Ls1 brake setup on 69 camaro questions.

[Ryanater]

So I have been reading that it is very cost effective to convert my 1969 Camaro to 4 wheel disc brakes by using an ls1 brake setup. Although right now I have 15" Rally wheels. Will they clear the ls1 brakes? And I don't want to buy a set of 17" or 18" Wheels right now because they don't look right without just the right stance. (mine is stock now height)
The other thing is that I can't find a write up on how to do it! All I know is that I use stock Drum spindles up front, I have to machine them down, and I can use the stock ls1 backing plates for the rear with a spacer.

[Apogee]

There is no way you're going to squeeze LS1 brakes inside of a 15" wheel unless they're pizza cutters with no backspacing. BRP Hot Rods however sells the necessary bracket kits and spacers to adapt the front and rear LS1 brakes to an A/F/X-Body if I'm not mistaken.

Tobin
KORE3

[Rick Dorion]

You might want to look at C4 setups for 15" rims using the 12" rotor.

[Apogee]

Or for cool old school factor, adapt the C3 4-piston calipers for an era accurate upgrade. Wilwood makes some nice aluminum knockoffs of the C3 calipers now that are ~30 pounds lighter than the originals and fairly affordable. That's probably the direction I'd go with 15" wheels anyway.

Tobin
KORE3

[HOTROD99]

try speedway motors they have some cheap kits

[Ryanater]

How well do the C4 brakes perform compaired to the Ls1 brakes?

[Rick Dorion]

I believe Carl has been using C4 setup with regular track use.

Tobin - I hadn't thought about C3 and am at that junction. How would you rate the C3 vs a C4 setup? TIA.

[Apogee]

The front brakes on the C4 Corvettes were PBR's first stab at an aluminum "Slimline" caliper aimed at removing weight and improving performance over the older C3 style cast iron caliper. Considering the multiple issues with the floating piston seals and weight of the C3 calipers, they weren't exactly setting the bar all that high in retrospect...but kudos to them for innovating viable performance OE braking solutions when they did.

The LS1 brakes are much more comparable to the C5 and C6 setups since they are pin-guided caliper designs whereas the C4 calipers are pad-guided. For that reason alone I'd personally rather run the LS1 calipers since maintenance is significantly easier and that design tends to be friendlier with respect to pad wear. Nothing against the C4 calipers as they were good for their day, it's just that day has come and gone. They are still one of the smallest 2-piston caliper options available and if wheel fitment is the primary concern, then not a bad option.

If the Wilwood C3's are in the budget though, I like the rigidity of the 4-piston caliper versus the 2-piston floating options and the fact that it's designed for a 1.25" [32mm] thick rotor instead of the 1.1" [28mm] C4 options. The added rigidity of the calipers is only an advantage though if you can keeping the mounting brackets from flexing all over the place. The stamped sheet metal brackets that were used from the factory on the F-bodies were less than stellar in that department. Wilwood updated the piston and seal design to match their other calipers and can be supplied from Wilwood with Thermlock pistons for those who want them...it's nice not to buy things twice if you don't have to. I wish Wilwood would have considered staggering the bores of the C3 calipers, but apparently that's not in the cards...at least not at the moment. OE bore sizes only.

The Wilwood C3s are still new enough that we don't have any real world feedback, but we've got some crazy vintage racers looking to run a set this coming season with some 7075 billet hubs and custom chromoly mounting brackets to replace the stamped OE piece. About the only current drawback to the C3 setup is the limited number of performance rotor options...but if there's enough demand, our vintage racers have been nudging us to create a DBA 4000 series rotor for the front and rear C3 application.

Tobin
KORE3

[Ryanater]

Can the c3 setup fit inseide a 15" wheel?

I am pretty limited to options that will fit inside my rally wheels right now. If I wasn't i would go with the C5 setup.

[BonzoHansen]

Were 4 piston calipers an option in 69?

[Ryanater]

Were 4 piston calipers an option in 69?

No i think that was only 67.

[Apogee]

Can the c3 setup fit inseide a 15" wheel?

I am pretty limited to options that will fit inside my rally wheels right now. If I wasn't i would go with the C5 setup.

The C3 setup should fit inside most 15" wheels as the rotors are fairly high offset to position the calipers relatively far inboard for spoke clearance. All C3 Corvette's came with 15" wheels if I'm not mistaken.

Tobin
KORE3

[Rick Dorion]

Thanks, Tobin

Do you offer C3 mounting brackets for a 1st gen application?

[Apogee]

Thanks, Tobin

Do you offer C3 mounting brackets for a 1st gen application?

We have made billet chromoly brackets to mount the C3 calipers on the GM short-spindles in the past for a few vintage racers who were twisting the stock brackets far enough to hit the rotors with the caliper bodies. These guys run extremely hard and seem to push everything to limit every season. The brackets work really well but they're not cheap due to the fact that we're machining them out of pre-hard 4140 in order to avoid a post-machining heat-treat process...give me a call if you'd like to discuss further.

I think we're down to our last set on the shelf and I'm not sure we're going to make any more. We spent more money on busted carbide and tooling on the last batch than I care to think about. Anyone who's ever machined pre-hard 4140 knows how unsettling it can be to run as hard and fast as you can without coolant...when things go bad, they go bad in a hurry and those little insert holders aren't cheap.

Tobin
KORE3

[Rick Dorion]

Thanks again.
My car is street use, maybe see some autocross at times so maybe stock mounts will be acceptable.

[Ryanater]

So if I want a cheap 4 wheel disc brake setup that will fit under a 15" wheel the c4 setup is the way to go?

[Tito]

Were 4 piston calipers an option in 69?

Well, sort of -- GM basically put corvette brakes on all 4 corners if you checked the JL8 4-wheel disc option. This was a combination of the C3 rotors and calipers with the camaro drum hubs and special brackets, etc. There were like 200 of them made tho....

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/0607ch_1969_chevy_camaro/index.html

[Ryanater]

I've heard about that.

So what would perform better? C4 or c3 brakes?

[Apogee]

I've heard about that.

So what would perform better? C4 or c3 brakes?

They each have their pros and cons. If you opt for the Wilwood aluminum C3 calipers, you address the issue of weight and the less than optimal piston/seal design (just my opinion) of the original C3 calipers. The C3 rotors are the same casting front and rear, they just machine the hat a little differently between the two, so you end up with much more rotor than any C4 kit is going to have.

The C4 calipers are limited to 1.1" thick front rotors and .81" rear rotors. They're a lot lighter than the cast iron C3 calipers, but probably not as light as the Wilwood C3's. The piston area of the C4's is much smaller than an OE disc/disc setup, and as such will require a smaller bore master cylinder. The C3 kit should be good with the typical 1" bore for manual brakes, 1-1/8" bore for vacuum boosted brakes.

Given your first post indicating that you'd like to eventually go with 17 or 18 inch wheels and pro-touring stance, what is your short term goal with going to disc brakes inside your 15" wheels? The stock disc/drum setup is dirt cheap may be a good option in the interim period. There are lots of people with OE brakes sitting in boxes in their garage...just need to check the classifieds. Everyone and their dog seems to sell OE brake kits on Ebay. Just another option.

Tobin
KORE3

[Ryanater]

Well I was trying to do the brakes one time. Thats why I want at least a 12" rotor. I want something that will fit under a 15" wheel but will still be addaquit once I upgrade to a larger wheel.

not to muddy the waters but will the LT1 Camaro setup fit? They seem like they are pretty much the same thing as the LS1 setup.

Thanks a ton guys for helping me out! I'm starting to think that I might just have to do wheels first and keep them stored until I get a C5 or C6 setup.

[EFI69Cam]

Well I was trying to do the brakes one time. Thats why I want at least a 12" rotor. I want something that will fit under a 15" wheel but will still be addaquit once I upgrade to a larger wheel.

not to muddy the waters but will the LT1 Camaro setup fit? They seem like they are pretty much the same thing as the LS1 setup.

Thanks a ton guys for helping me out! I'm starting to think that I might just have to do wheels first and keep them stored until I get a C5 or C6 setup.

The LT1 brakes are nothing like the LS1. The LT1 brakes were an 11" rotor with a cast iron caliper. They did not work anywhere near as well as the later ls1 brakes. The stock 69 setup would be pretty much the same as those.

[Ryanater]

So I know I have beat this to the ground but the guys at ls1tech.com are running 15" wheels with their ls1 cars. But you have to grind on the calipers.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/wheels-tires/1046181-15-rims-02-f-body.html

Can I grind on mine to make it fit a 15" Rally wheel?

[Ishmael]

I just tried to go down the same road and I found out a few things. First and foremost, its about the same cost to suss out your own set up as I found out the hard way. Plus its a lot more aggrevation. You could go with a stock-type setup from any manufacturer - there's a number on e-bay but you aren't going to be happy with them after you go to a big tire. Baer makes the Serious Street kit to fit in most 15 inch wheels and I think its based on c4 calipers. You may need to run a small spacer but at least they will give you adequate whoa power. Muscle Rodz, a sponsor here, offers the front kit cheaper than anywhere - and trust me, I looked. http://musclerodzstore.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=638&HS=1
You can get brackets from anywhere for an LT1 rear combo but Touring Classics , another sponsor, has a good deal on the whole setup and they clear 15s as well. http://www.touring-classics.com/Rear-12.htm
It uses two right calipers. You can buy the brackets alone from Noel. But I would go with the whole kit if I were to do it again.
You may need to run a spacer with both set ups and ask if both will clear the top of the inside of the rim but I'm pretty sure they will.

[Ryanater]

I love my brakes on my 98 Trans am. They work really good!

[zman1969]

So I know I have beat this to the ground but the guys at ls1tech.com are running 15" wheels with their ls1 cars. But you have to grind on the calipers.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/wheels-tires/1046181-15-rims-02-f-body.html

Can I grind on mine to make it fit a 15" Rally wheel?

Ryanater why dont you do the LS1 setup and find some cheap 16" to fit in the meantime - rear 3rd gen IROC or GTA wheels should work Ok as the base 98-02 F-bodys had 16x8 wheels

[Ryanater]

Ryanater why dont you do the LS1 setup and find some cheap 16" to fit in the meantime - rear 3rd gen IROC or GTA wheels should work Ok as the base 98-02 F-bodys had 16x8 wheels

Because right now the car looks really good. Throwing some cheap wheels on would ruin it.

[zman1969]

Because right now the car looks really good. Throwing some cheap wheels on would ruin it.
I saw this and thought it looked nice : https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/2007%20year%20in%20pictures%20093

hard to have your cake and eat it too- good luck with your ride.

[hifi875]

do the swap you'll be glad u did. i'm running it w/the brp kit, works great but you will end up w/some money in the swap after its all said and done. especially if you want to upgrade to cross drilled slotted rotors that are good ones, not the cheap ebay stuff. so compare to a wilwood or baer kit and run the numbers.

[camarodude87]

http://ls1tech.com/forums/chevrolet-camaro-1967-2002/1331123-ls1-69-camaro-swap-5.html

Found this thread on Ls1tech. This guy fit 6 piston willwood up front and 4 pistons in the rear with 12" rotors. I might order one to test fit just to confirm.