Should I go OEM or A/M air conditioning?????

[SS1156]

I need some help here guys and gals. I am looking at purchasing a 2nd Gen Camaro and I definately want air conditioning in the car. I have narrowed it down to about 4 different cars. Some of the cars have all the correct a/c components and some do not. I know there are companies out there that can retro-fit a complete system that works great. My question is should I look for a car with the OEM working a/c or should I get the car that would need the complete aftermarket a/c system installed? Of course I would price the non a/c car cheaper to offset the price of having to install a/c in the car. Do the aftermarket a/c systems cool better because they are designed to work with the 134a vs retro-fitting an r12 system to 134a? I do like the clean firewall install of the aftermarket a/c vs that big box that the oem uses. Can you take a factory a/c car and pull out all that stuff and go with the a/m a/c? Sorry for all my questions but I just like to get educated before dumping a lot of my very hard earned money in to something. I like to ask questions from the people who are actually involved in doing it. Magazines are good reading but sometimes reality is left out. I really do appreciate everyones input.

[Josue]

After coming across numerous air conditioning threads and project threads where A/M A/C is installed, I've often wondered the same thing. Stands to reason, that if you had all the components of the factory A/C system, and they're all working and functional, it SHOULD work (after the 134a conversion of course, which isn't that hard), so is the want of the A/M A/C system based ONLY on the cleaner firewall look?

You're not alone SS! haha

[Modo Innovations]

My thoughts on this subject are as follows.
The factory systems are based on 30 to 40 year old technology. R-12 cools (IMO) way better than R134. Here in Texas, setting at a long red light or waiting on a train in a vehicle equipped with R12 you don't tend to notice a difference. The same vehicle with an R12 system charged with R134A there is a huge difference. You begin to ask yourself, did my a/c stop working?
The new aftermarket systems are based on newer technology and to work with R134A. They have more cooling capacity than the older systems to keep the charge cooler, which keeps you cooler. Another advantage is the cleaner underhood appearence. The only down fall that I can see with the aftermarket systems is if an older vehicle had no interior vent system then you would have to install vents. Now that I have typed the above statement... it's not against the system but the vehicle itself. Not that big of an issue to add vents, the owner can pick what he wants as far as vents and also the placement of the vents.
The aftermarket systems are all new and not that expensive compared to relacing older parts from and older sysem. Some of the older stuff may have to pieced together and some of it may not even be available anymore. You can save some weight by using the newer systems.

If it were me, it really wouldn't matter if the car had a/c or not unless you are doing a back to original restoration.

These are just my opinions. Frank from Prodigy Customs sells a ton of these aftermarket systems. He would be a good source to answer your questions.

[SS1156]

I thank you both for the advice and I will continue to keep up with this thread. I will explain my plans a little further. I am not going for the original restoration look. I want to build a Pro Tour car, if I wanted the all original look I would do a complete restoration on my Saleen (take off all the BBK stuff and put all OEM Ford stuff back on), but I want function over OEM look. If I get a car that has the original a/c there and it's working I think I will use it till it gives out. Modo, I am going to take out of what you were saying is that the newer systems work better because they are designed to work with the 134a which I agree with you on that. As far as routing vents and stuff, the only vent that would have to be added to a non-a/c car is the center and that requires the purchase of a new dash pad.

Now I just need to sell the Saleen so I can get my Camaro.

[vintageracer]

Aftermarket!

That's an easy decision.

Packaging, electric servo's for air flow control, a fan that blows air hard and a system that REALLY heats and cools great. If my car had factory A/C and I was building a PT car I would replace the factory A/C system with an aftermarket A/C & Heat system.

There is NOTHING good about the factory A/C system to give me reason to keep that system over a far superior performing aftermarket system!

[ProdigyCustoms]

Excellent job Shannon. The new systems will perform equal to or better then an original system that is COMPLETELY restored, Completely restored though includes resealing ever air door, every vent adapter, along with rebuilding all the vacuum pods, POA and Expansion Valves, replacing the dryer and compressor........... Cost wise it winds up very close to the same.

Another thing to consider is wind speed. As mammals we perspire and only mammals feel wind chill. So not only is important how cool the air is coming out of the vents, but it is also important how hard the air is blowing across our bodies. Exactly the reason you can run the thermostat 5 degrees higher while you sleep as long as you have a fan blowing on you. Even if the wife complains about it, LOL!

The other thing is the clean firewall and deletion of the big honkin box under the hood. that in its self is reason enough to replace the system.

For the second gens up to 1978 the kit includes everything including the controller that looks original and fits the original opening in the dash. Figure $1300 for a complete system.

[Josue]

Lots of good info here!

[Twentyover]

I might reccomend a deviation from the VA instructions, if that is the direction you end up heading (or even if you choose to use factory air)

The kit has you using the vents for the outboard outlets, Face level outlets are more effective providing cooling air to your face and torso. Even if one were not to put A/C in, I would reccomend considering using a gauge cluster mounted outlet or two to get the most air over you upper body.

The primary problem with R134a Conversions is the use of a TXV setting for R12, and inadequately sized cindenser.

In the early 90's, the only design changes (excluding hose & seal material and desiccant) the manufacturer I worked for made was adoption of a different superheat setting on the TXV and approximately 25% larger condenser. There was no significant degradation in performance when these two changes were made

[1bad78zam]

For me this is easy. I have a '78 "BLACK" t/a, and with the old factory air unit it is absolutely hotter than hades on the inside, even with the fan on high. I can't get my wife to go with me until the sun sets during the summer, it is so hot in there. Fall is coming though.:yeah:
I went original with this car because of the numbers matching, but when I am done with the '69 bird, the first thing on the agenda is to call Frank and get a VA headed this way for that hot sucker!!!

[Twentyover]

For me this is easy. I have a '78 "BLACK" t/a, and with the old factory air unit it is absolutely hotter than hades on the inside, even with the fan on high.....

If this is the case, there is a control issue that needs to be addressed.

[H2Ogbodies]

Hmmm....well I have done countless R134 retro-fits over the years and I have no reason to suggest an aftermarket AC system unless cleaning up the firewall is the end goal. Having said that though, I look at it not from a consumer side but from a technical side where I troubleshoot, fix replace and restore factory AC systems as just part of what I do when I build a car for somebody. R134 condensors are bigger yes but it is meant to help drop head pressure via the extra volume and since the method of heat transfer is through a mechanical fan, that was GM's best route. Now, enter the area of a super performance electric fan (such as a Mark VIII) it can move a tremendous amount of heat compared to a mech. fan so it helps to "level" the playing field-in other words, with a fan that moves so much air, you don't require a larger condensor anymore. Heat transfer is the key.

[Twentyover]

I didn't read the OP was planning on going to electric cooling. When we switched to 134a in the early 90s,the OEMS weren't exclusively electric, and weren't willing to pay the noise and mileage penalty w/mechanical fans to get adequate airflow over the condenser at idle. OEM electric cooling in the early eighties was also designed to cool the egine at idle, not to bring enough air across the condenser at high ambients, so we increased the size of the condenser to accomodate the need to dump the increased heat.

More sophisticated condenser designs have reduced the need size in recent years.
In the OP's case, Clearwater has a normal high of 91.5F in August. He can probbaly get away with an OEM condenser until he gets stuck in bad traffic if he stays mechanical.

I don't argue that the only reason to go aftermarket is to clear the firewall.

Again regardless of the what system the OP may choose, the early dash 2nd gens have terrible outboard outlet locations, aiming at your knees. Great if I want a cold kneecap, not so good if I'm interested in cooling my face, head, and upper torso.I added an outlet to the gauge cluster to get air on my chest. Not so pretty, but more functional.

[SS1156]

Ok it's time for an update. I think I have the Saleen sold and I found a 70 Camaro that I have fallen in love with. The car is a factory non-a/c car so a/m is my choice and honestly I would have done it on an a/c too. My question is how well does the install go? How well is the fit and finish? I would love to install a later model dash like a Firebird dash but I think that will have to come waaaayyyyy later due to costs. I am mechanically inclined so I think I could do it. I would just like to know how hard and if there are any tips you could share to ease the install. I was also wondering if theres a way that I could run the compressor on the right side of the motor? I can't afford one of those billet front drive systems, but I would like to put the alt on the left and the compressor on the right. I think it would be better to have less hose for the freon to travel in. I appreciate any advice guys.

Another thought. I wouldn't be opposed to moving the power steering reservoir as long as it didn't kill the bank account.

[ProdigyCustoms]

As for the install, it is a 20 hour job and requires only standard hand tools. The system for your 70 includes a new factory replacment controller. The hose all connect to the factory Astro vents and a new center vent is included.

For compressor mounting, We could set you up with the SD7 compressor in the kit at no extra charge, and then you could do the inexpensive March Mid Mount Kit which would give you a serpentine set up including all the pulleys and brackets and would put the compressor on the lower pass side of the engine. The entire bracket and pulley kit is only $700 and since your getting the compressor in the kit anyway, it is the perfect time.

Here is a link to the front drive

http://www.protouringsuperstore.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MP22072

[SS1156]

As for the install, it is a 20 hour job and requires only standard hand tools. The system for your 70 includes a new factory replacment controller. The hose all connect to the factory Astro vents and a new center vent is included.

For compressor mounting, We could set you up with the SD7 compressor in the kit at no extra charge, and then you could do the inexpensive March Mid Mount Kit which would give you a serpentine set up including all the pulleys and brackets and would put the compressor on the lower pass side of the engine. The entire bracket and pulley kit is only $700 and since your getting the compressor in the kit anyway, it is the perfect time.

Here is a link to the front drive

http://www.protouringsuperstore.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MP22072

That's awesome Frank. I will get with you as soon as all this HOPEFULLY goes through. I really love this Camaro.

[PT Sportwagon]

I am also considering going aftermarket A/C system. My Wagon has factory air and it is all there. I want to clean up under hood. getting rid ot the huge factory air box on the firewall and go with a smaller more efficant compressor.

Tim

[fatelvis]

A/M looks A WHOLE lot better, but as far as function and efficiency goes, Factory is much better. The heater will be enough but the A/C function has acombonation evaperator / heater core, thereby reducing the size of the unit( very nice) yet costs efficiency in terms of cooling capacity. I have a 49 chevy truck and a 69 camaro both with a/m systems ( 2 different companies) and both work very poorly. 134 a vs. r12, or any other type of gas has very little to do with the issue. The fact that the evaporator core is so small is the problem. If your conscern is packaging, go a/m, if its quality, go factory.

[dhutton]

A/M looks A WHOLE lot better, but as far as function and efficiency goes, Factory is much better. The heater will be enough but the A/C function has acombonation evaperator / heater core, thereby reducing the size of the unit( very nice) yet costs efficiency in terms of cooling capacity. I have a 49 chevy truck and a 69 camaro both with a/m systems ( 2 different companies) and both work very poorly. 134 a vs. r12, or any other type of gas has very little to do with the issue. The fact that the evaporator core is so small is the problem. If your conscern is packaging, go a/m, if its quality, go factory.

Not an expert but I think the Vintage Air Gen 4 overcomes the shortcomings of the small evaporator by running at a lower temperature, closer to freezing, combined with a higher speed fan. It uses a thermistor based control loop to allow it to safely run where conventional systems cannot. The Gen 4 VA system in my 69 Firebird keeps my car cool in 100 plus degree Texas summers to the point that my wife complains it is too cold.

[jerhofer]

[QUOTE=ProdigyCustoms;713886]As for the install, it is a 20 hour job and requires only standard hand tools. The system for your 70 includes a new factory replacment controller. The hose all connect to the factory Astro vents and a new center vent is included. QUOTE]

The center vent that came with my Vintage Air system was very cheap looking. Since my original dash pad was raising up on the pasenger side, I replaced it with a dash pad with the center factory AC vent. Costs more to do this but sure looks better and more like a factory install.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/111409dashfromleft2sm-1.jpg

www.jerryforthofer.wordpress.com

[Twentyover]

The center vent that came with my Vintage Air system was very cheap looking. Since my original dash pad was raising up on the pasenger side, I replaced it with a dash pad with the center factory AC vent. Costs more to do this but sure looks better and more like a factory install.


www.jerryforthofer.wordpress.com

I did essentially the same thing, and, using a Covan's dash insert, added a driver's outboard vent in place of the headlight/wiper switch. This replaced the 'knee cooling' stock driver's outboard vent, which still acts as a non-power fresh air vent

[MonzaRacer]

OK now as for the aftermarket being better, thats is a load of crap, period. As for better packaging, sure, but I can tell you I have retrofitted and modified many of the stock systems and when you have a stock setup converted and it blow 38 degrees F, I can say that most people give up rather than learn what makes an R134A system work efficiently.
R134A does cool fine in hot weather if its properly setup, if its not working well enough an fixed orifice tube simply use an automatic adjusting orifice tube. There are also models for higher ambient heat areas like southern states.
People keep stating opinions about things over facts. Stock, converted systems, PROPERLY CONVERTED, are as efficient or actually more efficient as aftermarket and OEM systems.
Remember the conversions are engineered to fix/adapt onto/into the system and make them work.
I have converted so many R12 setups and had many still work even after many years, heck I have several that have held charge for over 5 years before needing any recharging AND many only required a few ounces to restore the operation.
If your not looking for cleaning up the engine compartment, proper conversion will give you a cold operation at a much more reasonable price.
I have converted many of the older POA/STV systems to AAOT setups and with great success.
Just because its old or stock doesnt make it bad or useless.

[jaybee]

Lee, can you think of any cars that have a reasonably compact factory Heat/AC unit which doesn't have a bump out to the underhood area? My car, a '57 Chevy didn't come with factory air so there's nothing to convert. I pulled the unit out of a Lumina but it was ENORMOUS, far too deep to fit under the dash.

[Twentyover]

Lee, can you think of any cars that have a reasonably compact factory Heat/AC unit which doesn't have a bump out to the underhood area? My car, a '57 Chevy didn't come with factory air so there's nothing to convert. I pulled the unit out of a Lumina but it was ENORMOUS, far too deep to fit under the dash.

Might want to look at a Jeep JK.IIRC 2009 and prior were cable control. Don't be afraid to cut pieces apart and fiberglass them back togrether toget a better fit

[jaybee]

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll definately have a look at it. Jeeps have relatively small interior volume but a lot of greenhouse with the hardtop on so it could be a good match. Good tip to rearrange the parts with fiberglass. I'd do that with the Lumina unit but it's 18" deep and I haven't been able to figure out how to get it under the dash of a 50s car. It worked great in the original car even after conversion to R134 so it'd be slick were it not so big.

I'd love to go aftermarket and there are companies in the AC market that have great products, but the budget just isn't there to do that with everything for my garage build. I need to put the bulk of my money where I really want it (good, streetable suspension and brakes for example) and boneyard or home build where possible. I actually prefer that approach anyway.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Monza, I agree a original system CAN be restored and blow cold. We just did a concourse resto on a number matching 68 RS / SS 396 car with factory A/C and had no choice but to restore the original A/C. this was a complete system already holding pressure and blowing cool. $1000 in parts and 30 + hours of labor later, yep, works awesome.

The problem with restoring a original system is finding all the seals and parts (we have them), the cost and time of resealing ever air door, every vent adapter, replacing every vacuum pod, every relay, every wire, changing POA and Expansion Valves, replacing the dryer, compressor, Flushing a combing condenser, flushing and pressure testing evaporator, resealing the suitcase, it is a ton of work and at the end of the day will not have the wind speed of the new Gen IV system. And I cannot preach the importance of wind speed enough. I was drag racing this past weekend yesterday and it was 58 degrees.......with a 20MPH wind, froze my ass off!

And when restoring the original system I can promise that every part you DO NOT replace, especially the deepest buried most difficult to get to parts (and some are a PIA to get to), WILL go bad after the car is finished. It is Murhpy's law.

So if your doing a Pro Touring car, it is a no brainer. Cosmetics aside.

[jaybee]

Respectfully, Frank, you're absolutely correct for those who can afford a car on the high level that you produce. For those of us who can't it amounts to never having that cool old car to drive. In that case someone else said it best;

"Im sure in 1985 Plutonium is available at every corner drugstore, but here it's hard to come by."--Doc Brown

[Twentyover]

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll definately have a look at it. Jeeps have relatively small interior volume but a lot of greenhouse with the hardtop on so it could be a good match. Good tip to rearrange the parts with fiberglass. I'd do that with the Lumina unit but it's 18" deep and I haven't been able to figure out how to get it under the dash of a 50s car. It worked great in the original car even after conversion to R134 so it'd be slick were it not so big....

Don't underestimate the capacity of the JK unit. It shares heat exchangers with larger cars. Slightly different plumbing, but the same exchangers and blower.