Brake upgrade suggestions, anyone?

[phenometron]

Hello all,
Again, ten thousand choices out there so I thought I'd get some educated input on a couple of things: I'd like to upgrade the discs up front. Everything seems to point to Baer, but I'd like some alternatives unless Baer is the holy grail of brakes.
-AND-
I still have drums on the rear. What do you know about the drum-to-disc conversion kits out there? Are they worth it, or should I just plan on gutting the rear end for a completely new setup? One means I can get it done, and obviously the other means a major undertaking... Thanks everyone for your help.

[Bryce]

I like wilwood.

a 4 piston dynalite will be good for the street.

[MonzaRacer]

Actually give Tobin a shout over at Kore3 first, the big brakes from Corvettes are great, as long as your going to use atleast a 17 wheel.
I have an 84 Caprice and other than some small mods to the spindles they are simple bolt on up grades for me.
And if I need pads/rotors I can source locally from local AC Delco dealer too.
Oh yeah his screen name apogee

[JustinB]

Give me a call at the shop and I will get you going in the right direction. We have some great pricing on Wilwood along with Baer and CPP. Either way, I will get you into a very nice set up that will fit your budget.

[cheapthrillz]

The only helpful information that you gave us was that you would like to upgrade....

So I ask, what is the intent of your car? What size wheels are you running? Manual or Power assist?

[ProdigyCustoms]

What kind of car? If it is for the Rivvy there is no Wilwood or Baer available for the stock front spindle.

[phenometron]

Cheapthrillz:
Well, the intent is to make this a track-worthy street machine. I'm not looking to race her on a regular basis, just would like to take the hot rod to the next level. I always enjoy the winding blacktop and I'd like to make this perform as well as it can for it's size. Right now I have 17s all the way around, but I want to do a 19/18 combo. Bigger brakes would affect backspacing preferences.

Prodigy:
Yeah, it's for the Riv. The wife says I'm allowed one toy, so that's it. I figure brakes, then wheels, then suspension...sound right? If I could put her on a lift and do it all at once, I would (the Riv, not the wife LOL), but like most of us, I'm on a piece-at-a-time budget.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I will need to look into possible spindle swaps for you

[Apogee]

We've done a few for the 65-70 Buicks/Olds/Pontiac applications if you're interested in a C5/C6 type of kit.

CPP makes a semi-universal 2" drop spindle for the 58-70 B-body applications as well which is fairly conducive to big-brake kits. it's still a modular type spindle, so it retains the factory steering arms and uses a bolt-on caliper mounting bracket.

Tobin
KORE3

[ProdigyCustoms]

CPP makes a semi-universal 2" drop spindle for the 58-70 B-body applications as well which is fairly conducive to big-brake kits. it's still a modular type spindle, so it retains the factory steering arms and uses a bolt-on caliper mounting bracket.

Tobin
KORE3

And I called them yesterday and got a "I dunno if it will work" Answer, LOL! Gotta lover that.

[ponchopwr70]

I think the wilwoods are a better choice and proberly less expensive, hopefully you can find a kit to work. Also factory style c5/c6 is just as good as baer if not better.

[cheapthrillz]

Two posts in this thread are from brake vendors, so I would call both of them and talk over your needs and they can hook you up. Being a Riviera will make it a little harder, but Frank and Tobin both can solve that problem for you.

[phenometron]

It's never EASY, is it? LOL!

[phenometron]

And I believe the '71s are an E-body, if this helps anybody...

[cheapthrillz]

It's never EASY, is it? LOL!

HA! Try finding performance brakes for a '65 Ford Galaxie.... Tobin is custom building me a set of C6 Corvette brakes to go on my Gal..... He difinately knows his ****!

[phenometron]

HA! Try finding performance brakes for a '65 Ford Galaxie.... Tobin is custom building me a set of C6 Corvette brakes to go on my Gal..... He difinately knows his ****!

If you don't mind me asking, what's that going to run you?

[cheapthrillz]

If you don't mind me asking, what's that going to run you?

If you look at Tobin's website (http://www.kore3.com/), the kit he is designing for me is comparable with his other kits.... maybe a few pennies more. But of course I sprung for a bigger and better (read: upgraded) system, so that also increases the price.

I am not going to tell you the cost, but since you asked, that means that you probably have a number in mind. I too had a reasonable number in mind, and I should end up pretty close to that when everything is said and done. The bad thing is that the number I have in mind is probably higher than the value of the whole car as it is now.... You just need to figure out your number and start making phone calls.

I have met Frank in person. He is a great guy and I plan to do business with him as my project progresses. Tobin is also a great guy and very very knowladgeable with brake systems (since he builds them every day). I would say that you can't go wrong with either. Frank is #1 when it comes to sourcing parts and building pro-touring cars, and if you look through the brake section of this website, Tobin has an answer for every brake question that arises.

[phenometron]

Thanks so much for your help...checking the link now...

[cheapthrillz]

Wow, somehow I missed Justin's post (Sorry Justin).... Call as many places as you can get numbers for... especially the site sponsors (from what I've seen and read, all of the sponsor's are jam up companies) and then go with whomever you feel comfortable.

[SpeedGrafx]

You might check out www.autogearracing.com (http://www.autogearracing.com) I had them custom design a crazy big brake kit for my 98 Dodge Avenger. 15" 4 piece rotors w/6 piston calipers in the front & 14" 4 piece rotors w4 piston calipers rear. They are one of a kind custom made for my ride.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/01/IMG_0438-1.jpg

[SpeedGrafx]

Here is a good shot of the 15" 4 piece front rotor before installation.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/01/DSC019423-1.jpg

[monteboy84]

C5/C6 Brakes get my vote, you can run to NAPA or your local GM dealer for replacement parts if you're in a pinch.

[gearbanger]

I think that is an important feature as well, and from what I am learning, it sounds like Wilwood might be about the only option that does NOT allow you to get pads at the local parts house. Bear systems use factory stylae pads, as well as CPP and KORE 3. I am trying to decide myself and am very close to choosing CPP. The only issue for me is the wider track width in the front and the weight of the calipers since they are cast iron. Track width would not be an issue if I didn't already have wheels. Caliper weight won't be either if I can find some aluminum versions of the C15 PBR caliper.

I don;t like the idea of using corvette brakes on big hot rods because they are designed for a 3000lb corvette with 50/50 weight distribution. You take a 4000 lb hotrod with 60% on the front wheels, and you are asking for trouble I think. I can see having to proportion alot of the rear braking out of the system or you would be locking up the back all the time. And then your front brakes are underdesigned for your big car. Seems like you are buying alot more rear brake than you can use by doing that.

I have been looking at clamping force with different calipers and surprizingly, my B-body tall spindle swap brakes have a ton of force with a 72mm piston caliper. I didn;t have to proportion at all with my rear drums. I guess the ratio of braking was just right for my 67 GTO. I could get on the brakes hard enough and the fronts would always lock up a little sooner that the backs, keeping the car going in a straight line. I didnt even have a prop valve on the car. The only brakes I can find that have that much clamping force are the CPP big brake kit, and they have a 13" rotor vs my 12" too.

[phenometron]

First, SpeedGraphx, I wouldn't know whether to mount those brakes on the car or on a pedestal above the fireplace as sculpture! I appreciate everyone's help...Gearbanger, thanks for bringing up things I've not even considered (i.e. weight distribution/ratios). You're a scholar, for sure! Again, HUGE thanks to all of you for your help and suggestions!

[Jeffrotech]

I had them custom design a crazy big brake kit for my 98 Dodge Avenger. 15" 4 piece rotors w/6 piston calipers in the front & 14" 4 piece rotors w4 piston calipers rear. They are one of a kind custom made for my ride.


I don't think "one of a kind custom" is going to meet this fellow's needs... but I could be wrong.

If he's like me, he's looking for the best-bank-for-the-buck... which would be a C4 or C5 set-up. Go junkyard digging!

[monteboy84]

I don;t like the idea of using corvette brakes on big hot rods because they are designed for a 3000lb corvette with 50/50 weight distribution. You take a 4000 lb hotrod with 60% on the front wheels, and you are asking for trouble I think. I can see having to proportion alot of the rear braking out of the system or you would be locking up the back all the time. And then your front brakes are underdesigned for your big car. Seems like you are buying alot more rear brake than you can use by doing that.

Very good points, definitely worth looking into. My main deal is that I would rather have more brake than I need on all 4 corners, and then dial out the rears with a prop. valve, to be just perfect. I know vehicle weight is a concern, but if the C5 goods couldn't handle the stress from stopping a heavy car, companies like KORE3 would be getting sued like crazy from all the brake failures that would be occurring. Granted, the vehicle I've been looking at them for weighs less than a C5 Vette, but I understand your concern.

As I mentioned before, the C5 brakes are beautiful because not only can you buy pads basically anywhere, but you can buy abutment brackets, calipers, parking brake items, whatever you need basically anywhere you go. They're also pretty cost-effective as far as big brake options go.

[gearbanger]

I think if I were going to dig for parts and source brackets and that, I would use the LS1 brakes because they have larger pistons than the C5 stuff and are designed for a car with the weight dist and overall weight of our cars. You can more readily find that stuff at scrap yards and you will be able to get your pads and rotos at the parts house too when you need them.

Myself, I like scrap yard hunting but I just don't have the time so I need to find a kit. I cant use the C5 stuff because I have a 12bolt with moser ends and bolt in axles. I have to find a hybrid setup. About the only people I can find that can deal with that are CPP, Baer and Wilwood.

[Apogee]

Very good points, definitely worth looking into. My main deal is that I would rather have more brake than I need on all 4 corners, and then dial out the rears with a prop. valve, to be just perfect. I know vehicle weight is a concern, but if the C5 goods couldn't handle the stress from stopping a heavy car, companies like KORE3 would be getting sued like crazy from all the brake failures that would be occurring. Granted, the vehicle I've been looking at them for weighs less than a C5 Vette, but I understand your concern.

As I mentioned before, the C5 brakes are beautiful because not only can you buy pads basically anywhere, but you can buy abutment brackets, calipers, parking brake items, whatever you need basically anywhere you go. They're also pretty cost-effective as far as big brake options go.

I posted earlier thinking it was a '70 Riv and it turns out it's a '71, so I'm sorry for suggesting a spindle that probably isn't an option. That said, there are pros and cons to any brake kit, regardless of cost. Each person needs to weigh their needs, budget, and personal preferences to determine what's best for them. Education is key since you are talking about brakes...and I think we can all agree that they're an important system in any vehicle capable of moving under it's own power. For those of us with cars on jack stands...maybe not so much :P

The heaviest cars with some of the higher speed potentials that we work with and are running KORE3 C5/C6 brakes are the 91-96 B-body applications which tilt the scales at ~4500# give or take. Overall, the brakes have done remarkably well, even in road racing applications with max speeds upwards of 140 mph. We do tend to upgrade to the DBA 4000 series rotors and appropriate pads in such instances whenever the customer's budget allows, but that's one of the advantages of choosing a C4/C5/C6 based kits, as the Corvette is the singly most supported application by the aftermarket. Even though the C5/C6 caliper piston areas are significantly smaller than the OE single-piston units, the tires are still the limiting factor. Smaller pistons give more precise brake modulation and the multiple pistons are less likely to bend the brake pad backing plates over the piston under severe-duty use. The 91-96 B-bodies use the same rotor castings as the 1LE 3rd-gen F-bodies, just with the 5x5 wheel pattern. The rotor is largest limiting factor as is downright tiny by comparison to the C5 and C6 rotors. While the calipers determine the feel and balance of a brake system in large part, the rotors are doing the work of dissipating the heat.

Brake balance is more complicated then just finding a similar car and swapping the brakes. If you're not swapping the ABS and traction control, suspension, wheelbase, center of gravity, tires, etc, then you're not really comparing apples to apples. Tuning a system with a proportioning valve is just one way to help optimize your braking effeciency at all deceleration rates ranging from your standard stop and go traffic to all out road racing. Most pro-touring builds are a huge step in the right direction with lower CoG, stiffer springs, better tires, etc.

I digress...please return to your normally scheduled thread.

Tobin
KORE3

[phenometron]

So...any opinions on the rear drum-to-disc bolt-on conversions? Or should I just start thinking now about swapping out the rear? And, Jeffrotech, you got it brother. Apogee, I learned more in your one post than I think I've accumulated over the past month. Thanks a ton!

[cheapthrillz]

So...any opinions on the rear drum-to-disc bolt-on conversions? Or should I just start thinking now about swapping out the rear? And, Jeffrotech, you got it brother. Apogee, I learned more in your one post than I think I've accumulated over the past month. Thanks a ton!

If you think you learned a lot from that post, you should call him! I turn into a bobble head doll when I call him.... lol. Tobin knows his stuff....

[monteboy84]

Tobin knows his stuff....

Absolutely, always a wonderful opportunity to learn when industry Pro's chime in! :hail:

[phenometron]

Making a list, checking it twice...now I'm thinking I may just do a rear-end swap. That will solve a ton of compatibility issues in one swoop ...with the back end, anyway. Right now I think I'd be happy with a STARTING POINT. I find I keep working backwards to find one!

[gearbanger]

Tobin, have you sigured out how to put the vette brakes on a moser 12bolt yet?

[Taman]

I'm putting the 12.19" 6 piston Wilwoods on my 75 TA. The 6 piston calipers were only a $300 upgrade over the 4 piston calipers. I would like the 13" rotors but, they are twice the cost. I will run the 4 piston 12.19" rear with internal parking brake.

[MonzaRacer]

phenometron, as for rear brakes I am building an 84 Caprice and I am going to use either 2wd or 4wd S10/Blazer rear disc set up as it should bolt on fairly easy, and most likely for you as well with little or no mods/hassle.
As for my fronts after talking my self into running 18 Z06 black split spoke repro wheels in 18x10(.5) and 18x8.5/9.5 I am going to bump up to the 355mm C5/6 rotor and use the Kore 3 adapter and biggest Vette caliper I can swing for the cash. as for looks in the rear Ill just call ridetech.com and get a pair of wheel plates and drill them so they can seem like rotors.
As for master cylinder Tobin says they carry some oddball S10 righthand drive 4wl disc unit for reasonable price.
My second GM car I am working on big brakes for is my 77 Monza which I figure on using the smaller 325mm rotor and C5/6 calipers that fit wheel and Kore 3 adapters and in back a set of S10/Blazer rear disc, which on it wont be bad as I intend to swap out my 3.42 2wd S10 rear for a 4wd w/disc to gain a little better axles length for more useable wheel backspacing.
Nothing against Wilwood but I still have bad taste in my mouth from back many years ago oof buying a 4 whl disc race set up and the next year needing rotors and pads and they were discontinued, no more to be had I was told. THEN after finding a company that relined pads relining them and putting up with warped rotors till we got a rotor core from another company, we went a head and remachined everything(this was before cnc) into the blank, ground and cut it and THEN the claipers started leaking.
Sold they whole mess for $300 at racers world and found another company, but I didnt own car just worked/drove it and after i quit driving, it was sold, it now is a pro street car with hug by large Corvette from Kore3.
Anyway good luck. Just ideas.

[Apogee]

Tobin, have you sigured out how to put the vette brakes on a moser 12bolt yet?

If you're referring to the Moser #7900(F) small-GM housing end that uses the 80mm Ford ball-bearing, then yes, we do offer a parking brake kit for that application now. It's not on the website yet, but pricing and options are comparable to our other rear kits.

Tobin
KORE3

[killer67]

Baer pro plus is the way to go

[gearbanger]

Tobin, I am talking about the Moser 12 bolt, Torino style ends with the big ford bearings. 5 on 4.75 bolt pattern.