that. Delet it if you whant, but thats a biast simple awnser.

So pro-touring. com take money / sponsering from vendors who place there ads here.
But custumors that get screwd over, cant say ore share there exsperience nore wil be given some form of a protecting status from Pro-touring.com. Do i understand that right!!??.

Couple of years ago there was this website called Pontiac warriors..
If you were looking for a engine builder you could use your pc mouse to click on a individual state shown on the map of the USA that you lived in .
Al the Known USA pontiac engine builders in that state came forward. People could give feedback about there dealings being it good ore bad , on EVERY single engine builder as long as they dind not used agressif and faul words.

This way you forced engine builders ore part vendors ecetera To stand out in there custumore sirvis . when people praize ore give a read flag to the companys they deal with you wil force them to compeat with echother who gets your orders.
In the end EVERYBODY but most of al the scene benifits!!. cheaper parts more bisenis more turn around bigger seen ecetera ecetera

At that time I chosen the engine builder who had positif feedback only!!. Sins that time i have imported 10 ore so engines of supurb quality. low prices. super custumor sirvis .
I became a real close frind to this man !!.
.needless to say that the one with the most negatif feedback (rock and roll engineering Bruce Fulper) proved to be the biggest cheater and conn man ever in pontiac engine builder history . who owes lots of money to a lot of people.
before he was spewed out . Magazines like Pontiac high performance and car craft used him as a engine builder in there magazine giving him PR. They where in my eyes also responsible of lots of people loosing there money. ore didnd got where they paid for. this ofcours is a exstreem case.
anyway i belive that
your statemend is based on Vendor protection!!
Even E-Bay hase a custumore feedback, So hiding behind a statemend "" we need two sides of the story"" is just another way of saying whe dont whant to loose our sponsers. because practily nobody who gets a good deal wil complaint RIGHT!!. YET its the member on this forum that make pro-touring.com work.
so who is screwing who then, ore who hase more intrest and benifit here...

[martin 1768]

In respect of all the vendors on this site, public the name of the vendor who diddent delivere the parts. and let us hear his part of the story.
Martin

[JEFFTATE]

Yes , we do need a way to protect members from incompetent vendors ..
A vendor rating system would help .

But , we also need a way to protect vendors from the one customer who slanders them without cause ..

[absintheisfun]

As a member that has has a problem with a vendor on this site, I agree that there needs to be a place where the forum allows the sides of the story to be told. I ultimately sent a PM to Larry, rather than broadcast my discouragement because I know the way this site stays up (vendor revenue). It is a blessing to have the free venue to meet, discuss and chat with certifiable car nuts, but a curse if we are burned by those funding it.

At the time of my problems I searched and searched but never saw anything bad about this company. However, recently I have seen many rumblings of this company's dissatisfied customers come forward only to have the thread get closed.

[parsonsj]

we also need a way to protect vendors from the one customer who slanders them without causeAnd to amplify that point: the typical complaint is anonymous, and the vendor isn't. The damage is heavily stacked in the complaining person's favor.

We're discussing this internally. There isn't an easy answer, and it isn't PT.com's responsibility to provide a mechanism for vendor complaints. It's flattering to hear that some of you think highly of our board and its influence, but we are going to proceed cautiously here.

As I mentioned in another thread, we have on occasion allowed a heavily moderated thread to exist with limited participation: just the complaining customer, the vendor, and moderators. If someone feels like that would be useful, they need to contact the moderators privately, with documentation of what the problem is. We'll try and mediate that and allow a complaint thread in our limited time. Just know that anonymous complaints won't even be considered. You'll need to give us a real name, and use it in the thread.

If that's useful to a member, contact one of the mods.

jp

[Denvervet]

Yes , we do need a way to protect members from incompetent vendors ..
A vendor rating system would help .

But , we also need a way to protect vendors from the one customer who slanders them without cause ..

I still don't buy this response. A forum is exactly the place where a vendor can defend himself and get both sides of the story. If a vendor doesn't want to defend himself well.......no response is a response.

[73z-6sp]

I am not sure where my opinion lies regarding this topic. I feel very strongly that others should be warned about potential problems regarding vendors or other users. I also agree completely that one person should not be allowed to destroy someones' reputation. If both sides cannot work it out privately either because someone isn't responding or otherwise then maybe public discourse is a good option.

To me...not delivering something paid for is outrageous, and should be, to moderators and users alike. Thats simple stealing. I hope that someone will let me know if I am about to make the mistake of using that person!

I have a complaint with someone on this site that I recently made a transaction with. I made some of the mistakes in the transaction but the other person must bear some of the blame also. They simply were not honest with me and sold me something other than I agreed to buy and didn't deliver all that was agreed upon. It was a large dollar transaction. I am hesitant to mention them in a thread like this because so many have had good luck with them. If I complained I would be the bad guy. But if I see someone mentioning doing business with this person I will absolutely pm them and tell them my story. They can take it how they want. I just don't want others to make the same mistake I did.

[parsonsj]

A forum is exactly the place where a vendor can defend himself and get both sides of the story.The problem here is that there is no independent verification of the actual events. Both customer and vendor are free to say whatever they want, and so the full truth will be elusive. The thread will probably not get both sides of the story, but only some of both sides, and likely only the parts of the respective sides that make themselves look justified. And most of that rationalization won't even be conscious by either party in the discussion.

[THE TECH]

I think it all comes down to money based on the responses thus far by the moderators. Maybe the shoe would be on the other foot if the site was funded more by the members. In addition, without the members, the vendors would not sponsor the site. I think more needs to be done for the people who keep the vendors in business.

[JEFFTATE]

I still don't buy this response. A forum is exactly the place where a vendor can defend himself and get both sides of the story. If a vendor doesn't want to defend himself well.......no response is a response.

You have a valid point , but a lot of vendors/suppliers may not know about a complaint thread .
Think of the dozens ( if not hundreds ) of forums on the internet .
No vendor can monitor all of them .

As John said , "the typical complaint is anonymous, and the vendor isn't. The damage is heavily stacked in the complaining person's favor."
We just don't want the good vendors on the site to get slandered in any way .
There are approximately 90 paying , advertising vendors on the site .
And very,very ( if any ) complaints about there service .

We don't want threads that turn into a chaotic argument , instead of some constructive carbuilding information .

None of the moderators or administrators of this site are going to take the side of a vendor who is not fullfilling their obligation to a customer .
We are not going to take up for a vendor just because they are a paying advertiser on the site .
We just want the complaint to be based on factual/documention and not heresay ( or public slander ).

There have been several occasions where the moderators have gone to bat for a customer , and told certain vendors to shape-up or leave the site .
But a lot of this has happend through PM's and discreet communication , so the no one ever knows it happens ..

[wmhjr]

I see both sides of this situation. But, IMHO, a site like this is the perfect place for "reasonable" conflicts to be discussed. If this site is to somewhat actively promote vendor support, then I think it's appropriate when site members have a difficult situation with a vendor. OTOH, we all know that it's far too easy for a buyer to flame a vendor without cause, potentially impacting the livelihood of that vendor in the future.

My suggestion would be that these kinds of conflicts should absolutely be permitted, but only as a last resort. New members should be prohibited from making such complaints, insuring that nobody joins here just for the express purpose of bashing a vendor. Further, I think that such complaints should be mod controlled rather than anyone being able to openly post a complaint without review. I know this places more effort on the mods, but to be fair - if you're going to foster a relationship with sponsors, I think you have an ethical responsibility to have some transparency.

Let's also be real about this. We have some great vendors here, and this is a great site. There is far less "flaming" activity here and more of a community of which vendors are equal partners. I seriously doubt that the frequency of these kind of complaints will be at all high. Maybe I simply have too much respect for the sponsors here, but I really don't think so. I should also mention that this subject is being actively discussed over on Lat-G.

Just my 2 cents. I applaud Larry and the crew for the site, and for trying to keep their heads here, but really do believe that a strict "no way" policy is counter-productive to the entire purpose of this site.

[1969CamaroRS]

Yes , we do need a way to protect members from incompetent vendors ..
A vendor rating system would help .

But , we also need a way to protect vendors from the one customer who slanders them without cause ..

Perhaps have a special forum where everyone can read but in order to post or create threads you need a certain post count or account has to have a certain age? Probably would require a lot of moderator time in any event.

[THE TECH]

Perhaps have a special forum where everyone can read but in order to post or create threads you need a certain post count or account has to have a certain age? Probably would require a lot of moderator time in any event.

Does having an account for a longer length of time mean that someone is more credible? Does that mean a new vendor would have the same lack of credibility?

[parsonsj]

Does having an account for a longer length of time mean that someone is more credible? Does that mean a new vendor would have the same lack of credibility?Of course. That's true in all walks of life. Reputations are built over time.

jp

[Tony_SS]

Perhaps the open discussion of disagreements might serve to educate future and existing customers on what to expect when ordering particiular items and dealing with vendors?

It also might serve the vendor to hear the concerns of customers to gauge if any improvements in their process might need to be made.

[jocko124]

What do you guys think about an anonymous vendor rating system? The only caveat would be an invoice emailed to Larry or one of the moderators showing a recent purchase--that way people are not rating vendors without an actual recent purchase.

[wmhjr]

Of course. That's true in all walks of life. Reputations are built over time.

jp

Wouldn't it be more fair to say in this case that having an account for at least a specified amount of time provides assurances that the individual has not joined simply to bash a vendor. Personally, if somebody has been around for 6 months or 6 years, I'm confident that they aren't here just to complain. Unless it's my spouse :) (In the interests of self preservation, I want to make it clear that the last comment was a joke and in no way undermines the fact that my spouse is always right)

[CRCRFT78]

Why not give sponsors a section to allow praise/criticism from customers when they decide to become a sponsor. The sponsors know ahead of time what it is used for and can address their customer related issues. Threads giving praise can be open for all to comment and threads related to negative issues with said sponsor can only be posted in by the OP and the sponsor. It would show no favortism while allowing the two sides to "air it out" if they choose to while hopefully correcting the problem.

[THE TECH]

Of course. That's true in all walks of life. Reputations are built over time.

jp

Interesting. So if I have an issue and since I am new on the forum, that immediately discredits anything I might say against a vendor? So I shouldn't support vendors in fear that IF I had an issue and IF said vendor wasn't handling it properly, I would be summarily dismissed based solely on the fact of when I joined the forum?? Doesn't seem to promote buyer confidence.

[Denvervet]

I think it just means if someone is new to the site they wouldn't be using this site to air their complaints. They would have to do what is presently done.....speak to the vendor and handle it directly. Not unreasonable in my opinion. Just like most things like this there will be no perfect remedies just better ones.
Interesting. So if I have an issue and since I am new on the forum, that immediately discredits anything I might say against a vendor? So I shouldn't support vendors in fear that IF I had an issue and IF said vendor wasn't handling it properly, I would be summarily dismissed based solely on the fact of when I joined the forum?? Doesn't seem to promote buyer confidence.

[THE TECH]

I think it just means if someone is new to the site they wouldn't be using this site to air their complaints. They would have to do what is presently done.....speak to the vendor and handle it directly. Not unreasonable in my opinion. Just like most things like this there will be no perfect remedies just better ones.

Actually this thread came about because of a customer not getting his calls/emails/etc returned so he was turning to the forum for help.

Why would you think that because someone might be new that they wouldn't be using this site to air their complaint? You don't have to be a member to view this site or buy from vendors. But maybe you are onto something with this. If the forum were only viewable to members, then you would have to be active on here to know what vendors were here in the first place to be able to purchase from them.

[DarkBuddha]

Yes , we do need a way to protect members from incompetent vendors ..
A vendor rating system would help.
Yes, or at least a vendor/seller feedback forum for such things in the Classifieds section. Such a forum would provide opportunity for both buyers and sellers/vendors to provide their side of the transaction experience. And because it would be in a separate section, it won't have the same visibility or presence on the forum as a whole except for those looking for such information or looking to engage in the conversation.


But , we also need a way to protect vendors from the one customer who slanders them without cause ..
Vendors do have ways to protect themselves: the law. Slander without cause is grounds for a lawsuit, as we all know. But consumers have very little recourse in the case of lousy customer service or poor product quality other than to complain and relay their experience to others. Not every criticism is slander. Not every public complaint is grounds for a lawsuit. And I do not think it is our place to determine or define those situations.

Now I don't know what the legal implications of hosting a forum in which slanderous threads appear, and I don't know how involved p-t.com wants to get involved in screening vendors' business practices. But if the official position is to allow vendors to promote products and services through the site with the status as an official site sponsor, then I think p-t.com does have some responsibility to its members to provide ways to provide feedback on the forum.

[1969CamaroRS]

Does having an account for a longer length of time mean that someone is more credible? Does that mean a new vendor would have the same lack of credibility?

I think the goal would be to prevent someone from just creating an account to flame a vendor either an ex-employee or someone trying to do so anonymously. At least a post count or account age would make this a little harder to do so, w/o something is trivially easy to do so.



Why not give sponsors a section to allow praise/criticism from customers when they decide to become a sponsor. The sponsors know ahead of time what it is used for and can address their customer related issues. Threads giving praise can be open for all to comment and threads related to negative issues with said sponsor can only be posted in by the OP and the sponsor. It would show no favortism while allowing the two sides to "air it out" if they choose to while hopefully correcting the problem.

Not a bad idea. Perhaps for a user to get posting rights to a vendor's area they need to show some type of proof of trying to reasonably resolve the issue (date and times of Phone calls etc, copy of receipt etc).

[parsonsj]

So if I have an issue and since I am new on the forum, that immediately discredits anything I might say against a vendor? So I shouldn't support vendors in fear that IF I had an issue and IF said vendor wasn't handling it properly, I would be summarily dismissed based solely on the fact of when I joined the forum??You should look up the definition of a straw man argument.

The point is that how long someone has been around matters, especially when credibility/reputation is at stake. We don't allow folks to sell parts in the classifieds here until they have 50 posts; the idea being that the person is part of the community before selling stuff, and that should help reduce fraud.

[1badchevelle]

As in the past to many people jump on the bandwagon when their is a service issue or unhappy customer. Most resent that I can recall was a shoot at Frank at prodigy. I have been here long enough to know better and was glad to see a thread by the same person appologizing for his actions. We do not need that crap on this site.

To the OP why 1 year to speak up. This should have been brought up to a mod months ago to try and help out. That has been done in the past. If at that point nothing would have been resolved than yes a thread with the issue naming the sponsor would be acceptable. BUT no one else should be allowed to chime in until the said sponsor would have a chance to post his side.

[THE TECH]

You should look up the definition of a straw man argument.

The point is that how long someone has been around matters, especially when credibility/reputation is at stake. We don't allow folks to sell parts in the classifieds here until they have 50 posts; the idea being that the person is part of the community before selling stuff, and that should help reduce fraud.

Done as requested.

I am merely trying to give the current and potential customers out there more of a voice for disputes whether it be on this forum or another forum. It seems that the moderation here is more focused on the people who feed the site monetarily yet forget that without the membership here, there would be no vendors and hence no money to fund this site.

I do not disagree that there needs to be a fair way for both parties in a dispute to handle grievances. It just seems to me that the moderation here is only concerned with the vendors. And to be honest, I think that you being a vendor AND moderator is a conflict of interest.

What I have seen done on other forums is where both parties involved can post in a thread regarding the dispute without the interaction of the peanut gallery. It is easy for outsiders to get wrapped up in a thread that has nothing to do with them.

[parsonsj]

To the OP why 1 year to speak up. This should have been brought up to a mod months ago to try and help out. That has been done in the past. If at that point nothing would have been resolved than yes a thread with the issue naming the sponsor would be acceptable. BUT no one else should be allowed to chime in until the said sponsor would have a chance to post his side.Right. I've mentioned this a couple of times now, and this option is available if someone has a complaint, right now.

To all, keep the ideas and comments coming. We appreciate the thoughtful and civil discourse.

jp

[parsonsj]

It seems that the moderation here is more focused on the people who feed the site monetarily yet forget that without the membership here, there would be no vendors and hence no money to fund this site. I appreciate the comment, but I think your perception is wrong. None of the mods are paid. Larry runs this site at zero profit. We spend much more time dealing with members than with vendors, and our primary focus is technical support for members building pro-touring cars.

Please stick around; we have a lot to offer, and the members here are the best on the internet.

jp

[THE TECH]

I appreciate the comment, but I think your perception is wrong. None of the mods are paid. Larry runs this site at zero profit. We spend much more time dealing with members than with vendors, and our primary focus is technical support for members building pro-touring cars.

Please stick around; we have a lot to offer, and the members here are the best on the internet.

jp

I wasn't implying that anyone was paid personally.

I don't plan on going anywhere. I really like this site.

[JEFFTATE]

Thanks for all the comments.
This is truly a valid discussion.

[Damn True]

Done as requested.

I am merely trying to give the current and potential customers out there more of a voice for disputes whether it be on this forum or another forum. It seems that the moderation here is more focused on the people who feed the site monetarily yet forget that without the membership here, there would be no vendors and hence no money to fund this site.

I do not disagree that there needs to be a fair way for both parties in a dispute to handle grievances. It just seems to me that the moderation here is only concerned with the vendors. And to be honest, I think that you being a vendor AND moderator is a conflict of interest.

What I have seen done on other forums is where both parties involved can post in a thread regarding the dispute without the interaction of the peanut gallery. It is easy for outsiders to get wrapped up in a thread that has nothing to do with them.

I can recall no less than 5 vendors who have been ousted from that right-hand column due to shady business practices, ripping off members etc. It's happened a number of times I assure you. By the same token, there have been a number of individual members who have been banned for bad trading and making false statements about other members and vendors trading. A lot of it never gets aired out publicly.

The thing is, that its easy for someone with a beef (valid or not) to join for the express purpose of bashing a vendor. We've had groups of people from other forums join simply to pile on when they've been led to believe that "a buddy" has been somehow wronged. Far more often than not, they are armed with far less than 1/2 of the story. It's pretty easy for some random anonymous new guy to make a forum post and damage the reputation of a business. Anything posted on the web true or not, can be found. Google cache is a pretty powerful tool.

It's a tough issue. We are working on a solution that meets the needs of the membership and requires credible and factual proof of an issue in order to protect the vendors as well from malicious defamation.

[6'9"Witha69]

I want to just point out tat the Moderators here are not cronies of the site owner nor the vendors. They too are gearheads, building cars in garages, with budgets, and buying parts from the very vendors who sponsor here. I am sure they too would love to know who is crooked and who is not. But this is a double edged sword. Without vendors, the site isn't free and couldn't exist in it's current form. Without members, why would vendors bother spending time/money to sponsor. The mods are placed in a very tight spot. Trust me, I believe their allegiances are with us. They just are trying to keep the torch and pitchfork crowd from gathering, and burning the "witch". And again, the axe swings both ways. They also keep members from beating each other up verbally and bashing / tarnishing each others reputations.

It seems like they are trying to fulfill a need here, and it will be controlled and civil. Hell, we have a political forum here, and it is well moderated, and even the most extreme topics are kept civil and on point. Few thought that could be accomplished, but they did. Not without extra effort by these volunteers, but it did happen.

I too am in favor of rating systems, but not of what sometimes is bashing over buyer's remorse, lack of communication, lack of understanding, or plain or stupidity.

Sitting back to see what the mods come up with.

[trapin]

The volume of traffic this thread has received and the passion you’ve shown has really underscored the importance of the issue; understand we share your concerns and it will not go unanswered. Although it is true that we have a responsibility to the sponsors who pay good money to advertise here, this message board was first conceived to serve the hobbyist. The advertisers came later.

As the stewards of this board it is our responsibility to make sure that the sponsors who advertise here are trustworthy and remain a viable option for the members. However it is also our responsibility to make sure that the members are trustworthy as well. With that said, we can’t parade around here like police officers and mitigation referees for every situation that arises. At some point, something has to give.

So the simple way to solve all of this “in theory” is to make available a Vendor Rating System. Just as you would in eBay, if you had an unpleasant experience with a vendor you'd have the option to go into his "Trader Rating" and with proof of purchase (credit card statement, receipt, bill, etc) you can give him a rating and air your complaint. The vendor would then have the option of one rebuttal and that effectively ends our involvement in the matter. Further mitigation would revert back to the vendor and consumer off line.

Now…are we going to do this? Can we do this? We don’t know yet. As John and Jeff stated earlier, we’re hashing it out. Bear with us.

Thank you again for your civility. You guys are the best.

[critter]

Me, I'm watching because I moderate 2 other car forums. We deal with the same stuff. The best solution we've found is to take the original posting, create a new thread with that post and lock it to all users except the one who's complaining and the vendor. The old thread is deleted. An explanation from a moderator is appended to the original post. Then we PM both parties and tell them it's there in the wild, start talking to each other. They can do it in public or private but either way the thread needs a closing post, whatever they decide. This way we keep the pile on posts out of the equation and still give both the vendor and the buyer the opportunity for free and open dialog. Hope that helps some. If there's a better way, I'm listening.

[DarkBuddha]

Another thought... sometimes witnessing two sides hash out a conversation is useful for getting a context for the issues. I know I've been very impressed with Frank's (at Prodigy) conduct in and approach to dealing with the recent threads criticizing Prodigy. This actually made the exchanges valuable for me as a potential customer.

If a rating system was made available (as opposed to a sub-forum dedicated to buyer/seller feedback), I think the contact info for both buyer and seller/vendor should be available (i.e. for PMs or email). This would allow those that have further questions and/or inquiries the ability to gather more info and get a broader picture of the issues involved.

[XLexusTech]

All I know is when you can't get an email from a vendor but they are busy posting here its natural to take it to the forum ....
I find it insanely irritating when their too busy to respond to a call or email but got plenty of time to hype the newest thing for sale in one thread or another...

The Forum has a big responsibility on both sides.... I am not saying its easy.. but the scale sure seems tilted

[Chad-1stGen]

First. I agree with the line of thinking that this forum is a perfect place to discuss car and more specifically pro-touring related experiences. If that experience is good or bad related to a vendor on this site or not it should be allowed to take place.

Second. I don't think it is PT.com's job to do anything about it other than providing the forum for the discussion. If a site supporting vendor has a customer service screw up it's not the moderator or Larry's job to make it right. That is between the customer and vendor. If moderators or admin's choose to get involved that is their choice and shouldn't be a "right" or expectation of the forum members here.

My two cents...

EDIT: Don't forget mods & members, there are plenty of sites out there to offer ratings good or bad for vendors. I only recently learned just how much yelp, google, city search, etc are being used for automotive suppliers. As a consumer I find this invaluable. As a business owner I see how tough it can be. My long time friend owns a very sucessful automotive repair busieness. He has many positive reviews and 3 or 4 negative ones. He can remember each and everyone of those customers and all but one of them (having only heard one side of the story) sure don't seem fair. And on there he can't have a civil conversation like can happen here.

[absintheisfun]

How hard would it be to create a new topic where each Vender has their own subtopic under their name. It could be moderated by the vendor (putting the responsibility to control in their hands) the power to delete/lock the threads would lie in a neutral moderators hands.
It would give a single place for each vender to hear and discuss praise or issues with their customers on this site, as well as give forum members a place to direct specific praise and complaints for each vender they find on this site.

[Six_Shooter]

There definitely is a lot to consider here for a fair way to deal with both dealings gone wrong and dealings that went well, as a rating or solution system.

One thing I don't agree with is, I'm paraphrasing since I have company that just showed up, but that a sponsoring vendor would or could not know of a thread or response that was not in their favour.
I disagree. Any site sponsor should have an interest in making sure that any issues or praise that are posted on a site that they sponsor be answered.
If they don't actively come on here and peruse the site, or simply use the search engine to find comments about them, then a simple e-mail from a moderator, or even a member when a posts comes up would definitely get their attention. For something more serious, or based on a quick resolution a phone call from a moderator/admin might be something worth considering.

This is an interesting topic and one of few I've read word for word on here. I'll be keeping a watch and read on this one. :)

[Ishmael]

I'm blown away by two things here. 1. How dead on Critter's approach is. No need for a feedback score when there is a search function - buyer beware idea. Plus, if the vendor puts there name out there and profits by it, shouldn't they have the responsibility to answer?
2. Larry doesn't get paid. Can he be sainted for that?

[parsonsj]

Larry doesn't get paid. Can he be sainted for that?:) Larry is the man.

[trapin]

Larry doesn't get paid. Can he be sainted for that?
We opted to have him Knighted instead. It was cheaper.

[sr73bu]

Instead of bashing a sponsor on an open forum, why not resolve the issue on a personal level (email, PM, or the best way over the phone... or if you're that pissed, show up and talk face to face). I've had bad experiences with vendors/sponsors before, but I choose to keep it to myself and keep it between me and the vendor... even if it gets ugly (and it has). Rather than hide behind the "start new thread" button, man up... make a phone call... and handle your own business.

The sponsors and vendors on this site are gearheads, they come here to offer a product and talk "shop"... not to entertain every single person who decides to start a revolution against not only thier company... but thier livelyhood.

If you don't have something nice to say...don't say it to me.... say it to the vendor... rip them a new one until you get the respect/ the part you needed... take them to court if you have too...

The sponsors/vendors are running a business, not Pro-touring.com... lets not turn this site into "Judge Judy". Handle your own business... your not saving anyone time or money by holding a "he said- she said" debate thread (because thats what rating systems/etc. turn into)... Lets come here and share ideas for building cars, not to play "jury" for latest guy that got his part a day late.

In the end, taking care of the problem without making it public usually ends way better than an "apology" thread or regreting a post the day after someone "pissed in your cornflakes" and you cooled off.


-Sean

[dontlifttoshift]

I really don't think this is the best spot to have it out with a vendor but I do realize that some people "need" to do that. The method that Critter posted seems the most reasonable way to do that. A rating system would become a poplularity contest and I think volume would skew the ratings.

Let's be honest, there is no one here that hasn't had a bad experience with a vendor at some point. The wait on hold for tech support is enough to bitch about with some of the large outfits. So now members would have a special spot to complain.....so they would. Kind of like I don't eat ice cream, unless its in the freezer at home.

I'm going to send Freiburger a nasty email.....Those enhancement pills didn't work and I want to know what he's going to do about it.:)

[wmhjr]

Sean, and dontliftoshift,
I understand your point but don't agree. First of all, the whole thing including suggestions like vendor ratings, my suggestion or critters suggestion are intended for when a vendor simply doesn't respond. Or to be honest, perhaps when a customer doesn't respond - for example if a vendor runs a custom shop and isn't getting either paid or return calls from a customer.

Second, to say take it to court is ridiculous. Sometimes we're talking about amounts where the cost is prohibitive. Or, where the location makes such an action impractical. It's just nonsense.

Third, when this happens, it can result in others not knowing and then THEY fall into the same trap.

Again, i have the utmost respect for the vendors here, and consider many friends as well as businesses - and I don't see this as being a big problem. But from time to time, things can happen.

[sr73bu]

Sean, and dontliftoshift,
I understand your point but don't agree. First of all, the whole thing including suggestions like vendor ratings, my suggestion or critters suggestion are intended for when a vendor simply doesn't respond. Or to be honest, perhaps when a customer doesn't respond - for example if a vendor runs a custom shop and isn't getting either paid or return calls from a customer.

Second, to say take it to court is ridiculous. Sometimes we're talking about amounts where the cost is prohibitive. Or, where the location makes such an action impractical. It's just nonsense.

Third, when this happens, it can result in others not knowing and then THEY fall into the same trap.

Again, i have the utmost respect for the vendors here, and consider many friends as well as businesses - and I don't see this as being a big problem. But from time to time, things can happen.

The whole court thing was me going on a tangent, however it may apply in some cases... party A owes party B $20,000+ for a service or a part that was not delivered...action will be taken... I wouldn't call it non-sense.

Anyway, thats not the point i'm trying to make... the point is, I foresee alot of... Company A vs. Pissed off customer/ pissed off friend/slightly pissed of customer/customer that wasn't fully satisfied/ guy that wants to start trouble and post BS... essentially Company A vs. everyone else. I think it may lead to a "biting the hand that feeds you" type deal. Sponsors names are smeared over one guy thats had a bad day and needs to express his frustration via a "these guys suck.." thread. Sponsor moves on, says "F" the event support and other involvement.

If a vendor doesn't want to respond, who are we to start judging them.. none of us had anything to do with the order or have any facts. I could post a thread on here about a major vendor i've had terrible problems with... from service, shipping, to quality... but I may be the only guy thats had that experience and now i'm going to thrash thier name on a podium because i can??? I'd rather resolve it and let everyone else find out for themselves... if they treated all of thier customers like crap the business will desolve on its own... I'm not going to speed up the process because of "its all about me"... If i'm the only guy thats had a problem, I make a post about it, in effect deter potenial satisfied customers.. then who does that benefit? Especially when its quite possible every single person before me may have been happy with thier service, shipping and quality.

wmhjr- I think in a perfect world a rating system may work, but there are way too many levels of what a satisfied customer expects... a perfect part for me, may be dog crap quality to you... Most people are more likey to go out of thier way to post a negitive score than a postive one... "Its all about me" and if "me" is happy, then "me" moves on... but if "me" is not happy, than "me" bitches, moans, hisses and starts telling the world about it.

-Sean

[wmhjr]

Funny, but if you look at the history on this site, you see quite a bit of members posting a positive comment about vendors - and very rarely a harsh word concerning a vendor. Start by looking at some of mine. I'm one of the guys arguing for this and I've never posted a complaint about a sponsor, and have posted a number of kudos, thanks and recognition for them. Let's be honest - not all transactions went perfectly either. I've had sponsors not come close to meeting promised delivery dates, etc. Sometimes things happen. No flame. It would just be nice to know that if there was ever an issue that was NOT resolved, then it ought to be transparent.

Let me give you another example. I had some chrome work done by a shop having nothing to do with this site. I had major issues, and ended up having to get police involved just to get my parts back. After the fact I find out that others have had the same issue. Now ask me just how much it would have been worth up front to have a clue about this, resulting in my choosing another vendor?

I look at it from a pretty simple perspective.

1) We are fortunate to have some really great vendors/partners especially on this site, which means that I seriously doubt that we'd end up with a flame war. I just don't buy it.

2) We are encouraged to "support our sponsors" - which I have zero issues with and try my very best to do.

3) If we're going to be actively encouraged to "support our sponsors", then from an ethical point of view there needs to also be a way for the very infrequent - nonetheless possible - bad situations to be addressed. This helps to improve the service provided by the vendor in question, resolve the issue that the buyer has, and potentially (if a trend develops) help others avoid a similar issue. Sure, if a vendor is constantly hacking over customers eventually it will PROBABLY catch up with them. But not always, and frankly it doesn't matter if it catches up in 8 months if you place an order within 2 months. I think we can all come up with some vendor names (to be clear - NONE of our sponsors fall into this category to my knowledge) who somehow manage to stay in business despite very poor service and/or quality. We both know this is true.

This is JMHO. This is Larrys place, and whatever happens is OK. Great guys here all around. I just happen to not like covering crap up, and frankly I find this site to be the most relevant one all things considered, so I always defer to judgement and experience of others here more than on other sites.

[shmoov69]

First off, Larry you got an awesome site and you have made it a place where we can hang out and BS and make new friends
Which brings me to the second point. We (or most!) on here have become friends in a pretty real sense. If I was going to open a door that had a mugger behind it and my friend knew it, I would be seriously pissed if he didn't tell me BEFORE I opened it!! Rather than hearing AFTERWARDS, "dude, I knew you were going to get your butt kicked and left to die, but I thought I'd let you figure it out for yourself!". I know that it is a sticky situation, but we are all pretty much buddies here. Most of us would open up our house or garage to eachother to help out if given the chance. That is how much I feel we trust eachother here. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think so. Most if the sponsors here are real people and car people too. Maybe just tell the sponsors when they "sign up" that this is a community of friends and that if they don't conduct themselves in a professional manner, then they are subject to being "exposed" to the entire "family" to see. Obviously it would have to be moderated and kept civil by many of the ideas stated earlier. But seriously, we need to watch out for eachother.....that's what friends do!
My .01 worth! LoL

[dontlifttoshift]

Yep, we are all on the same team and should have each others back. That's why if I see a post about a product that I know sucks I will pm the OP and let em know...I don't do it much here because it is usually covered before I get there.

It really doesn't matter to me how this goes down cuz I would never take an internet rant as gospel. I wouldn't even consider it a half truth unless it came from someone whose opinion I respected a whole lot, Like the Pope, my wife, or Charlie Sheen. There is just too many variables with stuff like this.

We all know the guy who could break a steel ball with a rubber mallet, right? So Knuckelhead buys a rubber mallet and a steel ball and locks himself in a rubber room with a video camera and does his thing. Mallet wins. So he gets two posts one to say how great the rubber mallet he got from so and so was and another post to warn everybody about someone's steel balls and how they crack and crumble. Then some random metallurgist who never posts anything, ever, joins in and says "it MUST be poor heat treating" Within weeks google searches across the country are telling anyone that searches for steel balls that this particular brand of steel balls have poor heat treating. Then it starts getting regurgitated in other forums relating to steel balls, meanwhile the rubber mallet company is running three shifts to keep up with demands because of the rave review. In reality, Knucklehead is an idiot.

It could happen.... One guy can create a hurricane of poop just because he is unhappy....with or without good reason.

Now the fine print, if you didn't giggle at least a little reading that and took it totally seriously you are going to be pi$$ed at me. I am not all stupid, I realize that people do have a legitimate gripe in some cases but I deal with vendors everyday, some of them sponsors on here some you have never heard of. I have never been unable to resolve a situation with a phone conversation...

Its late and Im rambling....I'm still with critter on this.

[Roadrage David]

Glad to see this is being discussed. I used to be totally ignored in the past probeley because of my dislectia and being dutch.
I DO belive that this forum hase a DUTY to protect the custumours that are members on this forum . Against bad bisenis from sponderd Vendors.
Again This Scene ore movemend called pro-Touring is kept alive by 3 parties The forums Vendors and custumors/members wo spend there hard eurnd cash in this rather ECSPENSIF hobby.
Some of us have a larger walled then others, and others like myself who are from Europe have to pay 25% Tax not only on the part valiuew but on the costs of shipping as wel!!!!.
Can you imagine how often we get THE WRONG parts and cant send them back because thats econimicle not posible...

having mentiond our EUROPEAN forum members dilema witch should NOT be overlookt .Lets get back to this topic.
Howmanny times have we heard vendors saying and promising stuf like short dilivery and ore DIRECT bold on ecetera ecetera.
then as soon as your $$ are in its out of your hands into theres LITTERLY.

There is NO rezen not to get a Vendor rating and ore a way to ecspress your exsperionse with a vendor being it good ore bad.
as said befor everybody wil bennifit in the long run.

if a Site sponser screws up and gets bad feedback on this forum and canncel his sponser ship . then he wassend a assed to the scene ore forum ore members in the first place!!.Otherwize he would NOT have multiply negatif feedback

Lots of people can be stopt from being screwed out of there money if others could have should have would have been able to comend.
It can be done very simple.
Every site sponser gets his own feed back line topic ore whatever.
every complaintend ore peron that whants to praze hise dealings get 4 lines ore somanny letters to say his thing . a vendor gets the same to difend his dealings. end of story.
hase the problem been solved at a later date ,then both parties can askt the moderaters to delete there posts. and ore do it themselfs.
If the problem isend ore thuse not gets solved. it stays up there in a list (hopefully for the vendor) ful with lines of good merrit.

The sponsering Vendors who stand out should and would get our MONEY and rightfully disirf so!. and thats how it should be.. This thussend say that good vendors is not getting a ocasional bad ore negatif feedback .
But you can always look at the statisticks and ore the% of the feedback.... To make a judgemend who gets you money!!

[sr73bu]

wmhjr-

I totally agree about "not covering up crap"... I just don't know how everyone defines crap. You and I let things slide because we understand "***** happens", where others will anounce a scratch on the inside of thier new oilpan to the world and give a bad rating. I'm obviously not the type of person that relies on others to make a decision or to get in my head about where to buy, but there are people that do make decisions based on this. I have to admitt, i've used companies before that have had negitive feedback and I was actually impressed with thier service and product... had I been more of a "follower" I would not have even give them a chance.
I guess my point lies in whats happening right now: you have two people discussing an opinion.. nothing more nothing less. People will take sides (see above)... the discussion will turn into a debate... the debate turns into an arguement... then the friendship that was bonded by a hobby turns into bad blood. (i assure you this wont happen here wmhjr, I not upset about your opinion, just sharing what i've experienced)

Again, I do believe we can watch out for each other.. my OPINION is the rating will be skewed based on the simple fact that when you are happy with a part or service you open the box and go work on your car. If you are not, the whole world knows. You have to admit, the amount of parts ordered on this site by members are huge each year... i dont see thousands of "gee this part is awesome" threads, I see more of the "this part sucked" kind of thread... and quite frankly those are the threads that get attention.

I see this somewhat working if the rating system is REALLY promoted... good or bad as a member of the site its encouraged that you make a rating... I still think more of the unsatisfied will participate... like dontliftoshift said There are just too many variables with stuff like this... to many "know it alls" and the people that follow them.

-Sean

[absintheisfun]

Instead of bashing a sponsor on an open forum, why not resolve the issue on a personal level (email, PM, or the best way over the phone... or if you're that pissed, show up and talk face to face). I've had bad experiences with vendors/sponsors before, but I choose to keep it to myself and keep it between me and the vendor... even if it gets ugly (and it has). Rather than hide behind the "start new thread" button, man up... make a phone call... and handle your own business.


Sometimes that is not an option. THe vender that I was having trouble with dodge me for months. It started with a call a month, then two per month, then a call per week, then two, then one a day. He stopped answering the phone, and ignored voicemails. I emailed every week, and sent PM's through this site and others that he sponsors every week as well. Considering the guy lives 1100 miles away, stopping by wasn't really an option.

[wmhjr]

Sean, the only response i really have is - look through my posts. You'll see a pretty large number thanking vendors for their service. Very few mentioning problems, and those were done very nicely and not at all harshly. None whatsoever flaming. I dont think I'm all that special in that regard. Seems to me that this is the norm. For this forum. I see no signs of this changing. Matter of fact I agree that ratings would probably be skewed. Toward the positive.

[sr73bu]

wmhjr- i know the kind of person you are and the type of people that are on this forum... most of them are class acts. I've seen your posts and just by looking at your avatar see that we agree on many levels. I just know there are people out there that get off on flaming a company or product. I've seen company bashing on other forums and I felt people took advantage of the podium. BUT, this forum is different, we do have a more mature crowd and thats something I really wasn't considering... and should have.
you dont have to prove your character to me, i've already seen your posiive feedback and diplomatic approach on something negitive... its the "other guy" that I feared would take advantage of the rating system. Again, the current group of guys here are all well respected and treat others with respect... its the growing crowd that concerns me... the "other type" of forum member that signs up to vent.
Overall this thread has been a good discussion, I'd like to hear some of our vendors/sponsors views on this matter.... they may love the idea.

-Sean

[Ron.in.SoCal]

Couple of sideline observations for you guys - first off, the guy posted on Lat G that he got most of his parts and will continue to do business w the vendor. He also said that he could've done a better job on his end communicating w the vendor.

I think a number of excellent philiosophical issues have been raised in this thread and I have refrained from posting till now to avoid speaking out of turn (read: going off). I did speak to Larry today and he is all about making this fair and just for the members and vendor sponsers. I am not putting words in his mouth, just relaying my perception of what he told me 1:1. All the mods are taking this thread/issue seriously and looking at ways to implement some of the great suggestions in this thread. I believe positive action will come from it, if Larry is to be trusted (just kidding Larry!).

In this second thread, it's great to see open communication from all sides and value from the mods in letting this go forward. I'm glad I'm part of this community. Keep communication open, and good things will come from it.

[wmhjr]

Truth is, the posts in this thread alone are proof of the pretty unique nature of this board. Look at how many posts there are showing concern over being totally fair, and about the welfare of both the guys running the board, and the vendors that support it. Guys, in my experience, that's a great thing and isn't very common.

Sean, thanks for the kind comments.

[dhutton]

Couple of sideline observations for you guys - first off, the guy posted on Lat G that he got most of his parts and will continue to do business w the vendor. He also said that he could've done a better job on his end communicating w the vendor.

No parts for 8 months and they show up a couple of days after his post. Is that a just a coincidence? Would be interested to hear if it was.

[Ron.in.SoCal]

No parts for 8 months and they show up a couple of days after his post. Is that a just a coincidence? Would be interested to hear if it was.

Yeah Don, I'm sure there's plenty of backstory to be revealed on this one....

[1969CamaroRS]

On LatG the OP seems to indicate that there might have been a mix up in the email addresses.

[parsonsj]

He also admits not calling the vendor for the entire time before posting his thread.

I'd call that a failure to communicate, and as a moderator, I think we did the right thing by closing the original thread down. If you don't call the vendor, you shouldn't be posting a thread.

jp

[wmhjr]

John, not saying I disagree. However, it's also significant to note that the OP was pretty level headed in his original post, and was open about the result. I think it deserves note that even the OP that was posting the issue seemed to at least publicly treat the vendor pretty fairly - though clearly at least a very major part of the communication gap was the responsibility of the OP.

[dhutton]

His first post says the following:

"I've sent him numerous emails(no reply) and actually talked to him several times. "

So apparently he had been talking to the vendor at some point. Emails or not, surely there is no good excuse for holding someone's money for 8 months without following up with them. Any competent vendor should have systems in place to track and follow up on open orders, especially ones that are 8 months old...

Just my two cents,

[1969CamaroRS]

He also admits not calling the vendor for the entire time before posting his thread.

Not sure where you saw him state that. From what I read he seemed to indicate he should have tried to contact him more after the emails were not being returned.



I'd call that a failure to communicate, and as a moderator, I think we did the right thing by closing the original thread down. If you don't call the vendor, you shouldn't be posting a thread.

jp

Completely agree, only after repeated attempts to contact them by both email and phone should one even consider a forum thread. And more often that not, least for the smaller vendors, they could be at show that week or vacation etc. Best to ask if anyone has had trouble contacting them (seen a number of those threads), usually someone knows and you get a quick answer.

This is my rule of thumb:

If it is something that doesn't need an immediate response
I'll email the vendor my question, this lets the vendor respond when things are slow for them.
If no response in 48-72 hours, I respond to my own email asking nicely if I can get an answer to my question (they can then very easily see I am asking the same question a 2nd time).
If still no response after another 24-48 hours, I'll pickup the phone and call them.

That gives a vendor basically a week to turn around email. Unless I caught them just as they left for a show or 1 week vacation even the smaller vendors have had reasonable time to respond to email.


If it is something I need a quick response to I'll pick up the phone and call them
If they don't pickup, I'll leave a message with a quick summary of my question, my name, and my number, with a kind request that they return my call.
No response in 24 hours and I'll call them again and leave another message if I still don't get them asking nicely for a return call stating I already left a message.
If still no response in 24 hours, I'll randomly try them over the course of the 3rd day to see if I can get them on the phone, no message is left (they already have two).
I might consider at this point emailing the vendor asking for them to contact me via phone if I haven't emailed them already.
If still no luck after a 3rd day of trying to call, then I'd probably consider trying in the forums if anyone has had trouble contacting a vendor.

Most likely after 3 days of calling, its due to a car show, heavy backlog or vacation related (had all of those happen), once even a vendor had just recently gone of of business.

[parsonsj]

So apparently he had been talking to the vendor at some point. Emails or not, surely there is no good excuse for holding someone's money for 8 months without following up with them. Any competent vendor should have systems in place to track and follow up on open orders, especially ones that are 8 months old...Don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to rationalize the vendor's actions. You're right: the vendor should have processes in place to be aware of this.

It's just that the first thing we told the OP to do was to call the vendor. Many of us assumed that he had, but it turned out that he was sending emails to nowhere. Once he called, the email situation got straightened out, and his parts came right away. If he had called, say, last June, all this would have been avoided.

jp

[rogue]

Funny, but if you look at the history on this site, you see quite a bit of members posting a positive comment about vendors - and very rarely a harsh word concerning a vendor. Start by looking at some of mine.

You make negative comments about vendors, you're making negative comments about the cashflow for the forum. Thats a quick way to get banned.

[critter]

OK, why would you say that? Do you know of a single person banned because of negative comments toward a vendor?

[kochevy67]

Glad it worked out now we need to move on.

[andrewb70]

OK, why would you say that? Do you know of a single person banned because of negative comments toward a vendor?

I am quite sure that this has never happened in the past and will not happen in the future. We aren't exactly ban crazy around here.

Andrew

[BulldawgMusclecars]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Federal Trade Commission require regular updates on backordered items? I know they used to, and probably still do. At least one of the vendors I use has sent me FTC notices before.

[TheJDMan]

There are a couple of suggestions that were proposed in this thread that I think could work if combined.

1. A vendor section with sub-sections for each vendor. This would be a specific place where users could communicate with a specific vendor one on one.

2. A moderator option to lock a thread within this vendor sub-section so that only the user/vendor could post. This would eliminate disinterersted third parties from getting in the way of the discussion between the user and the vendor.

[ModernMuseum]

You make negative comments about vendors, you're making negative comments about the cashflow for the forum. Thats a quick way to get banned.

That's silly and irrational. A lot of vbulletin sites have vendor rating integration, which are valuable to both parties.



His first post says the following:

"I've sent him numerous emails(no reply) and actually talked to him several times. "

So apparently he had been talking to the vendor at some point. Emails or not, surely there is no good excuse for holding someone's money for 8 months without following up with them. Any competent vendor should have systems in place to track and follow up on open orders, especially ones that are 8 months old...

Just my two cents,

Agree. There is no good excuse for holding someone else's money for any amount of time without proper communication of an order's status.



As in the past to many people jump on the bandwagon when their is a service issue or unhappy customer. Most resent that I can recall was a shoot at Frank at prodigy. I have been here long enough to know better and was glad to see a thread by the same person appologizing for his actions. We do not need that crap on this site.

To the OP why 1 year to speak up. This should have been brought up to a mod months ago to try and help out. That has been done in the past. If at that point nothing would have been resolved than yes a thread with the issue naming the sponsor would be acceptable. BUT no one else should be allowed to chime in until the said sponsor would have a chance to post his side.

Posting facts in a thread by hitting the "reply" button instead of the "new thread" button isn't jumping on any bandwagon. The OP of that thread had exhausted all of his resources and used the forums as a last resort, and I'm sure he thought long and hard about the repercussions of doing so. I posted in that thread to add merit to the situation with my own personal experience, without intent to debase anyone. If you had bought 5 figures worth of parts and waited almost half a year to receive them and had communication problems with the vendor, you probably would have too.

[parsonsj]

The OP of that thread had exhausted all of his resourcesLet's see. He sent emails to a non-responsive address. If that's exhausting all his resources, I'm afraid we disagree on the definition of "exhausting". :)

jp

[rogue]

OK, why would you say that? Do you know of a single person banned because of negative comments toward a vendor?

I've seen it on other forums, never here. Its common.

[rogue]

I am quite sure that this has never happened in the past and will not happen in the future. We aren't exactly ban crazy around here.

Andrew

No not here definitely. I used to admin at 300cforums and saw hennessey melt down, and the admin ban people for talking negatively about sponsors. Don't know about here, but at "the other forum" I receive this little threat simply because my opinion differed from an admin.


Either clean up your posts or simply don't post. It's your choice. Your holier than thou attititude with snide connotation is growing very thin.

Take this for what it is, a simple request - and not just from me, but also from many members of our community that I talk to on a regular basis.

This PM isn't a debate or a discussion.

Thanks,

NO DEBATES OR DISCUSSIONS ON A FORUM. :spank2:

[dhutton]

Let's see. He sent emails to a non-responsive address. If that's exhausting all his resources, I'm afraid we disagree on the definition of "exhausting". :)

jp

I must be missing something here. His first post clearly stated he had talked to him several times. Has he retracted this statment?

[parsonsj]

His first post clearly stated he had talked to him several times. Has he retracted this statment?All of the verbal discussions took place either before, during, or immediately after the order. The long period of "the vendor has my money, and I don't have any parts" period was marked by no communication, other than the invalid emails.

Here's what he said over on Lat-G:
It appears this vendor was not getting my emails. I know the address was right because when I wanted to write him i'd respond to one of his old emails. I'm guessing he was not getting my emails because of his spam filter. when talking to him on the phone he seems honest and straightfoward. When my emails were 100 percent ignored, i thought he might be just stringing me along. The truth is I wanted my parts. Plan to order something from him in a few days. this is partly my fault for not asking him if he was getting my emails, i am sorry for that.

jp

[67zo6Camaro]

Post #36 from XLuxusTech

Yes,,, good point. Most of us have seen similar concerns posted on this forum "paid x amount up front and have not received goods, and now the vender will not respond to my inquiries", yet we see the vender repeatedly chime in to make a sale or gloat about their services. So, it is conveyed that they have little time to complete a business transaction, but have plenty of time to engage in more transactions to receive more funds.

Also, I do not see the vender coming forward in any of these discussions about vender complaints and/or buisness etiquette. In my opinion, it is not proper buisness behavior to ask for large sums of money up front, and then float the product way past a reasonable time for the industry.

Now on the side of the forum administrators, in my opinion, you can not run a forum (a place for open communication) unless you have some fair system in place to openly discuss experiences with venders requardless if the vender is a forum supporter. Doing so, just waters down the forum's credibility for true and accurate information.

Forum members should be allowed to simply, and factually, post, "On this date I purchased.... and paid.....it has been x amount of days....product did or did not show up, and vender was able or not able to respond to my complaints." Something as simple, even form like, would allow for factual/objective information to be displayed. In addition, the vender could have a reply spot to this post. This type of post will allow readers to make their own judgement whether or not that type of business transaction is up to their own set of standards before they engage in a transaction.

The forum already has plenty of freely expressed praise about vender transactions, now let's work on the other side of the two-way communication dealing with fair criticism. It is the back bone of open communication. Otherwise, this forum may need to seek counseling on how to communicate fairly and openly to satisfy all parties involved.

Brett

[67zo6Camaro]

First off, Larry you got an awesome site and you have made it a place where we can hang out and BS and make new friends
Which brings me to the second point. We (or most!) on here have become friends in a pretty real sense. If I was going to open a door that had a mugger behind it and my friend knew it, I would be seriously pissed if he didn't tell me BEFORE I opened it!! Rather than hearing AFTERWARDS, "dude, I knew you were going to get your butt kicked and left to die, but I thought I'd let you figure it out for yourself!". I know that it is a sticky situation, but we are all pretty much buddies here. Most of us would open up our house or garage to eachother to help out if given the chance. That is how much I feel we trust eachother here. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think so. Most if the sponsors here are real people and car people too. Maybe just tell the sponsors when they "sign up" that this is a community of friends and that if they don't conduct themselves in a professional manner, then they are subject to being "exposed" to the entire "family" to see. Obviously it would have to be moderated and kept civil by many of the ideas stated earlier. But seriously, we need to watch out for eachother.....that's what friends do!
My .01 worth! LoL

x2... in similar words.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

I figured that what made the bond between boys here was the fact that you would give them headsup and opinions on what and who to deal with if you couldnt do it yourself.

Ive had my fair share of getting burned.. and i would have LOVED it if someone gave me headsup on it... i would surely look out for them in the future..

sometimes good advice is hard to take.. and even more so FOR a Vendor.. which may in tale telling them you could be doing better business..

I dont see why the mods on here are so vigilant FOR the vendors.. hell i even seen them backup shops that arent even vendors.. almost never the individual.

and ive been on here a while now..

matter of fact..

the only times i seen individuals GET AN ANSWER for the missing parts, or shetty work, or getting burned.. is when they NAME DROP the person, and SHOW THE EVIDENCE...

then after i seen them do that.. BOY.. does an answer pop up QUICK THAN A MUTHA from said person or vendor.. THEN there is dialog.. with everyone watching to see how it goes..

IF the person MAKES IT RIGHT.. everyone puts down their torches and THE VENDOR looks good..

ive seen that before... and its great when that happens..


but this locking everything is some old bull if you ask me... If anyone wants to know the opinion of whomever ive bought parts from, or built any of my cars I WILL GIVE THEM MY HONEST OPINION.
and thats it...

looking out for my homies on here.. get that?

[joejaze]

I figured that what made the bond between boys here was the fact that you would give them headsup and opinions on what and who to deal with if you couldnt do it yourself.

Ive had my fair share of getting burned.. and i would have LOVED it if someone gave me headsup on it... i would surely look out for them in the future..

sometimes good advice is hard to take.. and even more so FOR a Vendor.. which may in tale telling them you could be doing better business..

I dont see why the mods on here are so vigilant FOR the vendors.. hell i even seen them backup shops that arent even vendors.. almost never the individual.

and ive been on here a while now..

matter of fact..

the only times i seen individuals GET AN ANSWER for the missing parts, or shetty work, or getting burned.. is when they NAME DROP the person, and SHOW THE EVIDENCE...

then after i seen them do that.. BOY.. does an answer pop up QUICK THAN A MUTHA from said person or vendor.. THEN there is dialog.. with everyone watching to see how it goes..

IF the person MAKES IT RIGHT.. everyone puts down their torches and THE VENDOR looks good..

ive seen that before... and its great when that happens..


but this locking everything is some old bull if you ask me... If anyone wants to know the opinion of whomever ive bought parts from, or built any of my cars I WILL GIVE THEM MY HONEST OPINION.
and thats it...

looking out for my homies on here.. get that?

Well said. I will add that I have seen the same course of events played out on other forums as well.

[Tony_SS]

Well said Mr.V.

I will add this about the 'calling' thing. Yes a phone call should be made, but as a customer, I think WE are owed the service, not the other way around. It's like calling AT&T when they screw up your bill.

If you are going to sell parts online or here, I think the vendors have a responsibility to communicate via email, PM or openly here in the forums. Of course you know those emails and PM as answered pretty quick when they are working for the sale... but afterwards?

[1969CamaroRS]

Forum members should be allowed to simply, and factually, post, "On this date I purchased.... and paid.....it has been x amount of days....product did or did not show up, and vender was able or not able to respond to my complaints." Something as simple, even form like, would allow for factual/objective information to be displayed...

The forum already has plenty of freely expressed praise about vender transactions, now let's work on the other side of the two-way communication dealing with fair criticism. It is the back bone of open communication. Otherwise, this forum may need to seek counseling on how to communicate fairly and openly to satisfy all parties involved.

Brett

Well said.

[novanutcase]

The way I see it....

OP paid vendor for part. His job is done.

Vendor had order in hand with delivery date

Once that date passed VENDOR has the responsibility of contacting customer to let him know that parts will be late. That is my definition of proper customer service.

WHY does the customer need to be doing the customer servicing that the vendor should be doing?

We all get busy in our workdays but if you wait 8 MONTHS to deliver a part without communicating with your customer, regardless of whether your customer tried to contact you or not, you deserve to be bashed...

JMO

Vendor rating system is sorely needed not only on this site but ANY site that has vendors that support them. Mr.V is right on track.....

Again, JMO.....

John

[GRNOVA]

The way I see it....

OP paid vendor for part. His job is done.

Vendor had order in hand with delivery date

Once that date passed VENDOR has the responsibility of contacting customer to let him know that parts will be late. That is my definition of proper customer service.

WHY does the customer need to be doing the customer servicing that the vendor should be doing?

We all get busy in our workdays but if you wait 8 MONTHS to deliver a part without communicating with your customer, regardless of whether you customer tried to contact you or not, you deserve to be bashed...

JMO

Vendor rating system is sorely needed not only on this site but ANY site that has vendors that support them. Mr.V is right on track.....

Again, JMO.....

John

This is it in a nut shell , well said John!I have been burned before and would have love to have read about the Vendor good or bad but lay it out straight, no bs! I like the take half $ up front and take the other half $ upon shipping. This way the customer still has a little to hold on to and the Vendor needs to produce in order to get paid in full! JMO

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

well if that is a problem then the mods shouldnt shut down threads that state feedback from pt.com users about vendors.

if there is no "vendor feedback or rating" for them then a thread on dealings with them should be open.. as long as the parameters are set.

the who, what, when, and how we gonna fix it parameters..

I dont think its PT.coms responsibility to provide vendor feedback.. but if you guys know someone may be getting screwed at least you should have
the guys back by giving him a place to talk about it..

again..

all I ever seen when threads like this happen is the wheels get to turning again.. for the little guy usually.. Sometimes the Vendor comes in a straitens it all out..
and if we as a group think that the little guy is a little shet then we take torches to him and make him publicly appologize..

cause we ALL are little guys.. til we get together.. then we arent so little no more.

you dig?

[novanutcase]

well if that is a problem then the mods shouldnt shut down threads that state feedback from pt.com users about vendors.

if there is no "vendor feedback or rating" for them then a thread on dealings with them should be open.. as long as the parameters are set.

the who, what, when, and how we gonna fix it parameters..

I dont think its PT.coms responsibility to provide vendor feedback.. but if you guys know someone may be getting screwed at least you should have
the guys back by giving him a place to talk about it..

again..

all I ever seen when threads like this happen is the wheels get to turning again.. for the little guy usually.. Sometimes the Vendor comes in a straitens it all out..
and if we as a group think that the little guy is a little shet then we take torches to him and make him publicly appologize..

cause we ALL are little guys.. til we get together.. then we arent so little no more.

you dig?

EXACTLY.....strength in numbers.

If vendors realize that they are going to get called out on the carpet they may think twice about how they handle they're customer service. That doesn't mean that if some little whiny azz mawfawker is bitching and moaning for no real reason we will take it as gospel either. If he's going to be posting a negative about a vendor he better back it up with dates and paperwork. I think that most on here can read between the lines and distill what is really going on.

John

[andrewb70]

......I think that most on here can read between the lines and distill what is really going on.

John

Actually, empirical evidence shows the exact opposite to be true.

http://arno.unimaas.nl/show.cgi?fid=16744

In a nutshell, people perceive information that is read on Internet forums, by anonymous posters, to be as credible as reports in the newspaper.

Andrew

[newmexicosaint]

Vendors know when they are operating unethically. Even the ones who roam, post and frequent this site. The same can be said about the consumer who's intent is to defame a vendor unjustly. Sadly, I have learned that some vendors can't be trusted to follow through as promised and choose not to communicate to their customers. The best lessons are the hard ones. Don't use them if they fail.

Consumers who unjustly seek to hurt ANYONE'S reputation without just cause is equally pathetic.

We have a code of values in my business that we, as a group, read out loud every week before our meetings. Here they are...

We live our Code of Values by…

Respect

…treating others as we would like to be treated.
…listening with the intent to understand what is being said and acknowledging that what is said is important to the
speaker.
…responding in a timely fashion.
…speaking calmly and respectfully, without profanity or sarcasm.
…acknowledging everyone as right from their own perspective.


Integrity

…making only agreements we are willing, able and intend to keep.
…communicating any potentially broken agreements at the first appropriate opportunity to all parties concerned.
…looking to the system for correction and proposing all possible solutions if something is not working.
…operating in a responsible manner: "above the line…"
…communicating honestly and with purpose.
…asking clarifying questions if we disagree or do not understand.
…never saying anything about anyone that we would not say to him or her.

If more people would operate by these codes we would have less problems like the ones discussed.

[novanutcase]

Actually, empirical evidence shows the exact opposite to be true.

http://arno.unimaas.nl/show.cgi?fid=16744

In a nutshell, people perceive information that is read on Internet forums, by anonymous posters, to be as credible as reports in the newspaper.

Andrew

Then I guess I'm in the minority......

John

[andrewb70]

Vendors know when they are operating unethically. Even the ones who roam, post and frequent this site. The same can be said about the consumer who's intent is to defame a vendor unjustly. Sadly, I have learned that some vendors can't be trusted to follow through as promised and choose not to communicate to their customers. The best lessons are the hard ones. Don't use them if they fail.

Consumers who unjustly seek to hurt ANYONE'S reputation without just cause is equally pathetic.

We have a code of values in my business that we, as a group, read out loud every week before our meetings. Here they are...

We live our Code of Values by…

Respect

…treating others as we would like to be treated.
…listening with the intent to understand what is being said and acknowledging that what is said is important to the
speaker.
…responding in a timely fashion.
…speaking calmly and respectfully, without profanity or sarcasm.
…acknowledging everyone as right from their own perspective.


Integrity

…making only agreements we are willing, able and intend to keep.
…communicating any potentially broken agreements at the first appropriate opportunity to all parties concerned.
…looking to the system for correction and proposing all possible solutions if something is not working.
…operating in a responsible manner: "above the line…"
…communicating honestly and with purpose.
…asking clarifying questions if we disagree or do not understand.
…never saying anything about anyone that we would not say to him or her.

If more people would operate by these codes we would have less problems like the ones discussed.

Gene,

You are absolutely correct. If everyone operated by the principles that you outline above, there would be few problems with vendor / customer relations. We are not disputing that vendors have to treat customers properly, nor are we stating that customers should not have some recourse if a vendor is being unresponsive.

The main question at hand is: What is pro-touring.com's role in this matter?

There are various mechanisms that are already in place to help consumers with vendor issues. Someone mentioned the FTC guidelines for back orders. There are also other organizations such as the BBB. I am also a member of Angie's List. They have a new section that is devoted strictly to "Classic Car" vendors and services.

Pro-touring.com is a web forum. It is a publishing medium where the content is generated by all participating members. Advertising revenue is used to maintain the infrastructure and pay for the bandwidth that this forum requires. Moderators are not compensated for their time.

This matter is being discussed and some action will be taken in due fashion.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Then I guess I'm in the minority......

John

In academic terms you would be called an extreme outlier. :cheers:

Andrew

[novanutcase]

The main question at hand is: What is pro-touring.com's role in this matter?

There are various mechanisms that are already in place to help consumers with vendor issues. Someone mentioned the FTC guidelines for back orders. There are also other organizations such as the BBB. I am also a member of Angie's List. They have a new section that is devoted strictly to "Classic Car" vendors and services.

Pro-touring.com is a web forum. It is a publishing medium where the content is generated by all participating members. Advertising revenue is used to maintain the infrastructure and pay for the bandwidth that this forum requires. Moderators are not compensated for their time.

This matter is being discussed and some action will be taken in due fashion.

Andrew

Technically you are correct. PT has no responsibility in matters like this. I think what many of us are trying to get across is that PT is not a sterile environment where the only thing that is disseminated is technical information. It's morphed into so much more than that. It's a community of like minded gear heads. PT is really just a digital clubhouse where we can all congregate and obsess about our passion. That being said, it's inevitable that many will forge friendships and with that comes a certain responsibility to "have your friends back" by posting warnings about certain "bumps in the road".

If PT.com is going to let advertisers in by taking their money to advertise on the site I would think that there is a certain responsibility in their protecting their membership from being preyed upon by those that they've, in a sense, approved by letting them in. I understand that you can't filter out every douche bag vendor but in a case like this some sort of protocol needs to be implemented so that there is at least some modicum of recourse.

John

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

^ co-signed.

[aronhk_md]

This is one of the things I really like about this site: Everyone expresses their opinion without nastiness. Its one reason I dont spend much time on yellowbullet...they have a bunch of keyboard badasses. I have met real men with integrity and courage, and those men needed none of that bravado. So I thank Larry and the moderators...whatever your recipe for keeping it pleasant...its working.

On the subject, or at least in tandem with the subject at hand - transparency in any sort of complaint is important. I'm not the first to bring this up, but I believe PT should consider moving to require user names that are actual names. Other forums have done this, and I think it discourages B.S. I have even seen forums go so far as to require credit card verification. This way a name and address is assigned to a user in order to allow them to post. Not all of their info is obviously available to other members, but it is available to moderators. This could be a penny, or a dollar to register. True, this might keep the roaming interested internet observer from seeing a subject of interest and signing up to make a post, but chances are that one time hitter isnt coming back anyway. Anyone serious about this site will come back a few times just because there is lots to keep their attention, and eventually they will say what the heck and pull out their wallet.

Another thought in line with this subject is a formal complaint form. This could be designed by moderators.....maybe with member input as to what we'd like to see on it. It could be a rule to post your complaint this way so it doesnt meander, get nasty or go back over and over the same points.

COMPLAINT:
PARTIES INVOLVED:
DATES/TIMELINE OF CONTACT OR EVENTS:
EVIDENCE (RECEIPTS, PICS, EMAILS):
CURRENT STATUS:

As has been mentioned...and critter has this one exactly right...the only ones allowed to post should be the parties involved. If a vendor spends their money to advertise here, they should be required as part of that contract to participate once informed of an issue. It really isnt good enough if they just dont respond. Sure, its an answer of sorts...but not sufficient. Finally, and critter has this one too...a final post should be made by all parties involved if possible, or at the least a moderator if they know anything about the situation.

The idea of a feedback system or vendor rating system is nice...people leaving positive feedback should need no approval to do so, but people should be required to contact a moderator to leave negative feedback. Truth is this will be the hardest part of this type of system because for example if I were to call a vendor and the vendor indicated they were to call me back....time passes....I leave messages, but never get a call....shouldnt I have a right to leave some sort of negative feedback? This becomes a qualitative call on the part of a moderator, as opposed to the quantitative and easier call to be made when for example a customer has a receipt but never received what they paid for.

Anyway...its good to have this conversation and I look forward to seeing the ideas continue here.

P.S. - I have seen instances where a vendor with a very good reputation has dropped the ball. Whether its a change in their staffing, a change in life itself for a principal in the company, outgrowing their supply chain or customer service capability...the reasons can be endless. It is important for moderators especially to keep a neutral stance and not play favorites regardless of past performance on the part of a vendor.

[dhutton]

Technically you are correct. PT has no responsibility in matters like this. I think what many of us are trying to get across is that PT is not a sterile environment where the only thing that is disseminated is technical information. It's morphed into so much more than that. It's a community of like minded gear heads. PT is really just a digital clubhouse where we can all congregate and obsess about our passion. That being said, it's inevitable that many will forge friendships and with that comes a certain responsibility to "have your friends back" by posting warnings about certain "bumps in the road".

If PT.com is going to let advertisers in by taking their money to advertise on the site I would think that there is a certain responsibility in their protecting their membership from being preyed upon by those that they've, in a sense, approved by letting them in. I understand that you can't filter out every douche bag vendor but in a case like this some sort of protocol needs to be implemented so that there is at least some modicum of recourse.

John

Very well said. It chaps me when I see vendors running roughshod over members here and more so when I see them allowed to continue without so much as a simple acknowledgement and apology.

[Tony_SS]

No vendors have posted in this thread. lol

[Roadrage David]

Ofcours they do not!! post. But il bet they read every post being made!!!. vendors that have a lack of sirvis are seeing /feeling that there is a colectif tought about doing bisenis with Vendors that cant diliver the way they should . fackt that this topic hase somanny posts and klicks in sutchs a short notice sais enoughf about the problem.......................

[andrewb70]

.....It chaps me when I see vendors running roughshod over members here and more so when I see them allowed to continue without so much as a simple acknowledgement and apology.

Ok. This is exactly the kind of hyperbolic language that we are afraid of. That single statement makes it sound like this is some sort of endemic condition on this forum, when in fact that is far from the truth!

Also keep in mind that this thread features participants that have the strongest opinions on the matter. This is what we call "self select bias" in academic research. The voices that are being heard belong to a small minority, but the illusion is that this is the opinion of the majority. Once again, that is simply not the case. There are a total of 110 responses in this thread. Even if we don't account for duplicate posts that amounts to less than 0.5% of the total board membership. Let's keep things in perspective.

Andrew

[wmhjr]

Andrew, to be clear it would be more accurate to say that we don't know if the opinions stated in this thread represent the majority on this site or not. One could also make the argument that some others would be even more strongly opinionated, but are of the impression that the site prohibits them from stating there information. Interestingly enough, I think that the overwhelming majority of posts here are pretty "centrist" rather than being emotionally biased one way or another. For me, I have no issues and have never really had an issue with a sponsor here. It's more of a "what's the right thing to do" discussion from my perspective.

[Tony_SS]

I would also like to give Jon at Drivers Inc + feedback. $25 bucks for a set of lug nuts delivered! And they are powedercoated gloss black - you can't beat that deal. Great service too. :)

I think a lot of vendors here deserve props for supporting our hobby. A moderated feedback forum could benefit them greatly. my .02 anyway.

[aronhk_md]

Andrew...there is more than one type of bias at work here, as is usually the case in ANY participation group. The one you mention is just the most obvious and your comment perhaps unfairly paints a picture of them as disgruntled individuals in general. They are in fact the ones who should be voicing their opinions here and most likely we are only hearing a few of them.

There can be reasons why certain moderators will post in a thread like this and others wont, and can in some instances be a form of bias. I have never had any negative dealings with any vendor here or any other website either. Perhaps I've been lucky. I've read about people who have had difficulties of course, and it just makes sense to me to have a method to leave feedback about them.

Honestly I sort of liked ebay's old feedback system where the buyer AND the seller were allowed to leave feedback for a transaction. When they took away a seller's ability to leave feedback for buyers I think they destroyed any chance for feedback to be meaningful.

You will always have some individuals who will pull the trigger quickly and badmouth a vendor, or a transaction. To be perfectly blunt if the vendors are so thin-skinned that they cant accept that they will not please 100% of their customers then they need to get out of retail or the service sector.

[andrewb70]

Andrew...there is more than one type of bias at work here, as is usually the case in ANY participation group. The one you mention is just the most obvious and your comment perhaps unfairly paints a picture of them as disgruntled individuals in general. They are in fact the ones who should be voicing their opinions here and most likely we are only hearing a few of them.

There can be reasons why certain moderators will post in a thread like this and others wont, and can in some instances be a form of bias. I have never had any negative dealings with any vendor here or any other website either. Perhaps I've been lucky. I've read about people who have had difficulties of course, and it just makes sense to me to have a method to leave feedback about them.

Honestly I sort of liked ebay's old feedback system where the buyer AND the seller were allowed to leave feedback for a transaction. When they took away a seller's ability to leave feedback for buyers I think they destroyed any chance for feedback to be meaningful.

You will always have some individuals who will pull the trigger quickly and badmouth a vendor, or a transaction. To be perfectly blunt if the vendors are so thin-skinned that they cant accept that they will not please 100% of their customers then they need to get out of retail or the service sector.

Please don't attribute meaning to my words, other than what I say literally. The words that I carefully used were "strong" opinion. I never said "disgruntled." An individual need not have a bad experience to have a strong opinion of an issue.

As for your hint to moderator bias, there is a more simple explanation. Some of us have more access to the computer during the day than others. Thus you are hearing from the ones that have the most access.

There are a great many points being said by everyone. Some have clearly experienced bad vendor relations other simply want to voice an opinion regarding the matter.

The questions for pro-touring.com to address are as follows:

1. Is negative vendor experience a prevalent phenomenon on this forum?
2. If (obviously there are some) there are negative experiences, what percentage can be classified as negative? (how this might be measured is a whole other matter for discussion. Do we measure satisfaction? Do we measure percentage of parts received in the promised length of time? How do we operationalize this?
3. If it is found that a significant (statistically speaking) number of negative vendor experiences exist what is pro-touring.com's responsibility in this matter given our potential legal exposure, and resource constraints?
4. If pro-touring.com does have a responsibility, are we in a better position to help our members than some of the other methods that have already been mentioned, such as, the FTC, BBB, and Angie's List?

I hope you all can appreciate what a simple sentence like "Let's have a vendor feedback system" truly means. I also hope that you all understand that any feedback system is only as accurate as the information that is being fed into it. It's the old "garbage in, garbage out" story.

I am by no means discounting the fact that some people have had negative experiences. I personally am very much against a vendor charging a credit card on an order before it is shipped. But as consumers we all have to take responsibility and perform the due diligence BEFORE placing an order for thousands of dollars. It is the customer's responsibility to get the exact terms of payment. It is the customer's responsibility not to assume anything! Just like it is the vendors responsibility not to be fraudulent and fulfill orders as quickly as possible.

As I said before, we are discussing this matter further. It is not something that will be acted on quickly or irrationally.

Andrew

[novanutcase]

Please don't attribute meaning to my words, other than what I say literally. The words that I carefully used were "strong" opinion. I never said "disgruntled." An individual need not have a bad experience to have a strong opinion of an issue.

As for your hint to moderator bias, there is a more simple explanation. Some of us have more access to the computer during the day than others. Thus you are hearing from the ones that have the most access.

There are a great many points being said by everyone. Some have clearly experienced bad vendor relations other simply want to voice an opinion regarding the matter.

The questions for pro-touring.com to address are as follows:

1. Is negative vendor experience a prevalent phenomenon on this forum?
2. If (obviously there are some) there are negative experiences, what percentage can be classified as negative? (how this might be measured is a whole other matter for discussion. Do we measure satisfaction? Do we measure percentage of parts received in the promised length of time? How do we operationalize this?
3. If it is found that a significant (statistically speaking) number of negative vendor experiences exist what is pro-touring.com's responsibility in this matter given our potential legal exposure, and resource constraints?
4. If pro-touring.com does have a responsibility, are we in a better position to help our members than some of the other methods that have already been mentioned, such as, the FTC, BBB, and Angie's List?

I hope you all can appreciate what a simple sentence like "Let's have a vendor feedback system" truly means. I also hope that you all understand that any feedback system is only as accurate as the information that is being fed into it. It's the old "garbage in, garbage out" story.

I am by no means discounting the fact that some people have had negative experiences. I personally am very much against a vendor charging a credit card on an order before it is shipped. But as consumers we all have to take responsibility and perform the due diligence BEFORE placing an order for thousands of dollars. It is the customer's responsibility to get the exact terms of payment. It is the customer's responsibility not to assume anything! Just like it is the vendors responsibility not to be fraudulent and fulfill orders as quickly as possible.

As I said before, we are discussing this matter further. It is not something that will be acted on quickly or irrationally.

Andrew

I completely agree with what you say and the questions you pose certainly illustrate the complexity of the issue so I wouldn't expect a "quickie" resolution to this issue. I applaud the level headedness and prudence of yours and the sites thinking.

I will add that the one thing that jumped out at me in your last post was "....and perform the due diligence BEFORE placing an order for thousands of dollars." Wouldn't a feedback system greatly enhance the ability of your membership to be able to perform this "due diligence"?

John

[aronhk_md]

Andrew...sorry if it sounded like an attack....most certainly didnt mean it that way. What I was trying to say is the by introducing the epidemiological term "bias" without explanation might be offensive. If I approach someone and say..."You're biased." that immediately puts that person on the defensive. Bias in scientific study is REASON or driving force behind why a person does one thing or another. The bias you refer to regarding someone burned by a vendor participating in a thread like this is one type of bias. The fact that you have access to a computer more often or at certain times of day is actually another form of bias.

Professional pilots participating in a fitness study is another example of bias. Since pilots have to take frequent and more stringent physical exams than the general public they are a bit more health conscious as a group than the average cross section of the public. Any situation that gets more response from a particular age group over others will introduce bias.

Since you brought up "bias" as a term here I didnt want anyone to consider that as an attack, and I also wanted to point out to you that there are definitely other bias type factors at work that contribute to who will participate in a thread like this.

Honestly though I think you are going WAY too deep in your analysis of this problem.

1. Is negative vendor experience a prevalent phenomenon on this forum?
No, and I dont think anyone is saying or thinking that. I also dont think that having a vendor feedback forum section will make it APPEAR that such is the case even though negative things are likely to be said in such a place.
2. If (obviously there are some) there are negative experiences, what percentage can be classified as negative? (how this might be measured is a whole other matter for discussion. Do we measure satisfaction? Do we measure percentage of parts received in the promised length of time? How do we operationalize this?
Why go into this? Just give people a moderated, formatted place to have a complaint (and preferably positive comments too) with a way for the vendor to respond. Allow them to both show whatever evidence they have. Make a rule that if it turns nasty verbally then they lose the right to post there. And thats IT. Let the READERS determine whether the 50 cent bolt the person was unhappy with was enough justification for a complaint.....or whether the 2 weeks they waited was long enough. After all, its the READERS who will determine where they want to spend their money...not you moderators, and thats the way it should be.
3. If it is found that a significant (statistically speaking) number of negative vendor experiences exist what is pro-touring.com's responsibility in this matter given our potential legal exposure, and resource constraints?
While I understand that you'd like to have a formula for this I think you as moderators will just have to approach this decision on an individual basis....as before. There are going to be obvious occasions of abuse where you are going to say THIS VENDOR IS DONE DOING BUSINESS HERE, and there will be tougher calls. To try to lay it all out before hand is like trying to make a battle plan. As soon as the first bullet flies the battle plan is out the window. Oh, and having the feedback section will actually make it easier for moderators in a way. Chances are many people will just stop buying from a vendor on their own long before you have to make a decision whether that vendor should be here. And legally you are actually covering PT's butt by having a place for people to air complaints because it gives PT a more neutral stance. Without a feedback section PT can appear to be on the side of the vendor just due to the fact that you receive money from them.
4. If pro-touring.com does have a responsibility, are we in a better position to help our members than some of the other methods that have already been mentioned, such as, the FTC, BBB, and Angie's List?
Simple answer: YES. PT is in a far better position by providing a feedback forum to help its members figure out who to spend with and who not to spend with. If you ask people here when the last time they looked at FTC, BBB or Angie's List before contacting a vendor on this site I think you will realize the answer is ALMOST NEVER. But people wll peruse a feedback section in a forum. You are going to have to give the readers here enough credit not to just throw in the towel and avoid a vendor because they read that Joe Shmoe didnt get his wheels when he was told. With the group we have here MOST of us will need to see obvious evidence of negligence on the part of the vendor.

[andrewb70]

Andrew...sorry if it sounded like an attack....most certainly didnt mean it that way. What I was trying to say is the by introducing the epidemiological term "bias" without explanation might be offensive. If I approach someone and say..."You're biased." that immediately puts that person on the defensive. Bias in scientific study is REASON or driving force behind why a person does one thing or another. The bias you refer to regarding someone burned by a vendor participating in a thread like this is one type of bias. The fact that you have access to a computer more often or at certain times of day is actually another form of bias.
.......

I really don't feel like responding to all that, because honestly, it doesn't matter. We have our own cognitive dissonance working overtime and it's utterly hopeless to bicker back and forth. Having said that, I'll bite.

Someone please post up links from other forums that have a vendor feedback section so we can all check them out.

Andrew

[Damn True]

Guys, please take a second to consider that in involving the ownership/staff (all unpaid) in merchant/client disputes exposes PT.com to potential involvement in legal issues between the merchant/client if the dispute should happen to escalate to that point. While we recognize that there is a very small chance of that happening, the potential liability to PT.com if even simply in terms of time/effort given to responding to various legal entities if not far more is not something we are taking lightly.

In short, this is not so simple a matter as creating a forum or flipping the vendor feedback switch in vBulletin. It may seem like an easy thing to do, but the potential ramifications are intensely complicated to say the least.

[critter]

http://www.transamcountry.com/community/

Find the TAC Feedback forum. Like I said, not the greatest solution but what we've tried.

There will never be an answer that satisfies everyone. Like the moderators here, we are concerned regarding the legal ramifications and our moral obligation to both sides of any dispute.

[andrewb70]

http://www.transamcountry.com/community/

Find the TAC Feedback forum. Like I said, not the greatest solution but what we've tried.

There will never be an answer that satisfies everyone. Like the moderators here, we are concerned regarding the legal ramifications and our moral obligation to both sides of any dispute.

That forum is setup for members to give feedback regarding other members. I also only see a "positive" forum. Where is the "negative" forum.

I'd still like to see a forum that has a section specifically for vendor feedback.

Andrew

[nvr2fst]

Guys, please take a second to consider that in involving the ownership/staff (all unpaid) in merchant/client disputes exposes PT.com to potential involvement in legal issues between the merchant/client if the dispute should happen to escalate to that point. While we recognize that there is a very small chance of that happening, the potential liability to PT.com if even simply in terms of time/effort given to responding to various legal entities if not far more is not something we are taking lightly.

In short, this is not so simple a matter as creating a forum or flipping the vendor feedback switch in vBulletin. It may seem like an easy thing to do, but the potential ramifications are intensely complicated to say the least.

Greatly put True. Some don't realize the hinder that could be placed on the forum and its moderators. I would hate to see a community forum get involved in the legal system of a dispute using this forum or any other as "exhibit A" so to speak.
On another note- If you view the history on most of the builds here or any other pro-touring type of site you will most likely notice that well over 50% of it members rely on getting there parts from the forum vendor list. That being said there has to be some type of vendor feedback implemented or the member may go elsewhere.
Im not so surprised to see no vendors posting in this thread. But to you vendors with good standing, why not? I would love to hear what most vendor policies are for follow up and communication. Show it here, its in writing nuf said. I would hate to call each vendor asking that question every time I need something. To the vendors that haven't been coming through, well lessons learned. They might get something out of hearing how others perform these tactics. I have noticed though that the vendors who sell/specialize in one or two given products are typically the ones not in question. It's usually the vendors who sell multitudes of parts from a secondary vendor party to them. I highly doubt you will see bad feedback from companies like DSE because they distribute their own products. And for myself thats what I look for lately. Why would I buy a Ring Bros. hood hinge from a secondary when I get it from them direct. Yes, it may cost a little more ( Im not a vendor buying in discount bulk or line of credit) but mostly likely the product will be delivered in a timely manner.
To the vendor thats pulling this BS- post up. I bet a simple apology to our guests here would keep them in good standing. We have all been in one type of delama at one time and most hear would be understanding (well I know I would, Im to easy) Just dont give us two pages of Drama. I think the moderators do a great job here and I can personally attest that John has helped me in the past with similiar instances. Be patient guys, Most likely something good will come out of all this feedback here and at Lat G.

[Roadrage David]

Guys, please take a second to consider that in involving the ownership/staff (all unpaid) in merchant/client disputes exposes PT.com to potential involvement in legal issues between the merchant/client if the dispute should happen to escalate to that point. While we recognize that there is a very small chance of that happening, the potential liability to PT.com if even simply in terms of time/effort given to responding to various legal entities if not far more is not something we are taking lightly.

In short, this is not so simple a matter as creating a forum or flipping the vendor feedback switch in vBulletin. It may seem like an easy thing to do, but the potential ramifications are intensely complicated to say the least.

I cal a frindly BS on this. You can tel ore have every vendor that is going to suport your site .To acsept a rule of Vendor feedback!!! if they agree then there is no isue and that company hase at least a hounest set up.
if they dont agree then that company knows from itself they are lacking sirvis. no legal issue!!!!!!!!!

[critter]

That forum is setup for members to give feedback regarding other members. I also only see a "positive" forum. Where is the "negative" forum.

I'd still like to see a forum that has a section specifically for vendor feedback.

True. I'm just trying to give an example of something that might help. You'll also see that every supporting vendor has their own sub-forum for communicating with the members. I'd like to think that's another tool to help avoid misunderstandings to begin with. Anyway, just thoughts to try and help.

[aronhk_md]

I'm not sure that you are really opening any legal liability not already open previously by allowing a section of feedback and or complaint. In fact, one could argue that you are MORE open to liability by not having such a place to voice these issues and REMOVING a post or thread where someone made a complaint. A court could find that PT by taking advertising money is actually an agent for the vendors while appearing to be otherwise...whether or not anyone at PT made a penny of profit.

With a feedback/complaint section you set certain rules, like no vulgarity, only the parties involved, etc. Then you let those parties essentially handle it. The rest of us are just observers deciding who we prefer to spend our money with.

Here is an example on Performance Years forum:

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=469

Granted, its not JUST for vendors. Its for vendors, individuals, and anyone else....ebay sellers, etc. But it seems to work. You have to read the rules for posting there. Anyone looking for threads on a particular vendor/person would just do a search in that section of the forum for the name...all will pop up. And if you'll notice much of it is positive.

[CarlC]

I'm not sure that you are really opening any legal liability not already open previously by allowing a section of feedback and or complaint.

On that point we are in agreement. We don't know what our liability exposure is, or could be, on such topics. Hence, the site mod's and management will continue to error on the side of caution. We hear what you all are saying, and there is a great amount of discussion going on among the moderators and management, but it's not prudent to move forward too fast without all of the facts.

[cluxford]

this is a can of worms that there will never ever be a right or wrong answer for, there are reams of legal positions around this. Slander and defamation the two big ones.

Simple fact, in any discussion environment (the pub, over the phone, email, text, internet forums etc) anything you say, be it factual or your opinion has the potential to be legally challenged by one of the parties mentioned. A company who has bad things said about them can legally defend against those claims, likewise if a company says something about a customer the customer has the same rights.

Forums as privately owned enterprises have a fine line to walk in managing what is said and what isn't

But evolution has a funny way of changing the way we think. The internet has changed everything. A companies market has grown from local, to regional to international, whereas before if word got out they weren't great it affected their local market, now it can affect the global market.

But history shows (plenty of reports on this) that word of mouth is the biggest new business generator and the biggest lost business cause, it's just that in the past word of mouth was literally that...spoken words in pubs, mothers meetings, BBQ's etc. Now word of mouth is all over the internet, so there is a "paper trail" on who said what

Human behaviour will not change, we all want people we respect and trust to share with us their honest views of good / bad companies to work with, that is the way of the world...

None of us will solve this problem here, I think we are putting Larry and the Mods in a very difficult position, no way they can win this debate at all, some one some time will go legal and it will cost Larry a bucket just to defend his position.

No matter what rules are in place when you sign up, even rules such as the views expressed by members are not those of PT.com the reality is that the legal system does not see it that way

I agree that people sharing their feedback is great, a rating system could work, but like all things can be easily manipulated also, heavily moderated threads, sure but who is responsible for bring both parties together, upset vendor, what can they do can they call out a member who has not paid etc, upset member can they call out a vendor, but who knows if it's fact or fiction....

As said no one wins here....and I don't know the answer, I am just not envious of those who are trying to craft a happy medium for all...tough tough job

[aronhk_md]

Do appreciate it Carl, and Andrew....and everyone. I LIKE PT.com! I even get occasional amusement from watching the vendors compete for the same morsel...lol

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/03/thumbsup-1.gif

[Jim Nilsen]

I have read most all of this and have been on both sides and can only say, the biggest problem that causes most of the problems is the objectives needed to be satisfied when making purchases. Time and money conflict when you think all of the money in the world can get you the parts you need now and be the right parts. Simply buying from the right place for your needs can solve most problems with a purchase but not always. We live in world of 'just in time" and it is killing us and making us all at the same time. Promises are broken because of things like government intervention or other stupid things things like weather , but these things make vendors eat a lot of crow and customers get angry. Stupid shows up somewhere and it all goes down from there. It won't stop and better buying preparation is sometimes the key to enjoying doing this for pleasure.

The proactive thing to do to help resolve a lot of vendor/customer problems is to start a thread on "How To Buy Right" or something like that. The main point is that we all learn how to make purchases from different people and it would really be nice if the vendors would step up and maybe tell us the best way to purchase from them and get the best deals for the time frame involved for the buyer. Price is not the usual problem in conflicts but it is sometimes the reason we purchase from one vendor over another and that can cause a conflict in the routing of the parts and the time it takes.

We can try to protect ourselves from the words with more words but I think trying to educate people on how to buy car parts the Smart way would really help the most.

Now back to figuring out who is going to be,

Pro-Touring.com Vendor of the year !!!!

[Danny Thomas]

I have had a bad experince with a highly exposed vendor on this site with deceit and poor work and refrained from using the forum as a battle ground even though I have PM's to prove my case. I believe that we should allow neither good reviews if bad ones aren't allowed. Larry and several of the mods are good friends of mine and I would hate for them to be included in some legal suit. But I also believe that forums were meant to be a site where we could learn how good a product works, vendors are reliable, achieve general info and make new friends. The Camaro5 forum has been very helpful in getting involved with disputes and seeing that its members are not harmed by deceitful vendors. The least the Mods do, is contact the vendor and allow them to explain their point of view on the forum. If a vendor is wrong..I assure you several members will post their experiences once one does...Moderators have cars too...do you want to get screwed? Biggest problem is that it is Larry's responsibility to police his vendors otherwise he may become liable. Maybe a private site to post complaints and with enough from a vendor..he is removed. I would pay to be a member knowing I was on a site that was sponsored only by honest vendors and there are many of them on here. If we are not allowed to post complaints..Guys talk at every event you are at..I do and you quickly find out problems and who and who not to use...you will be amazed at what you find out.

Talk enough and a vendor will either correct their wrong or go out of business..If one gets screwed why should more be victims? I want cars at my events,not setting in a garage waiting on wheels or some part or work that was promised and never delivered...Larry and guys..you got to find an answer...this is a sue happy society we live in. You're in a political arena whether you know it or not.

[Doug1]

It doesn't seem to be such a difficult thing. Instead of people pontificating on the merits of legal or moral responsibility, just use some common sense.

As Critter suggested, put the two parties into the ring by themselves and let them duke it out. It will become clear very quickly who is full of baloney and who is not. If you don't have your facts in order before you get in the ring, you'll get your butt kicked. Documentation will rule as it should. If you can't back up your claim, you get a butt whuppin. That's the American way!

If a third party wants to join in, too bad. He needs to have his own complaint thread if he wants to make a real statement.

Why try to find ways to make this complicated? It really isn't.

[Steve Chryssos]

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

If you have a problem with a vendor, please don't bug Larry. Call your credit card company. Long before message boards and the internet, credit card companies teamed up with the direct market association to establish a base time frame for sight unseen "mail order" transactions. It's called The 30 Day Rule. Google "FTC 30 day rule" for TONS of information or just click the link above. It's a great tool for consumers and vendors alike. It's the guideline that we, Twist Machine, LLC follow every day. And there has NEVER been a complaint about Twist or any of its carefully chosen vendors. Sharing this 30 Day Rule info will no doubt piss off companies who choose to take your money up front and ship whatever whenever. I'm sure I'll make some (more) enemies. I already lost a great friendship over this very subject, but screw it. I think this problem is clogging up the marketplace. It's bad for everyone.
The 30 Day rule is just a guideline. Basically the rules establishes a reasonable time frame for transactions. The rule then establishes reasonable guidelines for amending the timeframe as needed. Communication is the key.

SO:
-If you place an order and start getting anxious at day 12, your credit card company will probably tell you to chill until about day 30.
-If (on the other end of the spectrum) a vendor took your money 12 months ago, won't communicate, and has not delivered your order, you should've called your credit card company MONTHS ago and asked for a charge back. Of course, demand a refund directly from the vendor before initiating a charge back. And document all attempts at communication.

Larry and pro-touring.com have NOTHING to do with the order process. Do you complain to the NFL if you drink a skunky beer while watching the Superbowl? Nope. It's between you, Circle K, and the King of Beers.

Trust me: If a vendor gets hit with a few charge backs, they'll lose their credit card processor. And rest assured, credit card companies are quick to share their blacklists. A charge back is a big deal. The vendor will quickly disappear without the need for a message board rating system or a lawsuit. And if the vendor is not also the manufacturer, complain to the parts manufacturer directly. I would want to know as soon as possible if one of Twist Machine's dealers was blowing off customers.

[aronhk_md]

Thats a suggestion that needs to be followed if no other resolution is available. But comparing it to contacting the NFL isnt an apt comparison. The idea behind a feedback forum is two-fold.

1) We are members of the community sharing negative and positive results with other members of the community. It gives other members good ideas where they might want to spend $. Unlike the NFL PT isnt here just to be entertainment. We come here to assist each other, learn new things, etc.

2) By placing a problem directly in the view of other members you actually ENCOURAGE a vendor to take care (with a valid issue) of the dis-satisfied customer. Without this the vendor might not feel as obligated to perform good customer service. Having it in plain view for everyone to see will definitely separate those with good customer service from those who have none.

Its a win/win situation for all involved. Good vendors with good service and products get to have lots of backslapping. Members get a place to try to resolve issues before trying a chargeback approach, or where a chargeback is not possible. Other members get to keep tally where they might want to spend their money.

[Steve Chryssos]

The NFL thing was humor. The crux of my point is that bad dealers can't jerk people around if they don't have credit card processors. The charge back is a definitive solution. And so is the fear of charge back.

[aronhk_md]

Gotcha Steve. Sometimes on a flat screen its easy to miss the humour...lol. But really the chargeback...like legal action...is abused in our society. Seriously the idea of feedback on here is a good one. The plus is that if there is a dispute hopefully it can be addressed in such a way that the customer is satisfied, the vendor keeps his money and reputation, and the rest of us nod our heads.

[JEFFTATE]

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

If you have a problem with a vendor, please don't bug Larry. Call your credit card company. Long before message boards and the internet, credit card companies teamed up with the direct market association to establish a base time frame for sight unseen "mail order" transactions. It's called The 30 Day Rule. Google "FTC 30 day rule" for TONS of information or just click the link above.
Larry and pro-touring.com have NOTHING to do with the order process. Do you complain to the NFL if you drink a skunky beer while watching the Superbowl? Nope. It's between you, Circle K, and the King of Beers.



Agreed Steevo !

Where you been ???

[ErikLS2]

There are lots of great points on here and I'm proud of how everyone has managed to keep everything civil. Steve's (Twist Machine) point is the best solution I've heard. The Attorney General's office in the state of the vendor in question is another place people can go I believe.

I personally would rather PT not get involved in holding court over these issues. That's not what I look to them for. I can take care of myself in dealing with vendors.

They could though require all vendors to post all their policies on their home page on here before becoming a sponsor. Things like return policies, do they bill before the item ships, etc. Some might have them on their website but I know at least some do not and who wants to click through all that stuff looking for it if we could get it right here. Then, if a vendor deviates from their stated policy, a simple PM to a mod done in private is enough. The mod could then question the vendor about it.

The original post that started all this wasn't even a complaint about a vendor, just someone looking for advice with a problem they were having. Not much different than not getting brakes to bleed really. He wasn't looking to bad mouth the vendor. I think he's crazy for giving the guy more business, but that's just me.

If that still unnamed vendor would just pop in here and honestly state what happened, admit he took WAY too long to deliver the parts and offer a small concession to the customer he would be seen as a hero by most of us and get more business because of it. It's quite a skill to turn a disgruntled customer into a happy one but one that will keep you in business for a long time

[Steve Chryssos]

I like the idea of a feedback tool. I really do. Unfortunately, us humans are inherently less inclined to leave positive feedback than negative feedback. No news is good news. And by automating the feedback process, there is very little to keep the occasional flying koo-koo bird from leaving unjustified negative feedback for a great business. Lastly, bad vendors will send in ringers to post favorable feedback. You just know it'll happen. As someone who does backflips for his customers, I fear the rating system idea.

[Flash68]

I like the idea of a feedback tool. I really do. Unfortunately, us humans are inherently less inclined to leave positive feedback than negative feedback. No news is good news. And by automating the feedback process, there is very little to keep the occasional flying koo-koo bird from leaving unjustified negative feedback for a great business. Lastly, bad vendors will send in ringers to post favorable feedback. You just know it'll happen. As someone who does backflips for his customers, I fear the rating system idea.

Yep exactly why most feedback systems are not truly representative of reality. It's just the way it is.

[aronhk_md]

Steve....I know those are all possibilities. BUT, take a look at an example of how it can work. This is the Pontiac Business Entities Exchange on Performance Years forums. We have a pretty big member base, and if you notice MOST of the posts are actually positive. If you look there are usually 1-2 posts for each. And there ARE negative posts. There is feedback on sponsor/vendors, other members, and also ebay/online entities. I'd call it a success, but judge for yourself. One or two negative posts wont ruin a good vendor...as readers we can usually see through the nutcases (after all, as a nutcase myself I can easily recognize another one :D )

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=469

[1fastssnova]

I joined this forum last summer, and I just wanted to say it has been a fantastic resource of information. I have yet to properly introduce myself but I wanted to join in this discussion regarding vendor reputations. I too have had a few bad experiences with vendors / retailers (none I believe are registered here). It is true that most will go out of their way to let others know of a bad experience and seldom post a positive one. That being said I feel as though the response of a vendor to that member will say volumes of their professionalism and courtesy to customers. So even if the guy goes on some crazy rant about bad parts, bad business or bad service - seeing how the vendor handles it will give others a feeling of what it would be like to do business with them. Cause as we all know there are two sides to every story and the truth is somewhere in the middle - Just my opinion.

[critter]

here are two sides to every story and the truth is somewhere in the middle - Just my opinion.

Amen.

[neki67]

I know where this is going, rulled in fafour of the suporting and paying vendors!!!!!!!!!!!!................

However much I like this forum and however much I understand the predicament the admin and moderators are in, I have to agree with David. Specially since one of his replies has now been completely deleted!

I will stick around but I will not order from one of the supporting vendors without hesitation and doing some research first.

[andrewb70]

However much I like this forum and however much I understand the predicament the admin and moderators are in, I have to agree with David. Specially since one of his replies has now been completely deleted!

I will stick around but I will not order from one of the supporting vendors without hesitation and doing some research first.

Rene,

You can assume all you want, and I have no doubt that you believe there is some sort of conspiracy between the moderators and the vendors. David's post was hidden because it had little to contribute to the discussion at hand. You are the ultimate decision maker as to who you choose to give your business to.

I am glad that Steve jumped in here. The various options available to consumers are rarely utilized. As Steve pointed out, no business can operate for any length of time without credit card processing. The credit card companies have mechanisms in place to deal with vendors that take money and don't deliver products in a reasonable amount of time, as defined by the FTC guide lines.

I also mentioned Angie's list. However, as with anything else, people don't want to pay because they think they can get something for nothing. Angie's List has a section specifically for automotive businesses. They are funded by the customers, and all of the feedback is provided by other consumers. Any feedback forum that is provided will only be as valuable as the information that is contained therein. This information is full of potentially faulty information and can easily be abused. It would also require us moderators to somehow determine what is valid and invalid information. The whole process is utterly arbitrary and puts the moderators and the forum in the middle of the customer vendor relationship.

Andrew

[aronhk_md]

Rene,

I am glad that Steve jumped in here. The various options available to consumers are rarely utilized. As Steve pointed out, no business can operate for any length of time without credit card processing. The credit card companies have mechanisms in place to deal with vendors that take money and don't deliver products in a reasonable amount of time, as defined by the FTC guide lines.

I also mentioned Angie's list. However, as with anything else, people don't want to pay because they think they can get something for nothing. Angie's List has a section specifically for automotive businesses. They are funded by the customers, and all of the feedback is provided by other consumers. Any feedback forum that is provided will only be as valuable as the information that is contained therein. This information is full of potentially faulty information and can easily be abused. It would also require us moderators to somehow determine what is valid and invalid information. The whole process is utterly arbitrary and puts the moderators and the forum in the middle of the customer vendor relationship.

Andrew

Andrew...I'm glad Steve jumped in here as a vendor and an individual. I like him and respect him. That said though his option would hopefully be the LAST resort. Chargebacks are a horrible thing and encouraging people to do that as the first or sole solution to problems with a transaction is like taking a shotgun to kill a hummingbird. We as a forum CAN make it better for buyers AND potential buyers AND vendors too by having a feedback forum.

But I totally disagree with you that a feedback forum process is totally arbitrary, and while it can have faulty info and has the potential to be abused.............it generally is not. In practice if done right the moderators/website are NOT in the middle! Have you taken a look at the link to the PY forum I posted above? As stated I believe their example is a healthy, functional feedback forum. Its of benefit to all PY members who choose to use it, and I think its RARELY any problem for the moderators there. If you look.......they do NOT get in the middle of anything.

Please go take a look there, look at the rules............and then come back and tell me that you see evidence of the things you mentioned.

[andrewb70]

Andrew...I'm glad Steve jumped in here as a vendor and an individual. I like him and respect him. That said though his option would hopefully be the LAST resort. Chargebacks are a horrible thing and encouraging people to do that as the first or sole solution to problems with a transaction is like taking a shotgun to kill a hummingbird. We as a forum CAN make it better for buyers AND potential buyers AND vendors too by having a feedback forum.

But I totally disagree with you that a feedback forum process is totally arbitrary, and while it can have faulty info and has the potential to be abused.............it generally is not. In practice if done right the moderators/website are NOT in the middle! Have you taken a look at the link to the PY forum I posted above? As stated I believe their example is a healthy, functional feedback forum. Its of benefit to all PY members who choose to use it, and I think its RARELY any problem for the moderators there. If you look.......they do NOT get in the middle of anything.

Please go take a look there, look at the rules............and then come back and tell me that you see evidence of the things you mentioned.

I have seen the PY forum and it is all still under discussion.

Andrew

[aronhk_md]

I'm glad you looked, and also glad its still under discussion...but did you really see evidence of the abuse, faulty info, and moderators being in the middle? I'm not saying these things never happen, but its not the norm.

[novanutcase]

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

Thanks for the great link. Never knew that rule existed.

I understand your wanting to insulate the site from any involvement in what really is an issue between vendor and buyer. The one thing I will say is that the link you posted is to try and take care of the issue once it's already happened. In other words, being reactive to the issue. I think that the vendor rating system would be a more proactive approach to avoid getting into these sticky messes that happen between vendor and buyer. I think what most on here are looking for is more of a guideline as to who has a good rep in terms of keeping their word.

I realize that setting up a vendor rating system isn't just a flip of the switch but if the site does decide to do it I can say that it would be a great help to us all.

John

[neki67]

Rene,

You can assume all you want, and I have no doubt that you believe there is some sort of conspiracy between the moderators and the vendors. David's post was hidden because it had little to contribute to the discussion at hand. You are the ultimate decision maker as to who you choose to give your business to.

Andrew

Andrew,

I'm not assuming anything (positive or negative) nor am I a conspiracy theory believer. I do however believe I said I understand the predicament the administrators and moderators are in.

For someone I respected so far, I find it rather pathetic when you say "I have no doubt that you believe, etc". Is that xenophobia rearing it's ugly head or is it jumping into defense 'cause my comment hit target??

Fact is: David's reply wasn't edited/censored (as I thought would happen when I read it) but was completely deleted. Why not just take out the vendor names and let the members decide for themselves how valuable his comments/examples were/are? I don't see the same reaction when merit is given to any particular vendor.

All I said was that I will not place an order w/o doing some research first. And yes that will be despite all the praise that has been given to certain vendors. Is that too offense for your and/or this forum's taste? I for one like to question to come to a balanced conclusion. I'm not very good North Korean material if you catch my drift . . .

René

[Flash68]

delete

[scherp69]

Thanks for the great link. Never knew that rule existed.

I understand your wanting to insulate the site from any involvement in what really is an issue between vendor and buyer. The one thing I will say is that the link you posted is to try and take care of the issue once it's already happened. In other words, being reactive to the issue. I think that the vendor rating system would be a more proactive approach to avoid getting into these sticky messes that happen between vendor and buyer. I think what most on here are looking for is more of a guidline as to who has a good rep in terms of keeping their word.

I realize that setting up a vendor rating system isn't just a flip of the switch but if the site does decide to do it I can say that it would be a great help to us all.

John

Well put John. I agree completely and I think to this point, the mods and Larry have been doing a great job contacting any vendors that don't deliver. I know the site isn't responsible to ensure that buyers get their products, but in all honesty (and I know I'm not the only one), I never would have heard of many of the vendors had it not been for forums like this. People join the forum and see all the advertising and offers that the vendors have, but may hesitate as they have never heard of them. Yes most car guys would have heard of most of the manufacturers, but I know when I had joined, I had never heard of Prodigy, Musle Rodz, Driverz Inc, etc. But because of this site, I have bought from all 3. I don't know what the answer is, but good luck to Larry and the mods and hope they come up with something that will help 'guide' and take away the apprehension from buying from vendors that buyers may never have heard of.

On a side note, I'm also still waiting for parts from a vendor. I ordered parts 5 months ago and am still waiting. At this point, I'm not ready to name that vendor as I might (might not depending on if I ever get my parts) buy from them again. The worst part is, some of the parts have been in stock at Summit and Jegs the entire time. And before anyone asks...the parts were paid for 5 months ago, there have been several emails (some answered, some not) and phone calls (the vendor knew exactly why I was calling when I said who it was and I was told they would look into it). Most recently I was told 2 weeks ago they would look into and get back to me asap. I've sent 2 more emails since and have not heard back at all. For all I know my parts could show up Monday or another 5 months from now (I really hope not though). Is this something I would put in a vendor feedback...absolutely, but I would also put the good dealings I've had with this vendor.

I look forward to seeing what Larry and the mods come up with as this is a great site with a wealth of knowledge and of course, many great vendors that are willing to spend their time helping us out and giving us great deals.

[67jami]

Well put John. I agree completely and I think to this point, the mods and Larry have been doing a great job contacting any vendors that don't deliver. I know the site isn't responsible to ensure that buyers get their products, but in all honesty (and I know I'm not the only one), I never would have heard of many of the vendors had it not been for forums like this. People join the forum and see all the advertising and offers that the vendors have, but may hesitate as they have never heard of them. Yes most car guys would have heard of most of the manufacturers, but I know when I had joined, I had never heard of Prodigy, Musle Rodz, Driverz Inc, etc. But because of this site, I have bought from all 3. I don't know what the answer is, but good luck to Larry and the mods and hope they come up with something that will help 'guide' and take away the apprehension from buying from vendors that buyers may never have heard of.

On a side note, I'm also still waiting for parts from a vendor. I ordered parts 5 months ago and am still waiting. At this point, I'm not ready to name that vendor as I might (might not depending on if I ever get my parts) buy from them again. The worst part is, some of the parts have been in stock at Summit and Jegs the entire time. And before anyone asks...the parts were paid for 5 months ago, there have been several emails (some answered, some not) and phone calls (the vendor knew exactly why I was calling when I said who it was and I was told they would look into it). Most recently I was told 2 weeks ago they would look into and get back to me asap. I've sent 2 more emails since and have not heard back at all. For all I know my parts could show up Monday or another 5 months from now (I really hope not though). Is this something I would put in a vendor feedback...absolutely, but I would also put the good dealings I've had with this vendor.

I look forward to seeing what Larry and the mods come up with as this is a great site with a wealth of knowledge and of course, many great vendors that are willing to spend their time helping us out and giving us great deals.

I had a similar situation to Mike's with a vendor on another site. I posted similar to his problem but also needed help with technical issues so had questions as well. Forum members quickly responded with answers and told me the parts sold to me would not work even though the vendor said they would. Although I did not name the vendor he participated in the site. After months of run around and excuses the vendor contacted me and took care of the situation. This was a complete turn around from the arrogance and rudeness I had experienced for months prior to my post in the forum. Probably not a ground breaking news for many here but it opened my eyes. Mostly, I was dissapointed that I became an important customer only after the vendor became aware that I had some weight behind me in the form of respected members of the site (his potential customers). Once again, I didn't have to mention his name but my situation was so unique that he knew who I was.

Just wanted to jump in as Mike's post hit home with me. I have a lot of respect for this site, admin, mods and vendors. There is a wealth of info here that has been made available for free. Much of which is coming from the sponsoring vendors. I can only guess what the issues are in trying to set up something that is fair to all parties. But, there is a benefit.

Jami

[aronhk_md]

Mike....the hope with a forum section like this is that you can put the info out there, INCLUDING the name of the vendor and the details of the transaction. Then the vendor can respond and explain. All politely done preferably. The rest of us benefit because we decide whether we think the delay was reasonable or even unavoidable. And none of it precludes you from doing business with them again.

I'll say it again...there is nothing wrong with mentioning the name of a vendor and something that isnt flattering about the way they did business. Its not going to ruin their reputation. Unless it was something really bad it would take repeated episodes of poor customer service to make people stay away.

[Damn True]

Ok. We have a lot of good information here, and some valuable input from those who've participated in the thread from a genuine desire to improve the community. That said, the discussion has become circular. I'm shutting this down at this point. The moderators are going to work with Larry to come up with a solution. We don't have a time line for that solution as of right now. But we will let you guys know what we arrive at by reopening this thread and most likely creating an amendment to the PT.com rules.

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful contribution. It is appreciated.

[Damn True]

Restating the above. Also:

a) We appreciate the input each of you have provided on this issue. We are considering a number of possible options. Many of them are similar to what was suggested in the thread. Further, we are also consulting the site sponsors as well.

b) We shut the thread down because a few of the posts were getting rather heated and the discussion had become circular. We have input from the 4-5 people who seem to really have an interest in the topic and from those with more peripheral interest as well and we are considering those suggestions, consulting other resources and working toward a resolution that will be considerate of the concerns of ALL interested parties.

c) Let's please refrain from starting up new threads to further discuss the topic.

Again, thanks everyone for the thoughtful contribution. It is appreciated and I assure you that we are working on a resolution here.

[Damn True]

Ok folks. I am pleased to announce that after no small amount of deliberation, legal consultation & research on our part with other forums we have created and launched a member feedback forum here at PT.com. As stated in this thread and elsewhere this is does create a number of potential exposures for PT.com and it's ownership / staff that we believe to have mitigated. Further, we feel that we've created a feedback process that though not perfect offers the best compromise to suit the needs of the membership while protecting members, private sellers and vendors from unfair defamation.


1) The system will allow legitimate complaints to be made.


2) The system will allow fair rebuttal for the vendors / private sellers


3) The system will not allow for piling on or groupthink to unfairly defame either vendors or complainants.

4) The system will provide an easily searchable, concise database for people to use to make informed buying decisions.


In order to ensure the above w/o the need for constant monitoring of the various threads on our part, for which we simply don't have time, there is a simple, set of rules for posting in the feedback thread found here. Rules found in this post (https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?78767-Feedback-Read-before-posting)

The forum has been placed as a subforum within the "Marketplace". We feel that this is the most appropriate location for the topic. Over time we will prune and migrate appropriate threads spread over PT.com to this forum to enhance the quality of the database within the forum. Forum found here (https://www.pro-touring.com/forumdisplay.php?121-Feedback)