weird starter issue

[69camarokid]

my starter went from laways working immediatly to taking nearly 10 to 12 clicks to engage and start the car. This happened progressively over 6 months.

I pulled apart the starter and cleaned it. it didnt help. I bought and installed a new solenoid, it didnt help.

So i bought a brand new starter and installed it.... adni still have the same issue.

Any ideas? could it need shims or something... it doesnt screech or anything. hat else could cause a starter issue?

[6'9"Witha69]

Do you hear a clank? Like the pinion hitting the fleywheel? Or is it a dead feeling for a few clicks and then something happens? Could be a worn out contact in the lock cylinder, seen that before.

[Nessumsar]

I would check the lock cylinder, ignition switch, and ground on the starter/engine.

[69camarokid]

i can hear a solid click or clunking sound coming from the starter everytime i turn the key. Im pretty sure what i hear is the solenoid.

But for some reasons it ususally needs alot of attempts before it actually turns on the car. Sometimes it does it on the second or third try, sometimes the 10th.

This is really annoying me.
But i dont think its the lock cylinder or ignition switch as iver changed those out before and that issue sounded and acted different than this.

[Type73LT]

Does this happen when the engine is hot and you are trying to restart it or from a cold start?

Hot start your solenoid is over hot. You need a shield or remote solenoid to get the heat away.

Cold it may just be your battery, check the connections, grounds and have the battery tested. It may be old and losing some power.

[69camarokid]

This happens everytime, whether the car is hot or cold.

Also, im confused as to how the battery could be the issue. How could it not draw enough power for the first few clicks then suddenly have enough later to start the car.

Battery tested, 12.4 Volts

[69camarokid]

Its not even cranking when this happens. THE ONLY SOUND I HEAR IS THE SOLENOID CLICK.

[Nessumsar]

it has to be a wiring problem. Check both of your cable ends, and maybe ground the engine to the frame. It's not getting enough juice to work properly.

[taz]

Have you done a voltage drop test on battery ground cable and cable to starter . Is battery mounted in stock location or relocated .If trunk mounted you need several grounds . Try using a remote starter button and see if symptom is still present . If memory serves me correctly there is a fuseable link at starter may have high resistance causing issue . An ignition switch would not cause it to partially engage . Its either a ground positive battery cable or fuseable link or poor connection at starter . Also check how many amps starter is drawing if all else tests ok .
Tim

[justasquid]

Here is a link to some pretty good advice on starters. There is a section about a no crank situation with a few helpful tips and tests you can do. this page helped solved an issue I had with my wifes car, so I thought it may help you too.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/us1296.htm

[69camarokid]

got under the car. ive got a solid 12.4 volts at the starter so im not loosing power from the battery to starter.... But on the times it doesnt want to start i hear a solid clunk sound. Im not sure if thats the solenoid or what.

im gonna take a video and post it up

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/th_PICT0018-1.jpg (http://s66.photobucket.com/albums/h263/JTsPictures/?action=view&current=PICT0018.mp4)

[taz]

While some one else is turning ignition and see if it catches you said you bought a new starter but was it a cheap parts store rebuilt . Your schucks kragen type . They call it schucks auto parts because awe schucks i have to take this lifetime warranty garbage back for another once a year .
Tim

[69camarokid]

While some one else is turning ignition and see if it catches you said you bought a new starter but was it a cheap parts store rebuilt . Your schucks kragen type . They call it schucks auto parts because awe schucks i have to take this lifetime warranty garbage back for another once a year .
Tim

no its an all new starter. Not rebuilt or remanufactured.
PLus i had this issue with both the old starter adnd this new one.... so im thinking its something besides just the starter

[69camarokid]

just to double check i pulled the starter and bench tested it. i used jumper cables to attach the starter directly to the battery and it immediatly spin, so i know my starter is good.

This leads me to believe that more than likely my issue is the ignition switch or lock cylinder

someone had mentioned earlier about the pinion hitting the flywheel and making a clunk sound. I do get a loud clunk sound everytime it doesnt start. Is this in refernence to it needing a shim, like the starter motor sticks out to far and hits the flywheel instead of catching and turning it?

thanks

[69camarokid]

ok, so i tried a test i found online for my ignition switch. it stated that you turn on your lights and then attempt to start the car. If the lights dim then your ignition switch is good. If they lights do not dim, it is bad.
My lights dimmed....

Im getting a bit stumped... and annoyed. Im going to try throwing some shims in it tomorrow, but i dont see it making a difference.

any other ideas guys?

[taz]

Have you installed a remote starter switch or just take a old screw driver and jump the solenoid to post on starter . Basiclly bypass ignition switch . Didnt you say starter works sometimes and no unusual noises though .
Tim

[taz]

Is that a rattle noise from starter i hear when its running . The nose cone on lt1 starter like to break off over time have seen a few its a remote possibility but can you see any debris in bellhousing .

[taz]

take some grease dab it on the flywheel and look to see if and where its making contact . I could definately hear a rattle noise while it was running listened to your vid a couple of times sounds like something is making contact . You can shim it to move it down for proper mesh with flywheel .

[taz]

I have shopkey at home

[taz]

Hope some of this helps

[taz]

1996 Chevrolet Camaro (https://www.pro-touring.com/si/publications.do) | Camaro, Firebird VIN F Service Manual (https://www.pro-touring.com/si/showPubSection.do) | Engine (https://www.pro-touring.com/si/showPubSubsection.do) | Engine Electrical (https://www.pro-touring.com/si/showPubServiceInfoTypes.do) | Diagnostic Information and Procedures (https://www.pro-touring.com/si/showDocumentList.do) | Document ID: 18384
Starter Noise Diagnosis
Step
Action
Value(s)
Yes
No
DEFINITION: Noise occurs while cranking the engine.
1
Does the engine emit a high pitched whine during cranking but the engine cranks and fires OK?
--
Go to Step 2 (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/#S02)
Go to Step 3 (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/#S03)
2
Decrease the distance between the starter drive pinion and the flywheel.
Has the noise disappeared?
--
System OK
Go to Step 9 (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/#S09)
3
Does the engine emit a high pitched whine as the ignition key is being released, but the engine cranks and fires OK?
--
Go to Step 4 (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/#S04)
Go to Step 5 (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/#S05)
4
Increase the distance between the starter drive pinion and the flywheel.
Has the noise disappeared?
--
System OK
Go to Step 9 (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/#S09)
5
Does the engine make a loud whoop after the engine fires as the starter drive pinion is still engaged?
--
Go to Step 6 (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/#S06)
Go to Step 7 (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/#S07)
6
Repair or replace the starter drive.
Has the noise disappeared?
--
System OK
Go to Step 9 (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/#S09)
7
Does the engine rumble, growl or knock as the starter motor is coasting down to a stop after the engine is started?
--
Go to Step 8 (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/#S08)
Go to Step 9 (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/#S09)
8
Repair or replace the starter armature.
Has the noise disappeared?
--
System OK
Go to Step 9 (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/#S09)
9
Refer to Section 8A for a complete Engine Electrical diagnosis.
--
--
--

[taz]

Starter No Load Test
Caution: Keep fingers, tools, and any other objects away from the opening in the drive end housing while making electrical connections. The strong shifting action of the starter solenoid can cause severe personal injury or damage to components as the drive pinion moves into the cranking position.
Notice: Do not crank the starter motor for more than 30 seconds at a time. Cool for at least two minutes after cranking before continuing. Excessive cranking can cause serious damage to the starter motor as well as erroneous test results.
<LI type=1>Remove the starter motor. Refer to Starter Motor Replacement (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/cellHandler.do?cellId=37552&refDoc=42184&from=sm) . <LI type=1>Turn OFF the carbon pile.
https://www.pro-touring.com/image_en_us/gif/000/000/001/1052.gif
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/images/tif.gif (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showTif.do?image=1052)
<LI type=1>Make connections as shown with the switch open. <LI type=1>Close the switch. <LI type=1>Adjust the carbon pile in order to obtain 10 Volts. <LI type=1>Compare the readings of the current, the RPM, and the voltage. Refer to Starter Motor Usage (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/cellHandler.do?cellId=37553&refDoc=42184&from=sm) . <LI type=1>If the pinion does not shift into the cranking position or the pinion does not rotate, then turn OFF the switch immediately. Ensure that the test electrical connections were properly made. If so, then replace the starter motor.
If the starter motor energizes and the pinion rotates, then, while maintaining 10 Volts on the voltmeter, check the current draw on the ammeter and the pinion speed on the RPM indicator
• Turn OFF the switch.
• Compare the values to the starter specifications table. Refer to Starter Motor Usage (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/cellHandler.do?cellId=37553&refDoc=42184&from=sm) .
- If the current draw and the pinion speed (RPM) are within the specifications, then the starter motor is good.
- If the current draw or the pinion speed (RPM) is not within the specifications, then replace the starter motor. Refer to Starter Motor Replacement (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/cellHandler.do?cellId=37552&refDoc=42184&from=sm) .

[taz]

Starter Usage ///// It says in gm si starter was not designed to use shims but up to two shims may be used for excessive noise
Application
Description
No Load Test at 11.5 Volts
Starter Motor
PG-260
Current Draw (AMPS)
60-125
Pinion Speed (RPM)
2900-3400
Pinion Clearance
0.25 mm (0.01 in) - 4.06 (0.16 in)
Starter Solenoid Switch
Hold-in Windings
5-15 Amps
Both Windings
30-50 Amps

[6'9"Witha69]

just to double check i pulled the starter and bench tested it. i used jumper cables to attach the starter directly to the battery and it immediatly spin, so i know my starter is good.

This leads me to believe that more than likely my issue is the ignition switch or lock cylinder

someone had mentioned earlier about the pinion hitting the flywheel and making a clunk sound. I do get a loud clunk sound everytime it doesnt start. Is this in refernence to it needing a shim, like the starter motor sticks out to far and hits the flywheel instead of catching and turning it?

thanks
YES. It means the pinion is hitting the flywheel and not engaging the teeth. It needs to be shimmed down for consistent alignment/engagement.

[69camarokid]

YES. It means the pinion is hitting the flywheel and not engaging the teeth. It needs to be shimmed down for consistent alignment/engagement.


threw in the shims.... no change.

[Nessumsar]

If the starter was hitting the fly wheel and not engaging the teeth, you would be able to hear the starter motor wind down since the engine isn't running. Like: turn key, clunk, release key, wind down.

Im thinking you are hearing the solenoid clunking and and and then not having enough juice to spin the motor.

Im still thinking it is a wiring problem. Have you checked the end of your cables? Both positive and negative? Where do you have your negative ground cable attached to? On my Nova, I run a ground cable from one of the starter mounting bolts, to the engine, and from that same point to the battery. That way the starter is grounded to the engine, and the engine to the battery.

I also have had a terminal on my battery break. Happened on my Ranger, the actual terminal broke down inside the battery, sometimes it would make contact and sometime it wouldn't; took forever to figure that one out...

If all else fails, you could take the sheild off, and have some watch the starter when you key it on.

[taz]

And do a votage drop test on positive battery cable and negative cable . Then on wire from ignition switch to solenoid and then make sure everything is gounded properly . There is a acronym to keep you from overthinking things . K.I.S.S. Keep. it. simple. stupid .I use this acronym when i start overthinking things and go back to the basics.
Tim

[Type73LT]

How is the problem going?? You do have a heavy gauge ground wire from the engine to the frame and/or battery right. I agree with above me to have both.

[69camarokid]

i started school this last week and thus have been super busy and unable to check any of the wiring...

ill be checking it out this weekend and do a voltage and amperage drop test adn ill check corrosion on all the wires as well as check my grounds