Lingenfelter Builds Another T/A

[72ratnova]

i really like the red on these cars, better than the white
http://www.lsxtv.com/forum/lingenfelter-builds-another-t-2788.html

[ArtosDracon]

One of the better firebird conversions I've seen actually.

[79PonchoUK]

Personally, I hate that front end.

[68Formula]

I like it, except for the bird on the hood is weird.

[srh3trinity]

I like the wheels, are those available to purchase??

[John Wright]

Personally, I hate that front end.Yeah, the grill/headlights is kinda funky....does it really need to be in-set that much? Maybe if it was shallower it would look better...I dunno, the front end styling doesn't work for some reason

[BobB66SS]

I still don't understand why they're putting a second gen nose on these. Looks out of place on a body modeled after a first gen.

[tazzz25906112]

HRE did the wheels I believe..... There is/was a company out of the mid west that was doing a GTO with Wagner (designer of the GTO for Pontiac) and HRE did the wheels for them.... These wheels reflect such a close resemblance that I'd be shocked to discover otherwise....

[twosaturns]

I still don't understand why they're putting a second gen nose on these. Looks out of place on a body modeled after a first gen.
I don't understand why they are building them at all; they are trying to take the swoopy profile of the original and put it on a boxy, federally mandated safety cage of a modern car. seriously cartoonish looking.

[critter]

HRE did build the wheels for the Wanger's car. That company has tanked. Those HRE wheels drew a lot of interest until people saw the price tag. Sticker shock stopped most people.

[hdesign]

Actually, I designed the wheels for the Wanger's GTO and the car itself. HRE did cut the wheels I designed. The wheels on the Lingenfelter car are not the wheels I designed. Both are obviously based on the original Pontiac rally wheels.

Big 3 Performance is (at the moment) not out of business yet but it's unfortunately looking that way. The new owner of Big 3 and Jim Wangers are battling over a bunch of details. I hope they can pull things together and move forward. I hate to see a great car go to waste because of personality conflicts. The founder and former owner of Big 3 and I speak regularly.

I think as far as fit and finish, the Lingenfelter car is excellent. The white car was great and I loved the throwback interior they did. The hood graphic has to be different from the original hood bird due to trademarks.


On a side note and I apologize for the shameless hijack: I'm currently partnering with the the team at Restore A Muscle Car ( a brand new PT.com sponsor) to develop a Firebird inspired conversion package for the 5th Gen Camaro. These are REAL Pontiac guys who specialize in Firebirds and are responsible for the annual Bandit Run.

Here's a teaser rendering of the direction we're going in. We're later to the game than most because we've put a ton of thought and research into the project and we wanted to do everything humanly possible to create a car that isn't just a rebadged, plastic-cladded Camaro with a split grill. The modeling is pretty far along at this point and some parts are being laid up in F.glass this week.

All feedback welcome, I'd love to hear what the die-hard Pontiac fans say as they are the toughest crowd to please as we've discovered.

We'll be doing a press release in the next few days. Stay tuned.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/06/banshee_teaser1-1.jpg

[srh3trinity]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/06/banshee_teaser1-1.jpg

Now that looks nice. It fits more with the lines of the car than the second gen styled nose does.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

god that BIRD is fuggin awful!!

[wmhjr]

HRE did the wheels I believe..... There is/was a company out of the mid west that was doing a GTO with Wagner (designer of the GTO for Pontiac) and HRE did the wheels for them.... These wheels reflect such a close resemblance that I'd be shocked to discover otherwise....

One correction (as I'm a Pontiac guy...)

Wangers is NOT the "designer of the GTO". Jim Wangers was the Chief Marketing Manager for Pontiac back in the '60s and was responsible for the promotion of the car. He was - and is - influential in the GTO circles. However, the design of the car was a combination of John De Lorean, Russel Gee and Bill Collins - with most people saying that De Lorean was the real mover and shaker. Wangers has some pretty strong opinions, and recently published some stuff not very friendly to Pontiac management following the '60s. Lots of people are under a mistaken impression that Wangers was an engineer or a designer because he is so prominent in the promotion of the car - and because he has remained so involved over the years.

I actually don't mind the front end of the Lingenfelter conversion but I don't like the back end. I frankly feel the same way about your design, Ben. Neither of them are throwbacks to a 1st gen. They're both to me 2nd gen kinds of looks, and I'm partial to the front end of the '70 TA. I can't put my finger on what the "right" back end would be, but neither option really turns me on yet. I'm also still hating the dash that Lingenfelter has - it's essentially a factory look from the new Camaro, which I cannot state strongly enough how much I don't like it.

[critter]

Maybe Big3 hasn't tanked but the Pontiac press reported it that way in the last issue of High Performance Pontiac. Just saying 'cause I made that statement.

[hdesign]

We really wanted to avoid doing a car inspired by a specific year or something that was so obviously retro. Where do you go after you've gone retro? The next year newer than that?

What would a 2011 Firebird look like if the tables were turned and Chevy was dissolved? How would GM have styled it? We started with the main body mass, quarters, doors and fenders. Everything else was a clean slate.

I personally like a 70-73 the best but everyone likes different generations and years within that generation. We watched about 25 online forums and exhausted all efforts to get find a balance of what people liked and what they hated about other conversion packages.

There's 4 other conversion packages we're aware of that exist or are heading to market. All 4 are based on some variation of a 2nd gen. In contrast,the headlight/grill and shaker scoop are the only elements that are connected to a 2nd gen on our car. And even those elements aren't like someone snagged a nose off a 70 or a 77 and forced it onto the 2010 body, added a 10" tall wing or mudded in Aston Martin tail lights that don't fit. There's styling elements inspired by all generations but they're incorporated as modern design touches.

Then we took into account what parts we could produce or modify within a realistic pricing boundary that retains a factory warranty on this model. You'll notice that there's no plastic kit looking garbage hanging off of it. We actually carved a "Firebird" out of the Camaro.

If all goes well, we're already planning on a upper-level super car that is truly Pontiac big block powered, minus the factory warranty. It's a trade off, an affordable package with a warranty vs. ideal powertrain and voided warranty.

[Magntik]

I saw this "Firebird" at the Newton Ia Power Tour stop. The hood was up and a ton of people were standing around it. Made it hard to get pictures but I managed a few.

The guy who was either the owner or driver was telling a pretty good story on how its one of only a couple and the "huge" amount of money it costs. But it's worth it to be one of the first.

I was trying to look the car over without laughing at this guy.

In person it does look like the fit and finish is damn good. Paint is good, panel alignment is good. Yeah the hood decal is goofy, but I understand the trademark thing, guess I would have left it off.
It's pretty obvious what the car represents, and if you don't know I don't think the goofy hood decal is going to give you a clue.

It didn't look to me like the one I saw had any changes made to the interior or dash like some of the other ones. But there were a lot of people and I didn't go compare it to the loads of '10 Camaros that were there.

[BuddyP]

Kinda neat, but never got into Fake brandings. Kit Lambo's and Ferrari's are even worse.

Was working on site at a place right across the street from Lingenfelter last summer... Whatever they kept pounding on the dyno with sounded pretty sweet.

[wmhjr]

I personally like a 70-73 the best but everyone likes different generations and years within that generation. We watched about 25 online forums and exhausted all efforts to get find a balance of what people liked and what they hated about other conversion packages.

I completely agree with you. Even if you stuck with the newer 2nd gen look like in your rendering (which I also like, btw) here's a thought for the back end. Take a look at the Lingenfelter design for the back. But, slim it down a little more like you did with yours - except somehow retain the outer radius edges of the lights. The Lingenfelter design to me is a little too "tall" and "blocky". Yours is a little too "flat" and doesn't remind me of anything Pontiac except maybe for a STE6000 :) (Sorry)




If all goes well, we're already planning on a upper-level super car that is truly Pontiac big block powered, minus the factory warranty. It's a trade off, an affordable package with a warranty vs. ideal powertrain and voided warranty.

MR1 or IA2 block? (BTW, you mean "standard" block, right?)

[hdesign]

The tail lights are actually a hybrid of 4th gen and 1st gen and need to fit the tall/blocky form factors inherent to the Camaro proportions. We can't just make 2 slashes on each side like a first gen, they'll get lost and make the rear end look gigantic. We also have the constraint of working within the rear fascia only, no mods to the quarter or trunklid....less cost, less to screw up or potentially create water leaks. Besides, we want too distinguish the car from the rest of the pack.

It's a red Lexan lens with an applied honeycomb blackout effect that covers the center tail panel as well. Behind the lens are a stacked pair of 10-12" wide LED linear arrays. Lighting all around the car is based on the technology you see on Euro cars like Porsche and Audi.

As far as the engine, it's early in the discussion and we're still making up a wish list and talking to potential vendors that want to get involved. I was referring more to the moniker of marketing as the legendary 455 BBP, something recognizable to Pontiac fans. The MR1(A) and the IA II are definitely on the table but we need to nail this car before moving to that one. We may do a lower budget TT 6cyl car also if the market is there. We'll see.

[critter]

Picking nits here, I know, but there is no "big block" Pontiac. All traditional Pontiac blocks have roughly the same external dimensions. The different displacements were achieved via bore and stroke changes.

[hdesign]

Thanks for the clarification. Big Inch Pontiac then.

[critter]

LOL. Yep, that will work. :)

[wmhjr]

Picking nits here, I know, but there is no "big block" Pontiac. All traditional Pontiac blocks have roughly the same external dimensions. The different displacements were achieved via bore and stroke changes.

Yup, therein the "Standard Block" reference.....

Us Pontiac guys cringe every time we here the countless question - "Is that a Pontiac Big Block in there buddy?" or "Yeah, back in (fill in the blank) I had a 6x GTO with a big block"....

It's also how we poncho guys get hammered by the NHRA..... That's another story.

[wmhjr]

The tail lights are actually a hybrid of 4th gen and 1st gen and need to fit the tall/blocky form factors inherent to the Camaro proportions. We can't just make 2 slashes on each side like a first gen, they'll get lost and make the rear end look gigantic. We also have the constraint of working within the rear fascia only, no mods to the quarter or trunklid....less cost, less to screw up or potentially create water leaks. Besides, we want too distinguish the car from the rest of the pack.

It's a red Lexan lens with an applied honeycomb blackout effect that covers the center tail panel as well. Behind the lens are a stacked pair of 10-12" wide LED linear arrays. Lighting all around the car is based on the technology you see on Euro cars like Porsche and Audi.

As far as the engine, it's early in the discussion and we're still making up a wish list and talking to potential vendors that want to get involved. I was referring more to the moniker of marketing as the legendary 455 BBP, something recognizable to Pontiac fans. The MR1(A) and the IA II are definitely on the table but we need to nail this car before moving to that one. We may do a lower budget TT 6cyl car also if the market is there. We'll see.

Gotcha Ben. I understand about the rear quarters. I was actually thinking it would be interesting to radius the top of each quarter to kind of pay homage to the 2nd gens - which would also solve the tail light issue. Based on that, I'm not sure what the right look for the back would be...

For the motor, if you think you'll ever drop an MR1 or IA block in, you need to think about hood clearance. With either of those you're probably looking at a tall deck and then figuring out the heads and intake (which would likely be victor kind of height). It gets problematic quick. You also need to consider that it's been a while since standard blocks other than the MR or IA were cast. I would also consider sticking with a 400 rather than a 455 block only for the fact that the 400 is a small journal (3") rather than the large journal (3.25") 455. Better for the bearings on the kind of car you're talking about.

[Ishmael]

Ben, I like the idea of paying homage without trying to be just like it. The new camaro looks squashed compared to the original and blocky so trying to tack on a 70s nose couldn't achieve the right proportions. Firebirds were sleek and curvy. The camaro may be curvy but it just seems really tall. Keep doing things that are "firebird-ish" without trying to replicate anything specific and for the love of all things holy don't do a bright blue vinyl interior like the lingenfelter that was at autorama. That was cheezy. Good luck.

[hdesign]

That was a cool aspect about the Lingenfelter car, I believe they threw caution to the wind, ignored the warranty restrictions and went with a custom Aluminum 455 with LS7 heads or something. I remember seeing 650 hp somewhere but I'm not sure. It's cool to have a real Pontiac engine but it's not like it was some super exotic, insane hp, super car. You could get close to that with an LS9 but I don't know what the cost difference would be or what the fitment issues are. I guess they just wanted to be able to say that it's Pontiac powered. How important is that? We'll find out....

Hypothetically speaking, if the development/sales of the mid-range Banshee works out, a very limited production Banshee XD (Extreme Duty) is going to be a no-holds-barred, streetable race car. We're definitely looking at attainable hp figures that exceed numbers that have been claimed by others. It all depends on what buyers will pay.

[dunnjun]

I like the front of your design Ben, but the back needs to be modernized also. The best Pontiac conversion of the new Camaro I've seen is the '78 Bandit redo.

[Roadrage David]

That was a cool aspect about the Lingenfelter car, I believe they threw caution to the wind, ignored the warranty restrictions and went with a custom Aluminum 455 with LS7 heads or something. I remember seeing 650 hp somewhere but I'm not sure. It's cool to have a real Pontiac engine but it's not like it was some super exotic, insane hp, super car. what do you mean by that??....................

[hdesign]

I like the front of your design Ben, but the back needs to be modernized also. The best Pontiac conversion of the new Camaro I've seen is the '78 Bandit redo.

Glad you like the front end, we're still refining it as the surfaces, proportions and subtle transitions are proving to be quite a challenge. Honestly, we feel the rear styling is very strong, well proportioned and incorporates just enough modern details. We nailed that down much quicker than the front. How modern do you think it should be? It still has to fit with the rest of the car or it looks unbalanced.

I wouldn't really classify the Morgan/Bandit car as modern. It's more of a tribute to a 77-78...we wanted to avoid that. We just have a different plan. Year specific (retro) designs have a tendency to limit your market to enthusiast groups of their respective years. Most people classify the new Camaro as a 69 look-alike. The only thing on it that refers to a 69 is the quarter gills. It looks more like a 67/68 with 70-73 configured tail lights and the angularity of 3rd gen cars. So there are styling elements from multiple generations on that car, we're doing a similar thing with the Banshee.

To appeal to the retro-fans, we've created some special edition paint schemes and wheel packages that are more heritage based. Among these are some of the more popular graphics like a "Platinum Bandit" package (Exclusive Restore a Muscle Car package for 2nd gen cars).

Thanks for the comments.


what do you mean by that??....................

What do you need clarification on?