How hardcore to go?

[rdplyr]

I am in the process of a 68 Camaro build. With all the suspension options out there it is tough to decide what route to go. The car will mainly be driven to shows and track very occasionally so I want it to ride good on the street. I don't want the suspension so harsh that it beats you to death cruising around, but responsive enough for some carving. I will have dse mini-tubs installed. So what is the best all-around setup. I would like to hear from people that have setups installed in their cars for real world opinions.

[rdplyr]

By the way I have searched... i know art morrisson and dse make good stuff. I am leaning toward one of these companies. I just don't want to buy something and it not be what I was expecting. Who has setups from these companies or modifications and are happy with them?

[novaderrik]

the stock suspension will work for what you want.
do the Guldstrand mod and try to get as much caster as possible.
as for springs, in the front i was running chopped Moog 6041's in my 71 Nova- which calculates to (i think) about a 600# spring rate. the front of the car would barely go down with 3 grown men sitting on the hood of the car.. i don't know what my rear springs were- they were some 5 leaves that i found in the trunk of another Nova in a junkyard. they were also fairly stiff, as going from an almost empty gas tank to a full tank didn't drop it more than 1/4" or so.
the car handled great and rode nice- not Caddy smooth, but not race car harsh, either. just nice and tight like most late model cars i've driven.

[rdplyr]

the stock suspension will work for what you want.
do the Guldstrand mod and try to get as much caster as possible.
as for springs, in the front i was running chopped Moog 6041's in my 71 Nova- which calculates to (i think) about a 600# spring rate. the front of the car would barely go down with 3 grown men sitting on the hood of the car.. i don't know what my rear springs were- they were some 5 leaves that i found in the trunk of another Nova in a junkyard. they were also fairly stiff, as going from an almost empty gas tank to a full tank didn't drop it more than 1/4" or so.
the car handled great and rode nice- not Caddy smooth, but not race car harsh, either. just nice and tight like most late model cars i've driven.

Yeah. that is kinda what I was looking for. You can spend soooo much money on suspension parts and that is cool if you need too. I still might go with a subframe upgrade just for the sake of it allowing more room for lsx, not chopping up oil pan and headers, but try to keep cost as reasonable as possible.

[ProdigyCustoms]

To get a good ride and handling, put a 4 link in it. Lowered leaf springs ride like doo doo. When a spring package is de arched to lower the car, the rate has to be increased to support the weight. Whihc means firmer ride. With a 4 link, 200LB springs do the job and ride height is changed by changing the shock mounting location and adjusting the spring on the shock.

Up front, a good set of springs and shocks will do the job. Use Coil springs and seperate shocks, not coil over conversions to keep the most spring

[rdplyr]

To get a good ride and handling, put a 4 link in it. Lowered leaf springs ride like doo doo. When a spring package is de arched to lower the car, the rate has to be increased to support the weight. Whihc means firmer ride. With a 4 link, 200LB springs do the job and ride height is changed by changing the shock mounting location and adjusting the spring on the shock.

Up front, a good set of springs and shocks will do the job. Use Coil springs and seperate shocks, not coil over conversions to keep the most spring

So what about the DSE quadra-link? It looks pretty good! Or maybe the Art Morrison 3-link?

[chicane67]

To get a good ride and handling, put a 4 link in it. Lowered leaf springs ride like doo doo. When a spring package is de arched to lower the car, the rate has to be increased to support the weight. Which means firmer ride. With a 4 link, 200LB springs do the job and ride height is changed by changing the shock mounting location and adjusting the spring on the shock.

Up front, a good set of springs and shocks will do the job. Use Coil springs and seperate shocks, not coil over conversions to keep the most spring


Let's say we clairify this a little better...

The off the shelf, mass produced... quote un-quote... "lowering spring" available from the majority of so-called suspension experts... ride like doo doo. They also fall short in controlling wheel hop and anchoring the IC all that well. But... a correctly engineered and built leaf springs will hang with even the best of the link suspensions made today.

The problem is... that there are so few spring builders that even know all that much about leaf springs anymore.

Also... since you want and need to increase the leaf rate anyway... lowering it will get you to that same 200# number that is used in the link suspension. And in reality... something around the 250 to 300# rate is what you will want in a leaf or link rear suspension if you are going to see any track time. The real secret is in the damper and its valving... not the other way around.

Next... coil overs... by that I mean true coil overs, are the best solution. Not the 'almost coil overs' like the QA1 trash. You would be better offf with adjustable spring buckets and conventional coils... with a quality damper. But there are true coil over options available... ATS and DSE. You can set the front end up with lighter spring rates and control the rest with the charge control pressure... which pretty much gives you and adjustable rate suspension to play around with.

Simply stated... you can do just fine with a conventional coil spring front suspension. Adding in the needed caster and camber is where you need to ask yourself some questions. Tube control arms... a taller spindle... geometry re-location of the stock control arm... and, bushing material. The easiest way to take care of a multitude of the questions and address them at the same time is the ATS AFX spindle... with an aftermarket tube control arm... Global West/DSE/Speed Tech... something like that. You need the geometry to be correct... more than you need huge spring rates and an aggressive alignment to compensate for lack there of.

Nice thing about the coil over suspensions... front and rear... is the availability and adjustment of the seperate components. Spring rates can be changed MUCH MUCH easier... and the ride height is pretty much infinate. Plus... the dampers normally used in these suspensions are of a different design and are naturally a better design to begin with in most cases.

The link supensions are nice... and they also add some undue complexity to something that doesnt need to be all that complicated. But... if you want to play "keep up with the Jones" and want the ultimate in adjustability... the link will definately get you there.

Looking into air suspension ?? I would definately consider Franks "Prodigy/G Bar" link suspension. Its much simplier in fabrication and install than most everything else out there... it's got some adjustment... and the air stuff is a viaable option for ride comfort and performance.

The Qudra-Link has been around for some time now and it's been punished and proven. Although... it does have some design limitations.

The Morrison 3-link is realitively new... and looks promising. Then as well... Art and Company are not new to this either... they wouldnt market the 3-link if it wasnt engineered and build correctly. I'd be interested to get my hands on a chassis to see where they went geometry-wise...

And of course... the Lateral Dynamics 3-lnk. Probably the best engineered 3-link ever made for the first gen f-body. But... getting one... isnt realistic as of late.


Speed is merely just a question of money... How fast do you really want to go ??

[Vegas69]

Chicane...you kill me man. Enjoy your posts. I really like the Prodigy/G bar in a mini tub application. It eliminates the need for the DSE cross brace and the narrowed fuel tank. It also makes pinion angle changes much easier along with ride height adjustments. It rides very good and the shock valving changes really do make a huge difference in ride quality. My only bitch is getting tailpipes throught the triangulated 4 link. Frank has them but they cost a arm and a leg. You can never go wrong with DSE stuff.

[aosborn]

To get a good ride and handling, put a 4 link in it. Lowered leaf springs ride like doo doo. When a spring package is de arched to lower the car, the rate has to be increased to support the weight. Whihc means firmer ride. With a 4 link, 200LB springs do the job and ride height is changed by changing the shock mounting location and adjusting the spring on the shock.

Why does the rate have to be increased when de-arching leaf springs. If you were happy with the rate, and just wanted to lower the car, then de-arching would do the trick. De-arching doesn't change the rate.

[JRouche]

Great thread. Coil overs do seem like the best compromise. Leaf springs are heavy and inefficient for the the spring rates. Why arent there any torsion bar springs for after market setups? Too much engineering (cost) involved?

Guess it all comes down to the purpose of the car. Gonna be hard pressed to make everyone happy. Will a car be needed to travel down the road for thousands of miles and see the track too. How much maintenance will be required by the user. Solely a track car that will be adjusted at every race. Needs to be fully adjustable front to back, side to side. Does the owner have scales to really fine tune each corner.

Alot of guys want a nice street car but want it to handle like a race car when they need it. Fine line there.

I almost think its easier for a strictly track car owner to figure out what is best for him. Less variables.

A dual purpose car, street and track has more variables involved. Wonder why the engineers at GM or any manufacture get paid the money, they are under the gun to produce the best of both worlds, including one other, survivability. Hell, with these 100,000 mile warranties. Knowing the owner will flog the heck outta the car, fresh off the lot, and wont preform any maintenance that has to be a tough job. Ever see a 18 year old kid take a new Z06 off the lot and red line it from every stop light in town, I have. Its sick :(

Back to your topic. You are very fortunate. There are so many after market companies producing alot of quality products for your car. So the hard part for you is detirmining which route to go. Many less fortunate guys, with obscure cars are left to figure it out on their own, no such thing as a bolt in 3 link suspension for them.

So what would be my choice? LOL Well, I guess the route I took. But I may have different needs than you. But I like the 3 link setups out there. I think they have a good compromise between serviceability, strength, performance and cost. Oh, and I like the 4 link setups too. Solid rear suspensions there. But I also like the idea of an independent rear suspension too. Torque arm rears look good for performance.. Oh, how bout the truck arm suspensions, great stories there. See where this is going. They can all be good for the purpose, I like them ALL...

Im old (43) so I like a air ride with a simple parallel 4 link, watts link and a firm sway bar. Thats the back, the front is next month :) JR

[XLexusTech]

Chicane / Frank tanks for the posts. I love to see posts go this direction were great discussion results in Great Information. With that said I was wondering with either of you though tof the recent trend toward Torque arms for the Gen 1 F body? It seems like a great multi purpose soultion.

[rdplyr]

Chicane...you kill me man. Enjoy your posts. I really like the Prodigy/G bar in a mini tub application. It eliminates the need for the DSE cross brace and the narrowed fuel tank. It also makes pinion angle changes much easier along with ride height adjustments. It rides very good and the shock valving changes really do make a huge difference in ride quality. My only bitch is getting tailpipes throught the triangulated 4 link. Frank has them but they cost a arm and a leg. You can never go wrong with DSE stuff.

Great Info! OK. I like the fact of not having to purchase a new fuel tank with Frank's setup. Would I have to purchase a new fuel tank to go with the Morrison 3-link? How much is an exhaust system with Prodigy setup? Would the spacing on the Prodigy rear allow for a Z06 style tailpipe setup out the rear? I am not getting crazy on the build, but I do want a custom tailpipe look that comes through the rear body area.

When comparing DSE versus the Prodigy setup does the cost of a new fuel tank offset the cost of the custom exhaust?

[ProdigyCustoms]

To do a "through" tail panel exit you will need to build a a narrow tank unless you are wanting to do a under tail pan exit at the outer edges of the rear valance.

All the quality 4 links are good, the "Prodigy Bar' is a bolt in and easy to install. The Qualdra Link, G Link, are all good suspensions and do require more welding and fabrication then our bolt in system.

We sell and install them all.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Chicane / Frank tanks for the posts. I love to see posts go this direction were great discussion results in Great Information. With that said I was wondering with either of you though tof the recent trend toward Torque arms for the Gen 1 F body? It seems like a great multi purpose soultion.

We will be instaling a Speedtech Torque Arm real soon. As I have mentioned before, I am familair with torque arms in 3rd and 4th gen cars. I wonder how good a multi purpose suspension they will make as handling torque arm set ups do not drag race well and vise versa. It is my experiance that a torque arm can handle and drag race, but not at the same time. To do one thing you ruin the other.

The Triangle 4 links do both handle and drag race pretty damn good with neutral settings, and with minor changes can set on up to handle excellent and not completly ruin the Drag Race function.

[rdplyr]

To do a "through" tail panel exit you will need to build a a narrow tank unless you are wanting to do a under tail pan exit at the outer edges of the rear valance.

All the quality 4 links are good, the "Prodigy Bar' is a bolt in and easy to install. The Qualdra Link, G Link, are all good suspensions and do require more welding and fabrication then our bolt in system.

We sell and install them all.

Well maybe I will pass on the "through" tailpipe setup and decide on something else.

[David Pozzi]

Why does the rate have to be increased when de-arching leaf springs. If you were happy with the rate, and just wanted to lower the car, then de-arching would do the trick. De-arching doesn't change the rate.

You have to increase the rate to reduce bump travel. If not, the car would bottom out frequently. If you could maintain enough travel, then the spring would not have to be stiffer.
David

[chicane67]

As I have mentioned before, I am familair with torque arms in 3rd and 4th gen cars. I wonder how good a multi purpose suspension they will make as handling torque arm set ups do not drag race well and vise versa. It is my experiance that a torque arm can handle and drag race, but not at the same time. To do one thing you ruin the other.

I'll second that...

Torque arms have design and space limitations that can not really be worked around each other. As Frank stated... it's either one or the other... not both.

I can remember the early tweaking of this type of rear suspension... it was done by Global West years and years ago... but, I'll tell you what... ole Doug got it figured out and I swear he cut 2 seconds off lap times with his "Torque Link" in the Gen 3/4 chassis. But again... it was a weaver... not a digger.

I can pretty much bet that even the "new" offerings that are out or about to come out in the near future... will have the very same limitations as they did 20 years ago.

[XLexusTech]

So is it that a torque arm is limited in adjustability? In other words I have no problem adjusting for a day at the drags one weekend and an autocoss the next. <<Or>> are you saying with a tringulated 4 link you can find a sweet spot that works for both? My perception is that you would expect to have to adjust either for Weeving vs Digging.

[ProdigyCustoms]

The triangle 4 link can easily find a happy middle ground that does both well. A simple spring change and shock adjustment will help either function tremendously. Double adjustable shocks are your best friend for dual purpose.

Assuming a 3500LBS Camaro with the typical 1600LB rear weight, On the autocross, firm springs (200LBS to 250LBS, even 300LBS and firm equal compression and rebound shock adjustments) work well. For the dragstrip, Soft springs (130LBS to 175LBS with soft compression and firm rebound shock settings) allows the car to squat, hit the tires, and not bounce back like a pogo stick.

Now add in the adjustability of the bars like the new G link has, and you can really play with things. HOWEVER, you can get lost quickly also. I have always said to much adjustment can be a bad thing for Joe Average.

So to answer your sweet spot question, stock arm adjustments, with a 200LBS spring (1600LBS rear weight) and double adjustable shocks, or shock waves, and you have a good riding, good autocrossing, good dragstrip hooking car that does all those well.

I have no idea of the recent torque arm offering have enough adjustability to do both? I will find out soon if Speedtechs offering does.