Coming Soon: 4L65RR Manumatic System

[Steve Chryssos]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Installing this week. The 4L65-RR consists of the following:
-Bowler Transmissions 4l65E rated to support 550 Ft-Lbs of torque
-Pro Torque MuscleDrive 9.5" torque converter
-Compushift Transmission Controller with LCD Display
-Twist Machine Paddle Shifter

Great strides have been made in bringing manumatic technology to the pro-touring community. We can input shifts manually from the steering wheel, calibrate transmission function, and control engine/transmission coupling electronically. It all works extremely well, but we want more:
1) Just how fast can the 4L series of transmission be made to shift?
2) Can shift predictability be improved?
3) Can enhanced engine braking be employed to benefit vehicle dynamics in road racing and auto-X environments?
4) Can all of this be achieved without sacrificing reliability?

While we (Twist Machine) were working from the outside in, Bowler Transmissions has been working from the inside out--by custom blueprinting and calibrating valve bodies, pumps and working with internal clearances. Just as with custom race engines, blueprinting and calibration are as important as parts selection. And just as with engines, mass produced units might be very good, but nothing compares to a precisely hand built and tested product. For those who insist on the best possible multi-purpose transmission for a pro-touring application, the sum total is worth more than the parts.

We're excited about testing the system out at Year One. Upon our return, we'll start offering the above listed items as complete, fully integrated packages called the 4L65-SR (450FtLbs) and 4L65-RR (550FtLbs). 4L80E packages will also be available up to 800FtLbs.

[neki67]

:1st: Great going Steve.

Will parts be available seperate as well? Would like some enhanced engine braking from the 4L80E.

[Steve1968LS2]

Nice.. press release?

[Steve Chryssos]

:1st: Great going Steve.

Will parts be available seperate as well? Would like some enhanced engine braking from the 4L80E.

Some of the parts like valve bodies are available separately. I'm curious to see if the extra engine braking is overbearing. It may slow the car down too much. I'll report back in two weeks.

[Steve Chryssos]

Nice.. press release?

Yup and better, yet: I'm shooting an entire install for you.
/Steve

[hmartin]

Looks AWESOME!:drool: Keep us updated.

[neki67]

I'm curious to see if the extra engine braking is overbearing. It may slow the car down too much. I'll report back in two weeks.

OK, sounds great, Steve.

[meenaggie]

Steve, ballpark price for the 4L65-SR and 4L65-RR kits? Looking forward to seeing more info after the Year One event.

[Steve Chryssos]

Steve, ballpark price for the 4L65-SR and 4L65-RR kits? Looking forward to seeing more info after the Year One event.

We''ll have pricing soon. In the meantime, here are the RR transmission specs:

HARD PARTS
-Performance Wide 2-4 Band/New OEM Drum: Used in conjunction, these parts yield maximum surface contact.
-Hardened and Reinforced Input Shaft: Steel sleeve pressed over input shaft for reinforcement.
-Cryogenic Treated Drum
-Machine Coast Clutch Piston for Clearance and Add O-Ring Seal
-Heavy Duty 5 Pinion Front & Rear Planet: with new Sun Gear and new Ring Gear. No junkyard parts.
-SPX "The Beast" Hardened Sun Shell: blueprinted in conjunction with new reverse input drum for matched set. Very important.
-Sonnax Billet 2nd Gear Servo with D-cut O-ring for leak free seal
-Super Hold billet 4th Gear Servo with 30% more apply force. D-cut O-ring for leak free seal.
-Raybestos ZPak 14 element 3-4 Clutch Upgrade for ultimate heat dissipation.
-Borg Warner Low/Rev Sprag 29 element for maximum load capacity
-Torrington Bearing Kit
-Master Kit (gaskets, seals bushings, filter etc.)
-New Inspection Cover
BLUEPRINTED AND CALIBRATED PUMP
-Hand Blueprinted Pump
-Unbreakable High Rev Hardened Pump Rings
-New HP Boost Valve
-New Pump Vanes
BLUEPRINTED AND CALIBRATED VALVEBODY
-Hand Blueprinted Valve Body
-Shift Kit: Custom calibrated to your application.
-New Shift Solenoid
-New EPC Solenoid
-New PWM Solenoid
-New Manifold Pressure Switch
-New Internal Wiring Harness w/New TCC Solenoid
-New Extra Capacity Pan
-New! New! New! Bowler supplies an un-equalled number of new parts such as wiring harnesses, connectors, sensors, etc.

[meenaggie]

Got a price from Bowler on the 4L60E kit rated for 450 ft-lbs of ~$4400 and the 4L65E rated for 550 ft-lbs of ~$5900 based on kits from their website. This kit had the Transmission, Torque Converter, Transmission Mount, Transmission Cooler, Dust Cover, Universal Fill Tube, HGM Electronic Stand-alone Controller BUT obviously not the manumatic setup from Twist Machine. I hope Steve is able to work some majic to get the price down.

[Steve Chryssos]

Price is always a sticky subject with regards to automatics. The majority of that cost lies in the transmission itself. It's possible to by a "rebuilt" 4L60E somewhere for $1500. But that is the price for what is essentially a junkyard trans with fresh OE grade frictions and a shift kit. Torque capacity? Whatever a stock LT1 4th gen can put out. If you are transplanting a bone stock LT1 or a very mild gen one 350, a stock rebuild may work for you. And Bowler sells a 350 Ft-Lb version for $2250. Dollar for dollar, I assure you that it is a better value than that $1500 clunker.

Retail for the double throw-down Bowler 4L65E-550 described above is $3700. But you need to look at that expense in the same light as a custom built race engine. What crank am I getting? Pistons? Rods? What brand components are used? Are the pistons JE or TRW? How about machining? Is the engine block align honed? Are torque plates used? How much hand finishing labor is applied such as head porting and gasket matching?

With regards to engines, the list of questions is usually quite long. This is to ensure that power and reliability are carefully factored into the expense. Comparing engine specs and features is a time honored tradition in hot rodding. The same care and consideration must be applied to high end transmissions. But I have found that most transmission builders fail to properly convey that message. The result is that buyers tend to shop based on price alone. It's not the buyer's fault. They don't have enough information. That's why I took great care to lay out the 4L65E-550's specifications in my earlier post.

If that makes sense, then all that's left is to have an honest discussion about torque ratings. They are dependent on tire selection and usage. 550 Ft-Lbs on slicks is very different than 550 Ft-lbs on low profile tires. Likewise, a car that gets raced frequently is very different than a pure street car. Vin's car has a 700HP big block and a relatively stock 4L80E. We shopped by price only--same as everyone else. The combination gets abused almost daily. We fully intend to drive over that transmission in the near future.

The RR and SR packages are not designed to be cheap. The goal is to provide a matched system that kicks ass. We want to see just how much vehicle performance can be extracted from an automatic transmission. We want you to keep your hands on the wheel and your foot on the gas. That way you are free to concentrate on the perfect line. We've already proved it: A good manumatic will make YOU faster. That's what this is about.

So prices will be comparable to Bowler's own kits. We supply our own torque converters and a paddle shifter. Bowler supplies an installation kit. I haven't run the numbers, but I expect it to be a wash.

My car ran a "clunker" trans for years without fail. It leaked like a sieve and squealed like a pig on WOT upshifts. But it never failed. Poor little transmission. I did very bad things to it. :spank2: :bicycle: :machine: :evil: :help!: And no way would that trans deserve a Bowler 550 Ft-Lb rating. I never ran slicks.

So there are affordable alternatives. And we WILL honor RR and SR system prices even if you buy the parts in stages. We'll do our best to steer you in the right direction.

[1969CamaroRS]

What about for someone who wanted to rebuild their own trans and was looking for what hard parts to put in it to build it up, or do you only deal with prepackaged transmissions?

Thanks in advance!

[MarkB]

I do not see the pricing coming down on these units. The 450 and 550 ft lbs kits above, do not have the valve body & other internal modifications or Steve's Shrifter in the package. If you look at the whole package the pricing is not as bad as it seems. Remember what you are getting, this is not an off the shelf unit that is assembled by mass production. Each unit is hand built by one person, completely detailed and set up specific to the vehicle. As Steve listed above the amount of new parts that is installed in each unit along with the amount of details you can not get this anywhere else. The valve bodies are carefully prepped, the springs, valves, sleeves, end plugs & surfaces are addressed to ensure that the right combination is put together, surface and valve bore surfaces are very critical and it is important to eliminate cross leaks. The same attention is given to the pump, pressure regulator system, pump vains, rotor, guide, springs to ensure that you transmission will created the proper amount of pressure. No details are missed through out the build. Electronic transmissions are great and the ability to fine tune and set every item is awesome. Tuning electronically is great, but if the right amount of love is not given to the internal working of the transmission you will not get the results you expect. There is hours spent setting up everything properly. You can mask many issues by adjusting shift timing and pressures, but trust me it will bite you in the end.
When comparing transmissions, ensure you are looking at each detail of the components in the transmission and the accessories in the package. Most companies sell the transmission bare bones. Ask some of the other shops to send you a detailed print out of exactly what is going in each unit; it is a very short list. Nothing against other companies, we just look at the whole package and try and address everything differently. It seems like a great deal until you take it out of the box and determine that you have to buy a multitude of additional parts and pieces just to finish the install. Again the focus of these transmissions are complete packages that make everyone’s life easier, and to provide the best overall performance for your project. A transmission is a true precision part of your overall project and is unfortunately overlooked and many times the last item on the list after the budget is blown on the engine and other important components of the vehicle. Remember there is only one way to transfer the power to the pavement! No matter what company you go with, do not ignore the importance of quality. Hopefully a Bowler / Twist Machine transmission package will be considered for your next project.

As Steve tries to break the transmission next week. I will be at the Year One Experience to help answer any questions or if you have your vehicle there and need assistance with tuning just stop by the booth and ask, of course I may have to take it around Road Atlanta to get it fully set up.

Thanks,
Mark
Bowler Performance Transmissions

[TitoJones]

I don't think that pricing is out of line at all for a well built automatic. The Viper spec T-56 is $3600, not including a bellhousing, clutch setup, crossmember etc.

Very well thought out kit. Can't wait to hear your driving impressions.

Tyler

[Steve Chryssos]

What about for someone who wanted to rebuild their own trans and was looking for what hard parts to put in it to build it up, or do you only deal with prepackaged transmissions?

Thanks in advance!

We have paddle shifter/computer and paddle shifter/computer/torque converter package deals. So you CAN go your own way on the transmission.

To reiterate, the goal of these systems is to push the envelope on shift quality and total vehicle performance. We're going after the best OE supercar systems. Over the past four years, we've managed to get these transmissions to shift quickly and predictably through computer tuning. Vehicle performance further improved with torque converter development. As Mark stated, the goal here is to get the most of computer tuning by going inside the transmission.

Bowler or Twist, we both reached the point where cranking up the tune did not yield additional benefits. Mark has spent the last few years developing mechanical blueprinting processes that extract that extra performance. The RR system is about extracted those additional gains. It's an on-going process.

Compushift plays into the formula as well. Unfortunately, it is too technical for bench racing. They employ feed-forward compensation circuitry for their controllers that respond more quickly than GM's standard feedback circuitry. If that sounds like spew, look here: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6222418.html We switched over to Compushift in Vin's blue car and with absolutely no other changes, the car shifts more quickly and predictably. I had to call Mike Hoy to confirm if my observations were valid.

[meenaggie]

Thanks Mark and Steve for all the info (and for the many times you have helped others on this forum even when it was with a product you didn't make a penny from). Looks like a system that you wouldn't be disappointed with if you decided tospend the money. I think Steve hit the nail on the head with matching the transmission system to the rest of your car / engine and what you plan on using it for (i.e autocross or weekend crusing).

[MrQuick]

...so who do I make the check out to?

[Steve Chryssos]

Sorry if that's not exactly clear. We're working together on this. I will add the RR and SR systems to the TwistMachine.com website.
The packages include:
-Bowler Transmission
-ProTorque Torque Converter
-Compushift Transmission Controller-Calibrated
-Twist Machine Paddle Shifter

We don't sell ANYTHING without testing first, so off to Year One we go!

[MrQuick]

ok fine.....i'll wait.

[rjsjea]

:cool: .........

[meenaggie]

Steve, we are all waiting for a post Road Atlanta update . . . how did the test drive go?

[Steve Chryssos]

TOTALLY AWESOME! Trans temps held steady with the Redline Oil D4 at 220 even with lap after lap of high rev high speed runs. The engine braking feature is insane. Shift time is very quick despite not being harsh. I'm not quite sure how Bowler pulls that off, but they do. I always assumed that very quick shifts automatically meant harsh shifts. The RR just goes OOMPH! and it's in the next gear.

On Road Atlanta I had the Compushift set to lock up in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th o you have direct drive coupling between engine and trans. I used 2nd and 3rd gear almost exclusively, so I never missed having the additional gears of a manual trans. Road Atlanta is a fast, but very hilly course. So just picture that most of the track can be run in 3rd gear at 1:1 with my 3.70 rear gears. All of the steep inclines occur just after tight turns and heavy braking. So finish your braking in a straight line in 3rd gear, tap down to second, apex, and put the power back on knowing that the car is 100% in 2nd gear for sure. Nail it, climb the hill tap up to 3rd at redline and haul ass back up to redline. Repeat.
On the street, I kept the shifter in 3rd gear. Lock up occurs at 48mph. Again, I don't know what sinister magic Bowler applies to their calibration, but lock up feels like a whole extra gear. And it stays locked up until vehicle speed drops below 28mph. So the car just chugs along in direct drive. Feels sounds and performs just like a manual until you slow down below 28 mph. Then you have all of the smoothness of a Cadillac. No clutch pedal; no jerking. I will drive it like this everywhere. 4th gear will only be used for highway cruising economy.

I am blown away. The MuscleDrive converter was a big step forward. But going back into the trans and optimizing the hard calibration for this exact combination completed the scene. WE DID IT! RR packages will ship with an advanced calibration that can only be supplied when all of the pieces are used together. Trans-Converter-Compushift-Shrifter.

Thanks for looking
/Steve

[Damn True]

Steve,

Have you given any thought to capturing fuel economy metrics for a car with a basic slushbox vs. a finely calibrated manumatic? It might provide some interesting and enlightening debunking of the "automatics get worse mileage" paradigm.

[derekf]

Steve,

Have you given any thought to capturing fuel economy metrics for a car with a basic slushbox vs. a finely calibrated manumatic? It might provide some interesting and enlightening debunking of the "automatics get worse mileage" paradigm.Don't know that in the long run there can be any positive difference -- even if the torque convertor did a 100% lock up, if the transmissions have equivalent gearing you're comparing a direct drive versus a direct drive that's having to run a hydraulic pump.

Or perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps the differences are miniscule, or the gearing doesn't have to be the same with the torque multiplication of the convertor. I'd like to be.

[Damn True]

Well I'm not assuming the difference would be eliminated. There would have to be more parasitic loss, but perhaps the difference between the two might be mitigated to some degree.

[Steve Chryssos]

It's not impossible to test. Compare a 700R4 to a 4L60E. Maybe we can talk Tommy Parker into testing his 700R4 and then making the swap. No way will I ever put a 700R4 back in my car after driving the 4L65RR.

That would be sacrilege. Anyway, I expect the biggest difference would come from comparing a typical street/strip torque converter to my MuscleDrive product. ...And Tommy already has one of my converters ahead of his 700R4. So the test might come up nil. He bought serial number one production converter from us. Thanks Tommy, for having faith in us. He picked up something like 20 or 30 rear wheel from just the trans rebuild and converter.

Oh and remember not to confuse parasitic loss with coupling efficiency.

[Damn True]

Oh and remember not to confuse parasitic loss with coupling efficiency.

Hadn't even thought of that actually. I'm sure there's a bunch of both.

Just thinkin out loud, but I can't help but think that there might be some folks for whom there is resistance to your solution because it's an auto and therefore precieved to be less efficient.

[Steve Chryssos]

.....Just thinkin out loud, but I can't help but think that there might be some folks for whom there is resistance to you solution because it's an auto and therefore precieved to be less efficient.

Of course there is. That's why we keep driving the wheels off our cars. They run hard, they don't break. We have all kinds of fun. As long as the cars are fast and consistent and fun, percentage loss is just a coupla words. I never try to tell people that our products are better than manuals or that our manumatics work exactly the same as a manual. I only guarantee people the best automatic transmission experience of their lives. I can do that confidently.

[Damn True]

Understood. I'm just saying that one potential roadblock for some folks might be the point of slushbox efficiency. If you could clearly show that your config mitigates the inefficiencies of automatics you could potentially clear that hurdle with some folks.

I myself have a roadblock to your solution and that is the preconceived notion that a manual will be more "fun". Awfully tough to quantify I know. One of these days I need to get back there and drive one of those things. I have a feeling I'm wrong.

[Steve Chryssos]

Very tough. The manual box offers visceral excitement of yanking back and forth on a stick as well as direct drive coupling across the rev range. We've made huge progress with coupling efficiency and shift time, but we replace that visceral sensation with a simple, unemotional "tap". People need to realize that we are freeing them up to concentrate on that thing in front of the car called: the road. Gas, Brake, Steering. The paddle shifter frees you up to concentrate on your driving line. And since most of us are amateurs--Learning car control is paramount. There is no fear of missing a gear or worse--a catastrophic 5th to 1st accidental downshift. No chance of catastrophic over-revs. So that occasional hesitation during gear changes is gone (The one that no-one will admit to). Shift times are faster and there is ZERO power interrupt. When its time to turn your brain off (i.e. traffic), there is always automatic mode. Try that with your stick. During lock up, the Bowler 4L65RR chugs just like a manual. Below lock up (currently 28mph on my carbureted small block) the system offers silky smooth power delivery like a Cadillac. We can make it chug at 15mph, but have realized that it is better to dial it out because we can.

There are tons of benefits, but yanking back and forth on that stick is a powerful temptress--even as we approach the coupling efficiency of a fully mechanical trans and shave shift time.

[Greg from Aus]

Hi Steve is there any plans to go down this path with a 4L80E set up for big HP engines around 1000hp

Thanks
Greg

[Steve Chryssos]

There will be 4L80RR packages, but not until more testing is done. And I strongly doubt that the RR mods will be applied to super high powered applications. Just a wild guess, but the limit may be more like 700 FtLbs of torque. Sprag failure is the primary concern with the engine braking mod. 4L65E development, on the other hand, has already benefited from five years and thousands of miles in Bowler house and Air Ride cars. The 80RR's have a lot of catching up to do. We're gonna test one in our Hoover project car, aka the red car, aka the car formerly known as the red car. We call it Hoover now, because it sucks up so much cash in the form of do-overs. If the 4L80RR breaks in that car, it will just be another do-over. So Hoover is the perfect test car.

Bowler still makes tough 4L80E transmissions that handle that kind of big power (800 FtLbs or more), just not with the RR mods at this time.

[amx2334]

I am in the process of going from 4spd to auto with plans to use your paddle shifter.
How long did it take to overcome the urge to reach for the shifter with your right hand and push the clutch with left leg? I have been doing this for 20+ years and it's kinda habitual.I get the feeling I'm going to be reaching out into thin air and stomping the floorboard.
Are the GM transmissions the only ones in the pipeline?

[Steve Chryssos]

Those little paddles are so intuitive. They're just right there. Your fingers fall back and TAP! Actually the biggest problem we have is convincing people not to bitch-slap the paddles. Vinnie A was the worst offender. He used to take his whole hand off the wheel and whack the paddle. A light touch and controlled squeeze is the only way to get the job done. The RF device needs adequate signal burst to work, so if you quickly slap the paddle the receiver does not get enough signal. You can practice working the paddle shifter with the engine off and the key on. Tap and listen for the clicks. Practice that a few times and you'll never look back. I use the sides of my fingers now instead of the tips.

I like to take things slow in order to guarantee your satisfaction. So I will only be selling the the RR systems for GM transmissions at this time. We'll get to the Ford stuff eventually. The Ford stuff might even be easier since overdrive is applied electrically. I really want to try a Ford 5R55 five speed behind my LS1 build. But that's just a dream at this stage. We'll see.
/Steve

[Damn True]

Very tough. The manual box offers visceral excitement of yanking back and forth on a stick as well as direct drive coupling across the rev range. We've made huge progress with coupling efficiency and shift time, but we replace that visceral sensation with a simple, unemotional "tap". People need to realize that we are freeing them up to concentrate on that thing in front of the car called: the road. Gas, Brake, Steering. The paddle shifter frees you up to concentrate on your driving line. And since most of us are amateurs--Learning car control is paramount. There is no fear of missing a gear or worse--a catastrophic 5th to 1st accidental downshift. No chance of catastrophic over-revs. So that occasional hesitation during gear changes is gone (The one that no-one will admit to). Shift times are faster and there is ZERO power interrupt. When its time to turn your brain off (i.e. traffic), there is always automatic mode. Try that with your stick. During lock up, the Bowler 4L65RR chugs just like a manual. Below lock up (currently 28mph on my carbureted small block) the system offers silky smooth power delivery like a Cadillac. We can make it chug at 15mph, but have realized that it is better to dial it out because we can.

There are tons of benefits, but yanking back and forth on that stick is a powerful temptress--even as we approach the coupling efficiency of a fully mechanical trans and shave shift time.

I'm tellin ya, I am really starting to warm up to the idea. It's just such a huge paradigm shift. I really gotta get behind the wheel of one.

[Steve Chryssos]

I'm tellin ya, I am really starting to warm up to the idea. It's just such a huge paradigm shift. I really gotta get behind the wheel of one.

Hop a plane. I'll let you get behind the wheel of two or three. In the meantime, I will borrow Vin's camera mount and shoot some in car video. You can compare it to older videos and instantly see the improvements made by the converter and new transmission.

[amx2334]

I can see it now. Wife catches me late at night in the garage going vroom vroom. Honestly dear I was practicing.

[1969CamaroRS]

You have me really excited about trying a automatic with paddle shifters, been on the fence between sticking with automatic (have a 700R4 now) and switching to a 5/6 speed manual.

A nicely built automatic with paddle shifters sounds like the best of both worlds!

Approximately what would the 4L80E packages run, say for 800ft/lbs? I'm guess my motor puts out about 600ft/lbs but I want to be able to run slicks and abuse it at the track and not have to worry about breaking stuff.


Thanks!

[rjsjea]

When is the package pricing on the 4l65RR gonna be out??

[Steve Chryssos]

Monday. We're just working out the details on the advanced TCU calibrations. It takes quite a bit more time to calibrate the TCU's as compared to the standard calibrations. I mean like hours vs minutes. We're trying to see if we can automate the process.

[GetMore]

Any updates? I'm kind of feeling like a kid during Christmas.

[Steve Chryssos]

Yup. RR Calibration is complete. We're editing some video right now. I'l post it up within two hours.

[1969CamaroRS]

Nice can't wait for the update.

[Roadrage David]

what about this 765l4 http://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/tenseconds.html http://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/catalog/catalog_inc/viewitem.php?ITEMID=677

[Steve Chryssos]

Here you go. Unlike any automatic in the world of hot rodding! I'm thrilled to have the first such system. Listen carefully for the engine note as I accelerate and decelerate. You can hear the engine braking and at times, you can even hear the damper springs of the "clutch" that is hiding in my MuscleDrive torque converter. Lock up is presently set to engage in 2nd, 3rd, 4th. It can also be engaged 3rd, 4th only; or 4th only. But that's no fun. Watch the speedo, too. 12 o' clock is 80mph. So the car is regularly doing about 70mph on a 30mph back road. Yay!

Direct drive baby. Crank those speakers!

4L65RR Manumatic System Video (http://twistmachine.com/shopping/index.php?main_page=page&id=2&chapter=0)

Technology and exclusivity has it's price. The RR system is priced at $6455 for early style trans cases (pre-97) and $6495 for late style (97-up) cases. As stated, the system includes:
-Bowler 4L65E-550 trans with engine braking option
-Twist Machine MuscleDrive Torque Converter
-HGM Compushift Transmission Controller
-HGM Display
-Twist/Bowler Advanced TCU Calibration
-Twist Machine Shrifter® Paddle Shifter
Please feel free to ask any questions or post any comments--positive or otherwise. And thanks for looking
/Steevo

[rjsjea]

Does Bowler have a Bellhousing to put one of these behind a 6.1Hemi??

I know Keisler has a bell, or I can have an adapter made....just curious cuz Bowler has done the 4l60 behind a small block mopar

[GetMore]

Some questions:

How soon could I pick up one of these packages?
Is there a bank within 10 minutes of your shop?
Would you mind if I parked my car in your shop for a few hours or maybe a couple days?
Are you on good terms with the police in your area?


Actually, I'll save my serious questions for when I visit to check out the whole Shrifter thing in person.

Come to think of it, what would the preferred transmission cooling system be for this setup?

[vanzuuk1]

Sigh. I still wish I had gone with the shrifter over the five speed,this confirms it.

[Steve Chryssos]

Does Bowler have a Bellhousing to put one of these behind a 6.1Hemi??

I know Keisler has a bell, or I can have an adapter made....just curious cuz Bowler has done the 4l60 behind a small block mopar

Keisler says they won't sell their bell separately, but I think I can get one. And Pro Torque can definitely handle the converter. Bell adapter plates are easy, but the conversion bell should provide a much cleaner install, so let's pursue the Keisler route first. PM me for details.


Some questions:

How soon could I pick up one of these packages?
Is there a bank within 10 minutes of your shop?
Would you mind if I parked my car in your shop for a few hours or maybe a couple days?
Are you on good terms with the police in your area?


Actually, I'll save my serious questions for when I visit to check out the whole Shrifter thing in person.

Come to think of it, what would the preferred transmission cooling system be for this setup?

Call me to set up a test drive appointment. 24 hours notice will suffice. I can have an RR system delivered in 4 weeks from date of order. We can help with the install. The police love us. They're at our shop all the time. And their jurisdiction ends 100 feet away from our shop. As for cooling, I run a basic 11"x4" plate cooler. Street temps are around 180 degrees F. Temps on the Road Atlanta course never exceeded 220 degrees F with the Redline Oil D4 synthetic rated to over 400 degrees F.

Patterson, NY is 129 miles away from our shop in Quogue, NY if you go around. 2.5 hours. Or much less if you hop the Bridgeport, CT to Port Jefferson, NY ferry

[Steve Chryssos]

Sigh. I still wish I had gone with the shrifter over the five speed,this confirms it.

Dirk,
Feel free to come borrow my car this weekend.

[Steve Chryssos]

Anyone notice the different driving style from the video?

Automatic: Brake, Turn, Apex, Throttle
Manual: Brake, Downshift, Turn, Apex, Throttle
RR: Brake, Turn, Apex/Downshift, Throttle

If not, try watching the video again.

[Damn True]

Keisler says they won't sell their bell separately, but I think I can get one. And Pro Torque can definitely handle the converter. Bell adapter plates are easy, but the conversion bell should provide a much cleaner install, so let's pursue the Keisler route first. PM me for details.


Failing that give Advance Adapters a call. They really have some astounding capabilities.

[GetMore]

Just to verify/clarify, you just run the plate cooler, you don't run through the radiator as well, right?
Are the dimensions really 11x4, or 11x24? (I know almost nothing about cooling requirements except what I've seen on other vehicles or read in advertisements.)

Thanks!

[Steve Chryssos]

11"x4.5"x1.5" B&M Supercooler part number 70625 or similar.

[Steve Chryssos]

The transmission pan is also slightly deeper than stock for extra capacity. Cooling is not an issue. We do not use or recommend an in radiator cooler.

[MarkB]

We have tried to work with Kiesler on the bellhousings, without much luck. I have not seen enough demand to make our own, so we just use and adapter plate that works out well. We have done several engine combinations from flatheads to Hemis with adapter plates with the 4L65E & 4L80E transmissions. Just about any combination can be done.
As far as the cooler, as Steve said, we do not recommend running through the radiator. Just run as large of a plate design cooler that you can get.

Mark
Bowler Performance Transmissions
www.bowlertransmissions.com

[Bruning Auto Design]

We have tried to work with Kiesler on the bellhousings, without much luck. I have not seen enough demand to make our own, so we just use and adapter plate that works out well. We have done several engine combinations from flatheads to Hemis with adapter plates with the 4L65E & 4L80E transmissions. Just about any combination can be done.
As far as the cooler, as Steve said, we do not recommend running through the radiator. Just run as large of a plate design cooler that you can get.

Mark
Bowler Performance Transmissions
www.bowlertransmissions.com (http://www.bowlertransmissions.com)

I wonder if Quicktime could help you out with this???

[Turbo67camaro]

Sweet system.

If someone wanted to get to such a system in 2 phases (for short term cost reasons), what would be the recommended way of getting there ?

For example, what would be a good 2 step path to get into a good 4L6??? transmission today, controlling it with a reasonably inexpensive system now, and then down the road upgrade to the more expensive computer and paddle shifter later, without major changes to the transmission ?

I was leaning 5 speed manual, but my wife would be happier with an automatic.

[Steve Chryssos]

Controller: I have one used PCS controller available for $650. That includes a brand new harness as well as a TCU that is checked by the manufacturer and upgraded to the latest software. It came out of our blue development car when we switched over to Compushift. Other than that, all of the transmission controllers sell for around $1000.
Paddle Shifter: The paddle shifter can be added later at any time.
Converter: Converters are about $700 to $800 depending on your application. I would not cut corners here.
Transmission: This is where the greatest expense lies--especially with a "handle" like Turbo67Camaro. How much torque are you making? What rear tires are you using (i.e. traction). What is your intended usage? (Again, traction plays an important role in transmission selection.)
Wife: I can't help there. Once you drive and enjoy a proper manumatic, your wife will not get the chance to borrow the car at all. :)

[Turbo67camaro]

Torque: if my project budget stays under control, I'm aiming for about 550hp at the crank (single turbo, modest boost) off a .040 over 327. If my budget gets out of control, then much less HP in version 1 of this build.

Use: mostly a weekend driver. Occasional drag strip. Occasional autocross.

Rear tires: will probably be 285mm. Leaning Nitto 555's but choice not made yet.

I may buy that controller from you if noone beats me to it. I have to figure out what trans to guy with, and what all the associated costs are going to be. If total costs get out of control, I may downgrade to a non-electric solution.

At this point, I'm looking at how much I can get a good 4L80E or 4L65E for. If they're too expensive, then I'll look at a 4L60E, 2004R, and then a 700R4 in that order.

My builder recommends a local shop that supposedly can build a 600 ft lb 700R4 for $1,000. Seems optimistic to me. Now, if they can supply a tuff remanufactured 4L80E or 4L65E for under $2K, I might go for that.

I'm wrestling with the differences in gear ratio at this point. The 1st gear of the 4L65E seems too wide, and the 1st gear of the 4L80E seems too close. My rear is a 3.42 12 bolt. I'm leaning towards the gear ratios of the 4L80E being better for my application with the added torque of a boosted application. My motor is cammed for low rpm torque, with boost torque taking over beyond low rpm. Overall, I like the gear ratios of the 2004R the best. Considering they've been used a lot in turbo Buicks, the 2004R might not be a bad choice.

Technically, I want a 6L80 transmission, but that is guaranteed to break the bank :drive2: .

P.S. I've driven a manumatic car - an Audi 6 speed S tronic - and life was good. I almost bought it, but then I decided to finish this project car instead.

[Steve Chryssos]

Lots to digest here.
The 1-2 gear spread on a 4L60E (and 700R4) is perfect with a 3.42. But a 3.42 can be a little low (numerically) for overdrive and a 25.5" tire. Cam and converter selection becomes critical to avoid lugging in overdrive. Fuel injection or a finely tuned carburetor helps as well.

The 200 has a great 1-2 split, but the .67 overdrive will exaggerate the lugging issue. I personally prefer the 200 over the 700, but consider swapping rear gears down the line if lugging (at around 45-60 mph is a problem. Swapping gears after finishing a project is normal.

Your tire selection and intended usage will help cushion your transmission choice. 550Ft-Lb torque capacity on the street with NT555's is different than 550 Ft-Lbs on slicks at the drags every weekend. Bowler rates their transmissions for worst case scenario.

A stock but fresh 4L80E with shift kit can handle 550Ft-Lbs of torque out of the box, If you find a good core at the right price, an '80 can actually serve as a budget solution. '80's, like TH400's, seem to take a little longer to complete shifts. And the engine braking feature is not yet available. Hence the high dollar 4L65RR. Quick, reliable, and with engine braking.

A $1000 700R4 will lack the hard parts necessary to handle 600Ft-Lbs. In fact, it will probably fail at 250 Ft-Lbs. Honest torque capacity costs money.

Brain overload. I'll re-read this tomorrow to see if I missed anything.
Thanks for looking

[Turbo67camaro]

More info:

Car will be fuel injected, and use a tire diameter of about 27.3 to 28 inches (18"s w/ 40 or 45 aspect).

I doubt I'll have a overdrive lugging problem with fuel injection and the mild turbo profile Isky cam.

Cam profile (Isky Turbo-Cycle 201-TA):

Cam lift .290 (intake) .267 (exhaust)
Valve lift .435 (intake) .400 (exhaust)
Duration 262 (intake) 250 (exhaust)
050 Dur. 208 (intake) 194 (exhaust)
Lobe Center 114 (intake) 112.5 (exhaust)

...not taking into account I'm using 1.6 roller rockers. Isky describes it as a low end torque, economy turbo profile cam.

Decisions, decisions...

Thanks for the feedback.

Mike

[Steve Chryssos]

That's a great combination. You have your act together. I would probably not worry too much about gear splits. Make reliability and budget higher priorities. Some examples of 4L65RR usage (3.06:1, 1.63:1, 1:1, .7:1, 3.73, 25.5" dia rear tire, 6500 rpm redline):
-On Road Atlanta, I only used 2nd and 3rd gear around the entire track.
-At the drags, I frequently launch in 1st gear, then quickly tap up to 2nd gear to reduce wheel spin, then run thru the light at the top of 3rd gear.
-On the street, I only use overdrive at regular highway speeds.

I think that a recap to yor original question might be as follows.
-There is no magic wand to make a true 550 Ft-Lb rated transmission on the cheap. 200, 700, '60, or '80, that torque capacity costs money.
-A good converter can make all the difference between the soggy performance that automatics are famous for, and the efficient performance expected from a pro-touring automatic.
-If you go electronic, you will need a computer. If you go that route, you will need to zero out the expense against greater tuning capability and the added reliability that follows. Used computers exist. Their function can almost always be verified, but beware of used harnesses.
-If you go electronic, the paddle shifter can be added at a later time.
-If you go Compushift, the on board display can be added at a later time.

Good post.

[1969CamaroRS]

How much is the on-board display (LCD tuner)?

[Steve Chryssos]

On its own the display is priced at $235. It allows you to adjust transmission parameters such as line pressure, shift timing, lock up control, mode selection, and vehicle specs. It also uses the built in g-meter to display some cool data such as simulated rear wheel horsepower and positive/negative acceleration. There is a data logger, stop watch and a dozen different display types, one of which displays gear selection in automatic and paddle shifter mode. In auto mode it shows, 1, 2, 3, 4. In paddle shift mode, it shows S1, S2, S3, S4. That's a lot of power for $235. And you never have to plug in a laptop. Which means you never have a laptop sliding across the passenger seat and you never have to take your eyes off the road.

Without the display, tuning (line pressure and shift timing) is accomplished by way of screws on the side of the TCU. With or without the display, we provide a calibration on every TCU before it ships.

[neki67]

*****, I wanna upgrade . . . .

[1969CamaroRS]

Sounds like a great system.

[Steve Chryssos]

Thanks. Works great and lots of fun. We're proud of how far things have come.


*****, I wanna upgrade . . . .

With all of the current systems at more than $1000, you can probably sell your existing TCI computer for close to retail--probably around $600. But you need to carefully cut and label the old harness out carefully since replacement harnesses are not available. Let me know if I can help.

[GetMore]

I've got a couple questions:

How do you switch between manual and automatic modes?
Do you need (or should you have) a shifter with 7 positions, or just 4 (or 5)? (PRN4321 vs PRNDS)


Oh, and can I trade in my unused 700-R4 and converter? ;)

[Turbo67camaro]

I've decided to go with a 4L80E solution with computer control.

I'll make up some up the weight gain with an aluminum drive shaft.

The first gear won't be optimum for out of the hole performance w/ 3.42 rear, but since my motor is cammed for low end torque and will use a turbo, it won't be a slouch either. With a 6000 rpm redline, 3rd gear should go to 145 mph, so I can finish the 1/4 before needing 4th.

Added bonus: the 2.48 1st might keep my wife from snapping the rear end :yeah: !

For autocross and road racing, the 2.48 1st gear with 3.42 rear may prove a useful combination. If I went with a 4L60E, the 3.06 1st gear w/ 3.42 rear may be too wide to be useful, especially with a turbo motor that makes power at a lower RPM.

For highway overdrive, the wider .75 OD 4th should pair well with my 3.42 rear. With an EFI motor cammed for low RPM torque, I may sacrifice gas mileage slightly and unnecessarily compared to the .70 or .67 ratio of other trannys, but I'll get a little insurance against lugging. I should be able to plod along well at legal speed even up moderate hills. 65mph should be 1994 rpm in 4th. Maybe I'll get lucky and the RPMs will be in the sweet spot for MPG.

If money were no object, I'd get upgraded gears in the 4L80E (2.75 1st, 1.57 2nd), but I'll probably justify that money elsewhere.

Now, to figure out what torque converter and stall speed, and where to get that 4L80E.

In short, for about the same price as a really well built 700R4 or 2004R, I can get into a electronic solution. However, I get more control, more reliability, more consistency and safety at the drags, and ability to upgrade to a paddle shifter. Small price to pay for a little weight gain.

Picking a transmission has been the most difficult decision on building this car by far.

Steve, PM sent to find out what model that PCS computer is so I can research it.

Thanks for the help,

Mike

[neki67]

With all of the current systems at more than $1000, you can probably sell your existing TCI computer for close to retail--probably around $600. But you need to carefully cut and label the old harness out carefully since replacement harnesses are not available. Let me know if I can help.

Thanks Steve but unfortunately there isn't a high demand for these controllers around here (the Netherlands) so I probably have to buy myself one of these Asus EEE's and mount that to the inside of my glove box . . . . .

Cheers,
René

[Steve Chryssos]

I've got a couple questions:

How do you switch between manual and automatic modes?
Do you need (or should you have) a shifter with 7 positions, or just 4 (or 5)? (PRN4321 vs PRNDS)

With Compushift, you just tap a paddle and paddle shift mode is enabled. It will disable anytime you move the mechanical lever (floor/column shifter) or kill the ignition. ....Same concept as new cars such as Porsche Tiptronic, etc. PCS and others use a separate toggle switch to enable disable paddle shift mode. Either way works fine.


Do you need (or should you have) a shifter with 7 positions, or just 4 (or 5)? (PRN4321 vs PRNDS) Stock shift pattern works. You really only need PRND or PRND3, but a stock three speed gate or four speed gate works. I've tried them all. With the 3 speed gate, you have overdrive(fourth), third, and second. One of our cars has a shifter out of a late model manumatic Jeep that only offers PRND+/-. All of your performance driving is done by way of the paddles so the shift gate doesn't matter. Simple is better. You no longer need a "reverse lock out....ratchet action...lift up...push down...slap your knee twice" shifter. For a Camaro, the stock "staple" aka horseshoe shifter is perfect. While not mandatory, add a 4 speed gate kit from Shiftworks and your done.


Oh, and can I trade in my unused 700-R4 and converter? ;)

Nuh uh.

[Steve Chryssos]

I've decided to go with a 4L80E solution with computer control.
Steve, PM sent to find out what model that PCS computer is so I can research it.
Thanks for the help,
Mike

Some of these expectations will change after some installation and drive time. I'll post my experiences. Let me know down the line if you agree or disagree.


I'll make up some up the weight gain with an aluminum drive shaft.
The weight stigma is a bit overblown. We're talking about 40 lbs located at bottom middle of the car. Compared with the big gains in reliability, the weight difference is easily negated.


The first gear won't be optimum for out of the hole performance w/ 3.42 rear, but since my motor is cammed for low end torque and will use a turbo, it won't be a slouch either. With a 6000 rpm redline, 3rd gear should go to 145 mph, so I can finish the 1/4 before needing 4th.

Added bonus: the 2.48 1st might keep my wife from snapping the rear end :yeah: !

You'll probably be traction limited anyway. We all are. But if that's the case, you won't snap parts.


For autocross and road racing, the 2.48 1st gear with 3.42 rear may prove a useful combination. If I went with a 4L60E, the 3.06 1st gear w/ 3.42 rear may be too wide to be useful, especially with a turbo motor that makes power at a lower RPM.
Yeah, I don't make full autocross runs in 1st gear (3.06 x 3.70). Slows the car up too much. You might get away with it. Most courses, I hit the beams in 1st, then run the rest of the course in 2nd. 3.42 gears don't work very well for autocross, so plan on airing the rear tires up.


For highway overdrive, the wider .75 OD 4th should pair well with my 3.42 rear. With an EFI motor cammed for low RPM torque, I may sacrifice gas mileage slightly and unnecessarily compared to the .70 or .67 ratio of other trannys, but I'll get a little insurance against lugging. I should be able to plod along well at legal speed even up moderate hills. 65mph should be 1994 rpm in 4th. Maybe I'll get lucky and the RPMs will be in the sweet spot for MPG.
You're right. Too many people gear their cars for excessively low cruise rpm. Modern OE transmissions are geared for one thing only: To satisfy CAFE standardized testing. If you're not careful, you'll be driving down the road at idle or close to it. We care about gas mileage also, but the pendulum between performance and economy sits closer to the middle. Give up 200-300 rpm to get the engine right at the bottom of the powerband.


If money were no object, I'd get upgraded gears in the 4L80E (2.75 1st, 1.57 2nd), but I'll probably justify that money elsewhere. That would be slick, but in a perfect world, I would keep the 2.48 if possible and switch to 3.70 final. Remember that we have a semi viscous coupling and computer control, so gear splits are not as critical as with a manual trans. We compensate by electronically controlling shift time. Unlike a clutch, the converter absorbs most of the shock between gears. Lock up and shift time are configurable. That's not to belittle the importance of effective gear splits with respect to engine powerband--just telling you not to worry about huge, between gear rpm spikes and dips.


Now, to figure out what torque converter and stall speed, and where to get that 4L80E.
In short, for about the same price as a really well built 700R4 or 2004R, I can get into a electronic solution. However, I get more control, more reliability, more consistency and safety at the drags, and ability to upgrade to a paddle shifter. Small price to pay for a little weight gain.
Picking a transmission has been the most difficult decision on building this car by far.
You're right there as far as understanding this stuff.

[Steve Chryssos]

Thanks for all the great questions.

[1969CamaroRS]

I am not sure if you mentioned this in this thread or not but what is the typical pricing on your Muscle drive torque converters?

I am trying to figure out pricing so I can budget for building my own 4L80E and adding in your TCU + Paddle shifter + Torque converter.


Thanks!

[Steve Chryssos]

Based on the engine combination in your sig, your converter price is $797.
Thank you for your interest
/Steve

[TitoJones]

Alright boys and girls, I'm here to say something I never thought possible;

The Twist Machine RR4L65 is like having a manual when you want one, and an auto when you don't.

I went up to NY last week for some R&R and got to drive first hand the 68 Camaro that is the R&D car for Twist.
The trans is epic. it shifts very crisp (not firm or harsh) and engine brakes like a manual does. I love everything about it and I'm a die hard T-56 six speed guy by nature. I know I will be wishing I had one of these the first time I get stuck in traffic again with my six speed. Can't say enough positive things about the way this thing feels. It is so hard to describe, you just need to go for a spin in one.

Great work by Twist Machine. They are WAY ahead of the game in the automatic world. I just wish the rest of us would catch up to your advancements.

Tyler

[70 Chevelle]

Is it possible to have the system ordered with a one piece case 4l60e

[MarkB]

Tyler glad to hear that you got to take a ride in Steve's Camaro, and that you are pleased with the results. We are slowly getting the attention of many manual transmission lovers. We are constantly improving the automatics and will continue to stay ahead of the game by offering packages like the new 4L60RR. We have more cool items heading your way!

Tony to answer your question, yes we can build the 4L60E as a removeable bell style or a non-removeable bell. Just let Steve or us know and we can get you taken care of.

[Steve Chryssos]

Thanks Tyler.

[markd]

Steve:

I just sent you a PM. I am interested in purchasing a 4L80E with the Twist Machine Shrifter® Paddle Shifter.

[Steve Chryssos]

Got it. I'll work up a quote this weekend.

[1969CamaroRS]

How far off is the 4L80RR package?


Thanks!