Need Some Front End Help

[AintQik]

67 Camaro, stock subframe, Global upper and lowers, coil overs, Global West 2" drop spindal, Wilwood dyna brakes.

I'm going to try and get some pics but the car is almost 2 hours away right now.

I'm having fitment issues. I verified the wheels were right with Frank at Prodigy. When turning both wheels will hit the rear of the fenders.

After staring at it for hours, it looks like the wheel is set too far back in the wheel well. Maybe an inch or more.

Before I built the car I went over the subframe and there was no signs of damage. This was confirmed by my body guy and during assembly. Everything lined up right no isses. No changes to the factory mount points of the control arms.

Global West control arms, I verified I installed them right, been doing this 15 years, but you never know. Had a shop take a look and verified the front end is in fact installed correctly and all looks well. He has been buillding 1st gens since 86. Verified they were the "correct" p/n for the car.

Global West drop spindals. No part number but they fit so I had assumed they were right. Came in the "correct" box for the car directly from Global with the other stuff.

Wilwood Dyna brakes. No issue other than slightly widening the track by 1/8th. Made up for in the wheel selection and construction. 4.75bs. 18x8.

I talked to Global and they don't know why it does not fit. The shop that fit my fenders said they had a 69 in one time with Global parts and it was the same way. To fix it they changed spindals, moved and offset tie rods and re-hooped wheels. Owner's preference, shop did not want to band aid fix. Of course Global wants pictures and I don't blame them and measurements which I am providing, but I can see from other cars in the shop the axle is about an inch too far back. I'm at a loss.

I don't have enough money (military) to just scrap the front end and start over. All this stuff is brand new and I'm not knocking Global just trying to figure out the best and cheapest way to a solution. I've come so far on this thing I've got no worries I can fix it but if I have to spend a ton of money it is going to hurt bad. I'm pretty bummed but its hot rodding. Any suggestions you guys can give, or experience would really help. Local Camaro guy who has been doing restoration and speed shop stuff for 30+ years is stumped as well. Before I go throwing money at it, I was hoping somebody had some better idea.

Body guy called and said if the wheel was centered in the wheel well it would clear everything . Well, now how do I go about that? lol

[John Wright]

How much caster do you have in the alignment?

[LS1NOVA]

Suspension alignment done with full weight on the front? Caster too high?

[Gitter Dun]

I also have a stock subframe on my '69 and am running 17x9.5 with 275/40's up front, 5.5" back space. My tire diameter is 25.6 and I had to roll the fender lip and cut out the rear and front portion of my wheel wells to be able to fit them. Are you hitting fender or wheel well?

[AintQik]

Caster around 5* Alignment guy says, "no way". No matter what he does its not going to work.
Hitting the fender
Tire is a 245 (45 it think) 18 4.75" BS. Prodigy says this combo "should" work and he has done it on a ton of cars.
Almost full weight, I was holding off until it was done but when I saw there was no way it was going to work I threw an alignment at it to see if it got any closer. Not much.

[AintQik]

Couple of side shots I found. Wheel looks too far back no?

[John Wright]

It really looks like a castor deal...not sure about 1st gens, but with 2nd gens the closer you get to 5° or more, the more it has a tendancy to rub the rear of the innerliner just like that.....imagine if you will the top ball joint being leaned way back towards the firewall, it is going to get the tire closer and closer...

Now I think there are some lower control arms that may help move the tire forward to help center it and still keep the caster.

[AintQik]

The alignment guy said this:

"It is a caster issue but there is no room for any more it would have to be neg caster and never steer right, the rt rear stud for caster shims has been cut off for the headers and you cant put in any more shims if you could you would need about 1 inch of shims. I think the upper control arms are wrong and already have too much caster in them."

So, I dunno.

[Ron.in.SoCal]

I'm a million miles a way, and far from an expert, but assuming your clip is installed correctly and square then it can only be a damaged clip in which case you could test this by re-installing your front suspension on another clip, or it's a control arm/spindle issue in which case GW should help you through it.

Keep us posted. There's gotta be a simple cause. The solution might not be so simple....

[ProdigyCustoms]

Your tires are SUPPOSED to be 245/40/18 not 245/45/18. Need to verify this. They look like 40s, not 45s

It does have to much caster. You may be able to wiggle the entire subframe forward . There are 5/8" alighnment holes under the firewall. Make sure the frame is not jammed back to far.

If you could wiggle the front subframe forward it would help with the problem.

Hotchkis makes their control arms geomtery corrected so that when you add caster, and move the upper ball joint back, the lower ball joint is moved forward so the wheel stays more centered while adding caster.

[AintQik]

The tires are probably 40s my head hurts.

The subframe can't come forward anymore and the bushings are aluminum, stock height body mounts just for the record.

These are Global West which I assume are the same? Nothing has been hit and I had stock suspension on this car and subframe with no issues. Well the tires were not 18s but you get the point. Keep em coming guys I appreciate the help and I'm trying everything you throw at me.

Like the alignment guy said to get it to clear I would have to have over an inch of spacer behind the arm. That can't be right.

[MrQuick]

weren't you having issues with the sway bar not fitting right?

Before the advent of built in caster control arms we moved the sub frame forward 1 1/2"

I thought the GW arms moved the bottom of the spindle forward? Lets see these arms.

Vince

[AintQik]

Yes, that was due to the mounting plate being welded in wrong, which led me to immediately suspect the control arms being goofed up after I confirmed my wheel specs. Maybe it slipped in the jig? Do they even use a jig? I dunno. Global has been very cool and its hard to help without touching the car and I'm sure dingbats from all over the world screw stuff up and blame them. I'd actually love this to be an error on my part. But, I've been doing this a bit and so far I can't find a simple solution.

I know we keep talking about the subframe but I can assure you its in the right spot and not damaged. If I move it, it will jack up the body lines and definetly not be where it was when I took it apart. So, I would be messin round with a known good to make some suspension parts fit and work. That doesn't jive in my head but I am keeping an open mind and seriously listening to all the suggestions.

I know these pics stink, but its all I have at the moment. I pray somebody says, "hey idiot the arm is on back wards". Lol.

[MrQuick]

Hey RJ, did you buy them arms from GW or Ebay. There are a bunch of over seas copies out there and I hope you didn't get taken. That lower are looks hinky.

Can you get me a close up of that upper arm cross shaft?
Vince

[AintQik]

I bought them direct from Global West, not even a middle man. I can try to get some better pics up but the car is not near me at the moment. It should be home next week. I bought the whole front end as a package so I wouldn't run into any issues LOL!!!!!

[CamaroAJ]

my '67 did the same thing. i had DSE control arms. my sub frame was as far forward as i could get it and hit in the same place yours does. IIRC i had 6* camber in it to help but it would still hit. i sold the car before i got it fixed though.

[AintQik]

BAH! So close! Well, we are getting somewhere I guess.

Did I buy your car? :)

Do you know who bought it? I'd be curious to know what he did.

[John Wright]

my '67 did the same thing. i had DSE control arms. my sub frame was as far forward as i could get it and hit in the same place yours does. IIRC i had 6* caster in it to help but it would still hit. i sold the car before i got it fixed though.
Fixed it for ya.....LOL

[MrQuick]

my '67 did the same thing. i had DSE control arms. my sub frame was as far forward as i could get it and hit in the same place yours does. IIRC i had 6* camber in it to help but it would still hit. i sold the car before i got it fixed though.
which way...i can picture it... lol

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[John Wright]

Now ^^^^that^^^^has some camber issues

[Ron.in.SoCal]

RJ - Whats the latest?

[AintQik]

Global is reviewing data and trying to come up with a plan. I went and found a bone stock 67 and my wheel is sitting at least 2" back in the wheel well which we all kinda know. The question is how to fix that when it seems when its aligned where is "should" be its still way off. I personally feel dorking with stuff to make this work is not the right answer. Obviously something in there is wrong and that needs to be corrected. Just can't find out what yet and I don't have enough money to just go buying a new set of control arms. If Global leaves me hangin, which I doubt they will, I will start asking for some comparitive data from others with this set up and see where I'm off.

[Rod]

I have had several camaros come into the shop with what sounds like the same complainant.
It is hard to diagnose for a 1000 miles away and from some pictures so I hope this helps, and keep us informed

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/05/100_3663-1.jpg

[AintQik]

Thanks Rod.

So, for a little of my own information, on the 1st Gens, the aftermarket suspension companys build camber into the parts to correct for poor factory set-ups? So, what I have is probably "right", but on this particular car its too much? The bolt is not so much the problem, it hits the fender, not the well, the fender, so I'm going to need to get the wheel more centered somehow.

[MrQuick]

After market arms that are advertise with additional built in caster should have the lower control arm ball joint boss further forward than a stock unit. However, they may have done it with the upper and left the lower alone. Which would explain your condition. 4.5* degrees on a stock arm set up would normally put you into the rear well as Rod illustrated.

Have you asked the GW guys about this? They have excellent customer service.

Vince

[AintQik]

Yes Vince and they are stumped. Like everyone else it took me a while to convince them everything was ok on my end. Now they are trying to figure out what I shoudl try.


After market arms that advertise with additional built in caster should have the lower control arm ball joint boss further forward than a stock unit. However, they may have done it with the upper and left the lower alone. Which would explain your condition. 4.5* degrees on a stock arm set up would normally put you into the rear well as Rod illustrated.

Have you asked the GW guys about this? They have excellent customer service.

Vince

[AintQik]

The GlLobal guy and I were staring at pictures scratching our heads when I said, another thing that stinks is those big block springs are bottomed out and I can't get it to go any lower, even if we get it to steer I'll have to change those. Then he said the spring should ride half way up the shock body which its not even close. So, we are thinking the wrong spring is in there and I will remove one and check the length and part number. How that is going to affect the front to back I don't know but at least its something.

[MrQuick]

The GlLobal guy and I were staring at pictures scratching our heads when I said, another thing that stinks is those big block springs are bottomed out and I can't get it to go any lower, even if we get it to steer I'll have to change those. Then he said the spring should ride half way up the shock body which its not even close. So, we are thinking the wrong spring is in there and I will remove one and check the length and part number. How that is going to affect the front to back I don't know but at least its something.

It shouldn't effect it. Camber change would be greater than caster with ride height.

Did you ask if they could exchange the arms? Or maybe send you another set to match with?

i know you checked but for sits and giggles, lets get some readings.

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=38104&d=1273522673


Vince

[AintQik]

They are not ready to give me any parts at this time. I guess I need to just do what they say to include checking the front springs. I'm with ya, I don't think we are going to get there from here but I'll do what they ask.

I'm starting to get really bummed.

[MrQuick]

thats ok, you never know till you ask.

don't freak out, im sure we'll find something.

[John Wright]

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=38104&d=1273522673


VinceI hate it when they mix dimensions....they should all be center to center when dealing with holes....I hate measuring to the edge of a hole rather than it's center. The business that I'm in everything is measured along centerlines...nothing is measured to the edge of a hole....OK...end of rant.....LOL, back to you regularly scheduled reading.

[MrQuick]

John, I know you have seen early GM's tolerences....its close enough to roll straight...ish. LOL

Besides, when its off you can tell.
Vince

[732ndgen]

shur does look like the sub frame is to far back,check it out when you look at the springs. you should be able to move the sub frame without screwing up yor panel fitment.goodluck

[AintQik]

I will go get her and bust out the measuring tape. I will post all measurements. That 87 7/8ths one should do it.

[Ron.in.SoCal]

I will go get her and bust out the measuring tape. I will post all measurements. That 87 7/8ths one should do it.

At least you'll know if the sub is too far back (or not)...

[LSx_88_Ciera]

A fairly abstract thought but I am going to ask anyway?

When you built/rebuilt the Cam did you replace the fenders? I really can't see the frame/uni-body dimensions changing during a build but some crappy
replacement fenders could cause issue besides fender to door gap. I mainly ask because no amount of caster (within reason) is going to offset the
wheel towards the back of the wheel house that much while steered forward.

[AintQik]

Both front fenders are new. However, my body guy probably would have caught anything too far out. Here is how it went down at his shop.

Hi Dave here are the replacement panels I have for the 67
(opens door box)

This door is 1/4" too short.

What?

(points at end of door) this door is too short.

What are you high?

(goes and gets a factory stock door lays it on the floor next to mine and measures it) See, its too short. Get me another one.

Holy crap.

He did this on about 3 other panels and made me reorder them or find OEM stuff. Needless to say he knows Camaros. The reason I chose him was because when I brought him the shell he picked probably 50 things that were "wrong" on the car. Something as far off as that fender would have to be would never fly with him. When I inspected the car after paint, my only complaint was one radius of the rear fender was not quite right and didn't match the rear of the door. Its close, but my anal eye can see it. He spilt the rear quarters and reworked them, this one could just not get perfect for what I'm spending. He is just that way. I'm pretty confident I'm going to find a combination of little things. Spindle, arms, spring, subframe, I'll take it apart and see. When I got the car, the body guy said hey these control arms are wrong. So far, everytime I doubt him I've been wrong.

[exwestracer]

I will go get her and bust out the measuring tape. I will post all measurements. That 87 7/8ths one should do it.

Another helpful measurement would be dimension "F". If it's correct, you've got a caster problem not a subframe fitment problem.
(Now that I look again, "E" will also tell you if the lower A arms have the correct wheelbase geometry...)

[AintQik]

"E" or "F" might be tricky because the after market arms will probably move the ball joint, even "right" ones. I would suspect on any aftermarket arm car those measurements will be shorter than factory. However, now that you mention it, I could call Global and ask them how far the ball joint is supposed to be moved back and compare to what I have.

[AintQik]

UPDATE:
I just got done taking measurements off the car and everything is dead on. I was hoping the subframe to be out or something stupid, but its not. When I say dead on, I mean its dead on with little to no variation. Most surprising to me is the lower ball joint measurements ref "F" and "E" on the sheet. Those are both on. I thought they would be different due to the after market arms but they are not.

This leads me to suspect the upper arms, or the spindle. The fender is not going to move back and unless both sides were cut way wrong they are not the culprit. The inner liners fit right with no muscle so I feel its safe to rule them out. All that is really left is the spindle and upper arm right and the alignment right? Without going into negative caster it will not clear. Its supposed to be at 5.5*. There its not even close. If I set it to -1 it might eek by but of course you can't drive with -1* of caster.

[John Wright]

If I set it to -1 it might eek by but of course you can't drive with -1* of caster.
Just drive in the "R"ace gear....hope you get this figured out.

[AintQik]

Also,
Compared to a stock car the upper control arm is .5" back in the wheel well. The spindle is sitting at -6.5*. Don't know what its supposed to be.

[AintQik]

I think I figured it out. Check my logic.
They sent me a 2" drop spindle which I really didn't want to begin with. I don't think this system is intended to run with this spindle.

So, draw a verticle line at 90* which represents the spindle with a circle at the bottom which represents the axle.

Then tilt the spindle back towards the rear of the car (moving only the top) .5" like its supposed to be with these control arms. Circle should remain close to where it started. Now move that circle up 2" from the bottom as is the case with a drop spindle. It would be drastically farther back in the wheel well. As the circle moves up on the spindle it will move towards the back of the car because the spindle is angled back. On a regular spindle this would be much less of an issue.

[exwestracer]

Also,
Compared to a stock car the upper control arm is .5" back in the wheel well. The spindle is sitting at -6.5*. Don't know what its supposed to be.

1/2" at the upper ball joint? That wouldn't give you the problem you're having (at least not that much). Caster is high, but not ridiculous...

Did you say the spindles are not stock? Drop spindles? You may have got something with a lot of "mechanical trail" built into the knuckle (spindle pin moved back from balljoint centerline). That would have a direct effect on wheelbase.

If "F" was correct, that tells you you're in the right relationship to the firewall and front fender mounts. "E" says that nobody jiggered the subframe to correct bad lower arm geometry...it's looking like something with the spindles. Even if the tires are much taller than stock they should still be centered in the fender openings...

[AintQik]

Ray, thanks for your input. I'm leaning towards the spindles. Only thing that does not check out so far. Global says they are supposed to be .5" back at the ball joint. Everybody knows drop spindles are a pain. I didn't want them to begin with and somehow forgot to check them when I got them. I got $2 that says that's my problem. A fella can hope can't he? :)

[Ron.in.SoCal]

Any updates RJ?

[John Wright]

Any updates RJ?
+1...just wondering if you have figured out the problem, yet...

[John Wright]

Check out Track Day's Progress thread

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showpost.php?p=673662&postcount=263


he's using an ATS spindle and has a ton of alignment shims in his also to achieve -1°...one common item between yours and his is the GW control arms.

[AintQik]

Right now I think its the spindle but I won't know till I tear it apart. Its locked down in my trailer right now getting ready to move to NJ. I'll make sure and post when I know for sure.