Extreme XP upper control arm..Heard of them..?? [Archive]

JRouche

10-03-2009, 10:20 PM

Ok, Ill go against the grain. Ill say from the small pic they dont look bad. From the description I would put my tongue in cheek.

Like this statement.. "have undergone finite element analysis"

But really, ALL companies have had to start from nuthing, that includes Global west. Dont knock a new manufacture for trying to get in the business. I would look at the ebayers record though. Thats seems a lil thin.

Looks like the last set went for 490 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230377983298

Might be a decent product. Might come from china too. Not that it matters much. Write an email, ask if its built here in the US.

Be expected to go to 490 or so if its any consideration from the last closing. And thats only one guy that decided to post a feedback. How many has he sold. So we look. Oh another set sold for 410..
http://completed.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=Camaro%20Firebird%20Upper%20Lower%20Tu bular%20A-Arms&LH_Complete=1&_dmpt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&_fln=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m283&_rdc=1

I dont know but Id grab a set. Check them out. You can tell if they are decent. Ask the guy where they were made. Offer him 400 out of ebay. He will still make money. Looks like 45 for shipping is gonna be there too. JR

Topless69

10-04-2009, 05:16 AM

I agree with you all pretty much. New company, (china??) who knows. Didn't speed tech start this way..?? Now they have everyones blessings..?......Thanks guys.

Lowend

10-04-2009, 07:28 AM

anarchy99

10-04-2009, 08:51 AM

I literally just installed that same set of upper and lower control arms on my 69 yesterday. They went in perfectly with zero problems and look great. I buy most everything off ebay and even if it's a "knockoff" of another company product, it's still a great product that I'm pleased with.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/IMG_0422-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/IMG_0421-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/IMG_0420-1.jpg
The guy shipped them out quickly with tracking numbers and they were well packaged up.

killer69

10-04-2009, 10:06 AM

I agree with you all pretty much. New company, (china??) who knows. Didn't speed tech start this way..?? Now they have everyones blessings..?......Thanks guys.

Global west
Detroit Speed
Hotchkis
i guess everyone has to start somewhere. other than the China part. it all depends on what is most important to the company, price, quality or service, you can pick any 2.

but thanks for noticing, "now they have everyones blessings"

Lowend

10-04-2009, 10:14 AM

I buy most everything off ebay and even if it's a "knockoff" of another company product

And you sir are part of the reason great companies like ATS are going out of business.
I'm not saying you are a bad guy... but most people don't really make the connection between R&D companies going under, and buying from the cheaper supplier

anarchy99

10-04-2009, 10:52 AM

Topless69

10-04-2009, 11:26 AM

No bickering boys, I just never herd of them before. I ALSO am not rich so I try and find good deals where I can BUT ONLY IF THEY ARE SAFE. I prefer to do as much work myself to save on $$$ and I enjoy my time in the garage,plus I get to learn something new.

Ps-I am ALL for our sponcers, If I had 1/2 the money some of you guys have Tobin,Frank and all our sponcers would have my phone # on speed dial....Thanks for all the info and opinions.

Twentyover

10-04-2009, 12:19 PM

I don't make alot of money in the military so when I can get a good product for a good price, then I do it. The guy asked whether anybody had heard of them or used them so I contributed what info I had on them. You sound like your picking a fight in here.

As far as being a good product, you don't know that yet. You know they install well, but with what- 24 hours on them, you have no data on durability, weld quality, or a number of other factors that are the parameters I use to judge a products quality.

Indeed you are doing exactly what the OP asked, but I disagree w/ your assesment that Lowend was picking a fight. You may have missed the portion of his post where he said "I'm not saying you are a bad guy... but most people don't really make the connection between R&D companies going under." Look at IBM- they invented the PC market in 1983 or so (yes, i know Apple was around then, but who had the business cred to sell PC's to business- and that's what caused the market to grow) and have totally left the market

Purchases based on price is the reason the middle class is shrinking, why manufacturing jobs are being shipped overseas, and why in 5 or 10 years China will be making foreign policy decisions for the US. Remember the golden rule, he who has the gold makes the rules.

Rick D

10-04-2009, 08:19 PM

I have been watching a few different sellers on e bay for the last few months (I won't post a link don't want to promot their stuff) all have the same arms and all in the same price range. I would say that these are from china. I have ask all of the sellers where they are made and I get "they are assembled in the USA". To me that means they are MADE off shore. I first saw these show up over a year ago and the seller had taken the discription right from DSE's web site. Word for word. He sold a few but than was gone, bad feedback. Anyway I would look for used ones over off shore made ones. That is how I found these in the first place looking for a deal on used USA made one. Like most I don't have alot of cash (2 kids in catholic school) so I look for deals all the time.

Ok just counted there are 6 different sellers selling the same arms at least they look the same???

LateNight72

10-04-2009, 09:36 PM

And you sir are part of the reason great companies like ATS are going out of business.
I'm not saying you are a bad guy... but most people don't really make the connection between R&D companies going under, and buying from the cheaper supplier
People like ATS are going out of business? Did I miss the threads about a new C5/C6 based spindle setup? :bsjerk:
Maybe people just got tired of the run around?

That aside, I agree with what you are saying.

sinned

10-04-2009, 10:20 PM

My point is that it's easy to take someone else's product, map it and throw it into a CNC machine.
Of course the product will be cheaper, because the pirate company has all but zero R&D invested

If we do business with "pirate" companies, than the real designers are hurt. If the real folks go out of business, who's going to design the next round of products?

Yeah, GW did a ton of R&D by taking the "B" spindle (invented and manufactured by General Motors a decade before GW even existed), cleaning it up and re-selling as a "G-machine spindle" and building a tubular control arm (like everybody else on the planet). What excatly did GW research and design from the ground up?I'll give them props for the Del-a-lum bushings (although not invented by them, simply offered in a neat/bolt-on package).

79T/Aman

10-05-2009, 04:34 AM

79T/Aman

10-05-2009, 04:39 AM

Yeah, GW did a ton of R&D by taking the "B" spindle (invented and manufactured by General Motors a decade before GW even existed), cleaning it up and re-selling as a "G-machine spindle" and building a tubular control arm (like everybody else on the planet). What excatly did GW research and design from the ground up?I'll give them props for the Del-a-lum bushings (although not invented by them, simply offered in a neat/bolt-on package).

So what have you come up with? about putting your money where your mouth is! design something for this hobby then we'll talk

Bigblue73

10-05-2009, 05:45 AM

Pro-Comp? Thats what they look like to me.

68Formula

10-05-2009, 06:04 AM

I don't think most people have put together the fact that we are in an economic mess right now comes down to the fact that most products we buy come from sources like China. It's simple economics, you need to take in more more than you send out. Right now, most of our money is going out. We need to keep as much money here and possibly get business from the outside. The short term gains of each person buying knock-offs, has had a long term affect that we are just seeing now. So when everyone is out of a job, they can only blame themselves.

FULMNTE

10-05-2009, 06:36 AM

It says the control arms are branded WYSCO products. Their products are all over the JEGS catalogue. Still potentially made in China?

anarchy99

10-05-2009, 06:44 AM

anarchy99 I need to point out something the military is a path you chose and in doing so thank you for your service but keep in mind that supporting product thst is made in countries that use child labor, forced labor, unsafe practices and manufacturing, does not help this country you chose to pretect (but with a name like "anarchy" you probably don't believe in what you do anyway)
Fact is these products are stolen designes and dumped on US shores, illegal by the way, but part of the problem is US companies that design a product and have it manufactured overseas and the same place that maufactures them copies them and dumps them here, as LOWEN mentioned when American ingenuity is gone what then!?

Remember Mr. ANARCHIST that WE pay you through our taxes and as we loose our ability to pay taxes because of these types of things you will also loose your job.

Off my soap box for now

wow, simply... wow.
I just returned from my 5th combat deployment and am currently on post deployment leave. The anarchy 99 in my name was a catchy name when the movie triple x came out (XXX) but more importantly it was the year I went through BUD/S training. so yeah, I probably don't believe in anything I do. Try not to spill your coffee on your lap behind your nice safe computer monitor reminding me how I make my paycheck. Your welcome.

sinned

10-05-2009, 06:44 AM

So what have you come up with? about putting your money where your mouth is! design something for this hobby then we'll talk
Actually, my front suspension package was much more innovative and required some actual fabrication (not simply bolting on factory parts). It also fixed every ailment the "A" body front suspension has.

Try searching a little and figuring out who exactly you are calling out prior to putting your foot in your mouth next time. Ask anyone who has spent a little time on this site...i actually contribute quite a bit.

Remind me again what GW "designed"? The Teflon bushings are not their design, simply an existing idea they packaged. The tubular arms have been around since the beginning of time, the "tall" B-spindle idea is a joke and again was their find but in the early 70's when the road course guys started doing it, it was all they had.

Lowend

10-05-2009, 07:36 AM

I'm not trying to pick a fight - but stating info that needs to get out there.
ATS did announce that it was going out of business (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51458&highlight=ATS+business)several months ago. They managed to save the company, but not by much

GW was the first company to do "proper" geometry upper a-arms for the 1st gen F-body; and one of the first to do an off the shelf corrected geometry a-arm for the 2nd gen. The early circle track stuff was just tubular versions of the stockers.

GW was the first company to build the actual Delrin (http://www2.dupont.com/Plastics/en_US/Products/Delrin/Delrin.html) Sleeved (not teflon) bushings for an automotive application that I know of. In the past there were nylon or tefflon sleeved bushings, which didn't have the same life-span.

The B-body spindle is not simply slapped on, they do some modifications to the steering arm geometry if I'm not mistaken. Regardless, there is a difference between modifiing an existing design/product and completely copying/stealing it. I'll also note that GW BUYS their B-body spindles
If you have counter info, post it up. I could be wrong.

My point here is not to have a GW love-fest... But they and several other company's have done A LOT for this community. Show me anything that the pirates have actually done other than steal a design and produce a lower qualilty version

Eric Howell

10-05-2009, 08:02 AM

I recommended tall spindles to a guy and he is getting them piece by piece. Spindles came then the hubs and he still waiting on the arms...maybe that's why they are going under?
http://www.s10planet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14934

This thread was about arms but it was twisted around to be you are anti American and a POS for buying parts from a non vendor. Does anyone know where they are made? I checked the Wysco site and the are not listed.

Look 79t/a, some of us aren't rich. Hell, some of us are poor. We want something that handles well and fit's a certain build style. Don't worry, you are not losing any business because "we" can't afford you. I have UB Machine arms that use C10 ball joints (FA904) and HOWE lowers so I guess I ripped of Marcus in your opinion.
So what have you developed? First thing I see is tall ball joint's that you ripped off from Marcus.

Bryce

10-05-2009, 08:10 AM

just to add to the R&D of suspensions. When i designed my stuff for my car only i have about 6 months of design. that included running analysis. Luckily im a mechanical engineer and have access to FEM analysis and CAD. But these are really expensive tools that most companies dont have. So these cheaper arms are most likely not designed using CAD. I am always up for a bargain but i hate buying crap. especially from other countries.

Bryce

10-05-2009, 08:26 AM

Twentyover

10-05-2009, 08:27 AM

Sinned-

It may well be true that some of the suppliers in our game use derivative art- but the point I was trying to make is that while it may may be derivative, these are not fly by night companies. Being US based, they are subject to the labor an liability laws. That being known, I'm guessing they have a quality control process in place. One that should assure me that the parts i purrchase were built more or less to a reviewed and qualified process.

Everybody else-

I have no confidence that product made offshore have any similiar process control. I point to the toys with leaded paint, etc that Mattel had to recall a couple years back because they (Mattel) chose to close their eyes to what their supplier was doing and did not order process control with enough rigor.

I worked in the automotive industry until January, and yes, parts on your new big three car are coming from China, Korea, Thailand, and a number of other third world countries, but they are at least being qualified by someone responsible for liability. I don't like the fact they were being sourced offshore and, regardless of what the purchasing guys said, we spent a pile of time and effort fixing the supplier screwups. Like we did with some of our US based suppliers.

Regardless, it is unlikely, in the event there is a failure in a control arm, that there will be recourse to an offshore supplier. Mattel ate millions on the lead paint recall, who will pay for damage to person and property of a control arm weld failure? Think one can go back and look at the weld schedule, quality records, etc from an offshore supplier?

Anarchy-

First, thank you for your service. I did not intentionally try to call you out beyond pointing out that I didn't believe Lowend was trying to pick a fight. I honestly feel that the US has reached, and passed, our apogee of economic and military influence, and I feel it is directly due to purchase of offshore products. In the future, when the US is making a decision on troop deployment or sanctions, at odds with our biggest debtholder, do you think the foreign government will have any compuncture about threatening to flood the world with bucks by selling a piece of our debt they hold, depressing the dollar, creating essentially an economic havoc in the country? What do you believe the executive branch will do- the right thing, or the easy thing?

I see a grim future where American armed forces are the tools of foreign governments, deployed at their call, and DC becomes no more than a puppet government.

Probably going to get my hands slapped because this got too political, but so be it

Twentyover

10-05-2009, 08:33 AM

i still dont like the idea of buying a suspension with out knowing the numbers. That compnay says it improves camber gain. What is the camber gain??? ask them for hard numbers. if they did the analysis then they can provide the info.

Arms alone won't result in camber gain (except by adding additional caster for camber gain in turns), unless you add a huge stack of ahims totheir longer or shorter arms.

There was a thread here a long while back that spoke of suppliers indicating improved camber repsonse, but the real deal is the arm length and angle through the pivots. Don't change that, and you haven't changed camber gain; and you can't change that just by changing the arms.

Steve Chryssos

10-05-2009, 08:45 AM

Regardless of which side of the moral line you stand, there is a much more important aspect to consider: SAFETY. As a 20 year veteran of the automotive aftermarket industry, I have some useful information for you all about the Chinese import process. Here goes:

Many good intentioned businesses have parts made in China. They visit the factories, supply accurate engineering, and institute rigorous quality control of products as soon as they reach the U.S. plant. A good example is Scat Crankshafts. The owner, Tom Leib will sell Chinese parts, but will not sell inferior parts.

HERE's the SAFETY part of the equation:
Parts that do not meet the U.S. quality control standards are refused by the U.S. company. They are given back to the Chinese source. What does the Chinese source do with the rejects? Do they spend money to ship them back to China? No. Do they destroy them on U.S. soil? No. They sell them as blems to secondary U.S. sources at pennies on the dollar. The secondary U.S. sources then sell them at amazingly cheap prices. It is up to the secondary U.S. source to indicate that they are blems. Many do not clarify--especially on Ebay.

So if you are okay with buying Chinese parts, please, please, please be careful about what you buy and where you buy it. Especially with safety critical parts such as control arms or crankshafts. Look for tell tale signs. For example, this particular ad says that the A-arms are made by a company called Wysco, but the Wysco website makes absolutely no mention of offering A-arms. So something MIGHT be amiss.
Call Wysco before you purchase to confirm that they:
-Import A-arms and,
-That the ebay re-seller in question is an authorized dealer for Wysco selling only first tier products--not rejects.

Eric Howell

10-05-2009, 08:53 AM

I see a grim future where American armed forces are the tools of foreign governments, deployed at their call, and DC becomes no more than a puppet government.

To Late.

Bryce

10-05-2009, 09:49 AM

Arms alone won't result in camber gain (except by adding additional caster for camber gain in turns), unless you add a huge stack of ahims totheir longer or shorter arms.

There was a thread here a long while back that spoke of suppliers indicating improved camber repsonse, but the real deal is the arm length and angle through the pivots. Don't change that, and you haven't changed camber gain; and you can't change that just by changing the arms.

I understand that arms alone cannot change the camber gain, however; the ebay add stated that it is improved.... from ebay "Suspension geometry is improved over stock by increasing camber gain".

how can you show an improvement without telling us what the camber gain is.

my camber gain was improved from +0.25* to -0.66*. I now gain negative camber during compression. i did this by changing the mounting position i then had to create a new UCA to correct the ball joint angle.

This is off topic, but why cant these improvements be quantified? for example whats the camber gain on a tall spindle or tall ball joint. or guldstrand (sp?) modification.

sinned

10-05-2009, 10:26 AM

I'm not trying to pick a fight - but stating info that needs to get out there.
GW was the first company to build the actual Delrin (http://www2.dupont.com/Plastics/en_US/Products/Delrin/Delrin.html) Sleeved (not teflon) bushings for an automotive application that I know of. In the past there were nylon or tefflon sleeved bushings, which didn't have the same life-span. So because they use a different variety of Teflon, but use it exactly the same fashion as previous pioneers, they get the thumbs-up for some grand R&D award?

The B-body spindle is not simply slapped on, they do some modifications to the steering arm geometry if I'm not mistaken. You are mistaken. How could they possibly modify a factory cast unit with a integral steering arm? Regardless, there is a difference between modifiing an existing design/product and completely copying/stealing it. They didn't modify jack crap, they took a factory part that every grass roots racer in town was already adapting and marketed it with a ball joint machined to work as a some snake oil fix for "A" bodies. At one point you even the option of saving money by getting a junkyard spindle from them. I'll also note that GW BUYS their B-body spindles Correct because building their own would HUGELY costly.
If you have counter info, post it up. I could be wrong.

My point here is not to have a GW love-fest... But they and several other company's have done A LOT for this community. Show me anything that the pirates have actually done other than steal a design and produce a lower qualilty versionGW offers only thing I am interested in and that is the bushings, only because I am lazy and don't want to build my own.

Tyler Beauregard

10-05-2009, 11:08 AM

I recommended tall spindles to a guy and he is getting them piece by piece. Spindles came then the hubs and he still waiting on the arms...maybe that's why they are going under?

First off, he is not getting them piece by piece. He got the spindles fully assembled with hubs; not spindles first, hubs second, steering arms third.
He ordered through a dealer (SC&C) right in the middle of our move from Las Vegas to Los Angeles. During that time our machinist had a machine go down, Delphi went out of business and Klykos Bearing picked up the manufacturing of C5 hubs, and then we had so many orders that we ran out of steering arms before more could even be made (machine broken at machinists.)

He was not charged by ATS for anything that did not leave our shop, and we had 108 pair to assemble and get out the door while I run the business part time at night. We have shipped 3 more batches of arms in that time and we are making them as fast as we can get the bars of aluminum. We are NOT going under. We closed the car building side of our shop; in fact we have more business than I can handle by myself and as a result of this, orders take time to process. We have never in 9 years charged a client for a product that did not leave our shop, so it's not like I'm charging a guy and keeping his money for 10 months, then delivering product.

Patience is key in this economy; if you guys can't wait for the American products that take longer to make, have higher quality materials and workmanship, then knock yourselves out and go buy the off-shore brands.
Just don't bitch to us when there is no new products on the market, and all the good companies are closing the doors because you all wanted to buy DSE knock offs.

These arms are for sure made off shore, they have had caster inserts crack and fail, causing the arm to slide off the frame bolts, and they only recently fixed the issue of the lower ball joint cut requiring a 45 degree cut to clear the brake rotor. Search Camaros.net for a 7 page thread about them, then BID WITH CONFIDENCE!!!

Tyler

Bryce

10-05-2009, 11:47 AM

First off, he is not getting them piece by piece. He got the spindles fully assembled with hubs; not spindles first, hubs second, steering arms third.
He ordered through a dealer (SC&C) right in the middle of our move from Las Vegas to Los Angeles. During that time our machinist had a machine go down, Delphi went out of business and Klykos Bearing picked up the manufacturing of C5 hubs, and then we had so many orders that we ran out of steering arms before more could even be made (machine broken at machinists.)

He was not charged by ATS for anything that did not leave our shop, and we had 108 pair to assemble and get out the door while I run the business part time at night. We have shipped 3 more batches of arms in that time and we are making them as fast as we can get the bars of aluminum. We are NOT going under. We closed the car building side of our shop; in fact we have more business than I can handle by myself and as a result of this, orders take time to process. We have never in 9 years charged a client for a product that did not leave our shop, so it's not like I'm charging a guy and keeping his money for 10 months, then delivering product.

Patience is key in this economy; if you guys can't wait for the American products that take longer to make, have higher quality materials and workmanship, then knock yourselves out and go buy the off-shore brands.
Just don't bitch to us when there is no new products on the market, and all the good companies are closing the doors because you all wanted to buy DSE knock offs.

These arms are for sure made off shore, they have had caster inserts crack and fail, causing the arm to slide off the frame bolts, and they only recently fixed the issue of the lower ball joint cut requiring a 45 degree cut to clear the brake rotor. Search Camaros.net for a 7 page thread about them, then BID WITH CONFIDENCE!!!

Tyler

Tyler,

your stuff is awesome, thanks for continuing to make your items and keeping it AMERICAN MADE.

ROEINONDUBS

10-05-2009, 12:51 PM

ok here is my input those are WYSCO a arms which i believe is at sema every year so i another company felt that there design was being stolen they would have said so already.

Eric Howell

10-05-2009, 01:08 PM

First off, he is not getting them piece by piece. He got the spindles fully assembled with hubs; not spindles first, hubs second, steering arms third.
He ordered through a dealer (SC&C) right in the middle of our move from Las Vegas to Los Angeles. During that time our machinist had a machine go down, Delphi went out of business and Klykos Bearing picked up the manufacturing of C5 hubs, and then we had so many orders that we ran out of steering arms before more could even be made (machine broken at machinists.)

He was not charged by ATS for anything that did not leave our shop, and we had 108 pair to assemble and get out the door while I run the business part time at night. We have shipped 3 more batches of arms in that time and we are making them as fast as we can get the bars of aluminum. We are NOT going under. We closed the car building side of our shop; in fact we have more business than I can handle by myself and as a result of this, orders take time to process. We have never in 9 years charged a client for a product that did not leave our shop, so it's not like I'm charging a guy and keeping his money for 10 months, then delivering product.
Yes he did order form another supplier BUT, he has received it piece by piece. I am not looking for excuses and I doubt he is either. Your parts are top of the line, on you truck you pwn all....but. when you can't get them after almost a year is complete BS! That is why people are turning to "ebay" The customer service sucks.Excuse is like and opinion and you know that story. I feel like an ass for even recommending them while I have the brakes and camber gain for less then half the cost.

I'm not trying to knock you but if you get offended then it's on you. I was stating a fact, read the thread and it is a fact. I wanted your parts but am impatient. Tall ball joint's will work for me.

Sorry if you got your panties in a bunch. I know my buddy who is a Marine still don't have his parts, maybe now you will fix that....:bsjerk:

Lowend

10-05-2009, 02:28 PM

Sinner

When the pirate companys start buying the parts they are currently stealing the designs for; from the original company's than I won't have a problem with them.
BTW - you didn't address the GW Camaro stuff at all. The CatV setup for the first gen remains one of the best systems on the market

There is no snake oil to the B-body spindle swap. It does improve the camber curve. Yes there is some bumpsteer; but it's still a lot better than the OEM setup.

And yes, I think GW does deserve a lot of respect for finding a design issue with existing bushings and correcting it with better materials.

you are coming off pretty angry here dude...

Eric Howell

10-05-2009, 02:42 PM

This thread is a joke.
You guys think it's the end all with the manufactures. Sorry it's not. Grow a pair and go figure something out for yourself.

Tyler Beauregard

10-05-2009, 02:44 PM

ok here is my input those are WYSCO a arms which i believe is at sema every year so i another company felt that there design was being stolen they would have said so already.

You mean like in this thread where Kyle Tucker of DSE comes in and states the difference between his and these Ebay knock offs?

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=127967

Tyler

79T/Aman

10-05-2009, 03:27 PM

wow, simply... wow.
I just returned from my 5th combat deployment and am currently on post deployment leave. The anarchy 99 in my name was a catchy name when the movie triple x came out (XXX) but more importantly it was the year I went through BUD/S training. so yeah, I probably don't believe in anything I do. Try not to spill your coffee on your lap behind your nice safe computer monitor reminding me how I make my paycheck. Your welcome.

First off I thanked you for your service, but you missed that part, trust me you have me pegged way wrong, but I constantly hear how low the military is paid but yet there are many that can't afford what you can in fact there are many civilians out of work these days, I always give military discount to my customers who serve, trust me I do my part as best I can but there is no room for guilt trips about your pay.

The ironic part is that you will put your life on the line for us but you won't support American businesses that will discount their product as gratitude to your service and contribute to your ability to enjoy your hobby.
I'll apologize for the anarchy thing, doen't sound like it fits you.

Now on to sinned, again what have you designed to help the hobby, no platitudes, is it available to the general public? and with your website gone your not helping anyone other than bashing a company that did what you could not.

sinned

10-05-2009, 04:02 PM

Now on to sinned, again what have you designed to help the hobby, no platitudes, is it available to the general public? and with your website gone your not helping anyone other than bashing a company that did what you could not.
I have "designed" as much as GW has. Taking a product that is available through someone else and adapting to your platform is NOT designing or engineering. It is grassroots ingenuity. And what has GW done that I could not....market and sell a package anyone can piece together themselves for half the the price?

I never attempted to market or sell to the public any of my "research" or "development" which again was more extensive than what GW has offered to the "A" body crowd. I have always freely helped anyone who asked, including the hundreds via PM at Chevelles.com.

Now I'm sorry, since you are the entrepreneur police, what exactly have you "designed" and "engineered" for the masses? Please don't come at me with your products on your site because those are all either reverse engineered or again, products available somewhere else packaged for convenience.