aeorodynamics for 200 mph+

[wicked68]

any thought on this - I am intrigued by the texas mile thread on here and with a simple pulley change I will have the hp to overcome wind resistance in theory to run 200+ (I will have 1100-1150 to the rear wheels).

Does anyone have any in depth experience on running 200 + with an old muscle car body - mine is a 68 mustang fastback.

I am redoing the front end this winter to have a very aerodynamic and fully adjustble spoiler on the front lower - nascar style which will help.

can whip a real wing on pretty easy on the back with just some small mount holes on the trunk lid.

I saw a thread on the guy in the 68 camaro that went over 200 and his car did not look as aerodynamic as mine is now.

Any thoughts??

[BA.]

hmmm. I wonder if anyone ever tried a 68 at the Salt Flats?

do you have a plan for preventing/excavating air from the grill/underhood area?

yeah, I know, I have no good feedback. :)

[wicked68]

hmmm. I wonder if anyone ever tried a 68 at teh Salt Flats?

do you have a plan for preventing/excavating air from the grill/underhood area?

yeah, I know, I have no good feedback. :)

I have no plan at all right now.

I do have 2 nice big vents on the top of the hood though that are meant for cold air intake since they sit on top of my main air filter.

I would not think that would work.

what do others do for this issue?

[wicked68]

does anyone redcall where that video is of the 20 year old kid that was driving the 67 or 68 mustang with a blower on it out in the nevada desert and ran over 200 mph?

[JV69z/28]

It's likely to go that fast while you can have fairly stock looking sheet metal you would need a purpose built race car that could be capable of being made street legal. The 1st car that comes to mind is The '69 Camaro "Big Red". It also seems that the early C3 Corvette road racers with L88 or ZL1 power (560-580 H/P) reached 200 MPH at LeMans. Here's a link to the Corvette forum that at times got ugly about whether or not a C3 could reach 200. http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-tech-performance/2208581-how-fast-will-a-c3-go.html Also keep in mind that even if you can reach that speed tires become an issue as seen by Motor Trend when they tested a ZR1 against a 599 Ferrari. Also when Dream Car Garage tested a modified Z06 on the autoban the passanger was flipping at 185MPH and that car has a much better aero package than any muscle car. One last note the NASCAR Super Birds were more than 200MPH capable on the super speedways. So I believe it is possible to modify a muscle car to go that fast there are several safety issues to consider.

[wicked68]

we would definately run a different set of tires rated for that speed.


It's likely to go that fast while you can have fairly stock looking sheet metal you would need a purpose built race car that could be capable of being made street legal. The 1st car that comes to mind is The '69 Camaro "Big Red". It also seems that the early C3 Corvette road racers with L88 or ZL1 power (560-580 H/P) reached 200 MPH at LeMans. Here's a link to the Corvette forum that at times got ugly about whether or not a C3 could reach 200. http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-tech-performance/2208581-how-fast-will-a-c3-go.html Also keep in mind that even if you can reach that speed tires become an issue as seen by Motor Trend when they tested a ZR1 against a 599 Ferrari. Also when Dream Car Garage tested a modified Z06 on the autoban the passanger was flipping at 185MPH and that car has a much better aero package than any muscle car. One last note the NASCAR Super Birds were more than 200MPH capable on the super speedways. So I believe it is possible to modify a muscle car to go that fast there are several safety issues to consider.

[wicked68]

6500 RPM 239.47 MPH6000 RPM 221.05 MPH5500 RPM 202.63 MPH5000 RPM 184.21 MPH4500 RPM 165.79 MPH4000 RPM 147.37 MPH3500 RPM 128.95 MPH
this is my 5th gear with 25.6 inch tires tko600 transmission

so it appears that my current gearing would be a stretch at the top end to just get to 200 at full out between 5500 and 6000

[slowcamaro]

I think a lot of it has to to with keeping the air from getting underneath the car. Side skirts and a front air dam of some sort.

With all the open grill area on the front of your car I'm not sure how the air is going to want to evacuate the engine bay.

[wicked68]

big red 1989 silver state classic was what I was looking for. it was a 1969 z28 nothing real special on the front end or other aerodynamics - shockingly.

http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/113_0504_1969_chevrolet_camaro/index.html

http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/113_0504_1969_chevrolet_camaro/photo_01.html

my car has a similar flow on the front of it - mabye less since I have a radiator in there with a full shroud and a very large intercooler in front of that. its not wide open to the engine bay as you would think.

I have had it at 135 and let go of the steering wheel and its rock solid. I know thats not 200 but at 135 its just humming along. I know guys that have had them cruising at 160 with similary results.

we also lowered the front end for more stability as well which you can see in the pics.

[NOT A TA]

There's quite a bit of tech inspection stuff to run 200 MPH. I'm currently upgrading my Firebird to meet or exceed the requirements. https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48151http://www.bborr.com/ Here's some other links you might find interesting.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/body/113_0703_car_aerodynamics/index.html

Notice he says his Camaro is as aerodynamic as a brick! http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2643666566094931403

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bvillelinks.htm#Aerodynamics

http://www.saltflats.com/Tech%20articles.html

[Takid455]

In the recent Hot Rod mag, there is a write up on Mickey Thomson and the 67 fastback he drove at Bonneville. Danny 'On the Gas" Ongais also drove the car. The article stated he ran an 'unofficial' speed of 257 or so. I didn't see too many aerodynamic improvements over stock other than a different front spoiler. May help you get some ideas.

[zerotofear]

Air management is a balancing act at best, there's spots on a car you want air to follow the profile, while other areas you want air to release, sharp edges release air. Balance from front to rear effects handling even in a straight line. Air dams control air from getting under the car and with balanced air intakes can help create downforce without the penalty of drag. Low pressure areas can be fed from high pressure areas like at the base of the windshield, grill openings can be closed up so that the amount air needed to cool water and oil is all that's used. The overall height of the nose, top, deck, are all relative, the windshield angle, a-pillars control where the air re-attaches itself to the car and the size of the hole it pokes through the air. Underbody treatments like transmission tunnels, wheel tubs, exhaust systems can direct air creating downforce. Flat sides that taper from being tucked behind the front wheel to even with the rear wheels adds stability and gives the driver added confidence at higher speeds. After spending over a 200 hrs in the wind tunnel starting in the mid-eighties with the Nascar type stockcars you have a mindset to use every advantage you can , if we broke the 200 mark Nascar would put restrictors on us. In 1985 it took 650 hp to break the 200 and change mark, by 1995 we could do it with 400hp. We chose the 86' aerocoupe for the SmokinSS build based on the fact that I personally had over 100 hrs in the windtunnel with that generation of GM product and always wanted to take all the notes we had to build a car that didn't have Nascar's thumb attached. The student technicians on the SmokinSS build team incorporated a bunch of tricks that we found in the day that Nascar made illegal. Check them out at www.smokinss.info (http://www.smokinss.info)

[wicked68]

In the recent Hot Rod mag, there is a write up on Mickey Thomson and the 67 fastback he drove at Bonneville. Danny 'On the Gas" Ongais also drove the car. The article stated he ran an 'unofficial' speed of 257 or so. I didn't see too many aerodynamic improvements over stock other than a different front spoiler. May help you get some ideas.

wow - check it out - its actually a 1969 - this thing has nothing done to it on the outside.

http://forums.stangnet.com/761795-mickey-thompsons-69-mach-1-211mph-fairlane.html

Thats amazing that they could run that fast with no front spoiler.

[Mike Holleman]

I saw this Tempest go 215 at Maxton. A brick is more aerodynamic. But he had a mountain BBC with twin turbos.

[wicked68]

I saw this Tempest go 215 at Maxton. A brick is more aerodynamic. But he had a mountain BBC with twin turbos.
how the heck is he colling the engine????

[TonyL]

just google 200mph mustang. you'll find a late model mustang that pulled off a 256 mph run on e85.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/12/246mphmustang-1.jpg

Your musang isnt that different aerodynamically, really. Some mods to the front and rear and you should be stable. I'd do some rooftop vanes (see land speed cars, like this one, you can make them out if you look close) and a belly pan. Getting the wobblys at 200 mph is a good way to find out what the world looks like upside down and spinning.

I think big red vented some of the underhood pressure from the cowl induction vent. You'll be doing the opposite with your hood, creating a high pressure system under the hood, and blowing down on the ground under the engine, causing lift. Find a way to exhaust that pressure and you're gold.

Lastly, I'd consider a "splitter" under the front spoiler area, to funnel air around the front rather than under the car. This car has a tiny one. I'd go "car of tomorrow" big on an older car like yours.

[wicked68]

Your musang isnt that different aerodynamically, really.

Some mods to the front and rear and you should be stable. I'd do some rooftop vanes (see land speed cars, like this one, you can make them out if you look close) and a belly pan.

the roof vanes might be hard since I dont want to do anything that will look silly driving around town that would be a permanent attachment. I CAn put some winglets on the ront and rear spoilers though that can detatch easly.

beely pan would be easy since it can be attached and removed quite easily.

hood vents can be closed temp for the run


I think big red vented some of the underhood pressure from the cowl induction vent. You'll be doing the opposite with your hood, creating a high pressure system under the hood, and blowing down on the ground under the engine, causing lift. Find a way to exhaust that pressure and you're gold.


I could definately modify the current intakes that were there for the ac intake that are not in use to allow air to come out just in front of the windshield

that would be easy enough.

Lastly, I'd consider a "splitter" under the front spoiler area, to funnel air around the front rather than under the car. This car has a tiny one. I'd go "car of tomorrow" big on an older car like yours.


already in the works for an unrelated front end re design this winter that ben hermance is helping me on to get rid of the eleanor front end



my resonse in red inline

[TonyL]

sounds good. The vanes going over the top of the car can be attached with mild 3m double stick tape and pulled later, just like a body molding on any other car, just an idea. They dont have to all that secure since they don't have massive pressure built up on them.

[wicked68]

sounds good. The vanes going over the top of the car can be attached with mild 3m double stick tape and pulled later, just like a body molding on any other car, just an idea. They dont have to all that secure since they don't have massive pressure built up on them.

and that will actually hold enough to do anything?

[TonyL]

it should. that 3m stuff is pretty strong. the vanes dont have a load on them, they just direct air flow over the top of the car to keep it steady. They are usually only an inch or so high,running front to back so not a load of stress there. More like a management device than a stress/load part like a spoiler.

[Restomod]

how the heck is he colling the engine????

Alcohol runs so cold it will keep it simi cool and if he is running water in the heads they are ok and the block is prob hardblocked.

[Restomod]

wow - check it out - its actually a 1969 - this thing has nothing done to it on the outside.

http://forums.stangnet.com/761795-mickey-thompsons-69-mach-1-211mph-fairlane.html

Thats amazing that they could run that fast with no front spoiler.

There are a couple minor things done to it,headlights are covered and the hood is raised in the back. Not having a front spoiler is weird...

[Damn True]

hmmm. I wonder if anyone ever tried a 68 at the Salt Flats?

do you have a plan for preventing/excavating air from the grill/underhood area?

yeah, I know, I have no good feedback. :)

Yes. Levan Prothero went over 200mph in a '68 at Bonneville. Of course he was running a fire-breathing big block and about 1500lbs of ballast.

[chicane67]

any thought on this - I am intrigued by the texas mile thread on here and with a simple pulley change I will have the hp to overcome wind resistance in theory to run 200+ (I will have 1100-1150 to the rear wheels).

Does anyone have any in depth experience on running 200 + with an old muscle car body - mine is a 68 mustang fastback.

I am redoing the front end this winter to have a very aerodynamic and fully adjustble spoiler on the front lower - nascar style which will help.

can whip a real wing on pretty easy on the back with just some small mount holes on the trunk lid.

I saw a thread on the guy in the 68 camaro that went over 200 and his car did not look as aerodynamic as mine is now.

Any thoughts??


Thoughts...

What's the real question here ?? Is this just a 'for fun' idea or are you going to be running the chassis in a peticular class ?? If it's for fun... the options are endless. If it's in a peticular class... there is only so much you can do, within the peticular class in regards to aero modifications.

Next...

The event. Short events like Maxton, Texas and El Mirage are all about power... just to get to 200 mph. Bonneville is a whole'nother animal in itself. In the short events, you are not spending too much time at 200+... unless it's purpose built... so, getting the power down is more forefront. At longer events aero has much more impact. There are 40+ year old muscle car chassis running 200+ with no more than 600ish flywheel hp.

Reality...

The chassis rake and post vessal aero is where you will want to concentrait. Also of grater importance... is the gearing and driveline. No overdrives of more than .75... anything more and the efficiency plummets. Now... depending on if you are looking at running in a peticular class... this will determine what else you can or cannot tweak. The chassis rake will do more to negate lift than a splitter or air dam... as it changes the center of pressure more than that of a front spoiler. I also wouldnt be looking into a wing... I'd be more looking at the right rear spoiler and it's angle. Wings are a can of worms... unless you are really into aerodynamics... I'd want to keep it simple.

I am building my 67 for the BCGC record... which is 197 at ElMo and 226 at Bonneville. Mind you, that this is a licenced street car... "classic gas coupe" is extreamly limited in aero modifications. 200+ is easily within reach... even with a 650 flywheel hp, NA power plant.

[wicked68]

well on the wing - yeah I agree that woudl be a pain because it would need to be tunnel tested which is $$$.

Class - nothing in mind - quite frankly I would be happy to have it run 201 for 5 seconds with no modifications so I could put it in the scrap book. I think that would be more exciting than 220 with massive modifications that are unrealistic for the street on an ongoing driving basis.

I run a tko 600 which I think has a .64 overdrive 5th gear and a 3.23 rear end.

I have about 850 fwhp currently - 700 dyno verified to the ground and with race gas and some more timing it will drop 815 to the ground. it sounds like I have enough hp to bump it over 200 for a short while.

just need the correct tires for it - something a little taller would certainly change the rear ratio. mine are 25.6 currently.

Thoughts? what would you do if you were me?


Thoughts...

What's the real question here ?? Is this just a 'for fun' idea or are you going to be running the chassis in a peticular class ?? If it's for fun... the options are endless. If it's in a peticular class... there is only so much you can do, within the peticular class in regards to aero modifications.

Next...

The event. Short events like Maxton, Texas and El Mirage are all about power... just to get to 200 mph. Bonneville is a whole'nother animal in itself. In the short events, you are not spending too much time at 200+... unless it's purpose built... so, getting the power down is more forefront. At longer events aero has much more impact. There are 40+ year old muscle car chassis running 200+ with no more than 600ish flywheel hp.

Reality...

The chassis rake and post vessal aero is where you will want to concentrait. Also of grater importance... is the gearing and driveline. No overdrives of more than .75... anything more and the efficiency plummets. Now... depending on if you are looking at running in a peticular class... this will determine what else you can or cannot tweak. The chassis rake will do more to negate lift than a splitter or air dam... as it changes the center of pressure more than that of a front spoiler. I also wouldnt be looking into a wing... I'd be more looking at the right rear spoiler and it's angle. Wings are a can of worms... unless you are really into aerodynamics... I'd want to keep it simple.

I am building my 67 for the BCGC record... which is 197 at ElMo and 226 at Bonneville. Mind you, that this is a licenced street car... "classic gas coupe" is extreamly limited in aero modifications. 200+ is easily within reach... even with a 650 flywheel hp, NA power plant.

[454bug]

just google 200mph mustang. you'll find a late model mustang that pulled off a 256 mph run on e85.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/12/246mphmustang-1.jpg



One of my college buddies was there when they made these runs. His name is J. Bittle of JBA Racing out of San Diego. He built the headers for this car. I would have to check with him but I think his shop might have built the engine for this car also... He hung out with Brian Thompson with his dad's (Mickey's) car as well during this trip.

He is a Mustang fanatic! He would be a wealth of knowledge on this subject. His daily driver is a 1967 Shelby GT500 with a tunnel-port 427... (Actually it has a Shelby aluminum block with 482 cubic inches now with the tunnel-port heads on it.)

I have been in that car at 160-170 a number of times...(Even though I realize there is a LOT of difference between driving a car at 170mph vs 200mph...)

If you would like I could give him a call and get you in touch with him...

In addition, J. had a 1967 Mustang that he ran in the GT1 class of SCCA around 1981. The car had a normally-aspirated 351 cleveland in it and it ran 175 mph with nothing more than a vertically-flat spoiler (very similar to the one on the new Mustang pictured above) on it around Texas World Speedway when they still ran the big oval as part of the road course...