Six piston or Four piston Wilwoods?

[cgrady]

Hi everyone, I'm over from Team Camaro.

You guys are the experts. I ordered the 12.2" Dynalites 4 piston front/rear. Now after reading 100's of posts and my head about ready to explode, I'm having second thoughts.

Should I go with the 6 piston Superlite on the 12.2 for the front for an additional $400? (Funny the reason I went with Wilwood over Baer was because of $$$$)

Is it that big a difference? I will be street driving this car, but maybe some day Ill take it to a track, for fun, a couple times.

Thx for your imput. Chad

[ProdigyCustoms]

I think the (6) piston 12.2" set up is the coolest thing to hit the brake market in a while. No 17" wheel clearance issues, and all the bling and increased stopping power.

We can upgrade the calipers. If it were me I would.

Also, I am buying a bulk of those calipers and will be doing a special on the (6) piston upgrade in a couple days.

[silver69camaro]

I'd do it. $400 isn't too bad, and if you are going to splurge on something, do it on brakes. You just can't go wrong.

[hotrodf1]

Another option: you could put you a DIY style Hydroboost on there and get all the stopping power you need. Unless you just "want" 6 pistons. You don't have to buy the high dollar kit if you don't mind doing a little fab work to the bracket. I put Hydroboost on my ride for about $135 or so. $75 for the J/Y unit, $40 for new lines from a 81 Toronado Diesel, free PS pump with late model O-ring style pressure outlet, plus some incidentals. I also added a late model steering box with O-ring connections (quick ratio).

I don't know Wilwood's line in and out, but I would verify that total piston area actually increases with the 6 piston over the 4. If not, then I don't think it would be worth it to upgrade for the extra $ involved.

[Apogee]

...I don't know Wilwood's line in and out, but I would verify that total piston area actually increases with the 6 piston over the 4. If not, then I don't think it would be worth it to upgrade for the extra $ involved.

FYI, most big-brake kits increase the number of pistons and reduce the piston area to improve driver feedback through better force distribution across a larger pad...hence the multiple pistons. Aside from shrouding a larger portion of the rotor (especially in a 12.2" application), the larger pad volume will take more punishment and last longer than a comparable setup with smaller pads.

If you don't upgrade to the 6-pistons now, you'll probably regret it later...otherwise you wouldn't be asking the question. I'd take Frank up on his deal when it becomes available.

Tobin
KORE3

[cgrady]

Talked to Mike at Wilwood. He didnt think the 6 piston would necessarily stop any better then the 4 piston, it will stop the same for longer. (Hard aggressive driving and ocasional lap or 2 around a track)

He was very helpful and honest. Wasnt trying to upsale. Wasnt saying these are track brakes for 1/2 hour runs, just that they would be fine for more than pure street driving.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I agree, but they look cool! The Dynalite (4) piston caliper is plenty capable of the job.

[RSX302]

Ok...this is one area that unfortunately I spent way too much time in.

You would think the SL6 6 piston calipers have more piston area. Not true with this caliper. The SL4 caliper is the same casting and same pad as the SL6 except 2 less and bigger pistons. (SL6 8.05 piston area vs SL4 10.36)One reason Wilwood went to this 6 piston is to reduce pad taper. (why they used less piston area is beyond me. needs a lot of pressure to make them work) space avail issues?
I found this out the hard way.:pat:

If you are using the hydroboost system then I doubt it will be an issue. With straight manual master cylinders, I needed to run 3/4" and an 8:1 pedal ratio to make it work. (1200+ psi) Don't try to stop fast with cold BP20's. Need to heat them up first. (3600# car) Will push 100#'s on the pedal easy and will not lock-up wheels. Once hot (500+ degs) not as much pedal pressure is required. ~50-75#'s to lock-up wheels.

I will be selling my SL6's here very soon and jumping up to the GNIII's 6 piston. 1 1/4" longer pad with a lot more piston area. (10.90) mega clamping force. Used in road race application. Not a whole lot more then SL4's but gives more pad area which I like. I will also still use my 3/4" MC set-up and hopefully get back to a reasonable 6:1 pedal ratio as well as trying the BP-10 pads instead. They have a little better low temp friction then the BP20's. I'll step up to the 'E' Pads for the track. I like to go thru the windshield when I hit the brakes.

Lesson learned: SL4 is better then the SL6 with stopping power (clamping force with the same inlet pressure). They can trash the SL6's for all I'm concerned..Sorry Wilwood

[hotrodf1]

Ok...this is one area that unfortunately I spent way too much time in.

You would think the SL6 6 piston calipers have more piston area. Not true with this caliper. The SL4 caliper is the same casting and same pad as the SL6 except 2 less and bigger pistons. (SL6 8.05 piston area vs SL4 10.36)One reason Wilwood went to this 6 piston is to reduce pad taper. (why they used less piston area is beyond me. needs a lot of pressure to make them work) space avail issues?
I found this out the hard way.:pat:

If you are using the hydroboost system then I doubt it will be an issue. With straight manual master cylinders, I needed to run 3/4" and an 8:1 pedal ratio to make it work. (1200+ psi) Don't try to stop fast with cold BP20's. Need to heat them up first. (3600# car) Will push 100#'s on the pedal easy and will not lock-up wheels. Once hot (500+ degs) not as much pedal pressure is required. ~50-75#'s to lock-up wheels.

I will be selling my SL6's here very soon and jumping up to the GNIII's 6 piston. 1 1/4" longer pad with a lot more piston area. (10.90) mega clamping force. Used in road race application. Not a whole lot more then SL4's but gives more pad area which I like. I will also still use my 3/4" MC set-up and hopefully get back to a reasonable 6:1 pedal ratio as well as trying the BP-10 pads instead. They have a little better low temp friction then the BP20's. I'll step up to the 'E' Pads for the track. I like to go thru the windshield when I hit the brakes.

Lesson learned: SL4 is better then the SL6 with stopping power (clamping force with the same inlet pressure). They can trash the SL6's for all I'm concerned..Sorry Wilwood

You confirmed my suspicion. . . .

[silver69camaro]

Ron, my experience has been different. My car is equipped with Wilwoods SL6 on a 14" rotor up front and SL4s with 13" rotors in back. BP20's all around, just like yours.

I'm also using Wilwood's balance bar system, which has a 6.25:1 pedal ratio. For the masters, I'm using 3/4" for the fronts and 13/16" for the rear. Overall balance of the car is near 50/50 and 3400lbs with driver and full fluids.

While I wish the pedal ratio was closer to 7:1, brake feel, force, and modulation is excellent. I can hold the brakes VERY close to lockup conditions. But I do agree with the heat aspect, which is why I'm going to switch to a lower temp pad later, and possibly, a smaller rotor.

But I do like a stiffer pedal in most cases. Just my opinion I suppose.

[JustinB]

Im lost! I am getting ready to order brakes for my 69 and every time I read a post and change my mind on what set up to run. My issue is that I have never really heard anything all the great about the Wilwood 12.2" 4 pistons setup except it cheaper than Baer, it looks nice, and looks good on a stat sheet for a car. Now by the time you upgrade the Wilwood kits to include the 6 piston caliper and 13" drilled/slotted rotor the cost is up and you still need to worry about the performance. Am I missing something here?

[silver69camaro]

If your brake system is assisted, you shouldn't have any problems with whatever kit you buy. Manual brakes is where opinions differ.

[JustinB]

By assisted, are you referring to a hydro-boost setup or will these perform well with a normal brake booster/master set up.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Now by the time you upgrade the Wilwood kits to include the 6 piston caliper and 13" drilled/slotted rotor the cost is up and you still need to worry about the performance. Am I missing something here?

Now I am confused? What performance concerns are there with 13" (6) piston stuff? Tire and suspension performance are more of a concern, because there is cetainly enough brake there to challenge the tires / suspension.

For that matter, on a street car, the 12.2" set up is more then enough brake. We probably have more experiance with these brakes then anyone here except possibly Matt = Art Morrison, and performance concerns have never been a issue.

I do not think you can buy a 13" / 12" PBR Baer track kit in a Total Car type package for the same price as a our 13" / 12.2" (6) piston / (4) piston Total Car Brake Package (about $3000). And there both great brakes. But bling for the buck, Wilwood wins big! And also, the internal e brake system on Wilwood is far supieror to the caliper e brake on Baer and does not have the Clearance issues Baer has in mini tub applications.

I personally think our Total Car Brake Package with the 12.2" / 12.2", (6) piston / (4) piston, in a Total Car Brake package for $2050 is super hard to beat in both braking and bling.

[RSX302]

For the masters, I'm using 3/4" for the fronts and 13/16" for the rear. Overall balance of the car is near 50/50 and 3400lbs with driver and full fluids.

While I wish the pedal ratio was closer to 7:1, brake feel, force, and modulation is excellent. I can hold the brakes VERY close to lockup conditions. But I do agree with the heat aspect, which is why I'm going to switch to a lower temp pad later, and possibly, a smaller rotor.

But I do like a stiffer pedal in most cases. Just my opinion I suppose.

I ran the clamping force numbers and the SL6's with the 3/4" MC is very close to the SL4's with the 13/16" MC. It probably works well with the 50/50 wieght dist you have. If you want more up front, change over to the SL4's. Or for all around, go up in the pedal ratio. I would like to keep the pedal ratio lower personally.

[RSX302]

Now I am confused? What performance concerns are there with 13" (6) piston stuff? Tire and suspension performance are more of a concern, because there is cetainly enough brake there to challenge the tires / suspension.

For that matter, on a street car, the 12.2" set up is more then enough brake. We probably have more experiance with these brakes then anyone here except possibly Matt = Art Morrison, and performance concerns have never been a issue.

I do not think you can buy a 13" / 12" PBR Baer track kit in a Total Car type package for the same price as a our 13" / 12.2" (6) piston / (4) piston Total Car Brake Package (about $3000). And there both great brakes. But bling for the buck, Wilwood wins big! And also, the internal e brake system on Wilwood is far supieror to the caliper e brake on Baer and does not have the Clearance issues Baer has in mini tub applications.

I personally think our Total Car Brake Package with the 12.2" / 12.2", (6) piston / (4) piston, in a Total Car Brake package for $2050 is super hard to beat in both braking and bling.

I'm running 18x10's in the front with 275's. Lesser size wheels will most likely slip sooner.

I live right next to Wilwood and took a visited. I had practically everybody in the parking lot. From the main man to the engineers. I did everything they said and still the same outcome. I finally took matters into my own hands and started a major investigation. My findings are as I write.

I'm not saying Wilwoods shuff is bad, but I think people are getting the wrong impression that the SL6 being better. In my opinion, if you want a true 6 piston from Wilwood, step up to the GNII.

[cgrady]

Thx for everyone's imput...I know Baer vs Wilwood is a touchy subject.

ronracer, I thx you for the explanation on 6 vs 4 in your experience. I think Mike at Wilwood was upfront about this. Just difference in opinion on if 6 will hold up longer, it appears. I dont think Ill ever have the type of car you do or the track time (sweet car by the way).

Im looking for a good upgrade from my manual 4 wheel drums with 14x5 wheels. I bought 17x8 F/ 17x9 R and now looking for brakes that wont cost me $3000 (buying trans, rearend, engine, etc. I cant do the $1000-$2000 upgrade on every thing I get:(), but still work to my expectations.

It appears some say 6 piston wont be better, others say it is worth the $400. I know there wont be 100% agreement on brakes from reading tons of "Which is better brake" posts.

Ill let you know what I do and repost when I try them out.

[silver69camaro]

I'm not saying Wilwoods shuff is bad, but I think people are getting the wrong impression that the SL6 being better.

I agree, and I think that's the key here. But, Wilwood (to my knowledge) does not market the SL6 caliper as a true race caliper - they have others that fill that need. Does it work well? Sure it does, but it's more for a bling factor.

I'd love to try the W6 calipers. Lots of piston area and uses 6617 pads.

[RSX302]

I agree, and I think that's the key here. But, Wilwood (to my knowledge) does not market the SL6 caliper as a true race caliper - they have others that fill that need. Does it work well? Sure it does, but it's more for a bling factor.

I'd love to try the W6 calipers. Lots of piston area and uses 6617 pads.

Yes I agree..the SL's are more a high end street caliper. If I were able to go back in time, I would have gotten the SL4's instead. That's why I think the SL6's should be dropped from the line-up. Go to one of the better 6 pistons. The W6 only shows 2 pads? (BP10 & BP20's). would still be better then the SL6's as long as you get the 1.75/1.38/1.38. The 1.62/1.12/1.12 is the same as the SL6 except with more pad area. If your going there..Get it all! and throw the 1.62's on the back...(in a 50/50 dist of course)

I'm going to the GNIII's because its a direct bolt on to my 3.5" mounted SL6's. Same piston area as the W6. It also has all the Pads. Not as purdy however

[RSX302]

Thx for everyone's imput...I know Baer vs Wilwood is a touchy subject.

ronracer, I thx you for the explanation on 6 vs 4 in your experience. I think Mike at Wilwood was upfront about this. Just difference in opinion on if 6 will hold up longer, it appears. I dont think Ill ever have the type of car you do or the track time (sweet car by the way).

Im looking for a good upgrade from my manual 4 wheel drums with 14x5 wheels. I bought 17x8 F/ 17x9 R and now looking for brakes that wont cost me $3000 (buying trans, rearend, engine, etc. I cant do the $1000-$2000 upgrade on every thing I get:(), but still work to my expectations.

It appears some say 6 piston wont be better, others say it is worth the $400. I know there wont be 100% agreement on brakes from reading tons of "Which is better brake" posts.

Ill let you know what I do and repost when I try them out.

I think the SL4's would be the better upgrade for your ride. If you are bent on the SL6's. I would be more then happy to sell you mine for half the price of new ones. Comes with Q pads, Bp20's and E pads.

Let me know if your intrested.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I think the SL4's would be the better upgrade for your ride. If you are bent on the SL6's. I would be more then happy to sell you mine for half the price of new ones. Comes with Q pads, Bp20's and E pads.

Let me know if your intrested.

They wont work, it takes a modified 6 piston for the 12.2" set up called a Dnyapro. Sightly different, yet the same.

Ron, I have been following you post and avoided response to avoid argument. I have listened to all your facts, and believe you had some issues. Now I will give you some un refutable facts and examples of badd ass cars in our camp running six piston brakes and NO POWER assist.

Project Prodigy runs Wilwood 14" F (6) piston SL6 / 14" rear (4) piston SL4 and even with Monster 295 / 19s (F) and 345 / 20s (R) will stop on a dime and give 9 cents change! Project Prodigy runs Wilwoods 7/8 bore tandem master cylinder.

Parson II Much runs dual masters and balance bar with 14" (6) piston SL6 front and 12/2" Dynalight rear, and I dare you to try to stay in the seat when he gets on the brake!

Michael's Monte Carlo, Custom 13" (6) piston SL6 / 12.2" (4) piston Dynalite. Switched it from power brakes (vacuum issue) to a Wilwood manual 7/8 bore tandem. Big heavy car full of heavy stereo (probably damn near 4000 LBS) and stops excellent for a heavy car. Will certainly lock the brakes at will!

Project EmptyNest, I had a choice of any brake system I could ask for on this build,. Lisa is 5'4" and all 115 LBS of her, and I chose 14" (6) piston SL6 / 14" (4) piston SL4 with Wilwood 7/8" bore tandem master for her car. If I would have thought the little girl needed Hydroboost, I could have had one in a phone call.

Beyond that, I have sold MANY members her SL6 set ups in various varieties, all combinations of 13" / 14" (and now 12.2") SL6 front combined with 12'2" Dynalite or 13" and 14" SL4 rear. Not one of them as complained to me about their braking. Not one of them has joined in your complaints in this thread.

So while I am by no means saying your issue does not exist, nor am I trying to belittle your problems or opinions, I am feeling it is unfortunately a low percentage isolated incident.

Also, it is possible you track that car a lot more then most of us here. How much track time does that thing have?

[gsxrken]

Frank, I can tell you that I have had the same isues as Ron and have PM'd with him in the past to sort mine out. I have the SL6 on 12.9 rotors and forged 4 piston ones in the back on 11.9 rotors and have never liked the pedal effort. With the Q pads, I couldn't lock up my 245/275 tires and this is with stock power brakes. I went to E pads, still sucked and dusty, started juggling master cylinders, finally running a 15/16s from a later mustang IIRC, and with the E pads I can lock them up after a brief warm up. Now it's a matter of feel. With the long pedal travel, and PB, I now hate the feel of the brakes at the limit. I bought the twin side by side CNC unit (3/4 and 1") and a manual pedal and I'm going to run manual brakes to try to get the feel back. I think the 69 mustang manual pedal is like 6:1.

[ProdigyCustoms]

GSX, your brakes are power now? What kind of booster?

[parsonsj]

I'm using the SL6 calipers on II Much with a 14" front rotor. I've got 3/4" (front) and 13/16" masters with a balance bar.

It works great! I generate 1100 psi to the calipers no problem. The car stops right now. I do need to get some heat in them for optimum performance, but no complaints here.

jp

[ponchopwr70]

Here's my take on them. I have 13" 6 piston and 12" 4 piston with 7/8 manual master and 255,285 combo. My car stops really good. I did the hick way of measuring 60-0 with my buddy and it took 2.5 seconds. My brakes won't look up though (unless I adjust the prop valve to give more to the rears then the rears will). Pedal travel is a little long and I have to pump the brakes to get a hard pedal sometimes, like after a hard corner. Other wise they are good brakes and real good quality. My car is safer than it has ever been with these brakes.

[parsonsj]

I have to pump the brakes to get a hard pedal sometimes, like after a hard cornerThat's called "pad knockback". The hard corner deflects your rotor enough that it pushes the piston slightly back into the caliper. Next time you use the brakes, your first pump gets the piston back to the rotor. In my case, I traced this behavior to a bad wheel bearing. Replaced it... no more knockback.

jp

[gsxrken]

GSX, your brakes are power now? What kind of booster?

Yes they are, I have a rebuilt stock booster and a comp cams vacuum can that helps stores extra vacuum volume. The booster does work- I can develop around 1300 PSI at the bleeder screw using my brake gauge. That should be enough, and it sure is around town and for any normal driving, but it just doesn't have enough bite to make the tires howl on all out high speed stops. By the third hard stop, they are biting hard but the feel is just dead. They also don't heat up in synch, so when I think I have the prop valve dialed in for cold stops, it's a different story when they heat up and the rears lock up again.

Maybe I'm just nuts- the car does stop hard. But for 3k or so, I want linear, through the windshield brakes like my 930 Porsche has, and with enough feel that I can keep them from locking up.

[ProdigyCustoms]

LOL! Making your 1960s resto moded front engine 55 / 45 car stop like your 45 / 55 rear engine 930 factory race car is going to be a bit difficult! I have a customer with a 930 slant nose, were going to need to get up early in the morning to out perform that thing!

As for heating up in sync, I don't know what to say about that. Sounds like a track issue as I do not normally do enough repeated high speed stops on the street to ever get them warm.

[RSX302]

Frank (Prodigy)
The original question Clad posted was if he should go to the SL6’s. Nobody pointed out the fact that he couldn’t use the SL6’s on 12.2’s as you did,(good to point out by the way) but the information I posted merely states the difference I found between the SL4 and the SL6. If he was going to go to this caliper style, this is why I suggested the SL4’s over the SL6’s.

I have written this story before, but here it is again because I want people to be aware of what I had to do with the SL6 manual master set-up to work somewhat to my liking. I still want more brake, this is why I was thinking of going to the GNIII's.

I first had the 15/16” tandem because at the time I purchased the kit, (Front: 12.90 rotors, SL6’s w/Q pads Rear: Dynalite w/12.2 rotors) they didn’t have the 7/8” tandem yet. With this set-up and a 6:1 pedal ratio, I could barely stop the car. Downright scary! I then proceeded to change the pedal ratio to 8:1 with moderate results. I purchased BP20’s and this at least started to stop the car, but still far from what I felt was adequate.
Wilwood was struggling to understand what my problem was. The whole time they were telling me it should be working fine and I shouldn’t need to use the 8:1 pr. I took the car over to them and had one of the engineers drive it. Try as he might, no lock-up. After we faded the brakes, he suggested I go to the E-Pads. So off I went to buy pads. Put in the pads and it was better, but now I have dust to deal with as well as squeal for the street. Wilwood then told me that they came out with the new 7/8” tandem. This is when I decided to sit down and do the math and try to find a reason to my issue. After finding what I had written in this thread between the SL4 and SL6, I called Wilwood to confirm my findings. They agreed with me.

Although I purchased the 7/8” tandem, I bypassed and went right to the dual ¾”mc’s. This was the best result and I went back to the BP-20’s. Like a few others have said, you need to get heat in them to start getting optimal braking. Once the BP20's are at temp, I can lock-up the front wheels. Just don't expect to lock up or slow down fast when they are cold. Drag the brakes first!

Yes I do expect a lot out of my brakes as everybody should. I have driven cars with very good brakes and I know it’s a bad comparison to a 68 Camaro, (Track prepped Porsche 996, Porsche GT3, Sports 2000) but I say, if you can’t get them to lock up… something ain’t right. (without ABS of course)

[ponchopwr70]

I replaced the front wheel bearings and the rears are 2000 miles old. I think that the small bore master and small pistons and slight deflection of the rotors are whats causing it. Would a 2lb residual valve fix this?