Airbar rear question in 69 camaro [Archive]

Munster

02-17-2009, 10:00 PM

I'm in the process of installing my Moser rear from Frank at Prodigy into my airbar rear set up on a 69 Camaro. New install for all parts. Rear axel is a 12 bolt with tabs for airbar prewelded at moser.

I think I need the measurement from the top of the axel tube to the bottom of the frame rail directly above the tube. The instuctions say to cut a spacer and tack weld in place(when getting ready to tack tabs to the axel) to get ride height established but I can't use that measurement because where you are supposed to tack them in was removed when the mini tubs were put in. Their pictures show it on a non tubbed car.

My problem is when I put the axel near what I think is, or is near, ride height, then in order to get the pinion angle set I would have to unscrew the adjustable end of the top link out so far I don't think there will be but a few threads left in the threaded area of the upper link shaft. Is there more than one length of upper link? I might have something wrong but it seems my upper link is to short. Could my welded on tabs be off a bit? Just by comparing the pics in the instuctions to my tabs, mine seem to be back to the rear more. (please, please don't tell me this is screwed up) The instuctions say that the upper link should of started with an 9 1/4" center to center measurement and that appears way to short.

Any help especially from the ART guys or Frank would be appreciated.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/P1010027-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/P1010023-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/P10100291-1.jpg

Vegas69

02-17-2009, 10:06 PM

Get the lower bars intalled and put the rear end on jackstands without the shocks and springs. Install your wheels and put it right where you want it. Measure your drivetrain angle off the harmonic balancer or the ujoint out of the tail shaft of the transmission. The rear end should be .5-1 degree down from the driveline angle but opposite. For example my setup.

Drivetrain angle 4 degrees down
Pinion angle 3.5 up

My wheels are centered in the wheel wells and no rear end vibration with my GBAR.

JRouche

02-17-2009, 11:27 PM

Ok, Im a lil lost on the spacer idea. Thats just me, not your description.

I have a art morrison 4-link in place already so prolly not much help. I had the axle set at the proper angle for the pinion angle and bar setting. Lower bar is parallel to horizontal for ride height. Upper bar has a slight downward stance, pointing down to the front. I had my art morrison coilovers at ride height and made upper shockwave mounts to the frame by measuring up from the axle mounts I made. Mine (shockwaves) are 14.56" center to center. So after the axle mounts were in place I measured up and tacked in the upper mounts.

To do this I made some solid struts, with the exact eye to eye distance that the shockwaves were going to be at. I didnt wanna be welding around the rubber bladders. So with the lower side of the strut firmly bolted in place on the axle and the upper mount attached I welded it to the frame. Its a solid mount now, and even on both sides.

And I still have the solid struts in place as I am welding the watts link in place. With the struts being solid I am sure it places the axle in the proper alignment for the watts link (pan hard bar still in place for lateral placement). The whole car is on the struts.

For your pinion angle, I cant really see if the upper bar placement is to far back on the axle. I would have to be there. It looks a lil bit tilted back. On most four bars I have seen they still have the eyes for the lower and upper in a similar vertical alignment. Yours looks like the upper eyes are tilted way back?? But its not a parallel four bar right? A triangulated four bar. So the upper eyes may be back from the lowers.

But whatever the case, you are right, you should have more than a few threads holding the bars in. Can you scoot the lower bars in more (with the threads) to gain some threads on the uppers while still keeping the proper pinion angle.

Really, thats the only reason I went with a 4-link, for pinion adjustability during my build. If I knew the proper angle I needed I would not have needed to go with the 4-link. Kinda bassakwards but it works for me. JR

darren@ridetech

02-18-2009, 05:30 AM

What do you have pinion angle set at? What angle is the tranny/motor at?

ProdigyCustoms

02-18-2009, 06:16 AM

Vegas69

02-18-2009, 08:13 AM

Since I'm such a nice guy.....I found that one full turn on the upper bars netted a 1/2 degree pinion angle change. I'd get the car as level as possible next. You can level the car off the rocker panel. It doesn't have to be perfect but you need it on 4 jack stands.

Munster

02-18-2009, 11:09 AM

The car is nose down, yes, so I'm going off the dampner. It reads about 3 1/2 degrees. The pinion face on the rear is about 10 degrees. The angle finder gauge is gravity based so since the motor is fully bolted in and trany on the nose down angle should not be a factor. They are both realevent to each other as long as the rear is at ride height and the motort/tran are bolted solid. I need to find a measurement so I can place the rear close to a known ride height instead of my guessing. I looked at the instuctions close and the thepic of the spacer tacked in looks like I could place it on the inside of the frame rail and be within 1/2" or so. So I will try that, but it still looks like when I pull the pinion nose of the rear up to match the angle of the motor I will still have to thread the adjustable eye of the top link out, either to none or very little threads still engaged in the link. How much thread should you be looking for? I think it should at least be 1/2" or better thread to thread contact. I have to take my daughter to the airport so it will be tomarrow before I can check again.

Munster

02-18-2009, 11:28 AM

Call me, Looks like your pinion angle is up right now best I can tell. Looks like the front of your car is down, the rear is in the air, and you have the rear level, which would be up a ton. The car needs to be level. -.5 would be perfect and adjust from there.

The brackets are jig welded and we sold 47 rears last year. BUT, they are built by humans also.

Frank I don't even know if I have a problem yet. Usually it is just me being a dumb a$$. I just want to get the ride height nailed so I can take that factor out. I will call first chance I get. Just a busy time for me with all thats going on here.

The nose(of car) is down but the rear end is pointing toward the ground quiet a bit not level.

dhutton

02-18-2009, 04:12 PM

Check your eye to eye measurement for the shock. It should be 14.5 to 15 inches at ride height.

darren@ridetech

02-19-2009, 01:57 PM

Check your eye to eye measurement for the shock. It should be 14.5 to 15 inches at ride height.

Frank, do you know which holes the lower mount should be bolted to on that axle?

JRouche

02-19-2009, 07:26 PM

Just a lil more info. I built my mounts while the rear was way up in the air and the front on the ground. I have a SPI digital protractor (cheap). Whats really nice about them is you can take a measurement, say yer looking for vertical. I take a frame reading that I know is vertical for the car and I can now take that anywhere on the car, even when its on an incline, its a relative number, and get vertical. Works great for pinion angles. Shoot the block face then the pinion face, compare the two, it does it for you. Even shoot the drive shaft and compare the actual pinion angle and drive shaft angle. Shoot the frame on a horizontal and then the drive shaft, gives you your drive shaft angle. Looking for offset angles side to side, say you want a mirror image of a link from drivers side to pass? Simple, just rotate the protractor. I wish I had the digital protractor years ago. And the next task for it is gonna be front end alignment. Yeah, camber readings are gonna be a snap now. Indispensable tool. JR

Munster

02-20-2009, 06:39 PM

Ok, Im back. Thanks for the replys. Went to the garage today and set up my car using the 14 1/2" to 15" distance for the shock mounts center to center. So with bottom links hooked up, axle at ride height, shock eye distance 14 3/4" exact on both, top bars loose not attached, pinion angle set to match front harmonic pulley at 92 degrees equals the following.... top link mounting holes then have a center to center measuement for lenght of 10 1/4". Which is 1" over the 9 1/4" they are supposed to be set at not to mention that the top links will not go to 10 1/4". At this point I called Frank at Prodigy, who thankfully is a great guy, and let him know I have checked and double checked and tried to rule out all errors, what I have which appears to be the top link brackets welded to far back, he said he could make up a set of longer upper links and send them out, and I thought problem solved till I went back out to the garage. And put my rear wheels on with the rear axel, which is still set up on stands and blocked to simulate the longer links in place. And found a problem, since the lower link is a fixed attaching point near the bottom of the wheel, in relation to the axel, when I pivoted the snout of the pinion up to get the correct angle the 1" longer top link translates to (because of that axis point of the lower link at lower edge of the wheel) the top of the tire/wheel moving backward in the wheel well about 2 1/2". That making the trailling edge of the tire about 1 to 1 1/4" closer to the rear edge of the wheel well. Damn, damn, damn, so next part of the story.

I pulled the wheel, put the top links back together made them 9 1/4" long and reattached them to there mounting points, shock eye center to center still near 15" all set up as it should be as if bolt ed in from the box per instructions. All is good the wheel/tire is back to the center of the wheel well the shock mounting bolts 15" apart and parallel, top and bottom, but......pinion angle is at 80 degrees, pointing in a more downward direction, than a near level or slight upward angle that is the 92 degrees to match the motor and trans. All is great except for that major downward pinion snout angle which can only point to both top and bottom bracket sets are clocked out a certain number of degrees on the axel housing for whatever reason. Which brings me to part three of the story...please bare with me. I have to do this all with in the edit feature to keep it all in the first post since when I write slow I get kicked out and loose what I have typed. In someone replys as I'm writing. Sorry, dont know why it does it.

The lower link bars will have to be able to be shortend up and the upper links will have to be able to be lengthened. this allowing the lower mount to be pulled forward and the upper mount to be pushed rearword in a sence clocking the pinion angle into place without moving the wheel and tire backward in the wheel well which is ugly and not an acceptable appearance, very noticeable. All of this works to acheive the pinion angle but at the expense of then having the upper and lower shock mounting bolts no longer parallel, but I can figure out a way to shim the lower mount at an angle in conjuction with making for a little wiggle room on the top bolt holes. To me this would be a lot easier than redoing the whole thing.

It is the weekend now and I only was able to talk to Frank on his personal time when I got a hold of him. I know he has his well deserved time away from us. I will try to pass on what I found when he is back at work unless he happens to read my scratch here.

Anyone reading this probably would jump to the conclusion that I am tring to get something for free, but beleive me I would be very happy if this was not a problem and I bolted it in and of to the next phase. Ive had the links painted rear smoothed up in heavy powder coat and just tring to move on. It was mock tested for fit but not down to final pinion angle. Just to mention when the pinion is at the 80 degrees if I pull the bottom of the angle finder out about 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch from the lower u-jount mount surface that is what it takes to simulate 92 degrees not much there but it gets multiplied as a problem as you rotate the axel to compensate.

P.S. I will download pics, to help translate or make clearer what I'm trying to say, as soon as the wife gets thru setting up our new laptop we got so I can communicate with the world when I am up in Alaska forever.

ProdigyCustoms

02-20-2009, 07:11 PM

No chance this car has a aftermarket full floor in it is there?

Munster

02-20-2009, 07:58 PM

No chance this car has a aftermarket full floor in it is there?

Frank

Car was 90k original, no evidence of repair down to factory body work under the orignal first factory paint. Floors still perfect and all stock jute and sound pads and overspray was present.

Quarters and mini tubs were done with very minimal if any fit problems and were only done to get the Camaro look.

Vegas69

02-20-2009, 08:01 PM

Sounds like you need a set of adjustable lowers where you can center the axle in the wheel well square to the car with the proper pinion angle. Then you can either move the cradle on the frame or have some longer upper bars made. What is your drivetrain angle? I still wold like to see you level the rockers and measure your actual drive train angle to make sure it's not out of spec.

Munster

02-20-2009, 08:09 PM

Im starting to beleive that for whatever reason the brackets got welded on a couple degrees off. Any suggestions on how to measure or compare pics to verify this from anyone would be appreciated.
My wife should be done with the computer swap in a coulpe hours so I can put up my pics. Then someone might be able to care them to some they might have. The big tale tale thing to me is when I look at putting the pinion angle right and it pulls the lower shock mounting bolt way out of parallel with the upper one which is part of the airbar bridge and only can go in one way with almost no room for error. The pics will show how well everything lines up but with pinion pointing down severly.

Vegas69

02-20-2009, 08:12 PM

That sure is the only logical explanation unless the lower bars were made to long. Maybe get some specs from Chris Alston on how long they are supposed to be.

JRouche

02-20-2009, 08:56 PM

If you are positive with the your pinion angle measurements, and perfect on the ride height it seems like a simple fix is shorter lower links. Pretty easy fix. JR Oh, but that puts the shock mounts off from vertical huh? Hmm. A spacer on the bottom shock mount will fix that.

Munster

02-20-2009, 09:53 PM

That sure is the only logical explanation unless the lower bars were made to long. Maybe get some specs from Chris Alston on how long they are supposed to be.

Vegas69

What you mention, I already mentioned to Frank earlier. I was looking at my packaging receipt from air ride tech, to see if there was a miss ship on the link bars and noticed that the part numbers for the links seemed pretty close to there length in inches so I measured them and they are the same length as if there part number was in inches. So I take it they made there length as part of the part #. And they are right.

Vegas69

02-20-2009, 09:57 PM

I'd tape the car as well. You can find body specs on camaros.net easily. I'm sure Frank is getting at a floor pan that was welded in to far to the rear. Even if you think it's stock, measure it. You can meassure from the shackle bushing housing to the hole for the finger in the leaf spring shackle housing on the body. There is a spec. If that checks out then it has to be your rear.

Munster

02-20-2009, 10:03 PM

Ok I will try to get some picture to convey some of what I'm seeing. Anyone from Air Ride Tech have thaughts of suggestions.

Pic 1......far away veiw shows the lower links and how it extends out and near level to the rocker panel body seam line. The rear of the lower link is a bit down if compared to being parallel with the rocker line. This pic is with the upper links and all installed per instructions. Note rear shock hanging and lower shock mounting block perfectly parrellel with edge of shock eye also look past lower link bar and note pinion snout pointing towards ground. Imagine the lower link as being oriented as the motor and tranny are, forward end of link up, trailing end of link down such as front of engine up, tail of tranny down..just imagine.. then look at pinion. Way out almost exactly opossite of the angle it should be. https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/P10100491-1.jpg

Close up of what I'm talking about.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/P1010050-1.jpg

Pic 3....Here you can see what i mean about the shock mounting. Just right in the pic, no problems, then imagine rotating axel to bring pinion nose up with shorter lower link. That would twist the lower shock mount blocks lower edge forward so the two bolts that go thru the eyes would then no longer be parallel. But as I said I can compensate for that.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/P10100471-1.jpg

Vegas69

02-20-2009, 10:08 PM

The axle looks to close to the front not rear. Your pinion angle is way to far down. You need the wheels on....bottom line. If your driveline angle slopes down 4 degrees......your pinion angle needs to be 4 degrees towards the top of the car. Or drivline 4 degrees down of level and pinion 4 degrees up of level. Mine wheels are perfectly centered with my GBar.

Munster

02-20-2009, 10:37 PM

Heres a pic1 of the wheels on the set up above. All suspension installed per instructions, pinion pointed down tho. Look thru wheel. Wheel centered in wheel well, every thing good except that pinion angle.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/P10100401-1.jpg

Below..Pic2.. wheel on with pinion oriented to same degree as the motor/tran. Im not prfectly centered on the hub cap in both pics but you can still tell how bad it is. Also look thru the wheel at what is the rear dif cover and note the verticle line of the very back of the cover,...now look at the other pic. Lower pic is pinion angle right.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/P10100341-1.jpg

Pics 3 & 4....show inches when wheel is in the more centered pic above
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/P10100431-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/P10100451-1.jpg

Munster

02-20-2009, 10:56 PM

Pic 1 below..This is the top link with the pinion angle set right. Not even close.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/P10100331-1.jpg

Pic2 below.....link back together at recomended length. Note short coming. This is where if I just put in a longer upper link it has the wheel/tire way far back in the wheel well.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/P10100391-1.jpg

Vegas69

02-20-2009, 11:11 PM

Here is the deal.....level out your rockers on jack stands and lets see what your drive train angle is. If it's 5 degrees then you need to shim your transmission towards the body and that will give you less upward pinion angle which may just center your rear. Until then I wouldn't speculate any further.

Munster

02-20-2009, 11:27 PM

Point taken. I will place the front up tomarrow and level the rockers then seen what the front of the motor reads then and the rear angle. Gotta find a couple more stands.

Vegas69

02-20-2009, 11:45 PM

ProdigyCustoms

02-21-2009, 04:33 AM

Does sound like the lower tabs are off a couple degrees. They are jig welded.................by humans. So maybe they are.

Just send me all the bars, I wil do the Prodigy Bar treatment to them which will make the lowers single adjustable and the uppers double adjustable.

JRouche

02-21-2009, 10:26 AM

Munster

02-21-2009, 10:29 AM

Frank

I appreciate it. I will send them to you. It does bug me tho that it would likely be Mosers mistake and you are the one willing to fix it. But I will take you up on your offer, I need it in place to get back to the bodyshop.

My guess on the error is if you look at the top pic on the page it shows the pinion angle almost exactly opossite what it should be as if when being placed in the jig it was set at a certain degrees over 90* instead of a certain degrees under 90* or vise versa. As far as the welding jig, do you know what they use to intially set the axel up in it? I was wondering if they use the axel flange ends and maybe my ford ends were welded on a bit off. Wouldn't see it on a normal app but would cause the problem in the jig. Just guessin, could be anything. Another thing I did notice is the lower welded on link mount has two seperate flat surfaces, one where the shock mount bolts on and one directly above. They both have a distinct angle, and when my pinion angle is right the lower one is in line with the shock and when my pinion is set to where it is wrong the upper one is in line with the shock. Could just be coincidence. But if those surfaces are used as a factor in the jig maybe that could be a place for the error also. Still just guessing. Like you said I might just be (am) the unlucky one out of all of them.

Munster

02-21-2009, 10:33 AM

Then he still has the issue with the shock mounts twisting the shocks. JR

Jr
My idea is, if the new bars end up with enough adjustability to get the pinion right, I will just have my father inlaw machine me a set of wedges to place behind the lower shock mount block to bring the shock mounting points back to parallel. coulpe new bolts and some massaging should be ok.

Just hope that the alterred pivot points still allow the pinion angle change ratio to be right, with suspension movement up and down, still acceptable and does not cause vibrations when hitting bumps in the road. This is assuming the upper and lower link pivot points were computer designed with arcs set to cause that ratio of pinion angle change, thru suspension travel, to be maintained at the set level. And hopefully by altering those I'm not causing problems. I'm not sure if it was engineered down that far or if the bar was just set up using available room to govern the design. Hope fully the latter.

Vegas69

02-21-2009, 10:56 AM

Then he still has the issue with the shock mounts twisting the shocks. JR
Not neccesarily, with the pinion angle correct the wheels are not centered in the wheel well. With it centered it should improve the angle. The bushings have some give in them anyway.

Munster

02-21-2009, 10:59 AM

Awesome...harbor china has some nice heavy duty stands cheap or sears has some china stands expensive. LOL I have a set of both. Those 1972 specials need replaced bro....I'd pitch in to save a life.:cheers:

Vegas

Which ones do you refer to as '72. The yellow ones are very old but I thought they seamed pretty sturdy. Do you know of a problem with them. Or are you referring to the cheap red ones, those bug me bad, but I borrowed them from my neighbor. Either way I know I need to replace the red set, but I would also like to know if the others have a problem I'm not aware of. Thanks for looking out for me. We can never be to safe.

Vegas69

02-21-2009, 11:05 AM

Definitely the Red stands. Go buy a sturdy set of 4. Having the front in the air will make it much easier to play with the pinion angle anyway.

Munster

02-21-2009, 11:22 AM

JRouche

02-21-2009, 09:19 PM

Jr
My idea is, if the new bars end up with enough adjustability to get the pinion right, I will just have my father inlaw machine me a set of wedges to place behind the lower shock mount block to bring the shock mounting points back to parallel.

Exactly. Thats the same thing I was picturing in my head. That should do it. Either that or slice off the top mounts and move them back a lil. I have a plasma so that might be my route. I also have a full on machine shop so some wedged spacers would work too. Just a shame you are having to deal with this. The lower shock mounts seem to be the issue. They are clocked "off" compared to the center section. Its easy to see. With the shock mounts vertical the center section is pointed down. JR

JRouche

02-21-2009, 09:27 PM

Not neccesarily, with the pinion angle correct the wheels are not centered in the wheel well. With it centered it should improve the angle. The bushings have some give in them anyway.

When the wheel is centered and the pinion angle correct his shocks, (when bolted up firmly to the lower mounts) will be pointing way back. The shockwaves, (i thought he said he was using those) only have a lil amount of rubber to take up the offset, they wont go far past a 1/16" IMO. And I would not even like to see that much offset. They should be able to go straight in, without any binding. He will get enough binding with normal suspension travel. At a static ride height I would want the shock ends to go in smoothly, no forcing them. JR

ProdigyCustoms

02-22-2009, 03:58 AM

Frank

I appreciate it. I will send them to you. It does bug me tho that it would likely be Mosers mistake and you are the one willing to fix it. .

Look, it's like I told you on the phone, were here 100% on these projects to the end. No matter what it takes we always handle it.

Vegas69

02-22-2009, 08:57 AM

I see what your talking about now.

JRouche

02-22-2009, 10:14 AM

Look, it's like I told you on the phone, were here 100% on these projects to the end. No matter what it takes we always handle it.

Now THAT is service!!!!!! :twothumbs Hats off to you!!! JR

Munster

02-22-2009, 04:02 PM

vegas 69

Just to let you know, I take what you were asking seriously into consideration and help myself rule out my human error. Here is my car levelled out, and the reading were...86 1/2* on the damper and 95* on the pinion. The 86 1/2* Translates to minus 3 1/2* for the motor/trans rake and I'll have to look somewhere but I think that is close to norm. But the pinion translates to posative 5*. Total of 8 1/2 degrees differance, still the same as before

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/040-1.jpg

Vegas69

02-22-2009, 04:27 PM

What did your drivetrain angle end up at? Looks good too!

bret

02-24-2009, 03:12 AM

darren@ridetech

02-24-2009, 07:40 AM

Vegas69

What you mention, I already mentioned to Frank earlier. I was looking at my packaging receipt from air ride tech, to see if there was a miss ship on the link bars and noticed that the part numbers for the links seemed pretty close to there length in inches so I measured them and they are the same length as if there part number was in inches. So I take it they made there length as part of the part #. And they are right.

The lower bars should be 24.75" from c-c.

Munster

02-24-2009, 10:54 PM

There are several ways to set a correct driveline/pinion angle. Here is the simple way that we do it:

1. Level the car at the rocker panels. Use an inexpensive digital level from Lowes or Home Depot. They are a great investment.

2. After installing the AirBar system completely [except for welding the upper 4 link tabs to the rearend housing] position the housing at RIDE HEIGHT and then rotate the housing so that the face [vertical surface] is at 90 degrees to 92 degrees [as measured at the face of the centersection or rearend cover. In other words...dead level to 2 degrees nose UP. I measure the angle on the vertical surface because there is typically no accurate horizontal surface to measure from.

3. With the weld-on tabs assembled onto the upper bars, AND the upper bars installed into their upper frame mounts, position the upper bars and tabs against the rearend and weld the tabs into position.

The end result is that you want the the angle of the engine/trans [which should be around 2 degrees tail down] to be parallel with the pinion angle [which will be around 2 degrees nose up].

When setting the poinion angle, don't stress terribly about an exact ride height. Our AirBar doesn't have a radical pinion angle change during the middle of the suspension travel. If you can guess within an inch or so, you're good.

With this method you will be close enough that any final adjustments can be made with the threaded adjusters. You will need to make sure that you keep at least 1.25" of thread engaged in the bar to maintain proper strength.

Darren and Bret

Lower link/bar measurement is correctas discussed earlier in the thread.

I understand all you wrote here. The problem here is that the rear was prewelded at moser and after lots of deduction, reasoning, trial fitting and positioning, it has been discovered that the rear end was welded with what was to be the nose up pinion attitude became a nose down attitude. I beleive it was the right amount of angle just below the 90 degree plane instead of above it.

But sinse you are here could you shed some light on my concern about something. Frank at Prodigey has offered to rework my upper and lower links to make them adjustable, which is great and very much appreciated. My question is the top bar will be longer and the bottom bar shorter to correct the problem, to move the pinion from nose down to nose up attitude. Will this interfere with the way the pinion moves up and down with the suspension movement or do you think it will be ok. If you read back aways you will see what I'm referring to. Thanks, LaMont

bret

03-01-2009, 02:03 PM

The short answer is " no problem".

The rear axle should be 1. centered in the wheelwell from front to back. 2. centered in the car from side to side. 3. level from side to side at highway ride height. 4. from a side view, rotated so that the pinion angle is very close to matching the engine/trans angle.
After you have acheived all of this, make the bars fit the mounts. Make sure you run the suspension completely through its travel to ensure there is no binding or interference with anything.

While changing the length of the bars will theroretically change the instant center, anti dive, roll steer, and pinion angle migration characteristics, the changes you are talking about [fractions of an inch] will have no discernable effect.

This is just another issue for a hotrodder to overcome to get a car built. Good luck!

JRouche

03-01-2009, 07:17 PM

bret

03-03-2009, 03:11 PM

As my Dad once explained to me..."It's just a car." Actually he used the word "tractor", but you get the idea. :)

Gandalf

05-22-2011, 10:57 PM

Reviving an old but extreemly relevent thread here. Seems all the right people all have eyes on this thread already - hopefully still subscribed. While having the exhaust on my '69 Camaro installed, the installer wanted us to dial-in the final pinion angle on the suspension before he tackled the up-and-over-the-rear since there was already a very limited amount of space. Fair request - needed to be done sometime and I'd rather not have to redo things later. Long story short - the original thread poster here has described exactly what we ran into today when trying to set the correct pinion angle. I have the v1.0 Air Bar with coil-overs, cradle welded in and believed to be correct (indexed) placement on the frame rails. Similar to this poster, the rear is a Moser (9" in my case) housing which came jig-welded and setup for an Airbar/G-Bar.

The lower links appear to be situated correctly and so in rolling the rear end back up

The pinion has a heavy bias down when the top links were set as recomended with 9-1/4" c-c (like a ridiculous 8+ degrees down). When I try to set the pinion angle, I ran out of thread on those upper links! The car is up on 4 jackstands (nice 10-ton stands - just for Todd :-)) and measured level at the rocker. So what to do?

Thoughts, opinions? Help. We are on the home stretch here and this definitely is a show-stopper until we get it figured out.
Thanks guys.
G.

Vegas69

05-23-2011, 07:01 AM

I'm glad you brought this thread back to light. I've got 6000 miles and about 20 races on this set up with some modifcations and tweaking.

Brett mentions that the ideal driveline angle is 2 degrees with a pinion angle of 2 degrees equal and opposite. I totally agree, the less drive train angle the better. First thing I would do is jack the trans up until you have minimal tunnel clearance. I've got 3.5 degrees of driveline angle and that's the best I can do because of my half height body mounts. That requires a compromise. Mainly in running unconventional angles. I have my pinion 2 degrees below level to get my front and rear u joint working angles under 3 degrees. (You notice I have changed it since I posted 2 years ago)

To center the rear end from side to side, you simply adjust ONE upper to move it in the desired direction. I've changed out my upper links to have an adjustable sleeve. This will also let you tailor your length as neccessary.

If your car is mini tubbed, you may need to move your lower shock mount inboard to keep the shock housing from rubbing on the wheel. The wheels and axle will flex 3-5mm.

Gandalf

05-24-2011, 10:03 AM

Thanks Todd - interesting stuff. Currently I'm at 4.5deg down at the back of the trans and the car is mini-tubbed.

At the rear, with those top links wound out to only 1/2" from the end of the thread (obviously I won't run them like that) and at close to ride-height, I still measure 4.5deg DOWN. So I'm about 6.5deg off where we are talking about ending-up (2deg up). I can only assume something is off with the bracket positioning on this housing (ironic since the reason I purchased it was thinking it was already setup and one less thing to mess with). That is a pre-mature assumption at this stage but even with the "these cars are 40yrs old and no two are the same", I cannot figure out what else might be off by THAT much.

Darren has been in contact and re-iterated information consistent with what you are suggesting and confirmed where things should be (ride height, lower arm length etc). The G-Bar/AirBar components are confirmed to be not at fault here and measure as designed.

Naturally I'm concerned about just rolling the top of the rear backward (lengthen the top links) without knowing why it is like this in the first place. If the top link mounts on the rear are incorrectly positioned, that limits clearance between the links and the housing itself toward the top of compression and I also need to watch the wheel staying centered in the opening (similar to the original poster of this thread). If the housing wasn't now fully loaded (center section, axles, brakes etc) AND already powdercoated - I'd have no hesitation in cutting and welding new brackets. In defense of the rear housing, I know Frank sold a bunch of these so it's hard to believe one or two are like this (ie: there must be something else wrong) but I'm running out of ideas as to what or why I'm even having the issue to begin with. I'll go see if I can take some measurements to compare to others.

In the meantime, I'll give Frank a call and see if we can figure something out.

Vegas69

05-24-2011, 03:58 PM

You can call me to discuss. It's to confusing to explain.

Z06vet

05-24-2011, 06:25 PM

Well, well, and I thought I screwed something up installing my setup. I have the EXACT same problem. Moser 12 bolt, Gbar with coil overs. I can't get the pinion angle up 3degrees without running out of threads. Right now its at 0, driveline down 3.1 degrees. To ad insult, the gear whine is absolutely unbearable from about 40mph up to 60mph. Any gear, at cruise. Accelerate or let off, it goes away. Talked to moser, and they said its because of the pinion angle is off. Fair enough. Never heard of that, but I'll try it. Too bad I can't adjust the pinion angle. Now, I'm about to hit the powertour in like 10 days. Where can I get longer bars- QUICKLY? I left a message for Frank, but I know he's in the middle of moving the shop. Any help/input is greatly appreciated. Scott

pedro

05-25-2011, 06:55 AM

I have similar set up (moser 12 bolt, airbar modified by frank with adj ends) with same issues. I had longer bars made by Virginia Speed so I could move the pinion up. It did nothing for my vibration issues (I tried every angle between 4 up to 4 down). Moving the pinion up does make the lip on the diff cover hit the cross member earlier and bring the upper bars closer to the axle tubes on full suspension compression (but they do not hit, at least not before the dif cover). I ended up leaving pinion at zero with the originial upper bars (still have the VA speed ones if you need them).

No issues with gear whine... just the huge amount of play in the trutrac making it difficult to shift smooth or drive at parking lot speeds.
Pete

Z06vet

05-25-2011, 07:13 AM

Where (at what speed) does your vibration occur? The only vibration I have is under light accel at lower rpms. Barely noticeable, but if my hand is on the shifter, I can feel it. At 70+ mph mine is smooth as can be. PM me a price on the bars, I may try them. Not sure pinion angle is causing the gear whine. But I guess I will need to run it with higher pinion angle before moser will do anything about it. Scott

Vegas69

05-25-2011, 07:22 AM

Bull **** on the whine due to the pinion angle.

You guys can get SPC adjustable sleeves in different lengths. You just need a right hand and left hand thread end link which you have with the Prodigy Bar. Not sure about the stock air bar stuff. They come in black aluminum which is what I'm running.
www.spcperformance.com or Jegs/Summit

Gandalf

05-29-2011, 08:29 AM

Just a quick update guys. I spoke to Frank right after my last post and although neither of us is sure what the cause of the issue is yet, Frank was all about doing whatever necessary to figure out a solution with me. So Frank stepped up immediately and offered to send me some rod-ends for the upper bars (all on his dime - thanks Frank!). This will effectively lengthen the upper links and enable us to roll the rear-end back to dial in the correct pinion angle.

Hopefully the wheel will remain centered in the wheel-well at ride-height. Something else would have to be way off for that to happen since the lower bar is non-adjustable and provides a static placement of the rear (admitedly based on the placement of the pre-attached lower brackets on the housing). If it does affect placement of the wheel, we will look at adding adjustment to the lower bars but at this time we'll tackle it from the top.

So the process will be to cut the non-adjustable end from the upper bars and have them threaded 3/4"-16. Frank was confident that adding an adjustable rod-end to the other end of the upper bar would give us enough adjustment overall. Hopefully the rod-ends will have spacers or equivilent to bolt into the existing brackets/hardware without need for further modification. Not sure if he's sending 2 or 4 rod-ends but I should know this week and be able to report back what happens.

Kudos to Frank for no-hesitation support of vendor products like this!

Ron.in.SoCal

05-29-2011, 12:40 PM

Great story Gregg. Plan sounds about right from what I read about Todd's build so hopefully that's the trick...

Gandalf

06-21-2011, 11:05 AM

An update on this rear-end fiasco. The G-Bar/AirBar components are all in spec and correctly positioned. Turns out the 9" housing that was pre-welded by Moser to fit the G-Bar setup has all FOUR brackets incorrectly positioned on the housing! They appear to all be clocked wrong. I've since learned that I'm not the only one (some of you may have seen the recent 48hr build Camaro also ran into the same issue). Obviously the original poster of this thread (which I seem to have hijacked) is another. I am not sure how many others there are but I would expect minimal.

Well it seems Frank forgot he was going to send me any parts so I waited 2wks for nothing. So last week I went out an purchased some rod ends locally. I had a suspension shop machine new upper bars (could have cut the ends off the old ones but chose not to) and threaded each end. They also machined down the misalignment spacers to the correct width for the brackets. That allowed me to dial in the pinion angle but now the wheels were sitting way back in the wheel well (keep in mind we did not know exactly what was wrong with the brackets at the time).

So another several hours spent pissing around chasing parts and going to and from the machine shop to get the bottom bars cut down and replace the rear bushings with rod-ends. With that done, the pinion angle now looks doable and the wheels back nearer the center. Now, because the bottom bracket is not where it is supposed to be on the housing, the lower shock mount is under stress just to be connected - that cannot be good. Frank has suggested making a wedge to fit in there but I'm about over this whole setup!

So, while I agree with Bret that it's just part of HotRodding, here's my point: I purchased this rear end setup from a vendor (over $1,000 for the axels and housing) specifically so I did not have to deal with this cr*p. Here I am with another $400+ in parts and machine-shop labor plus a solid 2+days of my own labor to have something that's "close-enough". This is one of THEE components that I selected specifically because I knew I was not going to want to deal with brackets and angles and additional welding, beyond setting the pinion angle. So I've spent my money twice to have something that's just "ok". I have WAY more time and money into this rear than I would have if I'd NOT purchased the pre-welded housing! Not happy. NEVER again!

So be warned - if you have one of these pre-welded rear ends from Moser and not tried to fit it yet - you had better check to make sure it's within spec. I'm just sayin'.

G.

Z06vet

06-21-2011, 12:03 PM

I'm in the same boat with you guys. To boot, the moser 12 whines like a stuck pig- even worse since doing the powertour after some 1/4 mi runs at the strip. Moser wanted me to send the entire rear back to them for them to look at it. I'm not really set up for that, and I couldnt gaurantee they say everything looks fine. Ten I'd pay to ship it back, possibly. The sent me new gears & install kit at no charge. I still have to fork over the $ for installation. After all that, I'm having to deal with the pinion angle issue. My trans is driveline is down 3, pinion at 0. The driveshaft is almost parallel- maybe .25 down. If I raise the pinion angle (which I can't do because im out of threads) the driveshaft will soon be going up toward the pinion. Which is worse- upward sloping driveshaft or pinion angle too low? My rear wheel is slightly offset to the rear, but i'm guessing that will get worse if I try in raise the pinion angle. I would have been much better off using an 8.5 10 bolt, building it, and welding the brackets on myself. Very frustrating to dump a bunch of money on something I expected to be a bolt in. I don't even know who to consult anymore. Everyone has different opinions and suggestions. I thought of just getting some longer threaded adjusters, so I can play with pinion angle without spending a lot more $. That way I'd still have enough threads in the upper bars and still drive the car. If vibration improves, I'll move forward. Its really very minor, especially compared to the screaming gears. Going to fix that issue first. Keeping an eye on this thread.

ProdigyCustoms

06-21-2011, 05:41 PM

ZO6, you need 1/2 longer upper arms will solve you pinion angle issue. A 1/2 won't move the tire in the opening but a 1/8" or so but will give you another degree up on the pinion.

So did I read right Moser sent you gears? You would be better served to ship it back and let them do it. We need to chat about that.

ProdigyCustoms

06-21-2011, 05:45 PM

Gandalf, As I told you today. I can have another housing built for you, but this is the only one I have heard of with lower bracket issues. Out of all the rears, longer uppers have solved every problem.

I need a picture of the shock / spiring into housing interference. I know yor using a different shock / spring combo, I need to see the mock up.

We talked about your running this lower then it is built for, I would like to see moch up pics to see if that is causing any problem.

Gandalf

06-23-2011, 11:59 AM

Frank – thanks for taking the time and the offer of the new housing when I emailed again to ask about contacting Moser myself. Your offer is appreciated and I will absolutely take it. I felt it was necessary to call you multiple times and send multiple email messages throughout this process because I thought it only fair that you be consulted every step of the way.

As for the cause, I really can’t speculate beyond what I am seeing which I have described both here. The original poster of this thread really managed to describe almost exactly what I have experienced. You even mentioned yourself in post#28 of this thread that it sounded “like the lower tabs are off a couple degrees”.

The thread goes on to address the lower shock mounts which is exactly where I am at right now, having already paid to alter both the upper and lower bars. To be clear; the shock body does not make contact with the housing. My concern is for the angle at which the lower shock (poly) bushing is now pre-loaded when attaching to the mount. At 2deg pinion angle, the wheels now back to centered in the wheel opening and the suspension at ride height, I measure 7.5deg from vertical on that mount face. I have to fight the shocks to get them mounted in place. That cannot be right.

The difference between this poster and myself (apart from mine being a 9” housing and his being a 12bolt) is that I had to go ahead and purchase the parts myself and pay to have the links machined to accept them. I’m $400+ deep into fixing this problem which should clearly not have existed in the first place and it seems I am not done yet. I don’t blame you. I’m just out of patience and not spending one more dime to fix this. I absolutely appreciate your offer to send a new housing and I look forward to receiving it. I can only hope you get things worked out with Moser so you are not out of pocket yourself like I am. Even going this route I will have to eat the cost of having powdercoated this housing and then powdercoat the new one, let alone the modifications completed to date. I fully own the fact that I did not fully test fit this rear prior to getting it powdercoated – having assumed it was as designed.

If there are specific measurements you need – just let me know and I will help collect the information while it’s hot. Unfortunately we are way beyond the initial issue but as stated previously – the poster has absolutely described my issue exactly and documented it well. The poster also goes on to describe my concerns about the resultant effect on the suspension travel/angles/relationship after all this modifications. Even if not well founded, we get back to the principal of having paid for and received something that is clearly not as intended.

As to my wanting to run a lower ride height - as I said in my communication earlier in the week - I own that as a separate, unrelated issue. I "want" to run it lower but right now 1) it appears I am unable to (the upper bars seem to be the first thing to make contact with the housing) and 2) in dealing with this current issue of brackets/housing, I think it unfair to everyone concerned to introduce my individual, additional wants and needs into the equation. Right now I am just trying to get it dialed-in as designed. A trick upper link like we discussed would be awesome but I figure we’ll skin one animal at a time. For now, I took your advice of not expecting to run any lower than with ¾” of an 18” tire showing at best. I’d like to be down at the lip of the wheel but I will deal with that separately, pending the necessary clearance like we talked about. But be very clear, that is not a factor here. For the sake of this exercise, I took all measurements with the car level at the rocker, shocks disconnected at the top (except for the picture of the shock mount), wheels centered and a ride height with 1.75” of tire-wall showing. The 7.5deg angle I mentioned being concerned about at the lower shock mount does not appear to alter greatly during a reasonable amount of vertical motion of the rear end.

My shock/spring combo is currently exactly what came with the GBar kit. The difference is that I had some bolt-on "extensions" made for the top mount just to simulate where I wanted to be while this all gets sorted out and finalized. Only then will I drop the $ to get new shocks/springs. So effectively consider this setup as stock.

On to the pictures....

A quick shot before takeoff. Shocks attached, wheels centered with new upper and lower links, pinion at 2deg and ride height selected to have 1.75” of tire showing at the top.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Car up in the air, shocks disconnected and rear supported. (also gratuitous jack-stand shot for Matt and Todd :))
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

It's getting crowded under here....
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Car level at the rockers. I really like this level – magnetic edge and an audible warning when you hit zero degrees.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Using a self-leveling laser which helped insure there was no guesswork when measuring wheel location and simulated ride-height. (Note that the ride height was not set in this picture - I'm just showing the method I used when measuring).
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

And here’s where I am at. The shock is vertical (0deg). The mount measures 7.5deg from vertical.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Vegas69

06-23-2011, 04:02 PM

They should've built the gbar with spherical ends on the shocks. If your pinion is at 2 degree UP, then there is no doubt the brackets are not welded correctly. I have some angle between my shock mount/shock but it's not that severe.

What are your working angles with it set up this way at ride height? Driveshaft sloping up or down to the rear?

Steve1968LS2

06-23-2011, 09:29 PM

Man, those are some NICE jackstands!!! :drool:

That aside I can't really call it your fault that you didn't pre-fit the rear before powderpainting.. I would have assumed the brackets were right also. Hang in there, your car is ALMOST there!

Gandalf

11-11-2011, 09:36 AM

To update everyone who has called, emailed and enquired when they saw the car at SEMA.....

No - I have had no further response from Frank since late June when he offered to ship me a replacement (corrected) housing from Moser. After many attempts to contact him by phone and email, I have no idea if he intends to follow through. I am hoping this gets resolved so we can all move on.

Gregg

robertjra

11-11-2011, 07:47 PM

Look, it's like I told you on the phone, were here 100% on these projects to the end. No matter what it takes we always handle it.

Frank I have never got anything from you but after looking at this I will be buying stuff from you. this is good stuff!!!!!

toofun

11-18-2011, 05:20 AM

Hey Gregg, Just throwing something out here but has anyone mentioned checking the install of the CRADLE in the car? I would think that if that was installed a little too far back or a little too far forward it could be causing the problem you are having as well?? Again maybe someone else can chime in here that has more experience in this area but wouldnt or couldnt that make a difference as well???

Mark
TOOFUN

Gandalf

11-18-2011, 08:41 AM

Hey Mark - thanks for the suggestion but yes, that was one of my initial fears. I have to figure that those symptoms could be created somewhat by the cradle sitting too far forward. If I recall when mocking-up the cradle install - it would take something to fit the cradle any more forward (I guess anything is possible if the car had replacement frame rails or prior damage but we had checked the car for square). Luckily my convertible '69 has the same setup so it was easy to do a quick comparison. The convertible has the original 12bolt with weld-on tabs for the 4-link, not the GBar. I was also able to compare the cradles themselves but being an RideTech product I doubted any issue there. The only variable that nobody can give any measurements for is the GBar bracket placement on the housing itself.

As an update - Frank emailed a few days ago and that he was sending out a replacement housing! Should have shipped yesterday so hopefully receive it next week. We'll do some quick comparison measurements before we change anything. If we see a difference like we are expecting, I'll remove and disassemble the existing one and put them both on a bench for an actual side-by-side bench comparison. That should solve the question for sure and give others something to use to measure. All going well I'll then have to send the housing to get powdercoated and go from there.

Thanks again for the suggestion Mark and exect an update next week (providing someone doesn't forget to send me the parts lol).

Gregg

toofun

11-18-2011, 10:37 AM

Hope all goes well for ya.. I just picked up an entire front and rear ridetech setup with the monster bar, tru turn, and single coil over shocks front and rear for an UNBELIEVABLE price from PTS(had a customer in a jam so it worked out really well) Anyways, I am going to be installing it when it comes in which is the reason why I found your post. Although I am using my existing 9 inch rear that is in the car currently. I was thinking of going with a completely new moser setup with the tabs already installed but after reading this whole ordeal I just can bring myself to do it... ALOT of money to spend to have problems with the setup. I certainly can understand the frustration. Any tips you can supply would be helpful.

GOODLUCK
Mark
TOOFUN

JRouche

11-19-2011, 10:02 PM

JRouche

11-19-2011, 10:08 PM

Umm, my Art Morrison rear end worked out perfectly!!! The rear end housing was welded up perfectly for the arms. Not trying to dis any other company but still????

ProdigyCustoms

11-20-2011, 05:10 AM

WOW!!! Sounds like Moser really F'ed up with the clocking of the brackets on the housing.

And now the dealers are having to take the heat.

Luckily some folks deal with great dealers (Frank at Prodigy). Dont know of many dealers that could fix the issue with a send off and receive back of an entire housing. The shipping costs alone would wreck most dealers. Im sure he has been in contact with Moser and THEY will pick up all the costs. Frank should not have to cover those costs, Moser should.

But to be honest, all the leg work (dealing with Moser) is on his dime. So you might think, yeah! Thats his job as a dealer. But hang on a sec. If you were to buy the parts from another dealer like say Summit or Jegs I have a feeling the transaction would not be as smooth. It would like pulling teeth and you would come up short with some missing teeth.

I have nothing but positive comments for Frank and Prodigy Customs. Frank is the go to man for OUR cars.

It is not really important but we are picking up the cost. This is a Prodigy Customs porduct that Moser builds for us. I am not really much into "whos to blame", more interested in making sure they are right so I can sell 100s more. I have no explanation for what happened but for a time period it seems the bracket location moved and we are replacing more then one rear. Lucky this one is a housing only

It took a while to get one, test fit, make sure were good, but it is all cost of business. And this is really our product that Moser does for us, not Moser's product.

His new housing is on the way. He should be able to fit it over the Holiday weekend.

pw2006

12-13-2011, 05:46 PM

Gregg- any updates on this? I have my moser 12 bolt/prodigy bar arriving soon. I'm knocking on wood the install goes smooth.

brownz

12-20-2011, 08:05 PM

I just took my Moser 12 bolt to moser yesterday and asked about welding on my ride tech brackets and they told me that they do not like to weld on brackets if they are test fitted to the vehicle and tacked in place. I called ride tech and asked about having the brackets installed before mock up and even ride tech says to mock up before final welding takes place. I was going to go with the specs that Prodigy gives Moser to set these up but after having issues my self with Prodigy and reading all the issues others have had I decided to take the time and mock it all up myself. This is my first time doing this so we will see how it goes but I figured it was worth the shot.

I hope all those who are having issue figure it out but I can say that ride tech offers great parts and it seems that all the issues in this thread are created by bad info given to moser on the location and position to weld the brackets on...

ProdigyCustoms

12-21-2011, 02:11 AM

Brandon, yours is a second gen. We do not have a jig at Moser for the second gen set up and can only weld the lowers in place on second gen.

Our jig is only the first gen. The first gen jig has been repaired and Moser loves doing those for us, they did 2 more this week..

Gandalf has his new housing and has already test fit it. We are sending him new lower arms as he modified his original lower arms to try and get his first housing to fit and now they do not work with the corrected housing.

brownz

12-21-2011, 04:30 AM

[QUOTE=ProdigyCustoms;865264]Brandon, yours is a second gen. We do not have a jig at Moser for the second gen set up and can only weld the lowers in place on second gen.

I know that the jig was only for a first gen. They told me they can not even do the lower brackets on a sec gen. Those were the only ones I wanted to have installed and I was going to do the uppers to set the pinion angle. Either way I hope the issue is corrected for these guys. Just sounds like a lot of people since 2009 have had a issue with this and have spent a ton of money and time. But all in all I hope it is corrected.

ProdigyCustoms

12-21-2011, 06:22 AM

Yeah, we can do the lowers but these are exclusive through us. I will have a full jig for uppers and lowers at Moser for 2nd gen after the first of the year.

69X22

12-22-2011, 01:12 AM

brownz

12-22-2011, 01:31 PM

Man be glad you got a new set of gears, mine were so loud you couldn't hold a conversation doing 40 mph. Moser said they couldn't help me because it sat in my shop for almost 2 years before I got to drive it. Tacked on another $600 to the cost of their rear-end. Frank couldn't even get them to do anything. Never again, yeah i'm bashing them....

what was the reason for the noise? Was you pinion angle off?

Z06vet

12-22-2011, 02:51 PM

Moser's excuse for the whine, at least what they told me, was pinion angle. I didnt have enough experience at the time, so I figured it was a possibility. I had almost no vibration as far up as 90mph. They did send me a new gearset and install kit, but I still paid $600 at chevrolet to have the gears installed. I had them use marking compound and take backlash measuremnts, etc. on the original gears before they pulled them. Backlash was .014" and the gear pattern was just off the edge of the ring gear. The tech said pattern on the edge of the gear is likely what caused all the noise. New gears are dead quiet. I saved the original gears, the tech's notes, and the receipts for everything & contacted moser. I asked if they'd like to see the old gears with the marking compound still on them & the tech's notes. I offered to ship them there on my dime. Thier reply was, "you can just throw them in the trash, we have no use for them". He said if I shipped the entire rear back to them, AND they found a problem with the setup, we'd have something to talk about. I just wasn't going to tear the car back apart, buy/build a crate, pay $300-$400 to ship it back, and not know if I'd ever get any compensation. They also told me " if you bought the rear directly from us, we would have told you it was going to make noise". I asked if that was because they use racing gears instead of street gears. He said "no". On top of all this I had to buy new upper bars because I could not acheive the correct pinion angle- I would run out of threads at about 0 degrees. I guess I am grateful that they sent me new gears & install kit- they could have done nothing. If Frank had not told me who to speak to, Thats probably what would have happened. It just sucks to have spent over 3 grand on a unit that was supposed to be bolt in & go, then spend almost another grand to make it right. I could have had a 12 bolt or 8.5 10 bolt built for close to half that. I've owned a bunch of cars & had lots of gear changes done- nothing I ever owned howled like this thing. Started near 40 mph and didnt go away until over 70. At 45-50 it was unbearable to drive. I'm sure mosers are good, strong rears- but I would never buy one again. I learned a lot about suspension setups & pinion angles, and especially adapting brakes & parking brake cables to work with the ford ends (i'm using C5 brakes). In the future I would rather set the rear in the car, set the pinion angle where it needs to be, than tack the brackets in place. That way I'd have plenty of adjustment either up or down, should it need to be changed for different ride heights, drag strip, autocross, etc. The whole reason I decided to spend the extra money on the moser was so I didn't have to mess with setting everything up- just bolt in & go. Ya I'm a little bitter, but it could have been worse, and I wouldnt have learned nearly as much. Scott

Vegas69

12-22-2011, 03:10 PM

Sounds like you could've shimmed the pinion and got the old set to work. You SHOULDN'T need to do such a thing.

brownz

12-22-2011, 04:52 PM

Zo6,

I hate to read that you had so many issues, I have my rear at moser right now and will be picking itup tomorrow, ( I had it cut down for a mini tub) I hope it all works out. I will be getting the rear back and doing all my own set-up with the brackets so I hope I dont have the issuse all of you have had with te pinion angle and the bars, Glad it all worked out in the end.

69X22

12-23-2011, 04:33 AM

what was the reason for the noise? Was you pinion angle off?
My pinion angle is off a little but the gear whine was a noisy gear set. Mines quiet now.

Moser's excuse for the whine, at least what they told me, was pinion angle. I didnt have enough experience at the time, so I figured it was a possibility. I had almost no vibration as far up as 90mph. They did send me a new gearset and install kit, but I still paid $600 at chevrolet to have the gears installed. I had them use marking compound and take backlash measuremnts, etc. on the original gears before they pulled them. Backlash was .014" and the gear pattern was just off the edge of the ring gear. The tech said pattern on the edge of the gear is likely what caused all the noise. New gears are dead quiet. I saved the original gears, the tech's notes, and the receipts for everything & contacted moser. I asked if they'd like to see the old gears with the marking compound still on them & the tech's notes. I offered to ship them there on my dime. Thier reply was, "you can just throw them in the trash, we have no use for them". He said if I shipped the entire rear back to them, AND they found a problem with the setup, we'd have something to talk about. I just wasn't going to tear the car back apart, buy/build a crate, pay $300-$400 to ship it back, and not know if I'd ever get any compensation. They also told me " if you bought the rear directly from us, we would have told you it was going to make noise". I asked if that was because they use racing gears instead of street gears. He said "no". On top of all this I had to buy new upper bars because I could not acheive the correct pinion angle- I would run out of threads at about 0 degrees. I guess I am grateful that they sent me new gears & install kit- they could have done nothing. If Frank had not told me who to speak to, Thats probably what would have happened. It just sucks to have spent over 3 grand on a unit that was supposed to be bolt in & go, then spend almost another grand to make it right. I could have had a 12 bolt or 8.5 10 bolt built for close to half that. I've owned a bunch of cars & had lots of gear changes done- nothing I ever owned howled like this thing. Started near 40 mph and didnt go away until over 70. At 45-50 it was unbearable to drive. I'm sure mosers are good, strong rears- but I would never buy one again. I learned a lot about suspension setups & pinion angles, and especially adapting brakes & parking brake cables to work with the ford ends (i'm using C5 brakes). In the future I would rather set the rear in the car, set the pinion angle where it needs to be, than tack the brackets in place. That way I'd have plenty of adjustment either up or down, should it need to be changed for different ride heights, drag strip, autocross, etc. The whole reason I decided to spend the extra money on the moser was so I didn't have to mess with setting everything up- just bolt in & go. Ya I'm a little bitter, but it could have been worse, and I wouldnt have learned nearly as much. Scott

I talked to the guy Frank recommended me to talk to, even told him if he sent me a new gear set I would send him the old gears back and that if it whined after that it was my baby. He wouldn't even do that. The bad part is I bought 4 complete rear-ends from Moser in the last 2 years before this happened, 2 for tri fives and 2 for Camaro G-bars. Wouldn't happen again.

gmc

05-20-2012, 12:36 PM

It looks like Moser is still having some issues with these brackets. I finally got around to installing the rear end this weekend and have pretty much the same exact problems as everyone else in this thread. With the uppers set to the recommended length, the pinion is at almost 11 degrees down. If I rotate the pinion up to zero, the uppers are too short (even extended all the way), the rear axle is shifted back over an inch and half and the lower shock mounts are at 6 degrees down. I'll be calling Frank in the morning to try to get this corrected.

toofun

05-20-2012, 04:19 PM

Get in line... I have a nine inch from Moser doing the same exact thing.. Was planning on calling Frank as well in the morning. I put the rear in this weekend but my pinion angle is 9 degrees down with the arms being way too short to adjust it to where it would be right. Im sure Frank will be able to straighten this out. I have PM'd the two people who started this thread to see what their final fix or result was but I havent heard back yet.

Gandalf

05-21-2012, 04:51 PM

That's sad to hear this is STILL going on and not been resolved. I can only imagine this stuff has to be done in a jig of some kind and something is way off or someone is using the wrong jig or something stupid. Be good to hear what Frank/Moser discover as the cause and why it keeps coming up after all this time.

As an update to mine - I started out 10deg down, went through a lot of wasted time and money to alter the 4 link bars to basically try and roll the rear back to get a shot at a decent pinion angle AND re-center the housing in the wheel-wells again. The problem with that is that the lower brackets for the the lower shock mount gets distorted and then has to deal with a pre-load (approx 7deg IIRC) which I was not ok with. The other reason that fix does not work is that if, like most of us, you want to run your PT ride with a low stance, the upper links are then that much closer to the top of the housing before any suspension travel even takes place. Fail.

So - if this gets suggested as a fix - you may want to keep those things in mind. After months and months of waiting - Frank was able to send me a replacement 9" housing. While the timing sucked and I have no idea where the source of the issue is, I thank Frank for stepping up to TRY and make things right. I tried doing some side-by-side measurements for comparison but it's the top brackets that were off on mine and there are soo many angles at play - it's hard to give an easy measurement to compare. Relative to the flat face of the 9" (the mounting flange for the center section), the lower shock mount bracket on both rear ends were within 1deg. So it has to be the upper llinks (again - they are not square to anything - needs to be measured in 3D and I'm not that smart ;-) Suffice to say the new rear housing corrected the (original) issue. Unfortunately the housing was offset differently side-to-side so I had to wait for some new axels to match the housing - even though I had supplied a copy of the original order. Just to make matters worse - the new axels shipped did not have the Wilwood access holes so we were screwed anyway (again - I'm not sure what the purpose of providing a copy of the original order was - nothing came back right anyway other than the brackets being in the correct place this time). In stead of waiting another couple months for axels - I ended up pulling the park brake mechanism out of the Wilwood configuration so we could bolt up the axels again and get the car off the lift. Never did hear back from Frank - I suspect he was over the whole thing like I was (am). I guess I'll have to figure out WTF to do for axels/access holes for the park brake.

So - guys please keep us posted on this. I think it's rediculous that you spend extra money on a part that is supposed to save you time and complexity fabricating and setting up your rear end, only to have it turn into this epic can of worms that eats up more time and money. Moser (or someone) needs to get their sh*t together. My 2c

G.

gmc

05-21-2012, 06:29 PM

Thanks for the update Gandalf. I've been in contact with Frank and I think I'm going to send it back based on your experience. Mine will be a little more difficult being a 12 bolt, but I just can't see spending the kind of money I have on the suspension and rear end only to have to make compromises. I almost wonder if I wouldn't be better off just having the leaf spring mounts welded on and using the ridetech brackets.

Vegas69

05-21-2012, 08:48 PM

Find a decent welder and move the brackets. It's not worth the headache and expense of shipping an entire rear end or dealing with vendors.

Gandalf

05-21-2012, 08:57 PM

Find a decent welder and move the brackets. It's not worth the headache and expense of shipping an entire rear end or dealing with vendors.

Some great advice Todd. Knowing what I know now, I'd look at moving the top brackets (clocking them forward on the housing). If yours is off like mine, the lower brackets are probably close or right on the money so moving those top brackets should put you in the zone. That could be a really simple fix.

G.

Vegas69

05-21-2012, 09:24 PM

I can't believe the vendors didn't push this from the start.

toofun

05-22-2012, 03:50 AM

Well I can tell you I sent an email to Frank and he responded to me right away.

In my situation he said I needed to measure the distance I needed to lenghten the bar so that I could get the right pinion angle. When I did my measurement I was at 3/4 of an inch to get it right at ride height. The threads in the Ridetech bar will extend out enough to give me what I need but then that would mean that I would only have about 1/2 inch of threads engaged in the bar. From what I remember reading another post Ridetech said that you should have 1-1/4 of an inch of thread engagement. Again that is what I remember anyways. So getting a set of upper bars that would be 3/4 of an inch longer should do the trick. Only issue now that I face is that the bottom mount seems to be cocked at an unfavorable angle for the shock mount on the bottom. I have heard of others making a wedge spacer to compensate for this but I dont know how that worked out. I am assuming it should be fine but I am not a suspension guru or engineer.

I agree that you shouldn't have to go through all of this for something you paid alot of money for but Frank so far and in the past has been really great about getting back to me and addressing any issues Ive had along the way.

Mark
TOOFUN

bret

05-22-2012, 06:26 AM

You're right...you guys should not have to go through this. BUT, at this point, it is what it is so lets see if we can fix this particular problem as effeciently as possible.

Frank and I have talked and both of us are going to contact Moser to fix the core problem [whatever and whosever it is], but in the meantime here are the basic points to consider when setting pinion angle:

* Set the car at a convenient working height so you can get under it. Make sure it is level both front to back and from side to side. Get a digital angle finder from Home Depot for $50. This tool will make your life better. Put the digital angle finder on the rocker panel or door sill to make sure it is level.

* Now put the digital angle finder on the engine. It should be about 2 degrees tail down. No more than 3. The oilpan rail is a good accurate place to take this reading. If the engine/trans is more than 3 degrees tail down, you will have to fix that. Even if it means modifying the transmission tunnel. A lot. We see this ALL the time in street rods.

* With the rearend AT RIDE HEIGHT, the pinion should be about 2 degrees UP. The goal here is to make it parallel to the angle of the engine/trans. You will likely have to place the angle finder on the face of the rear yoke to get a reading. Since this surface is 90 degrees off from the oilpan rail, just calculate the difference between 90 degrees and your observed reading to get you proper pinion angle.

*With the rearend at ride height, AND the pinion angle properly set, the lower brackets [and therefore the lower coilover/ShockWave mount should be perpendicular [90 degrees] to the ground. A degree or 2 one way or the other is likely fine, but too much angle there will cause clearance problems when you install the coilover or ShockWave.

* With the rearend still at ride height and the pinion angle adjusted properly, the upper bar should be adjusted so there is about 1/2" of thread showing. Then bolt the upper tabs to the bar, swivel the bar down on the rearend to place the tabs properly, and tack weld in place. Remove the bar and weld fully on both sides.

* IF your upper tabs are already welded in place ], AND you cannot adjust the upper bars ennough to get the proper pinion angle [which is the specific problem here], then you MIGHT be able to have longer/shorter bars built to compensate. The thing to watch for is clearance from the upper bar to the rearend housing at full compression. If the upper tabs have been installed too far back [requiring a longer upper bar to get proper pinion angle] you might have a bar/housing clearance problem. A better choice is to cut off the upper tabs and install new ones in the proper location per the procedure outline above.

I know the housing is powdercoated, I know you may not know how to weld, I know it sucks that you paid money to have this done for you but now you have to do it over. I know because I've certainly been there, and this is the solution that sucks the least.

Best I can tell, this is not a RideTech problem, but it sure isn't your's either. Frank and I will work with Moser to find out exactly what the problem is and fix it. I don't think I can make that happen today, probably not this week, but we will make progress.

toofun

05-22-2012, 06:39 AM

I think I speak for everyone who is dealing with this issue when I say "Thankyou" Bret and Frank for working together in helping to find a solution.

Mark
TOOFUN

gmc

05-22-2012, 07:19 AM

Thank you Bret, I didn't realize you were involved as well. (Btw, my wife just called and said there was a ridetech box on the porch; looks like my muscle bar is here and I can at least finish up the front suspension.)
I just spoke with Frank this morning and mine will going back for a new housing. It has to many issues to try to put a band aid on it. I'm not going to go into all the details, but Frank thinks he knows what happened and is ensuring I am taken care of. All the problems are aggravating, but as long as the manufacturer and vendor are standing behind the product and attempting to correct things, I can't complain too much. I'll post updates on the final resolution. Thanks again for all the responses.
Gary

Gandalf

05-22-2012, 07:32 AM

Thanks Bret for stepping in - this problem has been going on for too long and it needs action so others don't end up in that same position. It's a kicker even to know you just blew your hard earned money on the powdercoating, making the assumption that the piece you just bought has everything dialed-in already. Most of us are getting prepared and purchasing these parts ahead of time to keep the project moving, we get things powdercoated and when we have all the pieces - we assemble. All of that to say we don't necessarily know something is off until some time has passed in the build - this is not an easy one to "see" right out of the box so you've usually spent time and money by the time this thing is bolted up.

As well as the clearance problem with the upper brackets being laid too far back, I think it is also important when making these measurements to keep an eye on wheel placement in the wheel well. It does not take much change in those link bar lengths for that position to change drastically.

Mark (and others) - note these items and some of the previous posts before any alterations to the link bars themselves. I went down that exact route only to find the upper link bar clearance issue and the lower shock mount angle you mentioned. Again - if you are mocking-up a solution, keep an eye on the wheel placement in the opening. I used a laser level (also from Home Depot - about $40) which gave me a crosshair to align to and the added benefit of being able to take very precise measurements even with the car suspended off the floor.

I re-iterate Todd and Bret's suggestion that having the top brackets repositioned (in my case and possibly others) would be the quickest and by far the easier solution.

FWIW - in my particular case, RideTech staff worked closely with me to insure the RideTech components were to spec and installed correctly which they were. Again - I have to thank RideTech and the way Bret and his staff are continually committed to this suspension stuff to the point of going above and beyond, taking quick and decisive action. All my RideTech components work flawlessly and I will not hesitate to purchase from them.

G.

bret

05-22-2012, 11:32 AM

Good suggestions Gandalf...I made good use of our laser pointer last week installing that new rack on the 33. Symetrical, accessible reference points were hard to find on that car.

So why is checking the tire/wheel opening clearance important? We have seen the finest of quarterpanel installations be an inch off one way or the other. The 48 Hour car was a good example...the wheel openings were 3/4" different from side to side. I think this happened because whoever installed the passenger quarterpanel a few years ago used the driver quarter as their guide. The problem was that the driver quarter had likely been replaced a few year before that. The stacking of tolerances [including GM's] led to a significant dimensional difference.
What did we do? Split the difference. a 3/8" difference in front to rear wheel clearance is a whole lot harder to see than 3/4" If you're building a Ridler contender [or think you are:)] sometimes the only solution is to reposition the wheel opening. How do you do that? Different [much larger] thread...

When we do an installation we use a more reliable [ie, harder to molest] reference point on the framerail[s] to check square on the rearend housing. THEN we take a look at the wheel opening to see if there are any fatal clearance problems.

Gandalf

05-22-2012, 04:17 PM

Absolutely you are correct Bret. This is for cosmetic reference only - I was NOT intending that this be something to base the final solution on. As you say - there are any number of reasons these things will not be perfect. I do however think it is worth being aware of and making sure that whatever solution gets put into place, you had better be ok with the front/rear wheel placement in the opening. If not, like you said, different thread.

I mention it for the guy who might decide to lengthen the upper links only (like I was first told to do). This, by itself might introduce some unwanted consequences in addition to the link/housing clearance and lower shock mount. I'm keeping in mind this issue might not be identical for everyone and also that everyone has different levels of experience in working with this stuff. I blindly followed directions to fix this and ended up there. Maybe I'm not as smart as the average Joe but I would hate to see someone else go there. I hope that is clearer.

G.

JRouche

05-23-2012, 10:17 PM

I have been reading this thread for what? Three years now and its unimaginable!! Its the SAME issue! Thats pretty piss poor. Frank said there shouldn't be "the blame game". But at this point I disagree. If it was new then YES, chit happens and we move on.

This is not the case. There is a flaw in the production line and it needs to be fixed. Its VERY apparent its a flaw that continues to take place. So with that if everyone in the chain that is supplying the part just says we will fix YOUR issue the MAIN issue never gets fixed. And that would be quality control for whoever is welding these housings up.

Ridetech IMO is outta the picture. Unfortunately they have their name on the system and so they prolly feel obligated to help out. Well, they shouldn't! They supply the bars and components. Its up the the company that is doing the welding to adhere to proper manufacturing procedures to produce a product that will continue with the strict production processes that airtech (solly, Ridetech, Air Ride the name changes too much for my long term use of their stuff :) uses. The bars supplied are the correct dimensions.

If there is (no blame game) then the fix will never be found and Ill be reading this thread in another 3 years. Thats just silly. The blame game IS used with ALL major companies internally. Say Boeing has some QC issues and all they do is send the bad parts back when someone down the production line sees it it will NEVER get permanently fixed. They dont like that, it costs money!! So division A says look boss, we got another bad part from division B, this is our fourth part like that. Guaranteed the boss from division A will be blaming the crew (and boss) in division B to HIS boss. So BIG boss will go to division B boss and give him some heat. He will say "Chuck", you need to get a handle on your division. And Division B boss sees this as a threat to his job (or compensation package) and comes down hard on his crew to make sure it doesn't happen again or there will be some (changes).

Now my analogy is a lil extreme. We are talking about welders here. But its not their fault, its their boss's fault for NOT doing HIS job and making sure bad parts don't leave the factory floor.

And that's what it appears to me to be going on. Its NOT a big technical issue. Its a lackadaisical issue with the person that is responsible for running the welding shop. Thats the person that has caused three years of drama re: these rear end housings. He's just NOT doing his job and needs to get busy or get going (out the door).. YES. The blame game DOES have a purpose. Not here, not for us consumers but for the folks behind the curtain. Yes, Wizard of Oz ref :)) JR

Gandalf

07-25-2012, 02:09 PM

I just saw this recent update above and decided to throw another 2c in the ring, especially since no further updates have been made since.

I could not agree more with the above. It's certainly a lack of someone following up somewhere and taking action and it is definitely "piss poor" to hear it still going on. I got some resolve but not until after a lot of my own additional money and time was wasted. After several months Frank sent out a new housing which then had a different offset so the axels would not fit (despite the fact I had supplied a copy of the original order/receipt to insure this did not occur). Eventually I received new axels from Moser for the new housing but this time there were no access holes for the Wilwood brakes!! What a joke! I have not received any reply to my multiple attempts to communicate and at this point I'm over it. It's just not worth the time and energy to continue pissing around with people who quite frankly just don't give a damn. I have no sympathy for "we are just so busy"..... we all are - get over it. The part that gets to me is these vendors obviously think it's just one part so what's the big deal. They have no consideration for how their one mistake, big or small, affects the guy at the end of the food chain who paid his hard earned money for their parts. I too feel bad for RideTech having their name on an innocent part that is NOT part of the problem here.

Anyway - I can only hope someone at Moser is listening and that someone does get their sh$t together and fix the problem once and for all.

</rant>

G.