Rear suspension comparisons for first gen camaros?

[Danksta14]

Ok so I am in the midst of putting together a 69 Camaro PT. I am currently in the process of finding the best rear suspension for the buck. I have been considering the DSE QUADRA 4 link suspension, been looking at the TCI 4 link, also the TCI torque arm 3 link kit. These are primarily the kits I have been checking out. SO my question is what is the best overall kit to go with for street and track use, and why? Also what is the main differance between the Torque arm kit, and the 4link kits?

[ProdigyCustoms]

A lot will depend on what is most important to you, your budget and installation abilities.

In % of importance, what due value most?

Flat out road coarse performance?
Street handling?
Ride?
Drag racing / hooking at the stop light?

[Danksta14]

1) 65%street performance
2) 35%trackracing/ autocross

budget is 1500-3000,,,,looking to spend 2-2.5k on it

dont want to rush, but would like to purchase sooner than later while i have the money!

[ProdigyCustoms]

Does street performance include stop light blast?

[Danksta14]

yea i will probably being redlining off the stoplight once twice a month

[Danksta14]

Also on both the TCI and DSE 4link suspension mini tubbing is added. is minitubbing required with these suspension kits, or is it just suggested if you are adding bigger tires? do u think u could run 315mm/12inch tires without mini tubbing or is that a stretch?

[ProdigyCustoms]

We sell and install 6 different rear suspension solutions including:

in alphabetical order, not order of preference:

Art Morrison, Chris Alston, DSE, Global West, Hotchkis, and Speedtech

You do not have to mini tub with any of those kits you mention. If it were me and straight line was even a little important, I would do a triangle 4 link. A Chris Alston G Link is my favorite easy o install system.

The Quadralink is most likely the best flat out 4 link one can buy if you are doing 150MPH on the road coarse, but has very little anti squat and does not hook great of the light.

Torque arms can do either, hook like crazy or handle, but not at the same time.

The triangle 4 link is the only one that will do all of the above.

Art Morrison has the ultimate triangle 4 link, but it is out of your budget and requires a lot of fabrication including replacing the rear frame rails.

Now one other that can do all is a 3 link, but none are in your budget, and fabrication is extensive.

[arue333]

So i have this same question but am trying to choose between the triangle 4 link and a straight 4 link with a watts link.
Handling is the focus but it will be on the street as well.
What is your thoughts?
67 Camaro

[ProdigyCustoms]

It depends on how the bars are set up, how much bite (anti squat) is built in or available through adjustment.

The Triangle set ups have a bit more anti squat built into them and still handle great.

The other factor is installation. This plays in heavy if your abilities or facilities are limited. Or if your hiring it done. The difference in installation hours can be huge and hours are dollars.

If your skills and facilities are capable, I would de a AME rear clip. If your limited on any of the above, or hiring it done on a budget, i would look at a G Link. NO CUTTING, totally installs under the car and you do not even empty the trunk!

[XLexusTech]

Frank if you had to weigh the G link against the torque arm considering in order the priorities are street performance, drag , road course.

which way would you go?

[ProdigyCustoms]

In that orde, absolutly a G Link. I think the triangle 4 links are the best ALL AROUND easy to install packages of all.

A 3 link still has to be the best ALL ALROUND live axle suspension, the numbers all just say so, but they are extensive installation projects.

[Vegas69]

I've been happy with the ride and handling of my gbar.(Old style modified) It's go pretty decent forward bite. This photo was shot by Sean at Chevy hi performance during apex practice at RTTC. My first wheelie that I know of!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/05/Wheelie-1.jpg

[ProdigyCustoms]

That is really diggin Todd. Car looks great.

[bret]

You might want to consider the AirBar as well. It can be used with ShockWaves for ultimate adjustability or with coilovers to save some coin.
Here are images and video of the system installed on Velocity: http://ridetechgarage.com/more/1968-camaro-velocity/

Here is more product info:
http://www.ridetech.com/shop/suspension-components/airbar/1967-1969-chevy-camaro-firebird-airbar-systems.html

[BMR Tech]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

We have been building torque arm suspensions for 12 years now. Our rear kit for the First and Second Gen cars is a 100% bolt-in, completely adjustable, works with mini-tubs, and uses a Delrin bushed front slider and Watts link. It easily falls within your price range. They are available for the 10 and 12 bolt as well as the Ford 9". For more information, email [email protected] or give us a call at 813-986-9302.

[Danksta14]

Wow with all of these options I am really having trouble now. All of the products look really nice. but have narrowed down to 2...i think. I like the Air Bar system by Ridetech and the DSE Quadralink. What are the advantages/disadvantages of a Shochwave suspension, rather than a coil over spring? also compared to the DSE Quadralink which would be a better purchase? i know everyone has there opions but when it comes down to the number i want the best bang for the buck? they are identical in price $2500.? also which is easiest to install?

[DJW32]

From what I have read, the Ride tech rear system is easier to install.

[bret]

Wow with all of these options I am really having trouble now. All of the products look really nice. but have narrowed down to 2...i think. I like the Air Bar system by Ridetech and the DSE Quadralink. What are the advantages/disadvantages of a Shochwave suspension, rather than a coil over spring? also compared to the DSE Quadralink which would be a better purchase? i know everyone has there opions but when it comes down to the number i want the best bang for the buck? they are identical in price $2500.? also which is easiest to install?

AirBar:
* Bolt-in installation with no welding or fabrication except for welding the upper 4 link mounts to the rearend housing. Prodigy and Moser have housings with these mounts already installed
* No cutting of floorpan
* Works with DSE minitubs and a 335mm rear tire
* works with ShockWaves or Coilovers
* Triangulated geometry induces no lateral rear axle movement throughout suspension travel

In reality some people just cant get next to using only our special thread rolling fasteners to secure the AirBar cradle and they go ahead and weld the cradle in...its no problem, your choice. Velocity is still running with the bolt-in cradle. I have driven that car reasonably hard for quite some period of time now.
ShockWaves will offer you the ability to tune the car to your liking very quickly...within a few runs...and return it to a comfy ride quality for the ride home. If you are real serious about track performance upgrade to the Titanium series or at least the double adjustable Master series. Much more tuning potential.
With coilovers [even ours] you will need to make a decision about what is more important, ride quality or cornering, and make a spring selection towards that goal.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Velocity is still running with the bolt-in cradle. I have driven that car reasonably hard for quite some period of time now.

Understatment of the year! LOL! I cannot wait to see you beat on something, ROFLMAO!

[Bryce]

Frank,

What the weight differences for these rear suspension kits. I would be interested in the total weight loss/gain when installing these.

Compare to stock rear suspension to the AME 3-link or the torque arm from BMR or the air ride G-link.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Have not weighed all of them. the Air Bar and G link weigh right at 100LBS, about what leaf springs weigh. Have not weight the AME stuff yet.

[Bryce]

Thanks Frank.

[bret]

I just ran downstairs to check...early Camaro AirBar shipping weight is 98 lbs with the ShockWaves. Allow approx. 15 lbs for the shipping "stuff"...call it 83 lbs installed. I don't remember what the original leaf system weighed.

[onechev]

did you check out super chevy the tci camaro performed extremely
well mary pozzi sure like killing the autocross with it and it was the fastest in the salom course. starting to see them competiting in lots of so cal events.

[Vegas69]

No doubt they have great performance but their spring rates are really high. I watched it run autocross at RTTC. It has NO body roll. Great for autocross, but poor for a pro touring car in my opinion. I like a capable race and road car. You just need to find the middle ground. I'm sure it would do well with less spring rate, just not as competitive. I'd also have to wonder how much forward bit the car has with such high spring rates. It's got to effect body weight transfer. I'm interested to see how they compete once they get a little more hp in the road race and baer stop challenge. I still think a car tuned to ride nice on the open road is better for the three events. The win at these events is going to come on the road course IMO.

[Bryce]

Autocross cars really need to be set up like a go cart. no suspension! or just really stiff springs. Just enough spring to handle the bumps in the parking lot.

[Cdog]

did you check out super chevy the tci camaro performed extremely
well mary pozzi sure like killing the autocross with it and it was the fastest in the salom course. starting to see them competiting in lots of so cal events.



I ran the Fawn/Gold Starlite garage TCI Camaro at the RTTH event. Our car was set up for the street with stock wheel wells. We also had minimal time to set up the car as this was our first time at one of these events. On my hot lap on the road course I over heated the front brakes on the left coming out of the back straight. The bias was set all the way forward. No doubt I would have had a lap somewhere in the top 10 places.

On the autocross we had the bias set to far to the rear. Dialing in the car is a bitch. Especially when you have such limited time to run it.

I've raced open wheel cars primarily so I like the stiffer ride. I actually prefer it. I thought the TCI system was very impressive. The car was very predictable when I threw it into the turns. Especially the double apex left hand er at the far south side of the track. I could toy with the body roll and traction to rotate the car, hit the apex and launch into the next straight away.

I would be building my personal 67 Camaro with the TCI stuff if I didn't already have the Lateral Dynamics 3 link.

http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z280/azc1967/?action=view&current=100_0436.flv

http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e260/slow4dr/Run%20to%20the%20Coast/?action=view&current=RTTC39.flv

[Roadrage David]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

We have been building torque arm suspensions for 12 years now. Our rear kit for the First and Second Gen cars is a 100% bolt-in, completely adjustable, works with mini-tubs, and uses a Delrin bushed front slider and Watts link. It easily falls within your price range. They are available for the 10 and 12 bolt as well as the Ford 9". For more information, email [email protected] or give us a call at 813-986-9302.
I ""realy"" like that system , but 2 things that bother me is 1 no room to use a x pipe exaust, 2 what is aded weight of this system!!,
cant you modify it in a way that a x pipe can be used ?? ...

[redfire69]

You might want to consider the AirBar as well. It can be used with ShockWaves for ultimate adjustability or with coilovers to save some coin.
Here are images and video of the system installed on Velocity: http://ridetechgarage.com/more/1968-camaro-velocity/

Here is more product info:
http://www.ridetech.com/shop/suspension-components/airbar/1967-1969-chevy-camaro-firebird-airbar-systems.html


Will you have pricing soon on coil ride packages?

[TCI Engineering]

No doubt they have great performance but their spring rates are really high. I watched it run autocross at RTTC. It has NO body roll. Great for autocross, but poor for a pro touring car in my opinion. I like a capable race and road car. You just need to find the middle ground. I'm sure it would do well with less spring rate, just not as competitive. I'd also have to wonder how much forward bit the car has with such high spring rates. It's got to effect body weight transfer. I'm interested to see how they compete once they get a little more hp in the road race and baer stop challenge. I still think a car tuned to ride nice on the open road is better for the three events. The win at these events is going to come on the road course IMO.


I wouldn't consider 400# front springs and 275# rear springs "really high" by any stretch of the imagination. Our car had heavier springs in it for the 2009 Super Chevy Handling Challenge. The car was completely untested prior to that event so there was quite a bit of guess work done beforehand. We continue to test and adjust this car trying to find "The Sweet Spot". Mary and Nick(Licata) can attest to the improvements in ride quality since August '09 and how much faster the car is now vs. then.

Springs are easy to change and we still run 350#/250# springs standard on Cars that will primarily see street usage. We have dozens of spring rate options available for both front and rear so we can properly match the customer's needs. All this testing just gives us more information to properly accomodate our customers.

Sal has been hard at work looking for a new engine program so hopefully we'll have the HP to back up the chassis very soon. :smoke:


-J

[TCI Engineering]

Here are a couple vids of our car at the 1st annual Vegas Super Chevy autocross. Mary actually asked us to stiffen up the back at this event.

Mary beat every vehicle there by 1.5 seconds driving our car with a 220 treadwear tire.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e260/slow4dr/Perception%20Changer/?action=view&current=TCIMaryPozzi2010SuperChevyShowNV51.flv)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e260/slow4dr/Perception%20Changer/?action=view&current=TCIMaryPozzi2010SuperChevyShowNV54.flv)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e260/slow4dr/Perception%20Changer/?action=view&current=TCIMaryPozzi2010SuperChevyShowNV85.flv)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e260/slow4dr/Perception%20Changer/?action=view&current=TCIMaryPozzi2010SuperChevyShowNV88.flv)

[bret]

Will you have pricing soon on coil ride packages?

I haven't finalized it yet, but it will be very close [maybe the same] as the AirBar/Black series ShockWave system...around $1900 complete

[Patrick]

Frank at Prodigy just hooked up my '68 Camaro with the G-Link. Wow what a difference. I was running DSE's 3in drop leafs. The car actually drove and handled fairly well for a leaf sprung car. But the G-Link with Coilovers is so much better. The ride far exceeds my expectations. I have only put about 20mi on it so my input on handling is limited--other than to say it hooks much better and has better feedback-predictability.

Patrick

[ProdigyCustoms]

275LB rear springs is super high unless there is a extreme shock angle. 175 to 200 (200 being on the higher side) is what we use on all our street 4 links.

On Patricks car above he just did the G Link, the shock was perfect with 200LBS springs.

I know different suspensions use different rates, but if the shock angles are even close to the same, the spring rate should be the same.

[TCI Engineering]

275LB rear springs is super high unless there is a extreme shock angle. 175 to 200 (200 being on the higher side) is what we use on all our street 4 links.

On Patricks car above he just did the G Link, the shock was perfect with 200LBS springs.

I know different suspensions use different rates, but if the shock angles are even close to the same, the spring rate should be the same.


You're absolutely correct Frank, there is much more to consider than just spring rate. However, you can't assume that one spring will work for everyone so long as the shock angle is the same. We have dozens of springs available to fit the customers needs and we have happily exchanged spring rates at no expense to the customer if they are unhappy with the ride quality or want something more aggressive.

We lay our coilovers at 15 degrees. This allows us to package a shorter/lighter shock yet we can still retain plenty of wheel travel.

-J

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[DJW32]

Here is a video I took at the Optima challenge. This ridetech camaro hooks pretty damn well. Remember, this Camaro has a 427 LS motor under the hood.

4ESJQUI8Ec8

[Vegas69]

I'm not trying to say your parts are inferior, I'm simply pointing out that it's set up for autocross then street. I have 175's in mine and it does have to much body roll for autocross but it rides damn nice. Really just pointing out the difference for these guys that think you can bake your cake and eat it too. I'm impressed with the performance. If Mary likes the way it drives, you must have it sorted out well too.

[rickk]

looks good .
rick k:enguard:

[TCI Engineering]

I'm not trying to say your parts are inferior, I'm simply pointing out that it's set up for autocross then street. I have 175's in mine and it does have to much body roll for autocross but it rides damn nice. Really just pointing out the difference for these guys that think you can bake your cake and eat it too. I'm impressed with the performance. If Mary likes the way it drives, you must have it sorted out well too.

I hear ya, and I wasn't taking it as an insult at all. I just think that you should ride in the car before passing judgement on it. Sal would be more than happy to take you for a 'spirited' ride the next time you're in the area. :1st:

-J

[Vegas69]

I'll take you up on that next time I see you. :)