candid wheel talk [Archive]

FirstGenZq8

06-09-2009, 02:43 PM

all pricing based on FOUR 18" wheels. shipping not included.

example of $XXXX cast aluminum wheels: coys C5 pictured
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://www.coyswheel.com/coys.html)

example of $XXXX 2 piece billet forged wheels: centerline retro pictured
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://centerlinewheels.com/wheels_detail.php?mw_id=35&sw_id=461)

example of $XXXX 2 piece billet forged wheels: intro 5 star
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://www.introwheels.com/endless_5_star_1.shtml)

example of $XXXX 2 piece billet forged wheels: budnik M5 pictured
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://www.budnik.com/roadwheelitem.asp?scid=53&pid=698&pg=3)

example of $XXXX 2 piece billet forged wheels: rushforth fuel pictured
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://www.rushforthwheels.com/view/Fuel)

example of $XXXX 3 piece billet forged wheels: CCW classic pictured
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://www.ccwheel.com/files/wheelprofiles-display.php?id=Classic)

example of $XXXX 3 piece billet forged wheels: fesler FS 904
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://www.shop.feslerbuilt.com/category.sc?categoryId=2)

these are just a few examples i cooked up.

why is there such a price disparity between the centerline retro and the upper echelon 2 piece rushforth fuel? they're both T-6061 2 piece welded wheels, correct? how can centerline and intro charge less?

how can CCW charge $XXXX for classics and no other 3 piece wheel company can touch that? wouldn't you want to try to get down to that price to drum up business? is business good enough as it is and you don't need to lower your prices?

i know that the price of 3 piece wheels can get lower, especially when i see messages on sponsors websites such as "Help contribute to our retirement, shop the [company name removed] Store".

constructive thoughts?

Boesch

06-09-2009, 02:53 PM

2Bad4Ya

06-09-2009, 03:01 PM

One of the main factors contributing to the price differences is the style of rim hoop. Different rim hoops have different costs associated with them. Our Endless series are a lot cheaper than our other series because they use a stepped lip rim hoop rather than the smooth lip.

Interesting, I never thought on the lip rims being a cost factor. I guess seeing shops like Coys putting the smooth lip rims on their cast wheels makes you forget about the lip difference affecting cost.

Boesch

06-09-2009, 03:03 PM

Interesting, I never thought on the lip rims being a cost factor. I guess seeing shops like Coys putting the smooth lip rims on their cast wheels makes you forget about the lip difference affecting cost.

You're assuming that all wheel hoops come from the same source and cost the same which is not true.

Damn True

06-09-2009, 03:13 PM

So is the process of making one hoop vs another dramatically different? What accounts for the disparity?

Boesch

06-09-2009, 03:14 PM

The country in which they are made has an affect on price and also on quality.

DriverzInc

06-09-2009, 03:59 PM

There are so many contributing factors that we can probably hold a class on this subject.

First, you can remove that Coys wheel right away. If you don't know the difference between cast and billet wheels, you need to so some more homework. Coys are cast, one piece, and brought over by the boat load from China. The backspace, is pre-determined, and can only be changed by the manufacturer by milling down the pad and drilling the bolt patterns post casting, and upon their arrival here in the states.

Here are some other contributing factors:

One, like Boesch mentioned, outers will vary in cost based on size, soft lip, step lip, country of origin, cost of aluminum, and varying costs from the manufacturer of the outer.

Two, not all wheels are machine the same. Some wheels have more detail in their machining. Ball milling, lathe operations, lug nut detail, center cap detail, bore sizes, all equal a set amount of time in the mill. Mill time = $. Plain and simple.

Three, 3pc wheels (which I've explained before) take more inventory parts to produce. Manufacturers are having to inventory three piece rim shells in every width and diameter size, to make up the same with wheel, based on wheel offsets and rim widths ordered. 3pc hardware is also not cheap, and at 40 nuts and bolts per wheel, they add up quickly. Also, most three piece wheels are offered in standard finishes of chrome, or powder coat, which is an added operation and cost to manufacturing anything.

You should do a little more homework when comparing apples to apples here too.

Budnik M5: Retail: 573.75ea direct from Budnik: 2295/set.
Rushforth Fuel: 595.75ea direct from Rushforth: 2383/set.
Intro Pentia: 598.75ea direct from Intro: 2395/set.

These are more similar wheels than the examples above.

If you think you can do it cheaper, I again beg anyone to start your own wheel business and try. I can tell you first hand, its not all champagne and velvet robes.

Damn True

06-09-2009, 04:06 PM

I don't think anyone is suggesting gouging. Just trying to understand what makes two apparently similar (to someone that doesn't know how wheels are made) wheels very dissimilar in price.

FirstGenZq8

06-09-2009, 05:34 PM

thank you Boesch, that is something i didn't know.

There are so many contributing factors that we can probably hold a class on this subject.

exactly why i started this thread, to get answers to questions.

First, you can remove that Coys wheel right away. If you don't know the difference between cast and billet wheels, you need to so some more homework.

i've done my homework better than most. re-read post #1. i'll copy and paste for you.

example of $1000 cast aluminum wheels: coys C5 pictured

i know that coys are cast, one piece, chinese crap wheels that weigh a ton. i listed them for one reason: context.

One, like Boesch mentioned, outers will vary in cost based on size, soft lip, step lip, country of origin, cost of aluminum, and varying costs from the manufacturer of the outer.

understood.

Two, not all wheels are machine the same. Some wheels have more detail in their machining. Ball milling, lathe operations, lug nut detail, center cap detail, bore sizes, all equal a set amount of time in the mill. Mill time = $. Plain and simple.

understood.

Three, 3pc wheels (which I've explained before) take more inventory parts to produce. Manufacturers are having to inventory three piece rim shells in every width and diameter size, to make up the same with wheel, based on wheel offsets and rim widths ordered. 3pc hardware is also not cheap, and at 40 nuts and bolts per wheel, they add up quickly. Also, most three piece wheels are offered in standard finishes of chrome, or powder coat, which is an added operation and cost to manufacturing anything.

i know you've explained this before, and i appreciate both your first explaination and this current conversation we're having. i understand that stocking inventory of rim halves, hardware, silicone, etc. can be costly. how can CCW do it cheaper then? do they buy thousands of rim halves all at once? do they know something you don't?

You should do a little more homework when comparing apples to apples here too.

Budnik M5: Retail: 573.75ea direct from Budnik: 2295/set.
Rushforth Fuel: 595.75ea direct from Rushforth: 2383/set.
Intro Pentia: 598.75ea direct from Intro: 2395/set.

These are more similar wheels than the examples above.

no need for the condescending tone, jon. i have been doing my wheel homework for over 3 years. the prices in my first post reflect quotes i have gathered from vendors ON THIS WEBSITE. there's no way in hell i'd pay $2300 for budnik M5s when i can get them from a shop located in paradise for $2000.

If you think you can do it cheaper, I again beg anyone to start your own wheel business and try. I can tell you first hand, its not all champagne and velvet robes.

i've never liked this answer. to me it's a cop out. i couldn't start my own wheel company and make it cheaper. but other businesses out there ARE doing it cheaper, and all i'm trying to figure out...is how :idea:.

lower90xcab

06-09-2009, 06:14 PM

great topic joe, im currently wheel in the buying market...i also believe its hard to understand the prices of wheels....

Boesch

06-09-2009, 08:42 PM

i know you've explained this before, and i appreciate both your first explaination and this current conversation we're having. i understand that stocking inventory of rim halves, hardware, silicone, etc. can be costly. how can CCW do it cheaper then? do they buy thousands of rim halves all at once? do they know something you don't?

Note that only the CCW classic's are that price. If you go to one of the other styles the price goes up. The difference comes in for the increased cut times for more intricate designs. They also used a stepped lip in that series. Similar reasons why our Endless series are cheaper than our Exposed series.

FirstGenZq8

06-10-2009, 06:01 AM

Note that only the CCW classic's are that price. If you go to one of the other styles the price goes up. The difference comes in for the increased cut times for more intricate designs. They also used a stepped lip in that series. Similar reasons why our Endless series are cheaper than our Exposed series.

but it seems to me that the face of the CCW classic would take longer to cut than say a five spoke. also, the stepped lip argument is a strange one to me when step lipped 18" forgelines cost $3350 HERE (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47827&highlight=forgeline+step+lip). assuming you can even get the pricing listed in that thread for 18" forgeline step lipped wheels, what makes them cost $950 more than the step lipped CCW classic? does the extra machining cost $950 more than the CCW classic?

forgeline S03 step lip pictured
$3350
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://www.forgeline.com/products/performance-series-step-lip/17inch-and-18inch-performance-series/s03.html)

VS

CCW classic step lip pictured
$2400
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://www.ccwheel.com/files/wheelprofiles-display.php?id=Classic)

what about HRE's stepped lipped series seen HERE (http://www.hrewheels.com/wheels/series.php?q=/COMP/COMP95/)? i'll be honest and say that i don't know their cost, but i'm sure it's more than 3K.

it's been asked before, "where's my money going?"

Boesch

06-10-2009, 06:20 AM

Our pricing is directly in line or better for a comparable wheel from CCW. If you take a look at the SP/Tapered series you'll be in a comparable wheel line.

I don't know why the CCW classic series are priced lower because I don't have access to one of them to take a look at it in person. Number of spokes doesn't indicate machine time. It's the small details and extra engineering that costs more. I'm also not aware which hoops are being used in that series. There's obviously a reason CCW charges more for one wheel series than another.

Boesch

06-10-2009, 06:33 AM

Think of wheels similar to buying a new GMC truck. (I've been researching buying a new pickup, thus this works well for me) There's a bottom of the line GMC truck. It comes with the smallest motor, vinyl seats, crank up windows, etc. Then there's your midline with cloth seats, carpet, larger motor, power windows and locks. Then there's a higher end model that adds leather, navigation, even bigger motor, etc. An lastly there's a Denali model that's a bit over the top and has all the bells and whistles.

At the end of the day every single one of the above are GMC trucks. The low end model is probably about half the cost of the high end model. There's a reason. If GMC could sell the Denali model for the price of the low end model, every single one of us would be driving a Denali.

So now let's look at the Dodge, Ford, Chevrolet, GMC all together. Some of them start at a lower price, some of them go up to a higher price, but if you look at comparable vehicles from each of them, the price is pretty much about the same for comparable trucks. In my searching I've found that there's not one that is significantly cheaper than the others. It all comes down to how many bells and whistles you want and which style you like better.

Steve1968LS2

06-10-2009, 07:01 AM

but it seems to me that the face of the CCW classic would take longer to cut than say a five spoke. also, the stepped lip argument is a strange one to me when step lipped 18" forgelines cost $3350 HERE (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47827&highlight=forgeline+step+lip). assuming you can even get the pricing listed in that thread for 18" forgeline step lipped wheels, what makes them cost $950 more than the step lipped CCW classic? does the extra machining cost $950 more than the CCW classic?

forgeline S03 step lip pictured
$3350
[/URL]

VS

CCW classic step lip pictured
$2400
[URL="http://www.ccwheel.com/files/wheelprofiles-display.php?id=Classic"] (http://www.forgeline.com/products/performance-series-step-lip/17inch-and-18inch-performance-series/s03.html)

what about HRE's stepped lipped series seen HERE (http://www.hrewheels.com/wheels/series.php?q=/COMP/COMP95/)? i'll be honest and say that i don't know their cost, but i'm sure it's more than 3K.

it's been asked before, "where's my money going?"

Sorry, I don't see the level of detail in the CCW wheel that I see in the forgeline. It's something that's hard to see in a picture but I've noticed in person.

Like with FIKSE.. the Forgelines have much nicer edge profiles than the CCW wheels. Not to bag on CCW, it's a great lower cost option, but I've always seen them as more of a race wheel than a "pretty" wheel.

Like I said, this is just my opinion for dealing with both wheels quite a bit.

Steve1968LS2

06-10-2009, 07:03 AM

I don't know why the CCW classic series are priced lower because I don't have access to one of them to take a look at it in person. Number of spokes doesn't indicate machine time. It's the small details and extra engineering that costs more. I'm also not aware which hoops are being used in that series. There's obviously a reason CCW charges more for one wheel series than another.

Bingo.. there's a lot more machine time/design time in a Intro/Fikse/Forgeline than in a CCW wheel and time is money.

Yea, I would be interested in hoop design as well.. materials and how it's made (cast, spun, etc)

Boesch

06-10-2009, 07:15 AM

So if you're talking three piece wheels, here's a list of things that can contribute to cost. I think this is the type of thing you're after:

Wheel profile - thicker spokes with more curves requires a thicker forging which is more raw material costs and then also more machining time to cut the windows.

Wheel finish - are powdercoating and other optional finishes included or do you have to pay extra. Some companies choose to charge extra for them while others just have one flat rate

Wheel width - some companies vary cost by width and others have more of a flat rate

Rim hoop construction and materials - what material is is made from and where is it manufactured

Wheel hardware - the bolts that hold the three piece together. What material are they made from, steel, titanium. What style head do the bolts have. What's the finish of the material, raw or polished.

Wheel machine time - how much finishing detail is put into the machining. Are there a lot of details where the spokes go to the hoop, around the windows, and near the center cap.

Machine time for center cap - how much machine time is invested to allow for the installation of the cap.

Polishing - How well is the polishing done. Are the sides of the spokes polished? What's the surface finish like on the side of the spokes. Aggressive machining can lead to reduced machine time but also a poor surface finish.

FirstGenZq8

06-10-2009, 07:36 AM

not all wheels are machine the same. Some wheels have more detail in their machining. Ball milling, lathe operations, lug nut detail, center cap detail, bore sizes, all equal a set amount of time in the mill. Mill time = $. Plain and simple.

mill time = $$$. i get that. is mill/lathe time quantifiable? probably not. but $1000 or more? $2000 more? $6000 total for these wheels HERE (http://www.kennedyperformanceracing.com/content/wheels.html)? why?

instead of "where's my money going?" maybe the question should be "why do wheel companies charge so much for these things?". i'm starting to think the answer is "because people are willing to pay too much."

Bingo.. there's a lot more machine time/design time in a Intro/Fikse/Forgeline than in a CCW wheel and time is money.

a wheel is designed in CAD or a similar program. say it took someone 200 hours to design the CCW classic wheel face. it took someone 500 hours to design the forgeline S03 wheel face. i can see why price would increase in this instance. but it can't take much longer if any time longer for a lathe to cut out one wheel face VS another. so the price difference between 3 piece wheels still doesn't jive w/ me.

if i'm beating a dead horse and i need to just stop asking questions just let me know :enguard:.

gearheads78

06-10-2009, 07:40 AM

71CamaroSS

06-10-2009, 07:44 AM

Are you planning on writing a thesis about wheels?

71CamaroSS

06-10-2009, 07:47 AM

Agree with gearheads78.......Also if Rushforth, HRE, Forgline exc. exc. were cheap i wouldn't have them.......becase everyone else would!

buickfunnycar.com

06-10-2009, 08:07 AM

This tread is pointless IMO. We still are a capitalist country (for now anyway) If someone does not like the price don't buy it. If enough people don't buy it then the company goes out of business.

The best statement in the thread is the one about if you think you can do better then hop out there and start your own company. Check back with us after you price out a couple CNC machines.:)

I wouldn't say pointless,I found it to be an interesting read as I've always wondered too why certain wheels are priced where they are...but I will agree with your last point 100%,good luck trying to compete in this arena.:enguard:

FirstGenZq8

06-10-2009, 08:11 AM

enjoying those intros, richard? lulz.

This tread is pointless IMO. We still are a capitalist country (for now anyway) If someone does not like the price don't buy it. If enough people don't buy it then the company goes out of business.

actually my hope would be that the company stays in business, but adjusts their pricing to more accurate levels :idea:.

Agree with gearheads78.......Also if Rushforth, HRE, Forgline exc. exc. were cheap i wouldn't have them.......becase everyone else would!

i'm all about exclusivity! i have set a budget of $2500-$3000 for wheels, not including tires. it's sponsors like Boesch and DriverzInc that i'll more than likely buy my wheels from, because they have the stones to come in threads like these and answer tough questions. now if only i could get them to give me the weights of certain wheels, like CCW has on their website, they'd be at the top of my list.

to pay 3K for a set of wheels and not know their weight bothers me.

buickfunnycar.com

06-10-2009, 08:22 AM

to pay 3K for a set of wheels and not know their weight bothers me.

totally understood...

Damn True

06-10-2009, 08:43 AM

Don't understand the obfuscation and indignation in response to what seems a pretty legit question.

DriverzInc

06-10-2009, 09:14 AM

One thing is for sure, use the manufacturers MSRP as your medium, not what dealers may be quoting you as a discounted price.

gearheads78

06-10-2009, 09:23 AM

enjoying those intros, richard? lulz.

I assume that was an attempt at an insult???

Anyway yes I am. I bought the extact wheel I wanted after looking at 100s of wheels that fit my budget. They gave me the look I was after for my car. Are they 2 lbs lighter or 2 lbs heavier than another brand? Probably but I don't care. I not out racing with a convertible. I was building a cruizer that can turn a corner like a modern car and it does what I want it to.

Don't understand the obfuscation and indignation in response to what seems a pretty legit question.

I still say what does it matter. Maybe Centerline paid for thier building 30 years ago and have a lot less overhead.

The bottom line is a business is there to make a profit. I know thats a dirty word this day in age but it is what it is. If company's business model cost them a certain amount to produce a product they have to price it to keep the doors open. If they price it to high then the market votes by not purchasing the product.

There is so many variables that can be part of a business. The payrole, workers comp insurance, equipment, tranportation, building, property taxes ect all are different at different companies.

Sorry but this is a hot button with me. It almost sound like some of you are saying its unfair because you can not buy a one companies product for the price you can buy another companies product. The next thing you know people will want the government taking over busin.......... Ah never mind.

parsonsj

06-10-2009, 09:37 AM

actually my hope would be that the company stays in business, but adjusts their pricing to more accurate levels I may be reading this comment wrong, but it seems insincere. I get the vibe that what you are really doing is complaining about the high cost of 3 piece wheels. Your questions have been answered in several ways by several people, but you keep asking for more detail.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong...

jp

Damn True

06-10-2009, 09:45 AM

I assume that was an attempt at an insult???

Anyway yes I am. I bought the extact wheel I wanted after looking at 100s of wheels that fit my budget. They gave me the look I was after for my car. Are they 2 lbs lighter or 2 lbs heavier than another brand? Probably but I don't care. I not out racing with a convertible. I was building a cruizer that can turn a corner like a modern car and it does what I want it to.

I still say what does it matter. Maybe Centerline paid for thier building 30 years ago and have a lot less overhead.

The bottom line is a business is there to make a profit. I know thats a dirty word this day in age but it is what it is. If company's business model cost them a certain amount to produce a product they have to price it to keep the doors open. If they price it to high then the market votes by not purchasing the product.

There is so many variables that can be part of a business. The payrole, workers comp insurance, equipment, tranportation, building, property taxes ect all are different at different companies.

Sorry but this is a hot button with me. It almost sound like some of you are saying its unfair because you can not buy a one companies product for the price you can buy another companies product. The next thing you know people will want the government taking over busin.......... Ah never mind.

You have totally and completely missed the point. Nobody is trying to deny a company profit. Least of all me. They want to understand where the value in one product is vs another. I don't mind paying more for one product over another, but the vendor better damn well make a case that proves to me that I am getting something better for my money with their product than I am for a less expensive alternative. "Exclusivity" IMO does not qualify as such.

If product "A" requires 6 additional machining steps, uses a material that is 10% more expensive, is lighter or stronger and is manufactured in Indiana instead of Chengdu, China then the vendor has made a very good case for charging more for a product.

If their only response is to get indignant with people who ask "why" or say "they are different" they have not made a case for producing a better product or providing more value. They've obfuscated and that makes them look shady.

parsonsj

06-10-2009, 09:53 AM

I come at this whole deal from a different perspective, and I think others are on this wavelength too: if a wheel is too expensive for my budget, I can do one of two thing:
1. Readjust my budget. Figure out if I really really want that wheel, and if I can somehow find the delta cash needed.
2. Look for a wheel at a lower cost.

I don't think any vendor owes a cost breakdown to a consumer, just a normal marketing pitch: "My wheels are 10% lighter. Or I can set you up in 1/8" backspacing increments." Asking a vendor to provide cost breakdown numbers is asking for proprietary data, and I believe most vendors won't take that request seriously.

jp

Damn True

06-10-2009, 10:01 AM

The conversation should go like this:

Customer: "Hey, I really like that new slappy-doo-dah wheel."
Vendor: "Thanks, we worked really hard on them."
Customer: "So how much are they for an 18x9.5?"
Vendor: "$1500 per."
Customer: "Gulp, that's more than I had in mind, and $x more than product X which is pretty similar."
Vendor: "Yeah, I understand that's a lot. But, there is value in that. They do "look" similar, but we use a material that is 10% stronger than product X and it's a bit lighter too. Plus, we can offer you more offset options and an extra year of warranty on materials and workmanship. So while you are spending more, you are getting more too."

I don't think that's too much to ask, and the vendor isn't giving away any trade secrets in making a case for more value.

I mean, if you asked Rockland Standard to list the upgrades over stock for their Tranzilla and they responded "Well, they are just different" or "it's complicated" or "well, you aren't going to see a transmission like this in every car on the road" and still asked you to pay the upcharge.....would you?

parsonsj

06-10-2009, 10:27 AM

We agree. What I was calling the standard marketing pitch is exemplified by:

Vendor: "Yeah, I understand that's a lot. But, there is value in that. They do "look" similar, but we use a material that is 10% stronger than product X and it's a bit lighter too. Plus, we can offer you more offset options and an extra year of warranty on materials and workmanship. So while you are spending more, you are getting more too."

jp

armourmark

06-10-2009, 10:46 AM

the pricing is reflected in "perceived value"

FirstGenZq8

06-10-2009, 11:34 AM

I assume that was an attempt at an insult???

richard, i'm sorry if you read what i posted as an insult. i should have used a smiley. i'm not hating on the fact that you have intros; the fact of the matter is they are on my short list (4th place currently if you'd like to know).

The bottom line is a business is there to make a profit. I know thats a dirty word this day in age but it is what it is.

i'm all for making money. i'm just trying to ascertain if gouging exists in the wheels business just as much as it does in other businesses.

It almost sound like some of you are saying its unfair because you can not buy a one companies product for the price you can buy another companies product.

not at all. true said it better than i did; i mirror his thoughts pretty closely.

I may be reading this comment wrong, but it seems insincere. I get the vibe that what you are really doing is complaining about the high cost of 3 piece wheels.

kinda, but not really, because when it comes down to it i am going to get some expensive ass wheels fairly soon. if i have to pay 3K for them then i damn well better know the full story on my product.

Your questions have been answered in several ways by several people, but you keep asking for more detail.

again, kinda, but manufacturers and vendors are very careful in their answers and they seem to skirt them to some degree. notice that you say i keep asking for more detail (and not asking the same question twice)...you're right, i am asking for more detail. i'm trying to ascertain value. i started this "candid" thread to try and get some insights into wheel pricing, and those secrets look to be impossible to get since many answers are roundabout.

I come at this whole deal from a different perspective, and I think others are on this wavelength too

i see your point of view, i do. but just as many people are on my wavelength as well.

I don't think any vendor owes a cost breakdown to a consumer, just a normal marketing pitch: "My wheels are 10% lighter. Or I can set you up in 1/8" backspacing increments." Asking a vendor to provide cost breakdown numbers is asking for proprietary data, and I believe most vendors won't take that request seriously.

i agree to a point. an example:

i recently was researching electric water pumps for my LT1. the three that are used most heavily are a summit racing (knock off) brand, a CSR, and a meziere. prices are below:

SUM-314351 $179.95
CSR Performance 901LT1 $182.95
Meziere Enterprises WP118HD $269.95

the summit pump moves 30 gpm, the CSR 30-37, and the meziere 55 gpm. it is safe to assume, at these "low" costs ("low" is subjective), that the meziere costs more because it moves more gpm. but i also think it is safe to assume that they're charging more for their name. they've been in business longer and they have a reputation for excellent products, so you know when you pay a premium for it you're paying for it's ability to move more gpm and you're paying for the name on the pump.

now when it comes to $3K+ wheels, it gets harder to quantify one company's product VS another. things like MOI (keep MOI talk in its respective threads), weight (again, keep wheel weight talk in its respective threads), materials, lathe time, hand polish, hand assembly, and many other countless factors come into play.

does what i'm asking for verge on the edge of trade secrets? maybe. but i've got to know why brand x's wheels cost $200, $400, $1000, or $3000 more than brand y's. and it may boil down to "they just do", which i will eventually have to swallow and move on with, but up until the day i buy wheels i will continue asking the question.

parsonsj

06-10-2009, 11:37 AM

does what i'm asking for verge on the edge of trade secrets? maybe. but i've got to know why brand x's wheels cost $200, $400, $1000, or $3000 more than brand y's. and it may boil down to "they just do", which i will eventually have to swallow and move on with, but up until the day i buy wheels i will continue asking the question.Ask away then. Just don't get annoyed if vendors ignore you, and other members grow weary of it.

jp

gearheads78

06-10-2009, 11:49 AM

richard, i'm sorry if you read what i posted as an insult. i should have used a smiley. i'm not hating on the fact that you have intros; the fact of the matter is they are on my short list (4th place currently if you'd like to know).

10-4 Apology accepted. Sometimes its hard to "hear" a person's tone through type. The rest we will just have to agree to disagree :)

FirstGenZq8

06-10-2009, 12:03 PM

Ask away then. Just don't get annoyed if vendors ignore you, and other members grow weary of it.

i'm pretty sure if i haven't annoyed them in the past, this thread should put the final nail in my coffin :doh:.

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/search.php?searchid=1172227

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/search.php?searchid=1172237

as much as i start these kinds of threads for me i am honestly doing it for the benefit of all.

oestek

06-10-2009, 12:07 PM

It's true that a manufacturer can charge whatever they want for their products.

Vegas69

06-10-2009, 12:09 PM

It's pretty simple really. You need to lay your own eyes and hands on a set of Forgelines and you will understand why they are more than most.

Nine Ball

06-10-2009, 12:48 PM

Since nobody else has said it, and it seems that a few would not bring up the subject for whatever reason....

SUPPLY vs DEMAND & NAME BRANDING

Those are also two key factors to determine pricing. Does higher pricing automatically mean higher quality? Hell no. There are some ghetto fabulous 1-piece Taiwan chrome junk wheels selling for as much as multi-piece forged wheels. Name brand drives those prices. Just like anything else, brand names DO matter to some people. Watches, cars, clothing, etc... Well, wheels also follow this pattern.

I carry a range of brands, but try to avoid cheaper cast wheels. I prefer to help people find custom wheels that match their car perfectly, and I don't like the cookie-cutter cheap cast wheels that most people settle for. To me, wheels and stance are THE most important aspects of a vehicle. Even more important than paint! Don't skimp on the wheels, they set the attitude of your car. I can make a primered rust bucket look kick ass with the right stance and wheels, but I can also ruin the look of a car with a $50,000 paint job just by choosing the wrong wheels. Wheels are more important than anything when it comes to visuals. I tell people to budget accordingly.

Tony

dmc69

06-10-2009, 02:47 PM

Good topic. Wish it was posted about 2 weeks ago as i just dropped $2??? on a set of Boze Wheels :) Nine ball I had that same thought exactly, Supply Vs. Demand and the quality(brandname) of the product. I agree that as a consumer you want to be sold, and feel good about spending the 3k on a set of wheels, but on the other hand you get what your willing to pay for. Benz or BMW, Polo, Nike, Rolex??? There are some notable differences but at the end of the day its really about getting what you want and either making it fit within your budget or reevaluating the budget to make it fit what you want. I like the responses though :enguard:good to see the different opninions on this topic, Especially when there are so many different types of budgets on our projects.

Damn True

06-10-2009, 03:57 PM

street3285

06-10-2009, 04:02 PM

For me, I would be willing to pay more for a set of wheels based on design, considering construction and material being the same.

Some people just want the certain name brand of a wheel...... Brand names cost more for a reason.... better quality product. That is partly how they got to be a name brand.

When looking at different wheels, things to maybe consider:

Polishing
Can you see machine marks?
The quality of weld on the backside (2 pc.)
How detailed is the design?
Center cap aluminum or plastic?
Stepped or Smooth lip?
Backspace Incriments
Large caliper clearance
Custom finishes
Customer service
Mounting hardware included?

I am sure there are more.

BRIAN

06-10-2009, 04:41 PM

I think the idea of every wheel being sold at the same price point just because it is of comparable design is missing a big point....this is the USA (at least in some aspects) and companies are selling to a particular market. The market decides the price not the design. Will people pay more for exclusivity or based on the design or mfg cost?

I would bet that out of the wheel Co's mentioned there are at least 1/2 that mfg other lines or are being mfg by other Co's. Their pricing is also different in regards to the specific line not the design.

You are the one to decide if that HRE emblem is worth the money. Heck look on EBAY there are $13k wheels targeted at the Lambo crowd that I gaurantee would not sell for more than $3k a set.

Does design and quality add to value?? i hope so but it is up to you to do the homeowork and not wind up with a set of $5k cast Chinese made wheels.

To the wheel Co's with all the slap together cars I would think some advertising directed at explaining why your wheels are better might help with confusion and sales especially to those that do not see a different between Coy's 5 spokes and say a Intro 5 spoke wheel. Why not explain load ratings and what is in your design or construction that helps justify it's cost.

Good topic but I think you are just at the point where the info you are seeking is trade related and if you want in pay up!!

Good luck.

FirstGenZq8

06-20-2009, 08:58 PM

more insights from the COO of HRE. good thread, good read: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/wheels-tires/157195-barrels-3-piece-wheels-forged.html

FirstGenZq8

06-20-2009, 09:28 PM

sort of a new topic to this thread:

it's not clear to me exactly what Aluminum Precision Products supplies to most high end wheel manufacturers.

http://www.aluminumprecision.com/

is it the wheel barrels, the wheel hardware, the wheel faces, or a little bit of this and a little bit of that?

camaro2nv

06-20-2009, 10:04 PM

I ran a high end wheel shop. I can tell you that if your paying over 2k a wheel for three piece your paying too much. Even our pro ball players never paid over 2k a wheel.
I own a set of http://forgiato.com/ These wheel are top of the line. You can get them in MANY options that other companies dont offer. That said a set of 20's will cost ya about 1500.00 per rim. That also depends on what shop you go to,lol.

camaro2nv

06-20-2009, 10:13 PM

Edit, I dont want to throw any vendors under the bus so Ill keep my thoughts to myself. I think if your in the market to buy wheels, SHOP EM! In the economy we're in there are vendors willing to hook you up.

FirstGenZq8

06-26-2009, 09:18 PM

FirstGenZq8

06-26-2009, 09:20 PM

does anybody know what this manufacturer is playing at?

http://www.andswisswheels.com/
http://www.klassforgedwheels.com/
http://www.marionforgedwheels.com/

i know i've seen a couple more identical sites. why would a manufacturer split their line like this? or rather, is there a reason to not even try to differentiate the websites?

Bad94

06-27-2009, 05:07 AM

Im sorry but if you like a wheel and you can get it the way you want it, you will save up to buy that wheel.

Ishmael

06-27-2009, 05:56 AM

Isn't Joe, as a consumer, entitled to the information? That siad, since these guys have given you the information they can and would have to resort to speculation in norder to go further, why not go to the source and ask the actual companies and let us know their answer?

street3285

06-28-2009, 12:28 PM

I don't understand the big interest in what goes on in the wheel business.... who supplies who with what, how may times a month, etc.... Does it really matter what APP supplies to the companies?

Find a wheel you like, contact them to find out about quality and compare the wheels to the others you are interested in buying.

lnirenberg

06-28-2009, 01:38 PM

minendrews68

06-28-2009, 07:29 PM

OK, enough is enough. I guess if Rushforth, Fiske, and everyone else that has the "unique" wheels were to drop their prices to just below half what they cost to manufacture, paid shipping to wherever, and threw in a set of tires if you bought four wheels, then would everyone be happy? Like it's been said I can understand why someone would want to know why one wheel costs more than another for curiousity sakes, but if a wheel is made in China ( where production costs are extremely low, available everywhere by the wadzoos, and are sold by the thousands, it only stands to reason that they are going to be somewhat cheaper) I mean there is power in numbers (quantity), but as it's been said before if anyone thinks they're too high, this being a free country, don't buy them! Not trying to step on anyone's toes, or make anyone angry but this horse has been beat long enough IMO.

lnirenberg

06-29-2009, 03:02 AM

1offwizard

06-29-2009, 04:39 PM

Being a very small player in this industry I will give you my take on cost and quality. They tend to innertwine to some degree.
The main difference in a forged 2-3 piece wheel and a cast 1-2 piece wheel is the process in which it is made.

A forged center is made from a billet slug that is heated red hot and then slammed between 2 dies to create a "near net forging". This process compresses the molecules in the metal and makes it stronger. (at least that is what I was told) After the billet chunk has become a "near net forging" (basic shape of finished center) it is then turned on a lathe to create the center profile. After the center profile is created, then it is off to the mill to have the design cut into it. Then polish and assembly.

On a cast wheel or center, the metal is liquified and poured into a mold. After the casting is removed from the mold it is then machined on some surfaces to maintain tolerences, for looks, and to add bolt patterns. Then the desired finish is applied.

In my opinion, it is very difficult to create a casting without air pockets. I have machined a very large number of cast items as well as forged items and in my experience I have never found a pocket in a forged item. I have, however, experienced many castings with pores or air pockets. This is my reason for believing forged is a better product than cast.

When comparing apples to apples as far as materials go, you have to add in machining processes when looking at cost. The materials may be the same, but if you add in 1 more machining process the price can be greatly affected. Also, if the center has to be machined on a 5 axis machine to get the design, the price will be higher because in most shops a 5-axis machine demands more $'s per hour than a 3-axis because of machine costs.

Some companies even have a patented polishing process. This could also incur more cost to the company and is passed on to the consumer.

I'm sure there are many other reasons I am not listing, but these are some of the things that I have ran into in my years in machining. I hope this helps some to go ahead and pull the plug and order those wheels!

FirstGenZq8

06-29-2009, 06:58 PM

excellent posts everybody! thank you all for posting; i and many others have learned a LOT from this thread.

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=56728

so, how about a new comparo? i won't list prices, but i'll list them in order of least expensive to most expensive.

work VS-XX
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

ID luxury 313
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/wheel_313_150-1.jpg (http://www.idluxurywheels.com/313_1.shtmlDPE R16[/B]
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/mainphpg2_viewcoreDownloadItemg2_itemId5-1.jpg

HRE 540R
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I don't understand the big interest in what goes on in the wheel business.... who supplies who with what, how may times a month, etc.... Does it really matter what APP supplies to the companies?

YES! because APP supplies shells to 99% of the manufacturers. that means most 3 piece wheels are using the exact same shells. most even use the exact same hardware. so the price disparity then boils down to wheel design (complexity), lathe time, and overhead.

so the work VS-XX and the HRE 540R use the [U]same exact shells. their faces are very similar. work doesn't offer their faces in any finishes other than "Burning Silver", "Extreme Gold", "2D Chrome" (sorta like an edelbrock "endurashine" from what i can tell), and "Gloss Black". HRE will give you their wheel faces in any finish you desire. same hardware used. gotta be very similar assembly times.

does this comparo work better? why are the HRE 540Rs priced much, MUCH more than the work VS-XXs? can't be just because of wheel finishes.

again, thanks to all who have taken part thus far. i like that we can play nice and have some really in depth conversations on PT.com.

FirstGenZq8

06-29-2009, 07:13 PM

Throw in marketing looks over function, exclusivity over mass production. I understand the differences between cast and forged, 2 piece and 3 piece but I’m a bottom line kind of guy. I’ll be running an aluminum head EFI hydraulic roller sequential EFI 409 through a TKO-600 and a 12 bolt 4.10 rear. Trying for old school in Bel Air build and am down to 3 attached wheels including one much maligned Coy, a Centerline and a Billet Specialties. Query—with the front wheel locks on I dump the clutch in 1st gear @ 4000 will one wheel vs. another fly to pieces?c5_gunm (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31005&stc=1&d=1246224824)TN_12517sof (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31006&stc=1&d=1246224824)0000000721-prod.jpg (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31007&stc=1&d=1246224824)ttail.jpg (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31006&stc=1&d=1246224824)etal_s.jpg (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31005&stc=1&d=1246224824)

lnirenberg, i'm not a manufacturer or a vendor. i really hope one or the other answers your question so you don't only have my reply to go on.

i'm a bottom line kinda guy as well, as evidenced by this thread. the coy is of course the cost leader, you can pick those up for a song. centerline is sometimes a forgotten option IMO. excellent pricing for 2 piece welded forged wheels. billet specialties' street lite is the best value in a lightweight, 17" wheel currently available. PERIOD.

so, coys are cheap to buy but weigh a ton.

centerlines are middle ground, good low weight, and excellent price for true forged wheels.

billet specialties street lite are extremely low weight and their price is very attractive. IMO the only con is that they only come up to 17".

Billet Specialities (http://www.billetspecialties.com/subcategory.asp?cid=16)
Street Lite 17
17x7 17 lbs
17x8 17.5 lbs
17x9.5 19.5 lbs
17x11 20.5 lbs

again, this is IMO, but not even the coys wheel will "fly to pieces" w/ crazy clutch dumps. they'd all be fine for drag duty. if you're going to fly 140+ MPH for extended periods i'd at least throw down for the centerlines.

i'd really like it if a manufacturer or vendor would weigh in for lnirenberg's sake.

454ragtop

06-29-2009, 09:42 PM

FirstGenZq8

06-30-2009, 07:50 AM

Joe, I've been watching this thread, and I think the thing you're missing is the cost to manufacture has very little to do with the selling price. The manufacturer takes many things into consideration in setting the price of an item, of which cost to manufature is only a small part. They must consider what their target market is willing to pay, and perceived value for what they are getting. Exclusivity counts a lot, especially in something like a high end set of wheels, just look at some of the fugly wheels people spend big bucks on. I wouldn't trade a set of steel rally's for them. Sure they could lower the price to where most anyone could afford them, but then they lose their target market, and their wheels would be as common as TT II's. If the price doesn't represent value, someone else comes along and says I could make a wheel similar to that for less than that and still make a good profit. Reminds me of when I was looking to buy a fireplace door. I went to look at some, the salesperson comes over and says "How much do you want to pay"? Thought that was a pretty stupid question, didn't much matter what I wanted to pay, tell me what they cost, and I can either afford them or I can't. How many things have you seen selling for $5-10 and said to yourself " Man, It must cost all of 5 cents to make that"? All this coming from a guy who is also looking for the best value in a new set of wheels. Jim.

something strange happened in late may that sparked this thread. i was in direct talks with one of the "little known forged wheel companies" from this thread https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55600 and they were willing to drop their price significantly in order to make a sale to me. normally their 18" wheels are $800 a piece, but they were willing to go down to $675 a piece. a 15% cut in price. $2720 VS $3200 is significant to me. and this isn't a vendor wheelin' and dealin', but the manufacturer, DIRECT.

so this company can still profit by only charging $2720? it's like a game of limbo; how much lower could they go?

Nine Ball

06-30-2009, 08:30 AM

work VS-XX
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

HRE 540R
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

YES! because APP supplies shells to 99% of the manufacturers. that means most 3 piece wheels are using the exact same shells. most even use the exact same hardware. so the price disparity then boils down to wheel design (complexity), lathe time, and overhead.

so the work VS-XX and the HRE 540R use the same exact shells. their faces are very similar. work doesn't offer their faces in any finishes other than "Burning Silver", "Extreme Gold", "2D Chrome" (sorta like an edelbrock "endurashine" from what i can tell), and "Gloss Black". HRE will give you their wheel faces in any finish you desire. same hardware used. gotta be very similar assembly times.

does this comparo work better? why are the HRE 540Rs priced much, MUCH more than the work VS-XXs? can't be just because of wheel finishes.

Work wheels have cast aluminum centers, not forged billet centers. It even says so on their website: http://www.workwheelsusa.com/product.php?category=26&wheel=75

"WORK VS-XX. The classic mesh design that is leading the pack. WORK VS-XX is a true 3 piece modular wheel. Utilizes the latest low-pressure cast center disk and barrel forming technique to assure the strength and quality."

If you had both wheels side by side, the comparison in quality would be hugely evident. I'll try to show this by photos. Notice the soft, rounded edges on the face of the Work wheel. This is a limitation of cast aluminum, as sharp edges tend to chip off, and are also harder to design a cast for. Basically, these centers are liquified metal, poured into a mold, then the mold is removed to leave the center. No machine time at all, other than drilling lug holes and rivet holes.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

On the HRE R series, the centers are made from a solid chunk of forged aluminum. Basically, a forged "blank". The spokes and designs are machined out by a multi-axis machine. Notice the sharper corners/edges on the face of the HRE wheel. Only machined Billet wheels will have this. The HRE wheels even get some additional detail machine work on the inside of the spokes, notice the concave grooves between the spokes? This is to lighten the wheel, and give them more detail attention.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Here are two pages to help explain the manufacturing process of a multi-piece forged wheel.

http://www.iforged.com/us/technology.php
http://www.minitruckinweb.com/tech/wheels/0507mt_making_of_a_billet_wheel/index.html

Tony

FirstGenZq8

06-30-2009, 01:19 PM

Vegas69

06-30-2009, 01:47 PM

HRE's are nice but you're paying for the name IMO. I'll take my Forgelines anyday of the week.

Nine Ball

06-30-2009, 02:15 PM

that's what i'm looking for. thank you tony.

so the difference between the two are the wheel faces, with the HRE wheel face being forged and having a lengthy amount of time on the lathe.

$2000 extra for this? $3000 extra for this?

Comparing a bottom of the line multi-piece wheel to the top of the line, of course there will be a huge spread in pricing. HRE is also regarded as one of the most desirable name brands too. That comes with a price, just like anything else with a name brand. The higher price does keep them somewhat exclusive though, if that matters to someone. For example, the set of HRE's on my Z06 retail at around $9K for just the wheels. 19x10 fronts and 20x12.5 rears, custom paint-matched to my car. Pricey for sure, but I am less likely to see an identical car anytime soon. That is difficult to do with a bellybutton Corvette that seems to be on every corner here in Houston. lol

I carry several brands of wheels, with prices ranging from $1500 to $12,000 a set. Depends on what you want. All of my brands use forged centers, I don't like dealing in cheaply made wheels.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/12/C6Zshoot04-1.jpg

camaro2nv

06-30-2009, 03:53 PM

something strange happened in late may that sparked this thread. i was in direct talks with one of the "little known forged wheel companies" from this thread https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55600 and they were willing to drop their price significantly in order to make a sale to me. normally their 18" wheels are $800 a piece, but they were willing to go down to $675 a piece. a 15% cut in price. $2720 VS $3200 is significant to me. and this isn't a vendor wheelin' and dealin', but the manufacturer, DIRECT.

so this company can still profit by only charging $2720? it's like a game of limbo; how much lower could they go?
You would be shocked to see what discounts are being given to vendors from wheel companies. What you have to remember is, the vendor dosent always pass the saving on to you. But advice is to shop it!

GetMore

06-30-2009, 04:15 PM

I just read through this thread today, and I agree with the idea.
Personally, I don't care about the name on the wheel, but I will pay extra for a better wheel. I would like a real comparison of the different wheels from different manufacturers, so I can choose the best wheel for my needs that I like the look of.

On the other hand, if all the top ($) manufacturers were to put all their information out there, and they each had wheels equal to the others, and the only difference was price and name who would spend the extra money?

If brands A, B, and C all make the same wheel I'll buy the cheapest one.
If brand C is made in China I won't buy it. (Well, to be honest, it'd have to be a lot cheaper and still made the same as A and B. My wallet doesn't always have the strength to support my convictions.)
If brand A has a stronger, lighter wheel then that is worth more to me.

It would be nice to be able to at least call up the company and say "I'm looking at you wheels along with those from Brand B and C. What makes your wheels worth the extra money."
Possibly the exact information would be the kind of thing that they don't want to get out. However I doubt there are any secrets about making wheels.

I wonder if we could start a list with technical details for those shopping wheels. Something along the lines of "Brand X, line Y comes with forged centers, titanium hardware and includes the center caps."
I know if would make things easier for me when it comes time to choose wheels. Just going by how they look on the screen and the price is NOT going to help me make the right choice.

lnirenberg

06-30-2009, 06:47 PM

lnirenberg, i'm not a manufacturer or a vendor. i really hope one or the other answers your question so you don't only have my reply to go on.

i'm a bottom line kinda guy as well, as evidenced by this thread. the coy is of course the cost leader, you can pick those up for a song. centerline is sometimes a forgotten option IMO. excellent pricing for 2 piece welded forged wheels. billet specialties' street lite is the best value in a lightweight, 17" wheel currently available. PERIOD.

so, coys are cheap to buy but weigh a ton.

centerlines are middle ground, good low weight, and excellent price for true forged wheels.

billet specialties street lite are extremely low weight and their price is very attractive. IMO the only con is that they only come up to 17".

Billet Specialities (http://www.billetspecialties.com/subcategory.asp?cid=16)
Street Lite 17
17x7 17 lbs
17x8 17.5 lbs
17x9.5 19.5 lbs
17x11 20.5 lbs

again, this is IMO, but not even the coys wheel will "fly to pieces" w/ crazy clutch dumps. they'd all be fine for drag duty. if you're going to fly 140+ MPH for extended periods i'd at least throw down for the centerlines.

i'd really like it if a manufacturer or vendor would weigh in for lnirenberg's sake.

This what I was getting at. Will -10lbs of unsprung weight per wheel make a big difference on a 2 ton car? I have no absolute way of knowing unless I can do objective testing but I am willing to assume it will so weight is definitely a factor. Are the finish of a forged wheels more durable than a cast--probably depends on the cast but clearly a forged wheel center should be harder than a cast, so once again another factor I considered. Also, nine ball's point about the sharper lines of a forged wheel definately was a factor. Personally, I was looking for a bit of old school look so a lot of the wheels that look great on 1st gen Camaros and vettes of various generations wouldn't work for me. In the end, I went with an American made forged wheel that I really liked from Billet Specialties at a great price point--kind of like having my cake and eating it to. Kudos to Jon Henson at Driverz Inc for the patience and help. Sorry for the crappy photo shop but it got me the general idea of what they would look like on the car. The actual tires will drop the car a couple more inches front and rear. Rally copy.jpg (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31070&stc=1&d=1246416053)

FirstGenZq8

06-30-2009, 07:21 PM

This what I was getting at. Will -10lbs of unsprung weight per wheel make a big difference on a 2 ton car? I have no absolute way of knowing unless I can do objective testing but I am willing to assume it will so weight is definitely a factor. Are the finish of a forged wheels more durable than a cast--probably depends on the cast but clearly a forged wheel center should be harder than a cast, so once again another factor I considered. Also, nine ball's point about the sharper lines of a forged wheel definately was a factor. Personally, I was looking for a bit of old school look so a lot of the wheels that look great on 1st gen Camaros and vettes of various generations wouldn't work for me. In the end, I went with an American made forged wheel that I really liked from Billet Specialties at a great price point--kind of like having my cake and eating it to. Kudos to Jon Henson at Driverz Inc for the patience and help. Sorry for the crappy photo shop but it got me the general idea of what they would look like on the car. The actual tires will drop the car a couple more inches front and rear. Rally copy.jpg (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31070&stc=1&d=1246416053)

i think you made the best choice w/ the street lites. in all of my research, i can say w/ the utmost confidence that the street lite is the best value in a lightweight, 17" wheel out right now. can't get lighter for the dollar!

Nine Ball

07-01-2009, 08:35 PM

I wonder if we could start a list with technical details for those shopping wheels. Something along the lines of "Brand X, line Y comes with forged centers, titanium hardware and includes the center caps."

Questions like this are meant for wheel dealers to help you with. Most of us that sell wheels will also gladly make suggestions based on your price range and vehicle. I feel I'm pretty good at picking the right wheel design for each type of vehicle, no complaints so far. Wheels can make or break your car, sometimes it is good to get opinions. The problem with your list idea is that each brand typically makes several lines of wheels. Some for performance, some for visuals only. The hardware, finishes, materials, etc... are typically options within each brand. It all depends on what you want, and what you can spend.

Are the finish of a forged wheels more durable than a cast

Both wheels are aluminum. Aluminum oxidizes in air, turns cloudy. If you hate polishing, I'd recommend either painted, powdercoated, or clearcoated centers. I'm not a big fan of chrome, other than on the lips. To me, chrome centers kind of make a wheel look cheap. I'd never recommend bare polished wheels for anything but a garage queen that never sees rain.

JRouche

07-01-2009, 10:58 PM

Great thread...

Wheels, they make the car, for the most part (talking looks only now), that and paint.

So when looking for wheels I wanted to match a wheel that fit the style of my car (62 nova). And my car doesnt look good with a modern multi spoke wheel, I dont, IMO, think any old cars do. So I was limited there, then back spacing. I had critical back spacing needs. And most of all, money, Im not made of it, neither are my trees.

So what I saw for decent wheel styles that I liked were limited in BSing. Why well cause they were cast wheels. And I dont have any problem with cast wheels. But I couldnt get them in the correct BSing.

So I looked at billet specialties. They had a design I liked... Still some road blocks. I wanted an 11" wheel and with the soft lip I wanted they only come in even sizes. Like 8, 10 and 12 inches. I couldnt fit a 12" wheel and 8" was too small. So I had to settle for the 10" wheel just so I could have the smooth lip.

But whats really funny is I can get the same style rim in 11" but its the standard hoop, where the lip is in front of the center, not like the smooth hoop where the lip is behind the center. MAN!! I learned alot about wheels.

Here is an example.. All BS wheels, all the same design for the center. Three diff wheels. Pricing is a lil diff but not by much... But one is a cast center. I bought the billet machined center. So when I got the wheels and started thinking, hmmm, the pics look so close, how do I know I got the machined center and not the cast. Dummy me, I should know better to tell the diff, but my mind was racing and I wasnt thinking. Tooling marks on the back of the center. It was obviously a machined part. But the face looks so good, I mean I was thinking it was a cast center for a lil bit.... Anyway, and come down to it, I should have bought the cast wheel if I really wanted the 11" wheel cause IMO, its prolly just as good of a part.

To show the possibilities. Three wheels, same center design. Cast and milled. JR

The wheel I bought. SLC62 Smooth lip, milled center.
http://www.billetspecialties.com/item.asp?cid=16&scid=21&pid=582

Same wheel but with a standard hoop, but also available in 11" but I wanted a smooth lip.
http://www.billetspecialties.com/item.asp?cid=16&scid=1&pid=489

Then the same design but in a cast center but smooth hoop. Price break here.
http://www.billetspecialties.com/item.asp?cid=16&scid=257&pid=961

FirstGenZq8

07-05-2009, 08:48 PM

am i reading this this article correctly?

http://www.24-7pressrelease.com/press-release-rss/forged-6061-rims-available-now-from-forged-rim-supply-103971.php

so http://forgedrimsupply.com is now the sole distributer for ALL 2 piece T-6061 hoops? does this monopolization jack wheel prices higher, or was there another sole distributor before forged rim supply for 2 piece wheel hoops?

Forged 6061 Rims Available Now From Forged Rim Supply

CORONA, CA, June 12, 2009 /24-7PressRelease/ -- Forged Rim Supply has been granted the exclusive distribution for all forged 6061 seamless hoops/rims for welded two-piece wheels. Currently available in soft lip and conventional rim flanges, these rim shells are available in 15, 17, 18, 19, 20-inch diameters with 22-inch applications coming soon. With widths from 7 to 15 inches, these superior forged rim shells will meet nearly any high performance or custom need.

The seamless construction means no heat affected zone to reduce strength, durability or concentricity. Forged from 6000 series alloys, these rim shells will not work-harden with age, which is often seen in the lesser-quality 5000 series alloys used in most spun rim shells, virtually eliminating the issues of cracks or failure. Heat-treating these rim shells to T6 grade maximizes the strength and durability to the highest level.

The 6061 alloy polishes to a brilliant luster and will not give your billet wheels the "two-tone" effect of a duller 5000 series rim shell. In addition, 6061 alloys are more resistant to surface corrosion than 5000 series alloys. All the rim shells are forged, turned, spun, and final machined for perfect concentricity and maximum strength for their weight. The shells are TPMS compatible, and able to absorb the increased horsepower of today's hot rods and muscle cars effortlessly, while resisting impacts from pot-holes and road debris due to their higher ductility.

The strength, durability, and elegance of these forged rim shells are designed and manufactured using exhaustive testing and proprietary forging and heat-treating techniques. Exceeding JWL, DOT, and SAE standards, a Forged Rim Supply rim shell can withstand fatigue testing to maximum load with no loss of strength and with a total absence of any type of failure or deterioration making them your best choice for any quality two-piece wheel. "Forged for greater strength, these hoops are the lightest and strongest hoops available today and are unmatched in quality," exclaimed Dan Thibeau, Chief Operations Officer for Forged Rim Supply . Thibeau continued "we will be offering seamless 6061 forged billet hoops in diameter sizes from 15" -22" and 5"-15" widths because these sizes make up the total two-piece wheel market." All Forged Rim Supply hoops are one-piece forged, flow formed and spun seamless with a perfect look. They are also heat treated and tempered to T-6 for strength and durability and are the lightest and strongest two-piece rims available in the market today.

Source: Forged Rim Supply
Website: http://www.forgedrimsupply.com

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