"Pro-Touring" what it means to me.

[yody]

"Pro-Touring" I will try to define what pro-touring means to me. I am not the best with words, and sometimes have a hard time writing down in words what i am trying to say, but I will try. Their is no true definition of the style of building cars that we call Pro-Touring but I will try to explain what it means to me without sounding to cheesy, and hopefully others will follow.
Pro-Touring is all about the enjoyment, sastifaction, and accomplishment that you feel when you drive an old classic car that you have or had mofified to accelerate, stop, turn, function, and fit like any of the best new age cars. This includes upgrading the motor, transmission, brakes, suspension, interior, wheels, and anything else that your imagination could think of in your car.
There are many different styles of Pro-Touring and everyone does somewhat of their own thing. However it all revolves around the same ideas; making your car the best it can be, and actually driving it; while retaining a comfortable ride, reliablity, and lots of grip around any bend or turn, with a ton of power for the exit! To me a car that spends its life on the lawn of a car show or sitting in a garage is in car hell. All of my cars beg to be driven hard, the engine wants to scream, the brakes want to boil, and the tires want to smoke. Keeping them locked up would be unthinkable.
Some of the modifications that you would find on one of my pro-touring vehicles would be;

1. Upgraded light weight wheels with sticky tires ranging anywhere from 16" to 20" and as narrow as 8" and as wide as 13"

2. Lots of horsepower, whether it be small block, big block, V6, supercharged, turbo, nitrous, diesel, anything as long as it is pumping out the power

3. Upgraded brakes; the car needs to stop as well, if not better than it can accelerate. Brakes that can take the repeated abuse of stopping from 80-100 mph and do it well without major fade is mandatory

4. The Suspension, whether it be a rebuilt suspension with aftermarket bolt on parts with improved geometry and a well thought out combo- to a one off custom CAD built, Analyzed, CNC made, Over engineered custom suspension, that will out grip the best corvette ever built. It has to up to par, It doesnt' have to be high end or really expensive, a well rounded, well engineered suspesnion can be had that will still provide a decent ride and vastly improve the inferior stock supension.

5. Reliablity, the car must be well engineered, everything has to be well thought out and routed, assembled, plugged in, bolted, welded, or screwed in correctly and will not fail with extreme use if needed. If I have to Over do the cooling system, fuel system or electrical, I will spare no expense in the name of reliablity. I will take my car on long hauls and can not risk a break down, due to poor planning or laziness

6. Safety, not meant to be on the bottom of the list at all, but the car must be safe with all of the additions made to it. The 30 year old safety techonolgy that came with my car is not sufficient anymore, with the added horsepower, handling, and braking comes a lot of resonsibilty for myself and others traveling in the vehicle. Safety must always be a primary concern

7. Comfort, I must be able to stay in comfort while traveling in my vehicle. I put all the amenities in my car possilbe, including, AC, heat, power everything, accurate engine monitoring i.e. guages, supportive seats, a good sounding stereo system, and of course a decent ride that isnt' too stiff or hard.

8. Last but not least,Quality/Detail; a car that looks as good as it runs. Nothing is better than working on your car and admiring your craftmanship. Or having others compliment you on your abilities to create something beautiful!

For me, these are the recipes that make a well rounded pro-touring car. There are many versions and styles of Pro-touring like mentioned earlier, but you will notice that they all have similar ideas, and it becomes obvious that the car falls into the pro-touring status. If you are not sure if your car falls into this category, or don't really relate, your probably still have a wonderful car that everyone will still like. Build your car to make yourself happy, not to fit in. :santa3:

[yody]

BTW, its really late right now, and if I wake up in the morning and realize this is a bunch of cheesy bull i am going to erase it!!

[Poopy]

Sounds good to me... :drive1:

[edit] I meant your first post [edit]

[TonyL]

that's great yody. One of the most well written descriptions of what pro-touring is about yet.

[68protouring454]

are you high??lol
nice right up, i never knew you were so thoughtfull
jake

[Steve Chryssos]

Any hot rod with a well BALANCED combination of performance and style.

[parsonsj]

Yody,

Nicely done.

One thing I'd add is that the journey is important. By that I mean it is important that the cars be modified to fit this role. I'm building my own ride, and many guys here are doing the same. Nothing wrong with professionally built cars, but I'd say their owners only make a tiny slice of this community.

Some of the pride we take in these cars comes from doing much of the work on them, and as such, they become an extension of us. That's good, but is often why we argue vague points about show vs go.

jp

[MuscleRodz]

Very nice Yody, I would have to pretty much agree.

Mike

[MrQuick]

I think there are some other details that could be added since you could categorize some Hotrods with that description. Other than that, nice cut and paste butt head! :spank2: .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............................just kidding

[Steve1968LS2]

Any hot rod with a well BALANCED combination of performance and style.

Yep.. updating the preformance, handling, comfort and yes.. Asthetics of a car that was lacking these from the factory.

An old school friend of mine always teases me and says "what is pro-touring?? sounds like someone that gets paid money to drive around.."

I think we have room here for all the various "shades of grey" known as the pro-touring segment.. hell, I love the variety..

Oh, and well written Yody.. :)

[WELTERRACER]

Well written..


My car has 17' wheels, Supercharged 650hp engine , 4 wheel disc brakes, T56 six speed and tubular rear suspension componates and a spoiler.... AND YET MOST SAY MY CAR ISNT PROTOURING because it is an 1984 Camaro and isnt old enough and it doesnt have A/C... (car wasnt equiped with it)

[Steve1968LS2]

Well written..


My car has 17' wheels, Supercharged 650hp engine , 4 wheel disc brakes, T56 six speed and a spoiler.... AND YET MOST SAY MY CAR ISNT PROTOURING because it is an 1984 Camaro and isnt old enough

I guess they didn't read Tony H's book huh? Even a newer car can be PT if enough upgrades are done...

I think the key is to care less about what "others" have to say and to concentrate on doing what makes you happy :)

[yody]

well i kind of meant for other people to maybe share their ideas too.

[parsonsj]

i kind of meant for other people to maybe share their ideas too

Don't give up yet. Maybe others will.

Of course when you write 500 words describing something ... it can be hard to add to that. :)

jp

[yody]

yeah you should see the crap i am capable of writing. You should see my letter of intents when i am trying to get a job, i am "master of bull$%#$" you would never know i wrote it.

[toddshotrods]

I usually try to wait a while and read until I can't contain myself anymore, but I'll try to jump in now...


Any hot rod with a well BALANCED combination of performance and style.
I like Steve's definition, and agree that it really all comes down to the word BALANCE - however - you would have to hold a gun to my head to get me to shut my mouth (stop my fingers?) that fast :seizure:

To me, a Pro-Touring vehicle is one which is designed and built to do all things well. It has a carefully selected combination of parts, implemented in such as way as to allow the car to handle well, go fast, stop quick, plus be comfortable and pleasing to drive.

A successfully finished Pro-Touring vehicle is one that makes you dread turning that last corner onto your street. At that point it ignites a desperate mental search for a shred of reason or rationality to spend just one more hour in its embrace. If I approach that corner either physically exhausted or emotionally lethargic, and looking forward to my living room sofa, I have not been in my idea of a Pro-Touring car.

On the other hand... If my physical exhaustion is tempered with an increased heart rate, and gobs of rushing adrenaline, I may have been in what I would call a G-Machine or Street-Fighter, which sacrifice some of the comfort and convenience to provide an emotional thrill ride. A final test for this condition would be whether my little emotion man inside is stabbing fists at the sky, while shouting "YEAH!!!" :bananna2:


One thing I'd add is that the journey is important... I'm building my own ride, and many guys here are doing the same... Some of the pride we take in these cars comes from doing much of the work on them, and as such, they become an extension of us...
I'm defnitely with ya there John. Actually, with me it's the design process. I am having soooo much fun just planning my project. I'm all set to start cutting and welding this summer, but I have thoroughly enjoyed this phase of it. I actually started dreaming this car up in 1996! Along the way, I waited for technologies to evolve, learned new skills, and made new connections, all in search of my idea of the ultimate hot rod! When I finally see the car together (even mocked up) and drive it it will just be a big part of a ten-year plus journey.

Hmmm, this is kinda long - imagine if I had waited until I couldn't hold it anymore :scared:

[Zefhix]

Ultimately, to me, the pursuit of specifically defining "pro-touring" is detremental to the creative branches of this hobby that exists. I think, like everyone else, I decided to build a car a certain way and this pro-touring website was the closest to what I'm doing. That's it. Eventually the "what is pro-touring?" threads are going to drive away some potentially awesome talent and discourage others from pursuing theirs. Steve said it best...it's just a "balanced combination" of works for you.
Build your car and be happy. :cheers:

[Nine Ball]

BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE!

In Stevo's words, this means that the better your car looks, the faster it has to be. I'm fine with that. :rolleyes5 haha

Nice write-up Yody. I agree with all statements. Everyone should build the car how they want to and not worry so much (or get too offended) if someone disagrees with their ideas. Its YOUR car, do what you want. But, please don't be afraid to share your progress or ideas. For every negative critic, there is also someone that appreciates your work.

[DarkBuddha]

I wasn't gonna get into these discussions, but I’ll offer some thoughts…

First, here are my base Pro-touring criteria:

#1. American production car based. This excludes foreign, limited production, or kit bodies and cars.

#2. It has been modified to be a better-than-stock all-round performer.

#3. Modifications should be about more power, better handling, better braking, better rolling stock, better chassis performance, often using hot rod, road race, and drag car inspiration, ideas, and parts. (notice I’m talking about performance, not design specifics… does a car need 13” brakes if 11” will haul it down capably?).

#4. The car should have stance, even if it’s not significantly lowered.

#5. The appearance should be respectful of the cars original lines and shouldn’t be gaudy. Race inspired or evocative of vintage performance models (SS, GS, GTO, Yenko, Mach, Boss, Shelby, GT, R/T, etc.) are ok. Avoid excess of chrome or graphics.

#6. Should be comfortable, reliable, and capable enough to handle real world driving situations, including city driving, long roadtrips, speed bumps, pot holes, dirt and gravel. I’m not saying you have to drive it (though I think you should), but it should be capable. It doesn’t have to have a/c if you live some place you don’t need it more than a couple months a year.


Also, there seems to be a lot of elitism running around. All this effort spent coming up with defining criteria seems more focused on exclusion than inclusion. I agree that there are some base criteria that seem fundamental to building a categorical Pro-touring machine, but like all things in the real world, I also know that there are always exceptions and ways of bending the rules. This means there is room for flexibility in the criteria and in the way we build our cars.

What I really hope is that folks don’t build their cars based on some formulaic criteria that seems to fit their car in some currently trendy and vogue style, but that is exactly what I see happening more and more. I think that putting specific requirements for modifications (i.e. big ass rotors, huge wheels, minimum 600hp, etc.) is just plain stupid. All of this adds up to less variety and ingenuity than big wallets coining out dime-a-dozen image machines. I think most folks will agree that '69 Camaros have already started pushing into this territory. Hell, even PHR is getting tired of '69 Camaros. Ain't this how pro-street ended up in the early '90s? Which is why pro-touring seemed refreshing... real cars, real speed parts, real driving. I'm for all that stuff! :usa:

Finally, based on far too many description, I think you might add an extra rule, which should read:

#X. It should cost a crap load to build yet another fill in the blank, or at least take a really long time to build it to offset the costs.

If this rule is true, I say pro-touring sucks.

[parsonsj]

DarkBuddha,

You mention being afraid elitism or exclusionary forces are at work. Where do you get that impression? I'm curious, and I haven't seen that in any threads (maybe I missed 'em). I don't mean to pick on you, but you aren't the only one to mention it. The definitions I see above are fine, and none of them specify difficult or exclusionary criteria.

Anybody care to comment? Do others feel the PT movement is getting exclusionary or elistist?

jp

[FSTFBDY]

Well written..


My car has 17' wheels, Supercharged 650hp engine , 4 wheel disc brakes, T56 six speed and tubular rear suspension componates and a spoiler.... AND YET MOST SAY MY CAR ISNT PROTOURING because it is an 1984 Camaro and isnt old enough and it doesnt have A/C... (car wasnt equiped with it)


any pictires of this animal?

Im building a 3rdGen DroptopZ, 17's 420sbc w/ single large turbo, mini tubbed for some 315's tucked. All tubular front suspention, rear, complete '97 Int. etc... Love seein more 3rdGen stuff gettin in on this site.

[DarkBuddha]

DarkBuddha,

You mention being afraid elitism or exclusionary forces are at work. Where do you get that impression? I'm curious, and I haven't seen that in any threads (maybe I missed 'em). I don't mean to pick on you, but you aren't the only one to mention it. The definitions I see above are fine, and none of them specify difficult or exclusionary criteria.
I think I'm probably overreacting and being paranoid a bit, but I also think it's in the subtext a little bit. When we draw out these criteria we do it to be able to distinguish between one type of car and another. The moment the show car thread got started, there were folks getting all defensive of show cars (not that the thread was intended to offend show car folks). Why? Perhaps because we all recognize that there are these imaginary lines people draw in the pro-touring sand that some use to judge one car as acceptable and another car as passe'. Folks that drive their cars give crap to folks that only show their cars. It just happens.

Similar things happen when folks start looking at how cars are built in general. There are folks that think "you can't just put big wheels on a car and call it pro-touring" or "it's still got rear drums, it ain't pro-touring". When folks start making blanket statements about how a particular car should be outfitted, it becomes a bit of the 'gotta where the right thing to be part of the in crowd' effect.

Again, I think it's all in the subtext of these statements, and I think I'm as guilty as most. I think these cars should get driven, and yes, I've got issues with show only cars. But this stuff about ya gotta have big rotors and they should be cross drilled and slotted and by Baer, and ya gotta have light weight huge wheels, and ya gotta make big hp... My question becomes where does it end? 14" rotors? $1500/per carbon fiber wheels? 1000hp? Sounds great. But damn... if I don't have the stuff do I get excluded? I don't really mind, 'cause I didn't build my car for the label. Still, seems a shame if other folks might feel dejected for the same reason.

I hope that was clear enough. I like to finally say that I love this site and the discussions, including this one. I made a smartass remark in the show thread to bring some levity, but I read every bit of it.

[yody]

The meaning of this post was not for another discussion, just a list of what pro-touring is about individually. Please leave it at that. The reason that people are getting defensive these days is that pro-touring.com has been around for awhile now. The original guys remember when it wasn't so popular, and it was more of an exclusive club, and people knew exaclty what kind of cars were involved. NOw pro-touring has become more mainstream and tons of people are pouring into this site. People with all types of cars are joining into this forum. A lot of people are building street rods etc.. and are calling them protouring and kind "jumping on the bandwagon" which is fine but some people are feeling like the style is getting blended in with new age pro-street and so forth. There are still a lot of hardcore racer types here who don't want pro-touring to go downhill and want to stay true to the roots. So instead of accepting the evolution of this style, they are getting upset about it and maybe being harsh to innocent people. There are a lot of low budget pro-touring cars here, probably more low budget than high budget. Its not about the "parts" that you purchase for your car, it is the attitude and overall style that determine what it is. Lets leave this post what it was made for not another off topic discussion

[Steve Chryssos]

The meaning of this post was not for another discussion, just a list of what pro-touring is about individually. Please leave it at that.

I don't think it's possible to share in this thread without discussion. Most suggest that they don't want or prefer exclusivity, but have offered-up or aggreed with specs that have been presented. As soon as you suggest that a certain diameter wheel is excluded or a car must have X number of pistons per caliper, then the exclusion begins.


That's why I responded by breaking the definition down to it's lowest common denominator rather than mentioning specs.

[JV69z/28]

Pro-touring to me is a build style. What that build style means to me is what was said by Steve - Balance. A car/truck that does all things well. It's been upgraded to preform better all around. The look is lower than stock and "fat on all fours". Use Pro-street as a comparison. I think the 1st pro-street cars were built to do one thing - go fast in a straight line. They were built like a drag car. Roll cages - skinny front tires and tall wide rear tires. Look where pro-street is now. Most of us on this board are not pro-street advocates so we tend to lable anything that has "bigs and littles" pro-street. Now that's what's happening to pro-touring. Anything that sits lower than stock and has "big wheels and fat tires" is being labled pro-touring. Some of us get offended because it's really not full blown pro-touring. Isn't copying the greatest form of flattery? Be happy that so many cars/trucks are being built to copy this style. It makes it better for all of us. More venders sell more parts - the market for pro-touring parts grows. Does it really matter if a car only "looks" like a pro-touring car? If everybody who has never seen track time had to leave this site there would be very few of you left and how are the rest of us suppose to learn? The definition of pro-touring doesn't have to be exact - it can be a little soft on the edges and we can all share our passion and ideas. I think in the long run even though are opinions are different we and our rides can all benefit together. There - I'm done - I'll get off the soap box now - Thank you - Jack

[DarkBuddha]

The meaning of this post was not for another discussion, just a list of what pro-touring is about individually. Please leave it at that. ........ Lets leave this post what it was made for not another off topic discussion
I like that idea... there's room for all of us here I think, and I certainly didn't mean to drag things off topic. Sure, we may disagree with each other and the majority may disagree with the few, but I'd hate to see it become another CC type environment here. Celebrate real world garage built cars, admire the high dollar shop built cars, and tolerate the wannabes, right? :)

[Nine Ball]

John, good list, but I disagree with the "low 14s" statement. I thought we were supposed to surpass or equal late model performance vehicles. 14s haven't been considered quick since 1990. LOL! Too many cars (including family 4-doors like the Chryslers) run 12s or 13s off the showroom floor. 14s are only quick if you own a truck, but even Lightnings hit 13s pretty easily. ;)

Here is my "mandatory" list on what I think a pro-touring car should be:

-classic body style. Lets say 1985 or older. Why? Because cars built after that period handled a little better than older cars, and HP was beginning to improve after the fuel crunch dark ages of the mid 70s to mid 80s. "Performance" cars built in that period pretty much sucked in terms of performance. Later 80s started getting back to performance, with the Turbo Buicks, Camaros, Mustangs, Corvettes, etc....

-I don't consider trucks "Pro-Touring". El Caminos and such, sure. They are more like their car counterparts. I consider a truck built in a "pro-touring" style to be a "Sport Truck". Or even a "Sport Performance Truck". Not pro-touring. (MY opinion)

-The vehicle must accelerate, brake, handle, and be as drivable as a late model performance car. This is compared to newer Camaros, Supras, Corvettes, Mustangs. Does that require big fancy rotors? Nope. If your budget setup meets or exceeds the performance of the above mentioned late models, you are good to go.

-EFI engines. I'll probably get flamed for this one, but I think we are supposed to be improving/exceeding the modern performance cars. I've yet to see a 300 rwhp NA carb'd SBC setup with unported factory heads nail down 30 mpg on the highway, and keep a smooth idle. If modern cars can do it easily, then we should try to at least match them in terms of performance and efficiency. The engines make these cars "modern" to me.

-appearance is up to the owner. Everyone has their own tastes. No need for fancy paint or billet wheels. Just build a car that is fun to drive, and can hang with the late model performance cars in terms of braking, acclerating, handling, and drivability/efficiency. Low budget or high budget, no problem.

[gen3bu]

-I don't consider trucks "Pro-Touring". El Caminos and such, sure. They are more like their car counterparts. I consider a truck built in a "pro-touring" style to be a "Sport Truck". Or even a "Sport Performance Truck". Not pro-touring. (MY opinion)

-The vehicle must accelerate, brake, handle, and be as drivable as a late model performance car. This is compared to newer Camaros, Supras, Corvettes, Mustangs.

-appearance is up to the owner. Low budget or high budget, no problem.

i built a "pro-touring" truck for myself it is a 1993 sonoma, 2" bell-tech spindles, 1987 g-body front springs, 3" drop rear springs, 1987 gta gear box, zq8 front and rear sway bars, 1986 iroc wheels, and a well built 355 with nos.

is it a sport truck or pro-touring? i think it is more pro-touring because it will out handle a lot of modern performance cars in this part of the country, it will out run a stock c5, and out stop a 4th gen f-fody (mine still has disc/drum brakes), passes a state emissions test at 4.3 v-6 specs, and it gets @ 20-21 mpg with 4.10 gears (is still tbi with a stock ecm).

so you make the desiscion, i call it p-t/p-up. plain and simple it hauls ass in all respects for a daily driver. it does everything as good/better than my brothers lowered 3rd gen with baer brakes and a 383tpi.

as lomng as it does everything better than stock and/or the best moedern sports car you are in the p-t realm!

kevin

[Nine Ball]

Kevin, sounds like a cool truck. I still wouldn't classify a truck as pro-touring.

A bone stock Porsche turbo can whip most cars in all categories, but it isn't pro-touring either. I'd say you have a kick ass sport performance truck. Trucks that can haul ass and handle aren't anything innovative, guys have been building them for years around Houston. There are even diesel duallies here running high 10s!

[JohnUlaszek]

To me,
Pro-Touring or G-Machining (new word?) is a mission statement, the type of vehicle, you choose to accomplish this mission should'nt matter as long as it has four wheels.

If John Parsons had chosen a 2004 Monte Carlo to perform the same mods he is doing to his 67 Nova, what would it be? If not Pro-Touring, then what?

[Nine Ball]

So, does that make my convertible '02 SS a pro-touring car? It has upgraded suspension, tires, brakes and engine. Was my '98 Formula a pro-touring car?

In my opinion, you have to have limits somewhere as far as type of vehicles or years are concerned. Otherwise, ANY vehicle that has ever been modified in the history of automobiles could be considered pro-touring if it had better than stock brakes, suspension, and power.

Right?

[JohnUlaszek]

Been fun guys, but I am done here.

[yody]

yes, no more discussions, save that for the other threads, instead of bickering just explain what it is about for you, nothing to do with the word "NOT"

[Conekiller13]

To Me Pro-Touring is more a state of mind than any vehicle specifics. I wanted to drive My classic muscle car who's styling I love like I drive everything else. That necesatated large wheels for large brakes, improved geometry and suspension operation.

Pro-Touring is making YOUR car behave like YOU want it to. :drive1:

[Robuilt]

"Pro-Touring" I will try to define what pro-touring means to me. I am not the best with words, and sometimes have a hard time writing down in words what i am trying to say, but I will try. Their is no true definition of the style of building cars that we call Pro-Touring but I will try to explain what it means to me without sounding to cheesy, and hopefully others will follow.
Pro-Touring is all about the enjoyment, sastifaction, and accomplishment that you feel when you drive an old classic car that you have or had mofified to accelerate, stop, turn, function, and fit like any of the best new age cars. This includes upgrading the motor, transmission, brakes, suspension, interior, wheels, and anything else that your imagination could think of in your car.
There are many different styles of Pro-Touring and everyone does somewhat of their own thing. However it all revolves around the same ideas; making your car the best it can be, and actually driving it; while retaining a comfortable ride, reliablity, and lots of grip around any bend or turn, with a ton of power for the exit! To me a car that spends its life on the lawn of a car show or sitting in a garage is in car hell. All of my cars beg to be driven hard, the engine wants to scream, the brakes want to boil, and the tires want to smoke. Keeping them locked up would be unthinkable.
Some of the modifications that you would find on one of my pro-touring vehicles would be;

1. Upgraded light weight wheels with sticky tires ranging anywhere from 16" to 20" and as narrow as 8" and as wide as 13"

2. Lots of horsepower, whether it be small block, big block, V6, supercharged, turbo, nitrous, diesel, anything as long as it is pumping out the power

3. Upgraded brakes; the car needs to stop as well, if not better than it can accelerate. Brakes that can take the repeated abuse of stopping from 80-100 mph and do it well without major fade is mandatory

4. The Suspension, whether it be a rebuilt suspension with aftermarket bolt on parts with improved geometry and a well thought out combo- to a one off custom CAD built, Analyzed, CNC made, Over engineered custom suspension, that will out grip the best corvette ever built. It has to up to par, It doesnt' have to be high end or really expensive, a well rounded, well engineered suspesnion can be had that will still provide a decent ride and vastly improve the inferior stock supension.

5. Reliablity, the car must be well engineered, everything has to be well thought out and routed, assembled, plugged in, bolted, welded, or screwed in correctly and will not fail with extreme use if needed. If I have to Over do the cooling system, fuel system or electrical, I will spare no expense in the name of reliablity. I will take my car on long hauls and can not risk a break down, due to poor planning or laziness

6. Safety, not meant to be on the bottom of the list at all, but the car must be safe with all of the additions made to it. The 30 year old safety techonolgy that came with my car is not sufficient anymore, with the added horsepower, handling, and braking comes a lot of resonsibilty for myself and others traveling in the vehicle. Safety must always be a primary concern

7. Comfort, I must be able to stay in comfort while traveling in my vehicle. I put all the amenities in my car possilbe, including, AC, heat, power everything, accurate engine monitoring i.e. guages, supportive seats, a good sounding stereo system, and of course a decent ride that isnt' too stiff or hard.

8. Last but not least,Quality/Detail; a car that looks as good as it runs. Nothing is better than working on your car and admiring your craftmanship. Or having others compliment you on your abilities to create something beautiful!

For me, these are the recipes that make a well rounded pro-touring car. There are many versions and styles of Pro-touring like mentioned earlier, but you will notice that they all have similar ideas, and it becomes obvious that the car falls into the pro-touring status. If you are not sure if your car falls into this category, or don't really relate, your probably still have a wonderful car that everyone will still like. Build your car to make yourself happy, not to fit in. :santa3:



i purposely quoted all of your words because they really struck me. im new to the site & "sport'' of pro-touring but everything you said says everything i want to do.

thank you very much

[TonyL]

Yody, I've got to commend you on keeping your thread on topic, and keeping a cool head, with good advice.

Describe what pro-touring is. Not what it isn't
The words pro-touring has always made me think of cars like these
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2005/02/94italian20touring20car20championaudi208-1.jpg
imsa "touring" cars. This is where the what put the "touring" in pro-touring.

cars that can compete with real touring cars for the street.

[Jims78elky]

Kevin, sounds like a cool truck. I still wouldn't classify a truck as pro-touring.

A bone stock Porsche turbo can whip most cars in all categories, but it isn't pro-touring either. I'd say you have a kick ass sport performance truck. Trucks that can haul ass and handle aren't anything innovative, guys have been building them for years around Houston. There are even diesel duallies here running high 10s!


Well..Looks pretty innovative to me..:hmm:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Nine Ball]

Hey Jim, thanks for taking things out of context. Did you happen to notice I mentioned that El-Caminos, Rancheros, etc... are certainly candidates for pro-touring?

BTW, I clearly stated my statements were MY opinions. Sorry you disagree.

[Q ship]

just explain what it is about for you, nothing to do with the word "NOT"
Cody, unfortunately some people just aren't that open minded.
I'm with John, I've had enough. Just reading these posts in the last couple of days makes me want to puke.

I'll stick to the racing and tech sections from now on.

[Gonzostyle]

Well, my interpretation of Pro-Touring might be a little different than most. I own the street version of a Touring car (1988 E30 M3), as a matter of fact one of the most winning Touring cars of all times. The car has leather, AC, power windows, cruise control, and all the amenities available in 1988. The car is extremely comfortable to drive. Opps it does not have cup holders though.
However, my history is in old muscle cars; I still have my very first car (68 Camaro). So for me it is a natural desire to want to combine the two. I am building my cars for me and I am using my M3 as a benchmark. Unfortunately for me, I know that in stock street form, my M3 is far more capable than I am.
So I have 2 goals, first is to become a better driver (schools, open track days, etc), and number two is to try to get my American cars to have the balance of power, brakes, handling that my M3 has. This does not mean 800hp, 15”/14” rotors, billion piston calipers, multi link rear systems etc, etc, etc. Although I admit that I may need some of these to achieve my goals, but probably not all.
I figure the best place to start in my quest for a better handling American car is by tightening up the loose nut behind the wheel (anyone got a pilot wrench?). I am confident that I can improve my driving skills, but when/if I can get my old American Iron to handle like my E30 M3 I will be happy.

-Jeremie

[Salt Racer]

What is Pro Touring to me?

Mark Stielow's white Camaro circa 1993, and Jeff Smith's '65 Chevelle in the configuration when it competed in Automotive Triathlon.

I have no specific list of parts. Everyone has different financial situation. If anything, my requirement would be that all modifications should be driven by the desire to improve overall balance and performance. This may or may not include creature comforts and aesthetics.

Neither cars I mentioned above had super fancy parts, maybe except for Camaro's Fikse, aluminum block, and ProFlow EFI (all of which aren't that fancy anymore these days). No 8-piston Brembos, no twin turbos, no 20” wheels, not even 11” wide wheels. But both cars were balanced so well, and had incredible performance even by today's standard. Both of them will put most of higher-end PT style cars on this site to a shame without breaking a sweat (my car is on lower end so I have no shame). And most important of all, the owners weren’t afraid of pushing the limit of their cars. I remember seeing a pic of the Chevelle lifting inside front tire on a banked corner. That was really cool.


To me, these so-called “build styles” are more about how owners use their cars. Let me ask you this. Suppose some guy buys a 7-sec. Door slammer from a drag racer, swap in a crate 502 and use it only for cruise nights and never take it to the strip again. Would you still call this car a drag racer? I’m sure all of you would call it a Pro street car instead.

Term Pro Touring was derived from European touring race cars, such as ones competing in BTCC. There have always been many hot rods that are fast in straight line. There have always been many hot rods that can be driven on cross-country trips in comfort. There have always been many hot rods that are detailed and sparkled like jewelry. What differentiates PT cars from those traditional hot rods? Cornering performance.

If you are really into pro touring, use your car like the name “pro touring” suggests. If road courses scare you, try autocross. There are LOTS of auto-x events throughout the country, speed is low, and cones won't cause any damage.

I have nothing against street-only cars, and I understand the desire to improve driving experience. But all you really need to achieve this are rebuilt suspension, OE style front disc brakes, good set of tires and shocks, and perhaps good steering box. You don’t need trick suspension or monster brakes just to cruise around the town. Anyone who has driven on road course or auto-x will tell you, you’ll never find the limit of a decently equipped car on street. Tires and brakes will never get hot enough to reach their maximum performance.

If a guy shows up at auto-x event in a beat-up near-stock ’68 Chevy P/U and has fun dodging cones, IMO he's as much of a Pro Tourer as Mark Stielow and Jeff Smith.


I can't understand why everyone thinks his car has to be included in PT category, especially when his primary forcus of the build is clearly not overall performance. I don't give a fu(k if someone calls my car a cruiser, ghetto touring, rockcrawler (I got hang up on a 6-inch tall rock once), or whatever. I like my car and the way I'm building it, whatever the build style it may be called.

I too will stick to racing and tech sections from now on.

[trapin]

I like cars. :rolleyes5

[Bill Howell]

I like cars. :rolleyes5

ME TOO
I don't feel as if I have to fit anyone else's mold to enjoy my ride. I found this site when I began researching the term ProTouring. I had a new project and wanted to use this theme. I had a friend who had been on the power tour two years earlier in a 65 impala he called Pro-Touring. As I have learned since, basically he had a nice driver with shiny wheels. My car will be a nice driver and will probably not stand out in any one area but should do decent in everything I have set as a goal. Since where I live, a road coarse is not in my future. I have not put alot of high dollar susension under the car, but did rebuild it all with good bushings and new sway bars,springs and shocks. I have upgraded the brakes,driveline and wheels. I think Pro-Touring translates as a top of the line touring car. touring meaning streetable. Living in the mountains of east Tennessee and riding motorcylces here, my goal is to have a car that not only holds it's own on a drag strip but also can be enjoyed in the twistys in this area. I tend to think creature comforts are important too (maybe because of my age,mabye because fat boys sweat) so I will have a/c on my car. No cup holders though. German sedans have been touring sedans for a long time and having owned a 735, I tryed to follow that theme with my car.
Bill

[Roadrage David]

Pro-touring g-mashine cars to me is a overdue continuation of the Trans am raceing series aka the Pony car wars, its also using euro sports car suspention tegno to creat a beter handling car , if im not mistaken 75% of our cars in the touring seen are first gen camaro,s firebirds mustangs ecetera. in these days gone bye , the pony cars fought it out umongst themselfs and against porsches alfa,s bmw , if you look at David p ,s site umongst others and these old pic / cars you see the same stuff then as wat we are doing today ,but today with aded styl like rims/ interior. today our pony cars can compete again. this time to fight the rice burner crakerjack cars.so to me pro-touring g-mashine cars schould be race cars on the track and street..like i said to "me" nobody hase to agree with that!!

[Tiger]

To me it is an overpowered BMW M5 in an old American made body.

André

[Nine Ball]

Pro-touring g-mashine cars to me is a overdue continuation of the Trans an raceing series aka the Pony car wars, its also using euro sports car suspention tegno to creat a beter handling car , if im not mistaken 75% of our cars in the touring seen are first gen camaro,s firebirds mustangs ecetera. in these days gone bye , the pony cars fought it out umongst themselfs and against porsches alfa,s bmw , if you look at David p ,s site umongst others and these old pic / cars you see the same stuff then as wat we are doing today ,but today with aded styl like rims/ interior. today our pony cars can compete again. this time to fight the rice burner crakerjack cars.so to me pro-touring g-mashine cars to me schould be race cars on the track and street..like i said to "me" nobody hase to agree with that!!

That was my impression of Pro-Touring as well. Mustangs, F-bodies, Cudas, etc.... built with late model performance, and intended to be driven.