Advice on cooling fans needed.

[trapin]

OK, I have a radiator now. I went with an aluminum 3 row radiator for a small block Chevy. It will bolt right in and I'm thinking I shouldn't have too much of a problem finding hoses to fit...at least I hope. What I need to know is....what size/output of electric cooling fan should I go with? Does it necessarily need to be a dual fan configuration or can I get away with a 16" fan? I'm looking at roughly 480-490 horse at the flywheel. What do you guys recommend? Thanks.

[JeffT]

Spal makes some nice stuff.

http://www.spalusa.com/store/main.aspx?p=itemdetail&item=30102050

[Mike Norris]

Spal does make nice fan units and here is what I try to use on just about everything space permitting.

http://www.spalusa.com/store/main.aspx?p=itemdetail&item=30102052

The dual fans with a nice shroud just about guarantees good cooling in all conditions and with the air on.

If you decide to go single, just be sure to try to build a nice fitting and efficient shroud that will pull air through the full surface of the radiator, not just where the fan is.

Mike Norris

[camcojb]

I use the Lincoln Mark VIII fan in everything it'll fit in. It moves more air than any of the dual Spals I can find, and is less expensive. I've been buying them lately off Ebay, some guys pull them apart, completely detail, refurbish if necessary and sell them looking like new for $100-$120.

Jody

[trapin]

Jody....this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/18-INCH-LINCOLN-MARK-VIII-MARK-8-TAURUS-ELECTRIC-FAN_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4a9f35d759QQitemZ32 0498685785QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAcce ssories

If so, do I need this relay for it or is it not necessary?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Taurus-Lincoln-Mark-VIII-2-Speed-Fan-Relay-Kit_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem1c10aafa6aQQitemZ12 0538724970QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAcce ssories

[camcojb]

Jody....this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/18-INCH-LINCOLN-MARK-VIII-MARK-8-TAURUS-ELECTRIC-FAN_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4a9f35d759QQitemZ32 0498685785QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAcce ssories

If so, do I need this relay for it or is it not necessary?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Taurus-Lincoln-Mark-VIII-2-Speed-Fan-Relay-Kit_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem1c10aafa6aQQitemZ12 0538724970QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAcce ssories
yes, that's the fan. Make sure you have 6.5" of clearance where the fan motor goes; the shroud can be trimmed an inch so 5.5" is about the minimum needed. The fan motor is offset some which actually helps if your radiator core is wide, the motor can be set up so it doesn't line up directly with the water pump pulley if clearance is tight.

I use a 70 amp relay with mine, due to the initial high amp draw when it kicks on. You can get them off Ebay and other sources for under $20. If you go with the nice controllers they don't require as high of a relay as they control the instant on of most systems.

Jody

[trapin]

Thanks Jody, I'll have to do some measuring when I get the radiator installed. One last question...what's the best way to mount it to the radiator that you've found? Got any pics?

[ProdigyCustoms]

The Mark VIII fans are great budget alternatives and are OEM quality. Get a big alternator though, 140 AMP range. The HIT when the fans kicks on is 60 AMPS!!!! You can shut off a fuel injected car with a low amp alternator with that much hit.

[camcojb]

Thanks Jody, I'll have to do some measuring when I get the radiator installed. One last question...what's the best way to mount it to the radiator that you've found? Got any pics?
simple and cheap method, just bought some aluminum strap material and did this on a friends car:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

On my 69 I used some of the Be Cool straps:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/zl1motor3-1.jpg

[BA.]

yes, that's the fan. Make sure you have 6.5" of clearance where the fan motor goes; the shroud can be trimmed an inch so 5.5" is about the minimum needed. The fan motor is offset some which actually helps if your radiator core is wide, the motor can be set up so it doesn't line up directly with the water pump pulley if clearance is tight.

I use a 70 amp relay with mine, due to the initial high amp draw when it kicks on. You can get them off Ebay and other sources for under $20. If you go with the nice controllers they don't require as high of a relay as they control the instant on of most systems.

Jody

Good to learn of the OEM adaptability here, but I have a novice question.

What is meant by 'go with a nice controller"? There's a controller? :help:

[John Wright]

Good to learn of the OEM adaptability here, but I have a novice question.

What is meant by 'go with a nice controller"? There's a controller? :help:

These have a "soft start", so that they don't draw as much during start up.

http://www.spalusa.com/store/Main.aspx?p=itemdetail&item=FAN-PWM-V3



...but this one has a warning about using it with fans that draw over 30a continuously...which includes the Taurus and Mark VIII fans

[camcojb]

Good to learn of the OEM adaptability here, but I have a novice question.

What is meant by 'go with a nice controller"? There's a controller? :help:
don't have to use a controller. I've done several controlled either by the computer running the engine or a simple preset grounding switch installed in the head or intake, that grounds the relay at a certain temp, say 180 degrees. They do pull some amps so size your wiring and relay accordingly, but I have yet to find an aftermarket fan or pair of fans that will pull the air and control temps like the Mark VIII factory fan.

Jody

[H2Ogbodies]

Ditto on the mark VIII fans. They are the best fans you can find....even in used condition.

[Mike Norris]

Learn something everyday :) I can see that a progressive controller would be great with that single fan.

Mike Norris

[BonzoHansen]

I think my DCC would work great w/that ford fan.

[Taman]

I'm looking at a dual fan off a fourth gen Camaro. Get a dual thermostat and have different on and off.

[trapin]

Thanks for the pics Jody. I'll have to look into getting some of those Be Cool straps if I go this route. I just have to see if the fan will fit on the radiator or if it's too big. I just heard something interesting today from an engineer at work. He told me the HHR fans draw a ton of air and don't use too much power and are starting to become popular with hot rod enthusiasts. Anyone else heard of this?

[trapin]

Well, I went for the Mark VIII fan. Got one off of eBay for $52.

[CarlC]

Can't go wrong Tony.

There's some info on my website about another way to mount the fan, but it does require machining and welding.

I had the DCC part in my car before. It was likely my fault, but the PWM created a lot of radio noise. DCC says to connect the controller directly to the battery, but that's 15' away from the fan.

[trapin]

The one I got is a single speed but it still has the Siemans motor on it. It's a narrower fan (5.5 depth) and I figured less hassle than a 2 speed. Frank mentioned getting a bigger alternator (which if he's talking the size of the unit I would hesitate to do with my LS1 and proximity to the frame) but Jody mentioned a 70 amp relay would remedy any hit to my current alternator. .....or am I getting it wrong?

[Jim Nilsen]

I think my DCC would work great w/that ford fan.

I can testify to it!!!

There is a great deal of info in the cooling section under mark8 fans. Along with pics and many results done different ways.

I wouldn't give up my setup for anything that is claimed to be the better. For the price of a DCC controller and the Mark8 fan from ebay you will still be less $$$ than many of the other setups.

Check out the other thread.

Good to see you are starting to work on the car again!!!

[Jim Nilsen]

The one I got is a single speed but it still has the Siemans motor on it. It's a narrower fan (5.5 depth) and I figured less hassle than a 2 speed. Frank mentioned getting a bigger alternator (which if he's talking the size of the unit I would hesitate to do with my LS1 and proximity to the frame) but Jody mentioned a 70 amp relay would remedy any hit to my current alternator. .....or am I getting it wrong?


With the DCC controller your system will not take the big hit and it will also not run the fan at any higher speed than needed. my fan rarely goes to full speed and never has it turned on and caused any surging of the system. I also run an electric waterpump. I do have a 160 amp alternator to cover my power needs but I really don't think I have ever used over 50% of the power because of the DCC controller.

It is also nice to have the car cool down after it is shut off and never have to think about it. It runs for a minute or 2 as it slows down and then it's over. The electric water pump keeps going for a minute or 2 longer as it slows down and it ensures that the fluid is circulating until all is cool to below the on setting.

I thought it was a lot of money at first but now I look at it and it was less than some fan setups to start with and a very reliable system as was told to me by so many who have one.

Mine is also the single speed version

[Jim Nilsen]

Can't go wrong Tony.

There's some info on my website about another way to mount the fan, but it does require machining and welding.

I had the DCC part in my car before. It was likely my fault, but the PWM created a lot of radio noise. DCC says to connect the controller directly to the battery, but that's 15' away from the fan.

I don't have a radio so I can't say anything about the effects but I can say that I have a bulkhead connector up front on the firewall from my battery that I have connected the controller to and it works just fine. I was worried as heck to start out as the directions make you believe it has to have a wire of its own all the way back. no problems so far.

[John Wright]

The one I got is a single speed but it still has the Siemans motor on it. It's a narrower fan (5.5 depth) and I figured less hassle than a 2 speed. Frank mentioned getting a bigger alternator (which if he's talking the size of the unit I would hesitate to do with my LS1 and proximity to the frame) but Jody mentioned a 70 amp relay would remedy any hit to my current alternator. .....or am I getting it wrong?
The relay only takes the load off of the switch that turns the fan on/off, it has nothing to do to the hit taken at the alternator when the relay turns the fan on. It is still an instant on when the relay turns the fan on. The controller on the other hand ramps up the power so that it isn't an instant surge of power all at once.


ie.
We have controllers on our overhead cranes here at work, without them the crane can be dangerous, as the suspended load can swing violently when the operator starts and stops the bridge or trolley of the crane. To move forward and reverse we can set the ramp up/down speed so that the crane will start and stop in a controlled manner, instead of jerking.

[BonzoHansen]

The fan in my 77 (DCC, 4th gen fans) is never on full speed. I never hear them running, and one of them has a pretty good motor noise at full speed. The car can sit & idle in 95* temps for 30 minutes and sit at 185*. I tried it, had a volt meter on the output the whole time, never more than about 6.5-7 volts or so.

FWIW, I do not have a big HP motor and no AC (yet). I also have the 4th gen fans and a OE grade radiator, so not overkill on the colling side either. Your mileage may vary.

[trapin]

Good points. I only decided to go with the Mark VIII fan because it was a cheap alternative to aftermarket. If that controller is going to cost more than the fan then I'm going to be pissed that I went with it. Or I can just go with the bigger alternator like Frank suggested. Although I think I might have a 140 amp alternator already. I know I replaced the stock one with another unit just like it when I got my LS1. I think the LS1 might have come with a 140 amp. I'll have to check.

[BonzoHansen]

Well, a new controller is going to cost more than a used OE fan. :)

I also run a CS130 alternator w/o issue.

[John Wright]

Good points. I only decided to go with the Mark VIII fan because it was a cheap alternative to aftermarket. If that controller is going to cost more than the fan then I'm going to be pissed that I went with it. Or I can just go with the bigger alternator like Frank suggested. Although I think I might have a 140 amp alternator already. I know I replaced the stock one with another unit just like it when I got my LS1. I think the LS1 might have come with a 140 amp. I'll have to check.
I bet if the car, that the motor was from, had any options at all, it bound to have the heavy alternator when it came from the factory.

[Jim Nilsen]

I bet if the car, that the motor was from, had any options at all, it bound to have the heavy alternator when it came from the factory.

With a DCC controller the need for a bigger alternator is reduced.

I think I saw the contoller for less than $300 but I may be remembering the the new one for both the fan and WP. Go to the website and check them out.

Think of it as a system that works and has been reliable for a lot of us.

[CarlC]

Is DCC still in business? I sent him an email via his website several weeks ago but did not get a reply.

[BonzoHansen]

Brian posts up here every now & then. It's such a great product, I hope he's still making them. His site still works.


http://www.dccontrol.com/introf0.htm

[CarlC]

I had good luck with mine besides the noise, but again, that was likely my fault.

I would like to use another of his prouducts but will not commit unless I can get an answer to a technical question.

[John Wright]

With a DCC controller the need for a bigger alternator is reduced.

Yeah, I know Jim, I was thinking he was trying to keep from spending anymore than he absolutely had to. So he could do a relay and use a hi/lo temp switch to turn the relay on/off and get by alot cheaper than if he bought a controller. I saw a two-speed Taurus/Mark VIII relay being auctioned on ebay for something like $79 BIN. Let me see if I can find it.....(I think he said he bought a single speed motor though.)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120541658286&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3AWNARL%3AUS%3A1123

edit:
http://www.thehollisterroadcompany.com/MarkVIII.html

[trapin]

Thanks for the input guys. John is right....I only went with the Mark VIII fan to save on cost. I couldn't see buying a $300 part to run a fan that only cost me $52. Also remember, I am not running a radio in this car so I am not worried about static noise.

And yes...it is a single speed fan.

I appreciate the information though if I ever do decide to go the other route in the future.

[John Wright]

Here, they have the relay for the single speed fan too....look in the drop down menu and choose the relay that fits what you want to do.

http://www.hollisterroad.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MarkVIII

Mark VIII single speed basic is $79

[Jim Nilsen]

Thanks for the input guys. John is right....I only went with the Mark VIII fan to save on cost. I couldn't see buying a $300 part to run a fan that only cost me $52. Also remember, I am not running a radio in this car so I am not worried about static noise.

And yes...it is a single speed fan.

I appreciate the information though if I ever do decide to go the other route in the future.

The problem is that no matter what you do to save money it will cost the same in the end from what I have heard.

Buy an expensive fan setup and you can use a cheap relay setup, you still need an alternator to handle it

Buy the cheap fan which is way better and spend those savings on the DCC controller and you can get by with less power from your alternator.

When reading through all of the threads it became obvious to me that everyone who tried to do it for less had the most problems down the road somewhere or worse yet on the side of the road somewhere.

The controller is like insurance, you hate to pay for seemingly nothing else needed, but it is insurance and that cost money.

I really am one of the tightest budget minded people here and feel that as well as the system I have works it is worth every penny and is still less money than most of the high dollar systems we drool over and is actually better and more user friendly to the engine and electrical system. The soft start and lower operating speed of the fan makes the whole system last longer all around.

After looking at the new prices he has you will spend almost as much or more elsewhere for half as much.Is it worth saving $100 to take the chance on spending time on the side of the road and then spending time and money on redoing the system? The cooling system is as/ more important than anything else on the car next to good tires.

The cost for my system is almost half of what I remember it to have been.

[camcojb]

I've never used one of those controllers for my Mark VIII fan installs. I definitely see that it's a great way to go, I'm just saying it is not required. I use a 70 amp relay I can purchase for under $20, proper sized power and ground wires, and a simple Painless ground switch for 180-190 degrees to automatically ground the relay and turn the fan on-off (if I do not have a computer to control the relay grounding). Very simple and works very well. I've installed on friends cars as described above, have been working perfectly for years.

Jody

[trapin]

I've never used one of those controllers for my Mark VIII fan installs. I definitely see that it's a great way to go, I'm just saying it is not required. I use a 70 amp relay I can purchase for under $20, proper sized power and ground wires, and a simple Painless ground switch for 180-190 degrees to automatically ground the relay and turn the fan on-off (if I do not have a computer to control the relay grounding). Very simple and works very well. I've installed on friends cars as described above, have been working perfectly for years.

Jody
Since the LS1 is run by a computer, I'm sure it's part of it's makeup that the control of the fan is handled by the PCM. In that regard then it should only take the 70 amp relay and proper-sized wires since I'm pretty sure my Alternator is already a 140.

[camcojb]

Since the LS1 is run by a computer, I'm sure it's part of it's makeup that the control of the fan is handled by the PCM. In that regard then it should only take the 70 amp relay and proper-sized wires since I'm pretty sure my Alternator is already a 140.
yep, piece of cake with that computer. Should be that the computer controls the fan through grounding the relay, but verify first. If so, just run the relay ground to the ecm wire for the fan relay ground and you can adjust the fan on/off temps with whatever software you're using to tune the car.

Jody

[Jim Nilsen]

I wish I had an LS1.

Having the computer control the fan will be nice. I almost used my Accel DFI fan control the same way.

With the DCC you have a completely seperate system and I was already starting to close in on the alternator output when I had all the lights on ,fan going , water pump and then hit the brakes. The LED taillights really save some power I found out. I really like the low fan noise because of the variable speed. When the fan goes to full speed it is really more noise than I like of the kind of noise I also don't like.

You can step up the the DCC unit later and find out how things go for now.

I was surprised to see the controller at $145 which is really worth it.

How long do you think it is going to be until you get the car on the road?

Post up some pics to show us where you are at with your progress.

Take care.

[CarlC]

The LS1 PCM fan control is negative switch. Don't ask how I know..... Duh.