1st gen camaro with TVS

[Bad94]

Im doing a 1968 Camaro that getting a TVS kit, and the exhaust is in the way of the rear swaybar dog bones.

I talked to frank, and he gave me a few ideas. But does anyone have any pics of there rear swaybar with dual exhaust.

Thanks Dan

[TitoJones]

Don't run a rear sway bar, it will make the car oversteer like crazy.

Tyler

[Bad94]

Don't run a rear sway bar, it will make the car oversteer like crazy.

Tyler

thats what frank told me, but i hate not to run it, this car will never see the auto x. this is just a driver.

[chicane67]

thats what frank told me, but i hate not to run it, this car will never see the auto x. this is just a driver.

All the more important not to run one then.

In a controlled environment like that of an autoX... it would be somewhat easier to control the effects of over-steer as you have more room to maneuver and there are less things in proximity to hit when the chassis gets loose.

Just think about that when your on the street. Its either that... or dial a bunch of toe-out into the front alignment to combat a snap oversteer effect in street trim if you ever get to any aggressive driving during your commute.

:drive1:

[Lowend]

... but oversteer is so much fun


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Tony C.]

So my question would be, why would a reputable company like Hotchkis use a rear sway bar in their vehicle and also promote it in their TVS kit? I know that there are various discussions on this subject and it confuses me. I planned on using a 3/4" rear bar in my 72 Nova with a 1 1/8" front sway bar. Guess I'll just have to drive around with it and without it to find out what my car does better with.

Tony C.

[jknight16]

Personally, I would heed Tom and Tyler's advice. If they say it's not necessary, you'd probably better save yourself some coin and not run a rear bar.

[Tyler Beauregard]

So my question would be, why would a reputable company like Hotchkis use a rear sway bar in their vehicle and also promote it in their TVS kit? I know that there are various discussions on this subject and it confuses me. I planned on using a 3/4" rear bar in my 72 Nova with a 1 1/8" front sway bar. Guess I'll just have to drive around with it and without it to find out what my car does better with.

Tony C.

Because most people eat that sh*t up. The TVS kit does not address any of the main issues with the poor geometry of these cars. You get new springs/leafs, a super stiff bar for the front AND the rear, some leaf spring pads, and tie rod sleeves. You put it on a 42 year old car with worn out rubber bushings, sagging low rate springs, a tiny anti-roll bar and monoleafs and all of a sudden you have a Ferrari.

You don't have a Ferrari now, but because they've been around so long, and 90% of the guys at Camaros.net swear by it, it must be true right?

Wrong. You didn't add any positve caster, you didn't fix the bumpsteer, you didn't fix the lack of negative camber gain, and the car is far from seeing it's true effeciveness on the street. Is it better than it was? Sure. But it could be SOOOO much better. Worlds better. Ferrari better.

I can hear some of you saying:
"I don't intend to race my car. I don't really need anything better than this."

You would be missing the point. The point is to upgrade our cars to be more dependable, handle better, stop quicker, and be more like the BMW and Mercedes some are driving to work every day. Wouldn't you like your 42 year old muscle car to feel like your buddy's BMW M5? Or maybe you prefer your Boss's new C6 Corvette?
Point is that there are bolt on parts out there that will actually give you this level of performance; More importantly they will give your car the feel and confidence of a well refined modern day sports car.

If you want to refine your muscle car you should address these key areas in the suspension:

1. Fix the geometry- Tall spindles, the Guldstrand Mod, tall ball joints, etc. All of these help to give some much needed negative camber gain. Continue this trend with tubular upper control arms that ADD the amount of positive caster. If you added tubular control arms without adding a tall spindle, tall ball joint, or relocated the upper control arm, you essentially only added caster and didn't fix anything; you just vastly improved your alignment specs to more modern standards.
2. Steering. Most of us have factory frames with steering boxes still on them. If you do, get a new steering gear that uses the modern day R&P valving. The feedback of these boxes is more like the late model Aston Martin that you took for a test drive last summer. Replace all your worn steering items with new units. Get a modern day alignment with modern day specs. Throw the factory settings in the trash. The feel of the car is reflected back to you through the steering wheel, so you should have a streering system that gives you the feel and feedback performance you expect by driving any modern day vehicle.
3. Springs and shocks. This is one of the keys to a good handling, and great driving muscle car. Don't skimp here and you will be rewarded with precision, balance and comfort. Go the low road and you will feel all the harshness of the pebbles that litter the blacktop, and curse the 3 hour ride to Uncle Stewart's cabin late this fall.
4. Tires. Good tires are the last piece in this formula. Get a good sticky tire and enjoy the experince it gives when cutting through your favorite back road, or exiting the freeway off ramp a few MPH higher than the little yellow sign suggests.

Regarding the rear bar issue- I took a client-now-friend's newly aquired 67 Camaro out for a spin one day. I only drove it for about 3 minutes, and never looked under the hood or under the car before doing so. During our quick jaunt through our back industrial roads, I was fighting for control of the ass end the entire time and figured it was because it might have a rear bar on it. We get it back to the shop, throw it on the lift and there it was- Hotchkis rear sway bar. Curtis, the owner of said 67 Camaro, was advised to remove it when he wanted his car to behave better on the street. He ended up taking it off later that week and the car became much easier to drive at its limit, or in emergency manuevers.

Bottom line is do your homework for your chassis. You will soon be able to weed out the real stuff from the real fluff. Companies push what sells and what makes money; if all of you keep buying it without duing your due dilegence, they will keep pushing it on the masses. I like when a company educates you on why you should buy a part instead of telling you that it's 25% off and in stock. The more questions you ask these companies, the more they are going to need to have answers, and not just marketing knowledge.

Tyler

[toofun]

I can speak from experience... a bad experience.... DONT RUN THE REAR SWAY BAR!!

Mark
TOOFUN

[Bad94]

But what do i do with the rear bar? just not put it on and hope the hell to sell it and give some $$ back to him?

The car has all new front end bushings, bodymounts. The rear leaf bushing were the only thing that wasnt updated by the last shop that worked on it. But we have changed that.

[Norm Peterson]

I planned on using a 3/4" rear bar in my 72 Nova with a 1 1/8" front sway bar. Guess I'll just have to drive around with it and without it to find out what my car does better with.
This is not a legitimate thing to test on the street.

It is absolutely not something to do for a client whose driving credentials are completely unknown.

There is not nearly enough vehicle information to estimate just how loose it might be, but looseness that tends to get worse if you either decelerate (most peoples' normal reaction) or accelerate (assuming that circumstances even allow this to be a realistic choice) is a very scary place to find yourself. Trust me on this.

If you must experiment with this, do so at an auto-X, as the penalties there are normally limited to a few cones worth of time penalty or a DNF for that run . . . and wounded pride for having looped it in front of knowledgeable witnesses (who if asked are likely to tell you the same thing that you're hearing here).

If this were your own car and you still insist on connecting it up and driving it that way on the street (which for the record I strongly discourage), drive it gently - and if you feel any "looseness" or tail happiness AT ALL, under any circumstances, take it off ASAP. ASAP as in bring a couple of wrenches so you can disconnect one endlink to deactivate that rear bar on the spot.

Normal mild to moderate street driving only hints at what lies beyond in still harder driving, so what feels like only a little loose in normal driving will not stay little when you absolutely need the car to be more predictable rather than less so. If you haven't been there, you can't imagine it.

Something to keep in mind . . .no matter how badly you WANT the thing to work, emotional desires and mental energy can't change the physics.


Norm

[70camaro406]

Very good words of wisdom.

What do you guys (Tyler and Norm) recommend for 2nd gen Camaros?

I was planning on GEN II Racing stuff from Pro-TouringF-body.com: springs, shocks, sway bars, chassis stiffening items, solid mounts, competition upper A-arms with solid pivots, spherical lower A-arm bushings, all new HD steering components, fast ratio steering box (GM 600), etc. Should I leave the rear bar out also? I know that the 2nd gen cars were improved over the 1st gens as far as geometry and so forth. Just want to hear your thoughts on them.

Thanks,

Wayne

[79T/Aman]

BAD94 as a thought on your post, many feel that if they bought a part it should be used, not so especialy if it has negative effects that can even make a car dangerous.
Same thing on the 2nd gens don't run a rear bar, however you may want to try a small bar to help tune the car to the way YOU feel comfortable, I agree with Tyler's post and I'll ad that handling is more than just the sum of a car's parts but a combination of those parts and the DRIVER, and as Tyler pointed out modernizing the parts without correcting the inherant geometry deficiencies of the suspension.

[69LT1Nova]

Well... crap... I have the TVS kit on my Nova. I'll put the rear sway bar on and see what it feels like. If it sucks I'll disconnect it, drive to Hotchkiss HQ, and throw it through their front window.

[Norm Peterson]

I'm pretty sure that the 70's Camaros could be had with small to medium size rear bars, but that isn't very meaningful in itself and doesn't necessarily translate to whether it would work in a different chassis. Need to at least know the front bar size and the spring rates front and rear.

That said, I did ride with a guy who drove a big-block (402) Camaro that had both front and rear bars back in my TSD rallying days (I navigated). Can't remember the year or much more about the car - it's been over 30 years since - other than he eventually stiffened up both bars once he mostly quit autocross and stopped worrying about classing limitations. Stiffer bushings as I recall, not sure about any bar diameter increases.


Norm

[70camaro406]

...Need to at least know the front bar size and the spring rates front and rear.
Norm

Right now, I'm figuring 750# for the front springs with a 1 1/4" bar, and 225# rear springs. Tire-wise, i'm going to use either a 315/35-17 or 285/40-17 for the rear, and either 275/40-17 or 245/45-17 for the front....if that makes any difference.

[CarlC]

Well.....

One thing to consider is that the Hotchkis rear bar has a very low effective rate. The bar mounts very far inboard and has long arms, hence making the effective rate at wheel very low. When I ran it at the track there was little difference with the spring/shock setup that was on the car at that time. When Hotchkis developed this sway bar package they intended the rear bar to be a minor tuning tool. Given the minor effect on perfromance, and the subsequent spring change, I eliminated it from future use. I suggest trying it first without the bar before drilling holes in the rear seat pan.

Oh, and a set of Flowmaster tailpipes will fit just fine with the rear bar.

How ya been Tommy? It's been a while.

[zbugger]

Mary Pozzi runs a rear bar on her 2nd gen. She road races it, auto crosses it, And drives it on the street. It's a Hotchkis bar that has been modified. To say the 2nd gen outright doesn't need a rear bar is not true. My own '77 improved handling by putting a factory 5/8" rear bar on it. I've swapped to firmer springs out back, so once I get the car on the road I will have to determine whether I need one or not. I'm also changing the wheels and tires, and that will also weigh on my decision.

I see too many people thinking bigger is better and putting 3/4" and 1" bars out back. They'll take a turn at 20-25 mph thinking the car is on rails, but the car will slide everywhere if they go any faster. Bigger is not always better. Rear wheel/tire width will also have a decision on what you need out back. A bar is a tuning device. If you plan on testing, try an empty parking lot. Don't go out on the street and do it.

[Lowend]

The swaybars are a tuning tool... nothing more, no magic.

My 2nd gen is running a 1" solid case hardened steel rear swaybar. The car works great... I dare say I probably beat my car harder than all but 1 or 2 other members of this board.

[Brand X]

Because most people eat that sh*t up. The TVS kit does not address any of the main issues with the poor geometry of these cars. You get new springs/leafs, a super stiff bar for the front AND the rear, some leaf spring pads, and tie rod sleeves. You put it on a 42 year old car with worn out rubber bushings, sagging low rate springs, a tiny anti-roll bar and monoleafs and all of a sudden you have a Ferrari.

You don't have a Ferrari now, but because they've been around so long, and 90% of the guys at Camaros.net swear by it, it must be true right?

Wrong. You didn't add any positve caster, you didn't fix the bumpsteer, you didn't fix the lack of negative camber gain, and the car is far from seeing it's true effeciveness on the street. Is it better than it was? Sure. But it could be SOOOO much better. Worlds better. Ferrari better.

I can hear some of you saying:
"I don't intend to race my car. I don't really need anything better than this."

You would be missing the point. The point is to upgrade our cars to be more dependable, handle better, stop quicker, and be more like the BMW and Mercedes some are driving to work every day. Wouldn't you like your 42 year old muscle car to feel like your buddy's BMW M5? Or maybe you prefer your Boss's new C6 Corvette?
Point is that there are bolt on parts out there that will actually give you this level of performance; More importantly they will give your car the feel and confidence of a well refined modern day sports car.

If you want to refine your muscle car you should address these key areas in the suspension:

1. Fix the geometry- Tall spindles, the Guldstrand Mod, tall ball joints, etc. All of these help to give some much needed negative camber gain. Continue this trend with tubular upper control arms that ADD the amount of positive caster. If you added tubular control arms without adding a tall spindle, tall ball joint, or relocated the upper control arm, you essentially only added caster and didn't fix anything; you just vastly improved your alignment specs to more modern standards.
2. Steering. Most of us have factory frames with steering boxes still on them. If you do, get a new steering gear that uses the modern day R&P valving. The feedback of these boxes is more like the late model Aston Martin that you took for a test drive last summer. Replace all your worn steering items with new units. Get a modern day alignment with modern day specs. Throw the factory settings in the trash. The feel of the car is reflected back to you through the steering wheel, so you should have a streering system that gives you the feel and feedback performance you expect by driving any modern day vehicle.
3. Springs and shocks. This is one of the keys to a good handling, and great driving muscle car. Don't skimp here and you will be rewarded with precision, balance and comfort. Go the low road and you will feel all the harshness of the pebbles that litter the blacktop, and curse the 3 hour ride to Uncle Stewart's cabin late this fall.
4. Tires. Good tires are the last piece in this formula. Get a good sticky tire and enjoy the experince it gives when cutting through your favorite back road, or exiting the freeway off ramp a few MPH higher than the little yellow sign suggests.

Regarding the rear bar issue- I took a client-now-friend's newly aquired 67 Camaro out for a spin one day. I only drove it for about 3 minutes, and never looked under the hood or under the car before doing so. During our quick jaunt through our back industrial roads, I was fighting for control of the ass end the entire time and figured it was because it might have a rear bar on it. We get it back to the shop, throw it on the lift and there it was- Hotchkis rear sway bar. Curtis, the owner of said 67 Camaro, was advised to remove it when he wanted his car to behave better on the street. He ended up taking it off later that week and the car became much easier to drive at its limit, or in emergency manuevers.

Bottom line is do your homework for your chassis. You will soon be able to weed out the real stuff from the real fluff. Companies push what sells and what makes money; if all of you keep buying it without duing your due dilegence, they will keep pushing it on the masses. I like when a company educates you on why you should buy a part instead of telling you that it's 25% off and in stock. The more questions you ask these companies, the more they are going to need to have answers, and not just marketing knowledge.

Tyler

I'm glad I found your post. I'm new to the whole pro-touring/muscle car scene and was already about to purchase the TVS kit. Learned alot by reading your post.

[cdoggy81]

The ONLY rear bar I ever ran on my cars were the tiny factory bars that came stock on my all original #'s matching 70-73 TA's. Only reason I kept them = "all original #'s matching"...
My modified cars do not get them.

[chicane67]

How ya been Tommy? It's been a while.

BUSY ...and things just keep spiraling work up to no end. Maybe... some day... Ill start getting to the pile of parts that have been building up and actually get something accomplished on the hotrod. How are things on your end ?? We'll have to catch up soon...


On the subject of stay-bars (stablizer/sway... whatever your vernacular)... a rear bar isn't necessary unless you are correcting for, or tuning around, inadequate/improper spring rates or spring rates higher than most will ever deal with in a street chassis.

People most often just shake their heads in dis-belief when I tell them that I use a 320 in/lb rear spring rate... in combination with what seems like a paltry rate up front in comparison (720 in/lb)... and even shake their heads more so when I tell them that a rear bar isn't even necessary with a Hotchkis type (aka. leaf spring type) suspension. I guess they just don't seem to understand the implication of chassis balance without the use of band-aids (a rear bar being just that) or of the involved kinematics. The general populus has been berated over the last few decades with, "Bigger sway bars are better." In my opinion, a Hotchkis type rear suspension doesn't need a rear bar until you get into the 350 to 375 in/lb range in rate... and even then, I have only used a 0.500 to 0.5625" bar to tune around subtle kinematic irregularities in the specific chassis... and nothing bigger.

Just as Tyler stated, spring rate balance and damper valving are the key. The spring controls the mass... the damper controls the spring. All the stay-bar does is compliment the spring... and it has no other job to do outside of a response to yaw. And it is also true that most people want to spend the least to get the most. The aftermarket cats have been doing this for years... and it was a simple way to improve the characteristics of the OEM suspension... vice that of replacing all the necessary components to correct for the inadequacies in the simplicity of design some forty years ago. It was the mind-frame of, "Installing a bigger bar will net you more of an improvement in handling per dollar spent than almost anything else you can do." That same mindset, in todays terms, is no longer anywhere near being valid.

One thing I must convey... superior high-speed handling is more than just high cornering power. It must include a balance of both high cornering power and correct yaw response characteristics. A car with superior high-speed handling is produced only by the systematic modification of a wide range of suspension components. Just bolting on a sway bar or some other part won’t get the job done. Lastly, as cornering speeds get higher, the suspension system must get stiffer in order to handle the increased energy levels. Big bars work great at low speeds... but suffer the consequences everywhere else.

Norm's ideal is the best. Get somewhere to do it right... and take some simple tools. You will also want to play around with the toe settings as well. There is a fine line that is easily crossed in terms of under/oversteer dealing with rear bars and the toe adjustment.

[JEFFTATE]

I put a rear bar on my car because it seemed to help on the Autocross.
I have 700 in/lb frt springs and a huge frt anti-roll bar ( 1 1/4 in. dia.)
The rear leaf springs are only 175 in/lb , so the rear bar helped my setup.
Really , I should use different front and rear springs , but that will come later.
The components on the car were given to me for FREE , so I made use of them.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Strictly on the subject of the bar. I will be the first to say the rear bar is probably not needed in most cases on first gen. I tell people the rear bar may or may not help. The car will handle good without the rear bar in most cases. You cannot group exery car together and say yes or no to the rear sway bar. One car may have a heavy Big block, A/C, front mounted battery, and 255 tires on the rear. Another may have a Aluminum head small block, No A/C, trunk full of stereo, Trunk mounted battery and 275s on the back. the front to rear weight balance of those cars could be 300lbs different. Those 2 cars will not respond the same to the rear sway bar.

[Roadrage David]

howabout running a custom sway bar on a dse mini tubt car!!! i rather have overstear then understear!! with 255 in frond and 315/335 in the rear.....................

[Norm Peterson]

A very small amount of oversteer at low speed is OK (at least under some or maybe even most circumstances). That same "little" at triple digit MPH / closing in on 200 KPH . . . . isn't.


Norm

[maldo]

:headbang:

[chicane67]

how about running a custom sway bar on a dse mini tubt car!!! i rather have overstear then understear!! with 255 in front and 315/335 in the rear.....................

Well... there is another prime example of why 'bigger isnt always better.'

For those who just gotta have the steamrollers out back... especially since you have been warned plenty not to... now you get to see what your decisions yield (also how you have been led astray), and just how much more you need to spend to get around the associated problems.... primarily, massive understeer.

A custom bar should be all that hard to manage. I think you could get away with making up a splined bar set-up with what the market already has to offer. Speedway Motorsports, Left Hander Chassis, BSR... and even ATS might be able to help you out with the parts for a complete assembly... of course, some assembly and fabrication required.

You can also dial in some amount of toe out... to help combat those issues.

[69bird400]

guys i need your help
i have a 69 trans am clone convertible 400 auto.
i want to pro tour the car but all the crap i read confuses the hell out of me.
can you give me a list of what i should get (including brand names)
i was thinking about the ride tech competition air ride system but 7 grand is alot of dough before shipping and installation?

is it the best way to go or is there a more reasonable priced way too go?
thanks for your help

[Roadrage David]

Well... there is another prime example of why 'bigger isnt always better.'

For those who just gotta have the steamrollers out back... especially since you have been warned plenty not to... now you get to see what your decisions yield (also how you have been led astray), and just how much more you need to spend to get around the associated problems.... primarily, massive understeer.

A custom bar should be all that hard to manage. I think you could get away with making up a splined bar set-up with what the market already has to offer. Speedway Motorsports, Left Hander Chassis, BSR... and even ATS might be able to help you out with the parts for a complete assembly... of course, some assembly and fabrication required.

You can also dial in some amount of toe out... to help combat those issues.

and what acsample is that!!!!! i never said nor claimed i had understear!!!!!!!

[ProdigyCustoms]

guys i need your help
i have a 69 trans am clone convertible 400 auto.
i want to pro tour the car but all the crap i read confuses the hell out of me.
can you give me a list of what i should get (including brand names)
i was thinking about the ride tech competition air ride system but 7 grand is alot of dough before shipping and installation?

is it the best way to go or is there a more reasonable priced way too go?
thanks for your help

There are a lot of ways to go depending on budget, needs and wants. And most time it does not come from one manufacturer. Sometimes the best package is a combination from various manufacturers.

[Norm Peterson]

howabout running a custom sway bar on a dse mini tubt car!!! i rather have overstear then understear!! with 255 in frond and 315/335 in the rear.....................


. . . to get around the associated problems.... primarily, massive understeer.


and what acsample is that!!!!! i never said nor claimed i had understear!!!!!!!
I still don't know what kind of point you're trying to make, David.


Norm

[Rhino]

and what acsample is that!!!!! i never said nor claimed i had understear!!!!!!!
He never specifically said that you had under steer. He was stating the fact that excessively wide tires are known to cause understeer.

To paraphrase what he was saying a little...
Do you have massive understeer caused by the tires you chose for appearance? Great! Add a sway bar at an additional cost.

If you don't have the understeer, a sway bar is probably not needed on a first gen Camaro. It's useless weight at best

[Serpa69]

I have read all of these posts and I think that it really is personal driving experience and preference more than anything. For some one to say I think the bar sucks and I wouldn’t run one is fine but I do not agree. I think some people like it and others don’t. I have one on my car but it is in conjunction with many suspension and chassis mods (new arms, Gmod, steering gear, bigger bars, subframe connectors, shocks, springs, cage, ect) I like the predictability it gives to the car. I have ran it with and without the bar and I put it back in. I did however weld all the mounting points to the body and rear end because I thought the bolt in install was a Pile. I go to many open road course days at VIR and Summit Point and my puny 400 hp small block powered 69 Camaro goes faster than many out there.

[70camaro406]

I go to many open road course days at VIR and Summit Point and my puny 400 hp small block powered 69 Camaro goes faster than many out there.

What events do you go to at Summit Point? I'd like to see your car and setup in action, as I plan to do some driving there when my car is finished. BTW, I live just a few miles away from the track.

[JEFFTATE]

I put a rear bar on my car because it seemed to help on the Autocross.
I have 700 in/lb frt springs and a huge frt anti-roll bar ( 1 1/4 in. dia.)
The rear leaf springs are only 175 in/lb , so the rear bar helped my setup.
Really , I should use different front and rear springs and a smaller front bar, but that will come later.
The components on the car were given to me for FREE , so I made use of them.

BUT !
I am experiencing what I think is Snap Oversteer.
It's NOT noticable on an Autocross at lower speeds,
but at 45-50 mph or faster on the street , in a sweeping turn ,
the car will suddenly alter its course.
I'm not sure if it's the suspension binding and unloading because of the urethane bushings , or if its bumpsteer , or if its in the steering box , or just the use of the rear swaybar .
But the car darts around and "twitches" in a curve.
I can get the steering wheel set where I want it and partway through the curve the car will shimmy and I have to tug on the steering wheel one way or the other.

[chicane67]

I would actually need to know more about your alignment settings... but, I would guess that you have way too much front roll stiffness (by the definition of your 'huge' stay-bar) and as the chassis rotates into the corner... you end up unloading the inside front tire and increasing the amount of roll on the rear suspension enough to drive into and past the slip angle of the current tire that you are running.

There are also some other influences that would most likely amplify this issue. More of the likes of too little toe out, incorrect rear tire pressure settings and/or an unknown amount of chassis twist that 'sets' a condition of becoming un-balanced. I think that may be evident in your description of it feeling 'twitchy.'

[JEFFTATE]

I would actually need to know more about your alignment settings... but, I would guess that you have way too much front roll stiffness (by the definition of your 'huge' stay-bar) and as the chassis rotates into the corner... you end up unloading the inside front tire and increasing the amount of roll on the rear suspension enough to drive into and past the slip angle of the current tire that you are running.

There are also some other influences that would most likely amplify this issue. More of the likes of too little toe out, incorrect rear tire pressure settings and/or an unknown amount of chassis twist that 'sets' a condition of becoming un-balanced. I think that may be evident in your description of it feeling 'twitchy.'

Thanks Tom ,
One other note is that the steering wheel does not move in my hand when the car begins to alter it's course.
Particularly on a right hand turn the car will decrease the radius of the turn and I'll run off the right side of the road.
I have to correct in the middle of the corner.( Slightly pull the steering wheel left ).
It's not as severe on left hand turns.

My alignment settings :
Camber
Left : -.4 degree Right : -.7 degree
Caster
Left : + 4.3 degrees Right : + 4.7 degrees
Toe
7/32 " IN

I've got 245 tires on the front at 40psi.
And 275 tires on the back with 40psi.
( Pirelli P-Zero Neros with a 400 treadwear rating. )

I've got urethane bushings in all the suspension except the front eyes of the rear springs. They're still rubber.
I have solid body mounts , but no subframe connectors or cage.

[Serpa69]

What events do you go to at Summit Point? I'd like to see your car and setup in action, as I plan to do some driving there when my car is finished. BTW, I live just a few miles away from the track.

I usually try it get in on the FAT's (Friday at the track) if they do not have an event. They have these events most of the year and you have to sign up early. There is a Red ZO6 with a super charger and it is the fastest car I have ever seen and just kills everyone

[Damn True]

Thanks Tom ,
One other note is that the steering wheel does not move in my hand when the car begins to alter it's course.
Particularly on a right hand turn the car will decrease the radius of the turn and I'll run off the right side of the road.
I have to correct in the middle of the corner.( Slightly pull the steering wheel left ).
It's not as severe on left hand turns.

My alignment settings :
Camber
Left : -.4 degree Right : -.7 degree
Caster
Left : + 4.3 degrees Right : + 4.7 degrees
Toe
7/32 " IN

I've got 245 tires on the front at 40psi.
And 275 tires on the back with 40psi.
( Pirelli P-Zero Neros with a 400 treadwear rating. )

I've got urethane bushings in all the suspension except the front eyes of the rear springs. They're still rubber.
I have solid body mounts , but no subframe connectors or cage.

Are you positive you aren't hitting your bumpstops?