Will this be o.k. for the street

[796spdbu]

Hope some can help.I have a 72' chevelle.I want to do a budget built.Here is what I'm thinking.Energy suspension bushings(all ready purchased),hotchkis springs,kyb shocks(gr-2),speed-tech 13''brake brackets w/c-4/5 parts,hotchkis front swaybar,marcus sc&c/howe tall ball joints.That is what I have come up with for the front.For the rear I'm making my own upper and lower c/a's with currie jonnie joints on the chassis side and urethane bushings on the axle side,no rear sway bar kyb shocks,hotchkis springs.The engine will be a vortec head 355'' with a 700r-4 trans,and a 3:73 posi trac 10-bolt.Wheels and tires will be 17x8/17x11 torq-thrustII with 245/45and315/35 bfg tires.Finally here is my questions....Are the marcus tall ball joints going to work for me,I would like to do a track day or two,but mainly spirited daily driving,the joints are listed for $85.00 a piece,I'm not saying they are not worth it, i just dont know.Lastly can i use a monte-carlo ss g-body steering box in the stock 72'chevelle location.Idont mind spending the right money as long as it is in the right place.I want to do this once and that is it.Iant to do this in as little time as possible so no exotic parts,I'll save that for the 67'camaro next year,i'd like to enjoy this car soon as possible.Thanks for any and all help.

[dennis68]

Hope some can help.I have a 72' chevelle.I want to do a budget built.Here is what I'm thinking.Energy suspension bushings(all ready purchased),hotchkis springs,kyb shocks(gr-2),speed-tech 13''brake brackets w/c-4/5 parts,hotchkis front swaybar,marcus sc&c/howe tall ball joints.That is what I have come up with for the front.For the rear I'm making my own upper and lower c/a's with currie jonnie joints on the chassis side and urethane bushings on the axle side,.

You were doing fine until you went poly on the axle. Poly bushings do not ever go on C4L suspension links ever. It does not matter what your intended pupose is. Say it with me, NEVER USE POLY ON A C4L SUSPENSION.

Ohhh, the tire sizing is WAY wrong. You can't run that much split and hope to anything at an open track event short look stylish. 245/315 is too much split. 275/315 is barely going to work. How about either the 275/315 or maybe a 255/285.

[Elusive R]

Why not try the poly bushings out? If you don't like the way it drives/rides, then go get yourself some rubber bushings or the Wolfe bushings dennis has (although somewhat exotic) and swap them out. Since you paid for the bushings, might as well give them a try. Who knows, it might be perfect for your style since you're not running a rear sway bar.

I can't comment too much on your front suspension setup, but it sounds like you've done your research already. I don't see why those ball joints wouldn't work and they'll save you money to prevent you from doing a B-body spindle swap.

Ryan

[dennis68]

Ryan, because it has been scientifically proven that poly bushings induce bind into a system that already has bind designed into it. It is physically impossible for poly bushings to NOT make it worse. You have them, I understand. They still are not right.

It is like trying to convince to someone to make your same mistakes so you’re not the only one or something. They are wrong, no other way around it. They do not work period. I do not care if you think your car works OK with them, it does not.

I thought you were an engineering student….did you skip the kinematics semester? :icon_razz

[jyeager]

Ryan, because it has been scientifically proven that poly bushings induce bind into a system that already has bind designed into it. It is physically impossible for poly bushings to NOT make it worse. You have them, I understand. They still are not right.

It is like trying to convince to someone to make your same mistakes so you’re not the only one or something. They are wrong, no other way around it. They do not work period. I do not care if you think your car works OK with them, it does not.

I thought you were an engineering student….did you skip the kinematics semester? :icon_razz

Actually the Johnny Joints that he plans to use on one end of the control arms will negate any binding. Therefore he's good to go!
http://www.currieenterprises.com/ces...nnyjoints.aspx

[Elusive R]

I do not care if you think your car works OK with them, it does not.

I thought you were an engineering student….did you skip the kinematics semester? :icon_razz

Wow, thanks for letting me know that my car doesn't work. And don't worry, I not only took kinematics, I got an A. :icon996:

You just need to stop presenting your opinion as fact. Yes, poly induces more bind - we get it - and that part is a fact. Saying that they are flat out wrong for everyone is your opinion. Maybe some people like how it drives with full poly and no sway bar. Maybe some like full rubber and a big bar. Some might like all rubber and no bar. Or 1/2 and 1/2. Or any other combo. They all work, you just might prefer one over the others because it feels best to you. Maybe some people aren't planning on driving their car around with spherical bushings at every corner. There are many different driving styles/habits/preferences. Please just be a little more open minded. I only suggested that he try the poly bushings to see how he likes them. Then he can decide for himself what's best for his car. I think I'm done with this thread so I don't hijack it more than I already have - my apologies to 796spdbu.

Ryan

[dennis68]

not sure what happened there...

[dennis68]

Wow, thanks for letting me know that my car doesn't work. And don't worry, I not only took kinematics, I got an A. :icon996:

Cool, so we are on the same page. That said...

You just need to stop presenting your opinion as fact.

Nothing I have stated in this thread was an opinion, it is proven fact

Yes, poly induces more bind - we get it - and that part is a fact.

Good, we agree

Saying that they are flat out wrong for everyone is your opinion. Maybe some people like how it drives with full poly and no sway bar. Maybe some like full rubber and a big bar. Some might like all rubber and no bar. Or 1/2 and 1/2. Or any other combo. They all work; you just might prefer one over the others because it feels best to you. Maybe some people aren't planning on driving their car around with spherical bushings at every corner. There are many different driving styles/habits/preferences. Please just be a little more open minded. I only suggested that he try the poly bushings to see how he likes them. Then he can decide for himself what's best for his car. I think I'm done with this thread so I don't hijack it more than I already have - my apologies to 796spdbu.

That is like recommending that someone try driving with undersized brakes, sure they may work OK, for a while. Then, at the worst possible moment the poorly designed system will reveal itself for what it is...inferior. The result will be a bunch of head scratching while looking at the carnage wondering what went wrong (assuming everyone is OK). There is no situation in the world where purposely running inferior parts is "OK, maybe he likes it that way".

I pride myself on leaving my opinion at the door when I enter these arenas. I may slip occasionally but for the part if I state it, it is not an opinion. I don’t think this is a hijack as he wants to know what other shave to say about his theory. I have told him that it will, without question, induce more bind into the system than was already present. You state that he might like it. Good tech for the suspension thread.



On edit, maybe we need some kind of refinement of the rules of the board around here, I know quite a few have gotten some feathers ruffled lately for having their "opinions" squashed by tech in the TECH SECTIONS. Just my .01 (I don't have .02 to spare). I’m pretty sure we have some opinions type sections too for those who want to freely express them.

[dennis68]

Actually the Johnny Joints that he plans to use on one end of the control arms will negate any binding. Therefore he's good to go!
http://www.currieenterprises.com/ces...nnyjoints.aspx

Wrong. Running Jonny Joints will not negate the affects of running solid ends (polyurethane) at the other end. This theory has been tested and by overwhelming amounts disproved at CC.com....would like a copy of the test. I happen to have it handy.

PS, I have JJ on my axle now so it's not a vendor bashing issue here.

[796spdbu]

Hey Dennisand Ryan,
I dont have the rear poly yet.I only have the front,are they too wrong.Dennis,I have been on the site for a couple of years now,just sitting quietly and reading the posts tring to build my cars to the best of performance,both suspension and braking,drive train comes last if the car stil moves on its own power.Dennis,you have become one of the names i became fimiliar with as I have read some pretty amazing things,because of you and pozzi i have started looking into differnt engineering colleges,kinda hard for a 27 yr.old guy to do but what the hay.Any way,to my point,Ihave come to respect your opinion.Hope i can meet you some day and pick your brain.Ryan,I also respect your opinion.As for the rear control arms,I have built a few rock crawling jeep suspensions with the johnie joints with good results,but I also know that they are differnt animals as far as handling.I really thought that they would take the bind out of the system.Thanks dennis for setting me straight.So idea would be JJ on both ends??How about straight heim joints,I have used these in many race cars i have built and owned.They were drag cars though.I know heims are precesion parts but how a bout wear and mileage life.Iknow how rough they ride on the street as do the jonnie joints,so ride dont really matter nor does the noise of either of them.Do the g-body malibu suffer from the same rear four link bind and does that mean my full hotchkis suspension...suck.What if any thing will cure both of these cars.My malibu is finished other than the engine tuneing.I want to take either of these cars on the first annual pro-touring cruise in june.Does the poly in the front suck too,I have heard bad about del-rin bushings also and thought the poly was a better way to go.Do i need a rear bar,cause i have heard that they also add to the already mass amount of bind?Wheels and tires will the 285's look lost in the rear on a 9.5" wheel,they wont fit on an 11" with out bulge will they?I dont want to run a lot of back spacing because that causes bearing wear,right.Will the 275"s rub on hard cornering with a 9.5" in the front they dont look right on 8's(ive tried).I know im asking alot but i like to do things right once? Any help will be greatly appriciated.I havnt even started on the suspension yet so I very open to any proven designs.How about the sterring box?Will the g-body SS box work?I can fab my own rear control arms just need to know what to run on each end.Thanks again.Greg

[BRIAN]

I agree, not everybody is after the same results. The parts chosen are not dangerous combination, correct? I do prefer rubber bushings but probably for a different reason. I guess clarify what end result you are looking for. Some guys will do simple shock swap and swear car out performs a race car. Others will never be satisfied. Good luck.

[crashbox455]

any four link is going to have kinematically-induced forces placed on the links, whether you've got poly or not.

so any kind of four link is "flat out wrong"

denny is on the right track, meaning for his purposes, and the purposes of the people this site was created for, poly bushings on a four link is "wrong". that is correct.

based on the question asked, i don't think the original poster is much of a hard-core suspension guy. nothing wrong with that, but IMO there are other more appropriate forums out there for questions like that. i don't think throwing bushings into a clusterfeck like a chevelle rear is money well spent. for this guy, or others, it may be the best choice that fits in the budget.

having said that, i would like to point out to the chevelle guy that the Mule has rubber bushings, and Stielow made a good case as to why in the original PHR series.


what, you don't have all 41 issues featuring the Mule? isn't that a prerequisite for joining this forum?

[yody]

WOW 41 issues of the mule! Dennis, take a chill pill, you learn a few things and now have turned into the know-it-all tech police, give it up, I know you are on a quest of teaching everyone with an A body about the correct ends for the links, but you are trying to force feed it. I see you have definetly learned your stuff in the last year, but only time will teach you to have patience and offer your "opinion" not make it a fact that has to be followed, and not "care" so much if people don't just take your ideas as facts, or just too ignorant too listen. I could see if what he was doing was going to be dangerous but it isn't. Now i do fully agree with you on the poly Crap, but you should worry more about your own ride. I know you are just trying to share your info with this guy, but this Isn't CC.com so chill out.
p.s. have you prepared your excuses for that blue firebird blowing past you in the upcoming buttonwillow event?......

[Blown353]

I'll jump in here and try to explain why you don't want poly in the rear end-- it leads to increased roll stiffness. While that isn't a bad thing (a sway bar does it too) the poly's give you unpredictable and nonlinear roll stiffness response. It's different every time based on the suspension loading and orientation of the links. The car never responds the same way twice.

What that translates to in an A-body is snap oversteer in a corner over road irregularities (bumps), as the suspension cannot articulate freely and in a linear fashion. Rather than ride smoothly over the bump, the polys will cause the rear to "skip" and break traction.

Years ago I ran poly on the back of my car for a week, and that's only because I didn't have time during the week to remove them the very next day. I had to wait for the next weekend! The first time the rear end "skipped" around a corner and tried to pass the front I decided I had enough.

You don't want poly not just because it's "wrong" for the stock converging 4-link, you don't want them because they make the car VERY unpredictable in a turn, especially one that isn't glass smooth! Trust me, you don't want to have the nagging doubt as you sling the car into a turn asking "gee, I wonder if it'll stick this time..."

If you never push the car hard through turns, the polys will suffice but ride very stiff. The moment you start pushing it hard through turns however they become a matter of safety because of the unpredictability they induce in the rear suspension.

Dennis has it 100% right here. The best way to get the best results out of the stock C4L is exactly as he described. It won't be a 100% ideal rear suspension but it will stick pretty good, and more importantly be predictable and safe in the twisties.

Troy

[wally8]

OK, here comes the circle tracker POV.

Wissota modifieds are restricted to running this suspension only. As a result they have developed it about as far as one could imagine.

Guess what? They use poly bushings. Bushings unlike you've probably ever seen. The outer casing is about 2 to 2.5 inches in diameter and the bolts are typically 5/8 inch. What that makes is a bushing with a lot of poly material in there. That's the key to making this type of suspension work; a compliant bushing. Poly is fine, it just depends on what durometer of poly you're using (yes, you can get different values). In fact, most of these suspensions have bushings with two different values of poly in them to aid in forward bite while still being compliant in roll. When Denny talks about Poly he's talking about that off the shelf crap that is typically marketed to street guys.

For those who don't know exactly why the bind is bad, it's because it is a progressively increasing spring rate. You typically stiffen a rear spring to loosen up a car. This means your car will get progressively looser as you roll harder into the corner and the spring rate starts to approach infinity. This doesn't happen at a linear rate and thus you find the limit of the car all of a sudden. It's a bad deal, especially for an inexperienced driver. It can happen on the street too depending on what kind of nut you are on the on ramps.

So there you have it. Denny is sort of right but not completely.

I would also agree that no one wants the semi-hostile environment of CC.com and that Denny is generally a little overbearing in his tirade against poly bushings but by the same token, this place shouldn't devolve into a tech-free zone like other forums. Most of you know which one I'm talking about. Opinions are fine but don't get PO'd when someone gives some actual tech that doesn't agree.

I've read a lot of the archives and this site seems to have been built by some pretty hard core guys. I'd hate to see them decide to head somewhere else because of too much unsubstantiated psuedo tech. I've talked to several people who feel the same way. This is not to mean that people shouldn't ask questions, just be prepared for the answers.


Wally

[yody]

Agreed not exactly the same thing, but same idea, i was running poly in my rear sway bar and leaf springs, the rear was so stiff! It too would "skip" and break traction, believe i had to much roll stifness, the stock rear swaybar wasn't designed fo rhte polyurethane bushigns, it wasn't very thick but the combination of the poly in the bar and springs created an undesirable handling scenario, you never new when traction was going to break, pretty unpredictable aka dennis's comparison to inferior brakes. What Dennis is saying is true, what minute you will be going through a corner and either a bump or just no more traction will give you snap-oversteer, not the greatest thing or the safest

[gen3bu]

greg,
the 275/285 will fit perfect on a 9.5 wheel. there is a guy in washington that has the 275 on 9.5 combo up front on a monte ss. here is his website: http://home.earthlink.net/~bzdel/
good luck

kevin

[yody]

I would also agree that no one wants the semi-hostile environment of CC.com and that Denny is generally a little overbearing in his tirade against poly bushings

this place shouldn't devolve into a tech-free zone like other forums. Most of you know which one I'm talking about. Opinions are fine but don't get PO'd when someone gives some actual tech that doesn't agree.

couldn't of said it better! lets get back on track, and not let this post get dissolved

[zbugger]

Cody, care to tell what you were running out back? What springs? What size bar? I hate to say it, but I think you could have lost that by losing the rear bar. Besides that, you have leaf springs. They act differently than the C4L on A and G body cars.

[Blown353]

Wally, good info! I wrote my post referring strictly to off the shelf, super high durometer poly that you get from Energy, PST, et all. That is was what my experience was with. I threw it in the trash as soon as I could! Yes folks, it really was that bad. While some people report good results with off the shelf poly's, I'm fairly certain these people have never hucked their car into a fast turn. The moment you do that you quickly find why hard poly bushings are a terrible idea in the rear of these cars. Add some bumps in that turn, or better yet fully boxed upper control arms and you'll receive an extra-special lesson.

Wally, with the lower durometer Poly's as you described, I can see it working; basically you would have bushings that would perform as the compliant factory-style rubber bushings, only more durable. Having ran my rear with boxed lowers / stock uppers and fresh rubber all the way around for a while, I can attest to that being a very well functioning setup. Nice, smooth, and predictable. A tiny bit of lateral "squirm" of the rear end on turn-in, but once it took a set it was very predictable. The squirm on turn-in was disconcerting though, which is why I changed to my current GW/Edelbrock setup. I'm supposing you could tune that squirm out with the circle track pieces by playing with bushing firmness, namley in the upper arms since they control the lateral movement of the rear end.

Happen to have a link for the circle track bushings? I'm not going to run out and switch (I'm running spherical joints, Johnny Joints, and rubber) but I'd love to see it just so I'm armed with more product knowledge!

Troy