European vs us hot rods

[BRIAN]

I have gotten into early Porsche 911's and have seen an opposite trend when it comes to what they call a Hot Rod and how US cars are built.

I don't want to get into the Porsche guys are all rich dic heads deal as we are now at a point where the average Pro Touring car costs more to build than a 911. Yes we are the gold chain guys.

Anyway the first thing they do is strip the car to a bare bones Hot Rod. I mean every last ounce that can be thrown out is. Sound deadening, a/c etc, etc.

It just seams we do the exact opposite. Do you really need billet hood hinges? Have to have 200lbs in sound deadening? Try and sell a Pro Tour car without A/C.

The point I am making are the cars are about performance first and then looks. On the other hand we have now gotten to the point of building bloated accessory laden cars that contradict the idea of Pro Touring.

I love bare bones cars that shake, make noise and are a blast to drive. Problem is you get stuck with it if you want a new project.

What has happened to American Hot Rods? Why have we gotten so soft???? Mirrored hood undersides anyone???

[formula]

I mean, it kinda sounds to me like that's a pretty hardcore segment. Seems like they'd be pretty well in the same boat as we would if they tried to sell a stripped-out, track-ready 911 to anyone but like-minded enthusiasts.

I can't speak for every car nut out there, but my family has a 993 (the last air cooled 911 for those who don't speak porsche-ese) and my bird. The bird has no a/c, rolldown windows, hardtop, single-speed windshield wipers...the 911 is a convertible with power everything. I like 'em both just the way they are--they're both fast and both fun as hell to drive.

I know that a LOT of guys I've seen with really hardcore 911s will also have a "normal" 911 they drive on a regular basis, too. Maybe they only post on forums about their project cars?

Regardless, in my experience, forums are a terrible way to accurately determine the popularity of a trend. I went to the charlotte auto fair this weekend and there were, tops, 3-5 cars (out of something like 2,000) that could really be called "pro-touring" or "g-machines". Every automotive niche these days has a forum dedicated to it, and over time, immersing yourself in that atmosphere may lead you to believe it's extremely common in the real world. I've found that to generally not be the case.

[Shiro666]

I think that the types of "Hot Rods" on this site run the gamut.

Some cars are more "GT" and some are more race. I can't think of any examples of cars on this site that are "accessory laden". Usually the consensus around here is against the street rodification of Camaro's. The reason people replace the hood hinges with billet is because the stock ones stink.

No matter how manly you are, riding in a car that drones on the highway and can bake cookies in the footwell is unplesant for more than a couple of hours.

I don't think you will confuse any of the cars on this site with "pimp my ride" contestants. Has anyone done a fishtank in a PT car yet?

[derekf]

...as we are now at a point where the average Pro Touring car costs more to build than a 911.

I would STRONGLY disagree with that statement. I've always wanted a 911, since I was a teenager. I turn 40 next month, and have been thinking that it's time to go ahead and get one, but over the past couple of days I've been looking at the prices for both stock replacement and even used parts, and I think I cannot afford to maintain a 911, much less rebuild it properly.

On the other hand, there's a thread around here somewhere where a huge number of people self-identify as having less than 30k in their PT car. (here's the thread (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47129)). Personally, I'll likely have less than 15k in mine.


Anyway the first thing they do is strip the car to a bare bones Hot Rod. I mean every last ounce that can be thrown out is. Sound deadening, a/c etc, etc.
Yes, I'd seen that, but it seems to be mainly the earlier ones that they CAN get down to ~2000lbs and put the peaky smaller engines in. Probably not the route I'd go down if I had a 911, but then again, my El Camino body and frame will weigh quite a bit more than that regardless of what weight-saving processes I go through.


It just seams we do the exact opposite. Do you really need billet hood hinges? Have to have 200lbs in sound deadening? Try and sell a Pro Tour car without A/C.Do I need billet hood hinges? No, nor do I want them.

I intend to sell my current driver the day my PT car is driveable. AC is required, because we have a lot of summer here. Similarly, I will have a stereo and I will likely have some sort of sound deadening... because I will drive my car on a daily basis, sometimes with passengers.

What you're describing for the ultra-light 911 folks would seem to be equivalent to the "street-fighter" segment here. I reckon that's a subset of both PT and the 911 folks.


The point I am making are the cars are about performance first and then looks. On the other hand we have now gotten to the point of building bloated accessory laden cars that contradict the idea of Pro Touring.I'm of a mind that once looks outweigh performance - in the way you're describing - then that's not PT, that's (as described in many eBay ads) "Protour style".

On the other hand, if you come across an inexpensive 60s/70s/early 80s 911 coupe that doesn't need much rust repair and has good mechanicals, I could try to see it from the other side :)

[tones2SS]

I'd take a pro-tour over a Porsche ANY DAY of the week!! (And I like Porsche's!!!) But, you just cannot beat driving an "old school" car on the street with street manners and take it to the track and tear it up!!

[Steve1968LS2]

Porsche parts make Pro-Touring parts look downright cheap and affordable.

And when did Pro-Touring become synonymis with building a rat rod racecar?

Sounds more like your 911 segment is like our Streetfighter segment.

[Restomod]

WOW only 5 posts. Porsche parts are $$$ ?!?!?! NAWWW dont even look at Ferrari much less Lamborghini!! Well heres mine.........let the Porsche bashing begin......

[Memphis]

Whoa CGT kit gone err interesting

[speedshftr]

when i was younger a slope nose 930 or 911 was all i wanted/then i got a little older and had some car money i forgot all about the 911 and bought viper after viper/in retrospect i still like the 911 variations but the rumbly american hot rods always rule for me.i will admit though i used to drool over all the variations available years ago in the dupont registry.those kremer and dp motorsports/

[formula]

WOW only 5 posts. Porsche parts are $$$ ?!?!?! NAWWW dont even look at Ferrari much less Lamborghini!! Well heres mine.........let the Porsche bashing begin......


I don't think anybody around here is bashing porsche...I, for one, think they're amazing cars but saying that porsche parts are cheap compared to ferrari and lamborghini is kind of a crazy way to look at it. They're still insane-o expensive-60 bucks for a window switch? 150 for a hood strut? Plus I just ran into the dreaded SAI clog on obd2 993s--if I lived in an inspection state, I'd be looking at a complete top-end rebuild, and most porsche techs charge at least 100 an hour.

Of course, if you know how to do it yourself, you can save a lot--but that's just as true on any car.

[BRIAN]

I think you are missing my point here.

If you look at Euro so called hot rods they are more concerned with performance rather than having the latest look. Parts are bought to make the car perform better not shine.

Where is on here every other question is about how a part will look on their car. The site used to have a lot of performance builds but that was a couple years ago. Now it is more about making a car look nice.

Not sure why stripping a car of all it's excess weight and building a well engineered car would be a rat rod? Actually it is proving my point as why is that considered a rat??

Look at 2 Much. He can't sell that car if he wanted to and that is said with no insult meant at all. It is a purpose built killer ride with looks that come from it's no nonsense stripped down look. If he added some chrome and billet and maybe a 500lb stereo it would sell overnight.

I guess I always though the guys on here were into building killer drivers cars and not show machines? I used the 911 as an example as they have a huge race and street following.

As far as cost....prices are getting very close. Hey..guess I am wrong back to the usual what is the backspacing for a 1969 Camaro with a 335 tire.

[Restomod]

I don't think anybody around here is bashing porsche...

They will get around to it..............:enguard::)

[Steve1968LS2]

WOW only 5 posts. Porsche parts are $$$ ?!?!?! NAWWW dont even look at Ferrari much less Lamborghini!! Well heres mine.........let the Porsche bashing begin......

I love Porsches, but BOS has done quite a few and the replacement parts, especially for the classics, are crazy expensive.

[Steve1968LS2]

I think you are missing my point here.

If you look at Euro so called hot rods they are more concerned with performance rather than having the latest look. Parts are bought to make the car perform better not shine.

Where is on here every other question is about how a part will look on their car. The site used to have a lot of performance builds but that was a couple years ago. Now it is more about making a car look nice.

Not sure why stripping a car of all it's excess weight and building a well engineered car would be a rat rod? Actually it is proving my point as why is that considered a rat??

Look at 2 Much. He can't sell that car if he wanted to and that is said with no insult meant at all. It is a purpose built killer ride with looks that come from it's no nonsense stripped down look. If he added some chrome and billet and maybe a 500lb stereo it would sell overnight.

I guess I always though the guys on here were into building killer drivers cars and not show machines? I used the 911 as an example as they have a huge race and street following.

As far as cost....prices are getting very close. Hey..guess I am wrong back to the usual what is the backspacing for a 1969 Camaro with a 335 tire.

I don't know why you can't or shouldn't do both... My car is pretty nice and seems to not be hurting in the performance department.

And you seem to be upset that everyone isn't agreeing with you 100%.. it's called a discussion. :)

I wouldn't call II Much stripped down.. it has a stereo.. and AC.. and a full interior. What "hurt" that car was the color and the "race look".. sometimes people make the mistake of judging the book by its cover and that's a shame in this case.

[compos mentis]

Perhaps more people are concerned with looks and comfort because they've seen many people have to sell cars they never thought they'd have to sell. So maybe more now are done with an eye on resale than in the past. Others are just concerned with looks and I call that segment faux-touring. Hey, its their money. :)

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

took the words right out of my mouth..




Sounds more like your 911 segment is like our Streetfighter segment.

and i can tell you this..

not ALL pt cars are running around with high dollar audios and damn streetrod interiors.. there are nice levels of where folks are in their "luxury" status in their builds..

like for me..

a semi stripped down car, no stereo, no Ac.. IS luxury..

[CarlC]

...immersing yourself in that atmosphere may lead you to believe it's extremely common in the real world. I've found that to generally not be the case.

I fully agree.

[Rhino]

I think it's as simple as what pro-touring means to you. To someone it's a stripped street fighter, to others it's a corner burner with full amenities.
I feel the "touring" influences the most. Once my car is finished, it had better be fast, but also comfortable enough to drive to and from the destination. If that means a little sound deadening and an A/C so be it.

[Eric Howell]

I think it's as simple as what pro-touring means to you. To someone it's a stripped street fighter, to others it's a corner burner with full amenities.
I feel the "touring" influences the most. Once my car is finished, it had better be fast, but also comfortable enough to drive to and from the destination. If that means a little sound deadening and an A/C so be it.I agree 100%.

What is wrong with building what you like rather then following some set of rules that's set in stone?

Here is a hot rod forum, they don't like billet either.
http://www.killbillet.com/

*edit*
(I meant hot rods are different then PT, not trying to be an ass)

[Steve Chryssos]

I just spent back to back weekends at Lime Rock and Watkins Glen surrounded by vintage race cars, so I'm feeling quite racey. My first instinct is to agree with you, but I am reminded of lessons learned from Run Thru The Hills and The Motor State Challenge.

At our events, I have learned time and again that the level of amenities does not define the car's performance. And I'm not talking gut instinct here. Actual data has proven that some refined, full dress cars are just as competitive as the stripped down streetfighters. A few years ago, I went into these events with the same preconceived notion: That the refined cars will get their asses handed to them by the streetfighters.

Basic physics still applies: Lighter cars will beat heavier cars, but we're talking about hot rods here. So there is always a wide range of variables. In the end, results have shown that car preparation and driver skill can and will overcome differences in build style.

The list of parts is less relevant. The slow cars are the ones that are not built right and/or driven poorly. The worst cars are conspicuous: Poppin', fartin' and bangin' from bad engine tune; Engine and drivetrain failures; frequent off course excursions; etc. Cars with inexperienced drivers and/or bad chassis setups are visibly slower. We've seen fast cars that look ISCA show circuit ready and slow cars that look SCCA ready.

Message boards do not tell the tale.

[parsonsj]

Hmmm. What do I think about this? I've no direct experience with German-car hot-rodding, so I can't comment on it.

I can comment on the II Much observations though. My car was never intended to be stripped down... I always approached the car as a series of engineering problems to be solved, and found much fun and satisfaction in learning the material and solving the problems.

Included in that list was a stereo, a full interior, and air conditioning.

The car was designed for all of that from the beginning, and has had sound deadening, a full interior (including a back seat), and a stereo from the day it was first "finished". The carpeting is the most expensive I could find, it is Mercedes stuff (I have lots of respect for German engineering: see my BMW-based hood hinges). I ran out of money and time (we moved to Florida as the build was winding down) and pushed out the A/C for later. And, as originally planned, it now has A/C. And not just A/C: a full HVAC. Heating, defrost, and A/C.

I drive around all the time with my iPhone navigation with stereo and A/C blasting. The car is practically luxurious. :)

As far as selling, I've only gotten serious about that recently. I thought a private buyer was going to buy the car, and so I did little to market it. It's time to move on (for real), and I'm now working to do that. I am changing the car's styling (not the equipment) to make it have a broader appeal. It's a tweak, and one that many have commented on. At the price point I want to get for the car it needs marketing. Most normal folks can't afford the car (I know I couldn't afford to buy it), and so I'm trying to find the sweet spot. But again, I'm modifying styling; not the equipment list.

I'm trying to say that in summary, II Much looks stripped down. But it isn't, and never has been.

And honest: I'm thrilled people remember it in such discussions!

jp

[JEFFTATE]

Pro-Touring cars are for "touring"( taking trips/going places).
Hence refinements like A/C , sound systems , comfortable seats.

"Street Fighter" cars or track cars are stripped down.

[JayR]

The hardcore Porsche guys you mention are a tiny percentage of the Porsche community and there are far more Porsche owners that have the very latest 997 that has never seen WOT and never even had the A/C turned off much less thought of removing it to save a few pounds so to single out one tiny little faction and compare them to the majority here isn't really fair. There's way more "gold-chainer" Porsche owners than P-T guys.

Jeff and John summed it up right before me. If you want a street fighter, make an emphasis on function and only add the amenities you truly need which varies from one person to the next and if you want to make spirited drives in comfort and stop occasionally to do an autocross or track event without the aid of a trailer, you have more in common with more Porsche owners than the guys you point out and if you want to pull a trailer to any event further away than 50 miles to avoid shell-shock, then build a bare bones car for YOU.

Call me soft, but I like my fillings where they're at and don't want to lose any more hearing than I already have and I don't enjoy pulling trailers so I planned my car with a certain level of comfort for ME.

Point is, do what you want for you within your taste, style and budget.

[BRIAN]

Not really sure where I am get upset about anything??

Sometimes you just want a quick discussion not where every word you write is given that much thought. There is no attack on Pro Touring. No attack on John. No attack on Porsches. I used 911's as I have had them and no compared to building a Full Tilt Pro Touring car they aren't that expensive.

John your car is a serious car and I am not sure many would consider it cushy. You developed a car that performs first and then added the needed accys correct?? No insult meant actually it was the exact opposite.

Just curious as to who else believes we have developed into building cars with just too many unnecessary items that increase a build cost without increasing performance.

I guess I got my answer, and that is the majority want A/C and all the accys. I build cars to sell after I am done with them and sometimes you have to give the public what they want.

Thanks
Brian

[parsonsj]

I build cars to sell after I am done with them and sometimes you have to give the public what they want. Right. That's what I didn't do -- styling wise. I'm correcting that now, and it hopefully help its auction price. We'll see...

jp

[compos mentis]

Right. That's what I didn't do -- styling wise. I'm correcting that now...
jp

Please be gentle...

lol

[Steve1968LS2]

Not really sure where I am get upset about anything??

Sometimes you just want a quick discussion not where every word you write is given that much thought. There is no attack on Pro Touring. No attack on John. No attack on Porsches. I used 911's as I have had them and no compared to building a Full Tilt Pro Touring car they aren't that expensive.

John your car is a serious car and I am not sure many would consider it cushy. You developed a car that performs first and then added the needed accys correct?? No insult meant actually it was the exact opposite.

Just curious as to who else believes we have developed into building cars with just too many unnecessary items that increase a build cost without increasing performance.

I guess I got my answer, and that is the majority want A/C and all the accys. I build cars to sell after I am done with them and sometimes you have to give the public what they want.

Thanks
Brian


Hey..guess I am wrong back to the usual what is the backspacing for a 1969 Camaro with a 335 tire.

That comment made me think you were getting frustrated/upset at the direction of the thread. :)

Part of this hobby is about performance and part is about style.. you can have both so long as the style doesn't badly hurt the performance. I fail to see how my billet hood hinges have made my car any slower.

In short build what makes you happy.. :shrug:

[formula]

I fail to see how my billet hood hinges have made my car any slower.

Yours have the cutouts to make them lighter than stock, no? So at the end of the day, it was weight savings.

[Restomod]

I am upset about the direction of a lot of threads here of late. There is a LOT of GM superiority here and Japanese/European car bashing posts coming more often and help you if you mention you dig something other than a big 3 car. I have had a lot of brands and I think a one time or anouther they are ALL JUNK!!

[JEFFTATE]

I used 911's as I have had them and no compared to building a Full Tilt Pro Touring car they aren't that expensive.

Just curious as to who else believes we have developed into building cars with just too many unnecessary items that increase a build cost without increasing performance.

Thanks
Brian

All pro-touring cars are not that expensive.
It doesn't cost more than a Porsche 911 to improve an old musclecar's brakes , suspension , and add a/c to it.
The super expensive cars you are referring to are the high-dollar ones that are really few and far between.
Most of the pro-touring cars out there are not that expensive.

[Steve1968LS2]

I am upset about the direction of a lot of threads here of late. There is a LOT of GM superiority here and Japanese/European car bashing posts coming more often and help you if you mention you dig something other than a big 3 car. I have had a lot of brands and I think a one time or anouther they are ALL JUNK!!

Who's bashing?

[65-fastback]

1st: this is NOT a hotrod forum, but a pro touring forum, hotrod are a lot older (1920-1930-1940)
2nd: you decribe "all power, no luxury" that is caled a Muscle car
3rd: pro touring is like making a usa classic car handle like a new porsche, and better in performance

and yes, my friend does not dare to race me with his ferrari 355.

BTW, I live in The Netherlands (Amsterdam) next to Germany.

[tonykim]

The thing with the Europeans is that they in general have different economics than we do. The cost of fuel and the cost of space seems to have driven a mindset that efficiency and size is favored over simplicity. Thus to make power it often takes unique and complex solutions to do it in the small package space allowed. Owning an E46 BMW and having worked as an engineer in the automotive industry I've seen it time and time again. The European friends I've made through Opel forums really want to maximize their performance dollar by also sucking the weight out of their cars. An 1800 lb car with 180 hp looks similar to a 300 hp Fox mustang weighing 3200 lbs. But it does this while making 30-35 mpg where fuel is $8-10 a gallon today.

[T_Raven]

Pro-Touring cars are for "touring"( taking trips/going places).
Hence refinements like A/C , sound systems , comfortable seats.

"Street Fighter" cars or track cars are stripped down.

Exactly! If it's not something I can hop in and drive across the country at a moment's notice, in comfort, it's not a "pro-touring" car. My definition of building a protouring car would be taking an older car and improving every aspect of it. Handling, acceleration, braking, looks, comfort, and usually even fuel economy.

I'll take performance over looks any day but this site isn't for people who want to race and don't care about looks or comfort.

[79PonchoUK]

As someone from europe, surrounded by the many thousands of stripped out 'race' style cars, where everything has been removed, sound deadening, interior, heater, ac, the lot....


I can tell you one thing....



....most aren't actually used at all. :lol:

You get the hardcore 17-20 year olds who are just stripping their car out to be cool, the rest end up with an uncomfortable, deafening tin can that they cant use in winter or for any journeys over 3 miles.

I dont think PT cars are particularly over the top. If you just wnt out and out performance then I think many could save on the sound deadening a bit, possibly on the electric windows and AC (depending on your climate). But to go as far as some do here, with fixed poly carb windows, no seam sealant and 'heater delete' for the street just ruins the usability of your car.

It may be cool on paper, but that's about as far as you can enjoy it....I mean, you could go even further and sit on a balsa wood stool instead of a recaro?

[79PonchoUK]

Incidentally, I think in our climate, a heater is much more of a safety necessity than a fog light....but it's perfectly legal to remove it. All cars since '79 HAVE to have a fog light though. Strange.

[79PonchoUK]

The thing with the Europeans is that they in general have different economics than we do. The cost of fuel and the cost of space seems to have driven a mindset that efficiency and size is favored over simplicity. Thus to make power it often takes unique and complex solutions to do it in the small package space allowed.

It's true, people regularly say to me "my car makes the same power as yours but with half the engine size"

I can't help but say "so what, your engine weighs more than mine with the 2 turbos, 2 intercoolers and 4 miles of wiring....and takes 12 seconds of lag to make that power"

They still don't understand....theirs is still a better engine. lol

It's all about bhp/litre here, absolutely clueless really.....bhp/litre is THE most insignificant engine statistic this side of bhp/c02. lol. bhp/kg is a different story. Use that and you see just how amazing the LS engines are.

[vanzuuk1]

Word Steve....

[elacruze]

Amazing that the argument about definition continues to burn so bright.

How can you apply the term 'Touring' to something that is targeted so specifically at performance Uber Alles?

Driving a stripped hot rod 911 with no A/C or radio on the street is either Masochism or Egotism unless you're street racing for money...a recipe for legal disaster...Street racing is illegal, right?
'Streetfighter' is the term the motorcycle world applies to that genre on two wheels.

I'll keep my soundproofing and A/C so I can stay in the car long enough to need a fill-up.

`The battle for the world is the battle for definitions.` - Thomas Szasz

[mikedc]

IMHO the reasons for all these differences are self-evident when you look at the conditions of the two lands and the two types of cars.



-- Europe = gas (read: curb weight) is expensive. In America it's cheap.



-- European cars didn't have their styling and yearly changes as so much of the car's whole identity the way that the US models did. So there is less of a tendency to celebrate the quirks of bodystyles.



-- Europe has less suburban territory and more windy & rural roads to let a car out to play. This promotes a greater concern for performance and doesn't give you as much time to get sick of the annoyances in the car.

But in America today we live in a sea of suburban sprawl. That means there is little opportunity to corner-carve, and lots of opportunity to sit idling/creeping in your car while getting tired of its minor annoyances & wishing for better creature comforts.



-- I think some European cars tended to be a bit more optioned from the factory. So for their enthusiasts to keep options is to leave it stock, and leaving it stock is not what makes people become real enthusiasts. The opposite is true for the low-optioned American cars.

I'm saying that people are amused by something different than stock on both continents. But the specifications of "stock" ARE different on the two different continents. At least a little.



-- And one last thing: You don't need air conditioning when you're living in a country that remains butt-cold during a much bigger portion of the year than in much of the USA.

[cheapthrillz]

If you truly love the car you are building, you know that you will NEVER sell it. Then you tend to build it exactly the way you want it and to your personal preferences (weight savings, bling, etc). Many people build cars knowing that one day they will want to be able to sell if the need arises, so they include some "selling points".

There are extremists at both ends of any group whether it be political, religious, automotive, etc.

Brian, you are correct in your first post. Their definition of a hot rod is not the same as ours. But you then changed the subject to "why are our pro-touring cars not track cars". The answer is stated many times throughout this thread. The answer is they're not. They're touring cars. If we left the touring part out of this website, it would be pro-streetlegalracecars.com

Not all of the cars on here are "bloated accessory laden cars". Some are and some are strippers. Again showing the extremities of the group.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that people build their cars the way THEY want them, but we are all on this site because of the genre and "style" of our rides. If all of our cars were the same (bloated accessory laden or stripped down race ready) this would be a pretty boring website don't you think?

[HalfAssWhiteTrash]

Tell ya one thing, in the past few days of digging thru the posts on here, I have yet to find one car that I wouldnt love to own and take out and flogg the piss out of, that said I have also seen a ton of cars on here I would gladly put my family in and take across country. Hands down the greatest collection of diversity on the net. You guys all have amazing rides.

[para67camaro]

It is funny you should say that. I am in the military living in Stuttgart Germany, it is the richest province in all of Germany. I mean I see lambos, porches, and maseratis as a common place here. Let me tell you the Germans love their cars but they also drive them for the specs they were built for. I mean I am doing 260kph on the autobahn and get passed like I am standing still by a Murcielago, or right before my trip to afghan an Aston Martin Vanquish. Those things scream at WOT. Maybe it that they have so much disposable cash that they don't care or they are true enthusiast. I have not been to the tracks yet, and by the time I get back it will be snowing, so I will check it out in the spring with my Camaro and see what those Krauts are made of.

[vdaviemusclecars]

You can get a new Porsche 'Hot Rod" I just sold my GT3RS. From the factory, no back seats, Carbon fiber, Aluminum hood, rollbar ect.. That car was the best car i have ever had to flog up in the hills. stripped down for one purpose and it still had a/c. and a cup holder!

[George]

I have really wanted to do a 1960 356 GTL Carrera with a complete 2000 or newer Carrera S Engine/frame/suspension and interior....

That would be pro-touring...

But I can't imagine the money it would take to work the bugs out. Not to mention the full aluminum body work.

Also my Grandfather had 2 1970's Lambo Miura's. One was the Miura S, had 4 3 barrel carbs that all pumped at once to feed the V12

How sexy is this car:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[compos mentis]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img98.imageshack.us/i/miurasv3x.jpg/)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img19.imageshack.us/i/miurasv2u.jpg/)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img180.imageshack.us/i/miurasv1.jpg/)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img21.imageshack.us/i/copyofmiurasv2.jpg/)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img180.imageshack.us/i/miurasv5.jpg/)