Alignment problems with Speed Tech control arms [Archive]

LSXZ28

08-26-2009, 07:59 AM

I recently installed Speed Tech upper and lower control arms on my 1980 Z28, along with Summit Racing 1-1/2" lowering springs. I took it to two different alignment places and they are saying they can't align it because even with the shaft offset correctly and no shims, the camber is still off (top of the wheels still tilted in).

I tried calling Speed Tech, but the guy I need to talk to is out all week...

Anyone else have this problem? I hope there is a good answer after dropping so much of my hard-earned money on these parts...

Vegas69

08-26-2009, 08:37 AM

How much negative camber does it have with no shims?

killer69

08-26-2009, 08:48 AM

John Wright

08-26-2009, 08:50 AM

LSXZ28

08-26-2009, 09:53 AM

These arms have been installed on hundreds of cars, with no issues, except and i'm not pointing fingers or making excuses but the alignment shop has no idea what they are doing or the frame is bent. they always fit in the end.
i received your email but it ended up in the junk box, voice mail sent.
thank you for choosing our product.
call me any time

I called and they said I need to talk to Roger (and he is out all week). I'll give you a ring in a bit Blake! I agree that it is probably the alignment shop, but after two, I was starting to wonder...

LSXZ28

08-26-2009, 02:22 PM

Thanks again Blake for the help! You guys have outstanding customer service! I will set the toe like we talked about and send you some pics... I'll get it to the other alignment shop next week as well and see what they can do...

69LT1Nova

08-26-2009, 02:33 PM

Good ol' Speed Tech. I love my control arms. :)

LSXZ28

08-26-2009, 03:37 PM

Snapped a couple of quick pics to show the camber and stance. It seems like the driver's side is straight, but the passenger side is still negative camber. Sorry about the shadows, this was spur of the moment.

I think I want the back down another 1/2" or so...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

John Wright

08-26-2009, 04:42 PM

Is it me or do you have a ton of caster in on the pass side, wheel looks like it is about to rub the rear of the fender liner just sitting there without turning the steering wheel....maybe it's just the lighting in the pic..I dunno. If you go too far with the positive caster the camber gets way out of whack, too far to adjust...unless the arms have a fair amount of caster built in to them.

JRouche

08-26-2009, 06:16 PM

Im missing something. No shims installed. Cant it be shimmed out to give a proper camber? JR

Vegas69

08-26-2009, 07:24 PM

You can run .5-1 degree of negative camber on the street with no problem at all. I agree that the passenger side caster looks waaaaaaaaaay off.

novaderrik

08-26-2009, 07:59 PM

Im missing something. No shims installed. Cant it be shimmed out to give a proper camber? JR
shims move the arm in- it would only make it worse.

LSXZ28

08-27-2009, 02:45 AM

All shims are removed in the pics... and yes, shimming makes the camber more negative. Also, the toe is way out in the pics - with the drivers side wheel straight, the passenger side is visibly turning right (making it closer to the rear inner fender). I need to tape measure set the toe to get it somewhat close first... I'm hoping that brings the passenger side caster a little better. The arms have 5 degrees of caster built in.

Wondering if worn out and crushed body mount bushings could be adding to my issues... those are the only things left that I have not replaced. It doesn't appear that the car has been wrecked, but who knows...

John Wright

08-27-2009, 03:01 AM

Im missing something. No shims installed. Cant it be shimmed out to give a proper camber? JR
The shaft mounts inside the frame rails so more shims makes the camber head off in the wrong direction than he's trying to go. Other cars where the shaft is mounted outside of the frame rails the shims would do as you suggest and move the camber in his direction. But this is a camaro.

John Wright

08-27-2009, 03:04 AM

Also get underneath and take a 5/8" dia dowel or bolt and see if the body alignment holes are aligned so the dowel enters all of them with about the same. That can help you make sure the body is sitting on the subframe fairly square. Body bushings have to be loosened upand body adjusted and squared up if those dowels won't enter the holes cleanly.

JRouche

08-27-2009, 05:04 PM

The shaft mounts inside the frame rails so more shims makes the camber head off in the wrong direction than he's trying to go. Other cars where the shaft is mounted outside of the frame rails the shims would do as you suggest and move the camber in his direction. But this is a camaro.

LOL I knew I was missing something. Thanks. My shafts are on vertical plates, shimming moves the top of the spindle out. As you can see, I dont know jack about camaros :) JR

Tony_SS

08-27-2009, 06:53 PM

Are you sure its not the lowering springs causing the trouble?

2ndgenhunter

08-27-2009, 07:48 PM

Nice car! I am very interested in how it turns out. I am fixing to order a set for my 81 z28.

Vegas69

08-27-2009, 08:08 PM

Yep...your toe needs to be close to start. Otherwise, the average wrench will straigten the wheel and go to town. A tape measure is close enough.

LSXZ28

08-28-2009, 03:02 AM

Are you sure its not the lowering springs causing the trouble?

They aren't helping, that's for sure. Do the coil springs need some time to settle in?

Hopefully I will get a chance to work on it this weekend and see how it is with the toe straightened out a bit.

The biggest problem with working on a 30 year old car is that the more you pull the string, the more you have to do LOL! I'm thinking I should replace the body mount bushings next.

I'm trying to get all of the variables (spring settling, rear ride height) worked out before I take it in for the alignment...

Tony_SS

08-28-2009, 03:29 AM

This all sounds familiar.

When I replaced my front control arms, upper and lower, I did so with a tubular style (like speed tech im guessing?) and I also installed 3" drop springs. I took it up to the rack and the guys could not get it straight for nothing. They had an 1" worth of shims and still no luck.. they said my frame was bent and I knew they were wrong.

The next day I called Marcus at got a set of SPC adj arms and kept my lower tubular arms in place. Took it up a buddy and he was able to dial in .5camber 4.5castor and 1/16 toe.. and that was with the 3" drop springs. It was a whole new car!

Not trying to put down products.. but that's why I like the SPC adjustable arms over the tubular ones. Then again it might not be the arms at all .. it could be the people trying to do the alignment... with their old 'bent frame' excuse.

GetMore

08-28-2009, 03:30 AM

Actually, you should do the body bushings first. When you replace them you might move the subframe, and if the middle ones are compressed more than the rears the subframe will be slightly nose up, adding caster.
Once you replace the bushings you'll eliminate a couple variables and won't need to align it again like you will if you do them after the first alignment.

Steve Chryssos

08-28-2009, 03:59 AM

Find yourself a local road race or oval track chassis shop. Race shops rely more heavily on their brains, experience and hand-taken measurements rather than automated equipment intended for Toyota Camrys. They also understand performance alignments.

A race shop will always start by squaring up your chassis since they are used to dealing with cars that get knocked around. Also google "race car alignment".

killer69

08-28-2009, 09:36 AM

VERY GOOD point Steve.
we see more issues with guys taking their cars to alignment shops that have no idea.

jknight16

08-28-2009, 10:02 AM

This is absolutely true. I went to a regular "recommended" alignment shop and even with my SPC adjustable control arms and at least 2 hours the dipswitch "couldn't figure it out". I gave them my $80 and went about buying equipment to do my own alignments. I'd rather figure it out on my own than pay some lackey to monkey around with a suspension part he doesn't understand. That was one of the most annoying experiences I've had with this car.

Steve's recommendation is good too. When I didn't have the alignment tools I should have just taken it to a roundy round shop. I'll bet they would have no problem "figuring it out".

John Wright

08-28-2009, 10:16 AM

Take a look here...

http://www.nastyz28.com/~Todd80Z28/project_pages/alignment.htm

John Wright

08-31-2009, 06:17 AM

Bump...how did this alignment turn out?

LSXZ28

08-31-2009, 02:34 PM

Bump...how did this alignment turn out?

I haven't had a chance to work on it yet. Family stuff got in the way...

Twentyover

08-31-2009, 03:13 PM

I haven't had a chance to work on it yet. Family stuff got in the way...

May I suggest tying them up and locking them in the closet? That's how i get my free time.....

6'9"Witha69

08-31-2009, 03:18 PM

May I suggest tying them up and locking them in the closet? That's how i get my free time.....
That's your answer to everything today!

Twentyover

08-31-2009, 05:25 PM

That's your answer to everything today!

When something works, you stick with it....

John Wright

09-01-2009, 02:54 AM

I haven't had a chance to work on it yet. Family stuff got in the way...
LOL.....I know how that goes. Family comes first.

LSXZ28

09-06-2009, 09:56 AM

Well, I took a look at it this morning. I am definitely going to replace the body bushings next - it looks like the middle passenger one is smashed more than the others and causing the subframe to be twisted. I think that is part of my problem. It also looks like the bolts are not straight, so I think the subframe is shifting around some.

I still think the springs are too low and are causing most of my camber issues - wish I hadn't tried to save a buck by buying the Summit ones - should have gotten hotchkis or something... I'm sure when I put the aluminum LS1 in it, it will come up some, but that's gonna be awhile...

LSXZ28

09-20-2009, 02:41 PM

My wife and I spent most of the day yesterday putting GW aluminum subframe/body bushings in... what a job! Both driver side cage nuts came loose, so we pulled the inner fender for the middle one, and took out the driver seat and used a holesaw to cut a hole out over the back one. Now all 6 are new.

So that is the last of the suspension/chassis to replace. And still the car seems somewhat lower on the passenger side than the drivers side... really starting to think this thing was wrecked at one point. I'm going to take it soon and try to get it aligned - might take it to a place with a frame machine in case it is twisted...