Power steering too easy!

[speED]

67 Camaro, originally a 6 cylinder with power steering. After engine swap (454) steering became super easy. You can actually turn wheel with your pinky. Still using the 6 cyl. box but changed to a V8 pump. Would like to fix situation. Would also like to eventually switch to a quick ratio box. I'm looking for recommendations on fixing the current problem as well as possible quick ratio box swap and the potential problems (header clearance, etc.)

[TheMonkey]

research changing the caster.... more caster will change that sensation.

[TheMonkey]

when you put the new motor in, did the extra weight drop the front end some? if you change the rake where the front end goes down, positive caster approaches more vertical which will make steering easier.

did you get an alignment after the swap?

[vintageracer]

Another solution to increase steering effort if an alignment does not help is to enlarge very SLIGHTLY the hole in the back of the orifice that screws into the power steering pump high pressure side outlet or change the orifice with one from another PS pump with a larger pressure outlet hole. The easy way to measure the hole of the orifice is with a drill bit. We are talking a very slight increase in orifice diameter if you choose to drill your current orifice will increase the steering effort required to move the steering wheel. This increase in orifice diamter will reduce the high side line pressure to the steering box and thus reduce the amount of power assist provided by the steering box therefore increasing the effort needed to turn the steering wheel.

This is the "poor man's method" to change the amount of power assist provided by your PS system. Don't laugh, it works!

[speED]

The car has been re-aligned since the motor swap. There is actually extra caster because the car is partially set-up for drag racing. I forgot to mention that I even have a Grant steering wheel which is considerably smaller than the stock wheel, this should actually make it harder to steer. I do believe it is a pressure problem because the power steering fluid very slightly seeps out of the cap as if it is foaming. Any thoughts about the box or why my combo is actually doing this?

[69Bbird]

I have the same problem look at this tread. You can put a late model steering box in.
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34260

[Chad-1stGen]

I've read that there is a valve in the steering box that effects effort and can be adjusted but have no idea how or if true.

[David Pozzi]

Another solution to increase steering effort if an alignment does not help is to enlarge very SLIGHTLY the hole in the back of the orifice that screws into the power steering pump high pressure side outlet or change the orifice with one from another PS pump with a larger pressure outlet hole. The easy way to measure the hole of the orifice is with a drill bit. We are talking a very slight increase in orifice diameter if you choose to drill your current orifice will increase the steering effort required to move the steering wheel. This increase in orifice diamter will reduce the high side line pressure to the steering box and thus reduce the amount of power assist provided by the steering box therefore increasing the effort needed to turn the steering wheel.

This is the "poor man's method" to change the amount of power assist provided by your PS system. Don't laugh, it works!

My apologies to Vintageracer, but...
I don't agree with the above statement at all.
The orifice drill-out method is to increase system flow, not to increase effort. If you have trouble with the pump not "keeping up" then drilling will make the steering more responsive for autocrossing or racing, but tends to make the steering box more "nervous" acting at low speeds, especially if you go too far. I drilled mine out all the way long ago and it fixed the slow response time for autocross, but I later found out I didn't have to go so large. More flow equals more heat.

You could mess around trying to reduce pressure in the pump, but in the end you really want a late model box with high effort built-in. The torsion rod in the top of the box is stiffer allowing more effort before the valve is opened.

You can help driveability by increasing caster to as much positive as you can achieve, usually around +3 degrees, set .5 deg neg camber, set toe-in at 1/16".
We did this to my wife's 68 Camaro and it is much more steady on the road, even though it has a stock box.

Also take up any extra lash in the box by setting the steering straight ahead then turning the adjuster screw down until some resistance is felt. You want to take up lash without adding extra pre-load to the box, so don't over do it.
David

[el-camino]

the same problem in my wifes olds omega.
i install a steering-shock from MOOG and its great ! not to hard, but from the steering comes a good feedback
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2007/09/20070402_02-1.jpg

[MarkM66]

Get an ATS box.

[EFI69Cam]

My apologies to Vintageracer, but...
I don't agree with the above statement at all.
The orifice drill-out method is to increase system flow, not to increase effort. If you have trouble with the pump not "keeping up" then drilling will make the steering more responsive for autocrossing or racing, but tends to make the steering box more "nervous" acting at low speeds, especially if you go too far. I drilled mine out all the way long ago and it fixed the slow response time for autocross, but I later found out I didn't have to go so large. More flow equals more heat.

You could mess around trying to reduce pressure in the pump, but in the end you really want a late model box with high effort built-in. The torsion rod in the top of the box is stiffer allowing more effort before the valve is opened.

You can help driveability by increasing caster to as much positive as you can achieve, usually around +3 degrees, set .5 deg neg camber, set toe-in at 1/16".
We did this to my wife's 68 Camaro and it is much more steady on the road, even though it has a stock box.

Also take up any extra lash in the box by setting the steering straight ahead then turning the adjuster screw down until some resistance is felt. You want to take up lash without adding extra pre-load to the box, so don't over do it.
David

If you increase flow, don't you reduce pressure?

[69ratfed]

Flaming River 14-1 ratio. Had to shave a little of the mounting boss on the box. About 1/8'' clearence from header. I actually feel like I have control of car now.

[speED]

Thanks guys, I'll look into all your suggestions.

[MonzaRacer]

Well as for more positive caster making the steering feel tighter, uh no.
Been doing Alingments for the last 20 yrs and more positive caster will make the steering easier to turn but will allow the wheel to return much better.
As for the feel ,its in the box. I agree with one thing there is a fella who builds boxes, Lee is either his name or the name of the company.
As for specs give any car as much pos caster as you can, but leave an extra .5 degree on the right to compensate for the road crown.
Use as much negative camber (providing your suspension is setup already optimized for handling) as you can with out destroying your tires and the max that makes you fast but not out of control.
At autocrosses a friend of mine uses his Hitman aligning tool to give his car a set amount of toe out to optimize his turn in. Chews a **** load off the tires but makes his car handle great.
But he has to retoe in the car of it would really eat the tires off.
I have found that toein has to get moved around after installing new ,wider tires and wheels, changing weight and and such but I try to stick with the total max and min from stock specs.
Rarely a car fudges from the stock specs you may just have to use more or less dependent upon the other mods.
Now if you have changed a lot of parts (mainly control arms and subframes, but not spindles or tall ball joints) ask lots of questions and the designed in alignment specs they recommend.
Just some insight from my experiences.
But for my choice I would step up the gear box first.
Lee Abel
AFTERMARKET PERFORMANCE

[David Pozzi]

If you increase flow, don't you reduce pressure?

Not on a Saginaw pump, flow is controled by the orifice size and the tiny side bleed where the orifice section expands suddenly. This causes movement of the spool shaped valve just in from the outlet fitting. Movement of the flow valve uncovers the return port recycling the oil flow inside the pump.

The pressure is controled by the steel ball and spring inside the "spool" valve.
David

[David Pozzi]

I wonder what changed between the 6 and the big block?
With more engine weight, the car would sit lower and it would probably gain neg camber, with the front lower than the rear, some positive caster would disappear. Did you have the car re-aligned after the engine install?
Anything else different?
David

[speED]

Dave,

Yes car was re-aligned after swap. 3 degrees positive caster, 1/4 negative camber, 1/16" toe. Besides the engine a new pump was installed. Definetly feel it is a pressure problem, not alignment. No exageration when I say you can turn the wheel with your pinky (this is while in park), when driving a cross breeze through the window probably could steer the car if I was not holding on to the wheel. My set-up would actually be perfect for those guys with trucks and oversized tires.

ED

[speED]

69 Bbird,

I looked at the past post, what did you decide to do in the end???

ED

[TheMonkey]

Well as for more positive caster making the steering feel tighter, uh no.
Been doing Alingments for the last 20 yrs and more positive caster will make the steering easier to turn but will allow the wheel to return much better....

sarcasm aside, i think it's important to distinguish low speed steering effort & high speed steering effort. i agree with Lee that additional caster will not noticably increase steering effort, but that's only true at high speeds. at low speeds, or parking lot, it certainly increases effort. when you said 'steer with your pinky' i ASSumed it was low speeds. (dangit.... i inserted sarcasm... :box2:). i would also think that pump/box setup has a bigger effect on effort than alignment. the fact that you swapped pump, i think you're on the right track.

take a look at Chip Woyner for getting your box rebuilt: http://www.powersteering.com/

[EFI69Cam]

Not on a Saginaw pump, flow is controled by the orifice size and the tiny side bleed where the orifice section expands suddenly. This causes movement of the spool shaped valve just in from the outlet fitting. Movement of the flow valve uncovers the return port recycling the oil flow inside the pump.

The pressure is controled by the steel ball and spring inside the "spool" valve.
David

Thanks for the clarification.:cheers:

[speED]

take a look at Chip Woyner for getting your box rebuilt: http://www.powersteering.com/[/quote]


Thank you for the link. Hoping there is a cheap solution for now as I prepare for a fast ratio upgrade.

[69Bbird]

I think I'm going to get a late model box.

[David Pozzi]

The site sponsor ATS has the best box, it uses rack and pinion valving, next would be either a third gen box or one from AGR through Summit Racing.

The first two boxes require hose adapters, they have metric hose threads with O ring seals.

The AGR can use the stock hoses.

Another consideration is the first two have a smaller steering input shaft and require a different rag joint.
The AGR uses your stock rag joint.

I'm not pushing the AGR, there are other mfr's that make a similar retrifit fast box with SAE ports and the older larger stock input shaft splines.

Your new pump may have higher output pressure setting. You can swap your old pressure control valve from your old pump into the new one.
David

[speED]

Dave,

I like the fact that the AGR is a direct bolt-in. Do you know if the AGR boxes will interfere with the headers?

ED

[speED]

Dave,

I do not have the old pump, where can I get a pressure control valve and is there any way I can tell what I currently have?

ED

[David Pozzi]

Where did your current pump come from?
Most pumps from pickup trucks or mid 70's pumps have a higher pressure setting than the original pump.
Original pumps used around a 900 lb setting. Pickups used 1400 psi.

On the spool valve in the pump there is a nut, the nut holds a shim washer, the more washers, the lower the pressure setting. You would need to add a washer there. It is pretty hard to remove the nut without damage to the spool body. I clamp two vise grip pliers onto the body in-between the rubbing surfaces, stick a drill bit into the side hole so it helps prevent rotation, then clamp the two vise grips in a bench vise, THEN turn the nut. Like I said, the nut is TIGHT! The spool body is hardened, so it's hard to grab hold of it.

You really want a newer box if it's in your budget. You'll love it! The newer boxes higher pressure and flow.

The AGR boxes are the same dimension as a stock older box. We put one on my wife's 73 Camaro for autocross and it was a great improvment. We didn't have to change rag joint or hoses, - just transferred the old pitman arm to the new box.
David

[speED]

Dave,

Current pump is from a 66 Corvette. I believe it has a high pressure setting. The steering on a 66 Vette also has the shock damper which I do not have on the Camaro. If I go with a new AGR box do you think I will still need to shim the valve?

Thanks for all your advice.

[David Pozzi]

I think the 66 vette uses a different system, there is a slave cylinder connected to the tie rod end that gives the assist. The box has no hydraulics at all. This is similar to what Ford used for years.
I have a listing of pressures for 1967, and the vette is similar in pressure setting to a Camaro 900 to 1000 psi.
There may be something funny with your valve, or the screen inside the "nut" of your pressure valve may be clogged with debris.

But as I said, the best you can hope for is a "normal" feeling for a first gen box which isn't anywhere near as nice as a good box like the AGR, the ratio is faster too. I'd get a stiff feel fast ratio box, then if it isn't feeling right, work on pump pressures.
David