Sub-frame from ECKLERS

[jpierson77]

has anyone tried this or know anything about this for the first gen F body?http://http://www.ecklerscamaro.com/product.asp?pf%5Fid=721769&dept%5Fid=1803
Good price if its any good. The other front ends Im looking at is the Global west cat5 or the dse speed kit three. Any comments on these two would be appreciated.
thanks

[68Formula]

It's a Heidts subframe. http://www.heidts.com/heip43.htm#camframe

A search in this forum might come up with some stuff.

[jpierson77]

Thanks for the reply

[josh@scotts]

have you ever considered a scotts front end ?


www.scottshotrods.com

[TBART70]

looks nicer than mine.

[josh@scotts]

who did you go through?

[hotrdblder]

those body mounts look dangerous, what is the camber curve and bumpsteer numbers?

[josh@scotts]

dangerous? what do you mean? i can get you the numbers tomorrow at work ,just curious do you think the bumpsteer is less on a stock frontend? just so you know are front ends are in perfect angle with are a-arm points and rack pivot points. are ball joints are 2 inch for more travel, and this front end shown has solid stainless steel arms! for extra rigid and more use of the shocks instead of a-arm flex. camber curve is fully adjustable to your preference , but i know there is very minimal change in toe and camber ive seen these front ends with air bags and have seen little change between 0 and 12 inches of travel!

[silver69camaro]

camber curve is fully adjustable to your preference

Adjustable FVSA? I assume you mean static camber, right?

[hotrdblder]

he has to mean static, i doubt he knows what camber gain per inch of travel really is, but i would love to see or hear the numbers.
the reason the body mounts look dangerous is there is no triangulation to tie the mount area back into the frame, all that is welded is fore and aft, a good shot to the front would fold those over

[silver69camaro]

the reason the body mounts look dangerous is there is no triangulation to tie the mount area back into the frame, all that is welded is fore and aft, a good shot to the front would fold those over

Look at the first photo. It shows the body mounts with a plate welded to the back. It appears the last photo possibly isn't a completed frame. Judging by the first pic, it looks OK.

[hotrdblder]

looks to me like the last pic is complete and ready for shipping, and all the pics look a bit different.

[josh@scotts]

hey you guys i appreciate the tech questions ,its been awhile since ive read a front end book , but i do know the difference between static and camber gain per inch is ,but im serious guys ive been around suspension shops my whole life griggs racing,raceplace, jim hall sr, mckenzie racing ,and ill tell you i may not be a suspension engineer but i know the difference between a stock front end and one that has less than 2 degrees negative of camber change in 12 inches of movement !! im not saying this front end is the best front end in the world ,but i will say that it is the highest quality frontend available for the money!!

[TitoJones]

Wait-

You are telling me that the frame you just posted up has LESS than 2 degrees of total neg camber over a 12" suspension travel? That is terrible!

Why measure 12" of travel? These are pavement pounding muscle cars, not class 9 off road trucks; they have about 4" of usable travel in them total.

Here is what I would like to know:

Spindles- where are the from, what are they made of, what brake systems do they support?
What is the recommended alignment settings for that frame for a street car?
What is your bumpsteer figure? (Don't even think about saying zero, because that is not a possible number.)
what is your neg camber gain per inch of travel?
How much caster can you get out of the frame?
What kind of turning radius does it have compared to stock?
Can you fit wider than a 8.5" wheel up front without rubbing?
Where are your engine mounts?
What brand of shocks/springs?
What is the spring rate you recommend for SBC? BBC? LSX?
Will factory crossmembers bolt up without modification?
Are the framerails narrowed?
Will factory type headers fit?
You mentioned the arms are Stainless- what material type?
EDIT: One more- What is the track width compared to factory?

I know, lots of info to bring to the table. We as a group like hard data vs marketing hype, so research this stuff and get back to us.

Welcome to the site.

Tyler

[hotrdblder]

Wait-

You are telling me that the frame you just posted up has LESS than 2 degrees of total neg camber over a 12" suspension travel? That is terrible!

Why measure 12" of travel? These are pavement pounding muscle cars, not class 9 off road trucks; they have about 4" of usable travel in them total.

Here is what I would like to know:

Spindles- where are the from, what are they made of, what brake systems do they support?
What is the recommended alignment settings for that frame for a street car?
What is your bumpsteer figure? (Don't even think about saying zero, because that is not a possible number.)
what is your neg camber gain per inch of travel?
How much caster can you get out of the frame?
What kind of turning radius does it have compared to stock?
Can you fit wider than a 8.5" wheel up front without rubbing?
Where are your engine mounts?
What brand of shocks/springs?
What is the spring rate you recommend for SBC? BBC? LSX?
Will factory crossmembers bolt up without modification?
Are the framerails narrowed?
Will factory type headers fit?
You mentioned the arms are Stainless- what material type?
EDIT: One more- What is the track width compared to factory?

I know, lots of info to bring to the table. We as a group like hard data vs marketing hype, so research this stuff and get back to us.

Welcome to the site.

Tyler
perfect!!

[LONE*STAR]

man...I love you guys!!!

I have been wanting to select one of the many front ends out there for my Bird but really would like to see the PT experts on our site come close to a concencus to what is the best all around full feature set-up out there... It really would help us less engineering familar guys figure out whats best for our ride, without being sucked into markting hype like you stated. Keep up the good work fellas.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

AME and DSE thats all you need to worry about..

[LONE*STAR]

Does ame= Art morrison and I thought he is out of a shop and might not return? I read that in some posts, I am familar with the DSE units although all said and done from hub to hub you will nearly spend $9k am I wrong? Is the speedtech frame going to compete with these two formentioned units. If price is a serious concideration and hard street driving and safety are top of the list then are some of the more affordable option acceptable or will two much tech or geometry be sacrificed? sorry for the thread jak just seemed like the right moment to pose some serios noob questions.

[dhutton]

You might want to check to see if the AME and DSE will work with your Pontiac 400. I'm not so sure that they will. Most aftermarket clips only support SBC, BBC and LSx. The Chicane LM might be the way to go there.

I received my Art Morrison clip last week. The workmanship and quality is excellent.

Don

[silver69camaro]

Does ame= Art morrison and I thought he is out of a shop and might not return?

Art's been in the business for about 35 years and wont be quitting any time soon. I think you're confusing him with Wayne Due.

Tyler, he goofed about the camber. He's talking about toe change.

[LowBuckX]

Sponcer battles thought this site was above that.

[Marcus SC&C]

LowBuck, I wouldn`t call it a sponsor battle. One of the things that seperates this site and the ProTouring crowd from a lot of the automotive market is that the consumers are really well informed and those that aren`t ask questions until they are. It also happens that many of the manufacturers and sponsors are really hard core and know their products inside and out including their technical merits rather than just being salesmen. In this case a few of the most qualified guys on the site are asking for technical data on an unknown product,because they want to know and they know the rest of the site members will want to know too. A couple of them just happen to be sponsors.
This is one tough place to be for manufacturers who don`t have rock solid tech on their stuff. That`s why many of them don`t post here. :naughty:

Back to the original question the MII subframes aren`t *bad* they`re just not as good as they could be. At least you get a half decent power R&P but honestly you can get better performance out of a stock subframe with the right bolt on mods and a Lee steering box. That`s where your best bang for the buck is always going to be. Aftermarket subframes range from "looks cool just don`t drive it much" to well engineered and capable of great performance. A search on this forum will usually seperate the wheat from the chaff. Mark SC&C

[TitoJones]

Sponcer battles thought this site was above that.

Do you see me pawning off my products in this thread? Am I coming in here to say that X is better than Y?
No.

We have standards on this board. This is not an attack on the product or the company, I just want to see what this frame really has to offer. If they can't answer any of the questions i asked, they shouldn't be in here promoting their product.

You don't see DSE, AME, SC&C or myself ever not answering any tech question about our products, so why does the new guy get a free ride?


i can get you the numbers tomorrow at work


Josh- Ball is in your court, we are waiting.

Tyler

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

what do you mean?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[josh@scotts]

"new guy" scotts has been around for 12 yrs ,im sorry tito jones i wouldnt sell you a front end if you were the last camaro on earth ,because you know everything and i know nothing. i understand that you base your vehicles off c.a.d design just like smokey yunich and most of the heroes from the the scca ,but iam not a salesman i am just involved with a lot different manufacturers , and have compared are front ends to theres and have made improvements to gain performance ,over competitors just like you . unforteunitly mr.jones i dont have a computer to tell me how my parts will work i use old fashion r&d with road tests , remember we built a versitile front end ,if you want to geek out and make the perfect front end for track only then be my guest , but i better not see one on your car!! and as far as the travel part that was on an air bagg suspension like i mentioned in the previous post or cant you read..

[PARKERRS]

Some one would rather get huffy and argue instead of bring facts to the table. This forum is for people looking for hard numbers so they can sort out which product will best suit the intended use of their project. If you can't bring the facts and tech explanations then don't start a flame war to cover up your lack of product knowledge. Bring me proof in numbers from your old school R&D and I will be glad to compare your product with the rest of the market, but this approach only throws up a red flag for me in which case I will bypass your unit as having no proof positive advantage over stock modified.

[josh@scotts]

ok you guys want numbers ? are alignment specs are as follows 1/2 to 3 degrees pos. caster . 1 /4 -to 1/2 + and depending on the ryde height i would have to say bump steer is next to nothin ! just depends on how low you go ,like i said the rack is in perfect geometry with a-rms mounting points.. you want are "super g" front end with adj length a- arms and pivot point heights you can mess with your camber gain ,but thats a little more adjustment than most need ..

[hotrdblder]

so i gathered nothing from this.
how much camber gain per inch of bump?
how much total bumpsteer in 3 or 4 inches of travel?
what is the track width? so we can figure scrub radius,etc
how many subs have you sold? 10-15?
usually when you sell a product you should know everything about the product, not " the product just rocks"

[TitoJones]

"new guy" scotts has been around for 12 yrs

The new guy comment was not directed at how long the company you promote for has been in business, it was more referring to your join date and post count. Welcome to the board newbie.


,im sorry tito jones i wouldnt sell you a front end if you were the last camaro on earth ,because you know everything and i know nothing.

I don't know everything. I know enough to make me dangerous, and I know enough about suspension and design to know when a manufacturer is blowing smoke up my ass.


" i understand that you base your vehicles off c.a.d design just like smokey yunich and most of the heroes from the the scca ,but iam not a salesman i am just involved with a lot different manufacturers , and have compared our front ends to their's and have made improvements to gain performance ,over competitors just like you .

You say you have compared others products to your own and made improvements, so you must have something to show for it. I just want to see that data. I'd like to know who's products you tested too and how. My company fabricated our test parts the old way- by hand not by CAD, and did our testing the same way- with Physical testing and measuring on actual frames and components. When we had our data we went full bore in CAD to design our stuff.


unforteunitly mr.jones i dont have a computer to tell me how my parts will work i use old fashion r&d with road tests ,

It seems you did the road test with your calibrated 'butt-o-meter' and felt an improvement over a factory frame with your new clip. What I'd like to know is what are you comparing it to? I'm going to guess it was a factory frame with worn rubber bushings, no G mod, no solid frame bushings, etc. It doesn't take much to out do that.


remember we built a versitile front end ,if you want to geek out and make the perfect front end for track only then be my guest , but i better not see one on your car!! and as far as the travel part that was on an air bagg suspension like i mentioned in the previous post or cant you read..

I'm having a hard time remembering this product you speak of. What I see is a street rod based suspension all decked out in Stainless and chrome with no provisions for engine mounts, crossmember, clutch linkage etc. I'll agree it is a front end, but it isn't any better than Fatman, Heidts or Total Cost Involved; all of who are street rod companies trying to cash in on the P-T market. Scott's seems to be on the same train as these other guys.
I want you to prove me wrong. I want you to get so pissed off that you have no choice but to shut me down with the data I asked for. Until that time comes (and I'm not holding my breath) you are being classified as a poser in the P-T community. I'm tired of biting my tounge, I call it like it is.

You don't need to lose sleep about me sneaking one of your frames onto my car, it won't happen because I can't tell if it even suits my needs- You forgot all the data!

Your company chose to be a sponsor here at Pro-Touring.com. If you want to be successful with the membership here you might want to bring back some real data and not marketing hype.

And regarding the Airbag and its 12 inches of travel-

What the hell was a Camaro doing that HAS 12 inches of suspension travel? I can read, write in proper English and spell. Thanks for the concern though.


Tyler

[hotrdblder]

tyler its that donk camaro don't ya know,lmfao:lmao:

[ahowudoin]

Try "our" instead of "are" please!

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

i actually like the fact that Tyler is practically melting this fool..

and i usually dont condone flaming or flamers..



LOL

[ProTouring442]

"new guy" scotts has been around for 12 yrs ,im sorry tito jones i wouldnt sell you a front end if you were the last camaro on earth ,because you know everything and i know nothing. i understand that you base your vehicles off c.a.d design just like smokey yunich and most of the heroes from the the scca ,but iam not a salesman i am just involved with a lot different manufacturers , and have compared are front ends to theres and have made improvements to gain performance ,over competitors just like you . unforteunitly mr.jones i dont have a computer to tell me how my parts will work i use old fashion r&d with road tests , remember we built a versitile front end ,if you want to geek out and make the perfect front end for track only then be my guest , but i better not see one on your car!! and as far as the travel part that was on an air bagg suspension like i mentioned in the previous post or cant you read..

Here we go again... Next time you decide to insult someone on their reading and comprehension skills, I suggest you first look into the many uses of Spell Check. For your convenience, I have included a copy of your rant below, words with incorrect spelling, missing punctuation, and improper usage are underlined.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

"new guy" scotts has been around for 12 yrs ,im sorry tito jones i wouldnt sell you a front end if you were the last camaro on earth ,because you know everything and i know nothing. i understand that you base your vehicles off c.a.d design just like smokey yunich and most of the heroes from the the scca ,but iam not a salesman i am just involved with a lot different manufacturers , and have compared are front ends to theres and have made improvements to gain performance ,over competitors just like you . unforteunitly mr.jones i dont have a computer to tell me how my parts will work i use old fashion r&d with road tests , remember we built a versitile front end ,if you want to geek out and make the perfect front end for track only then be my guest , but i better not see one on your car!! and as far as the travel part that was on an air bagg suspension like i mentioned in the previous post or cant you read..

[TBART70]

Here we go again, deja vu, I'm getting goose bumps. Tyler said it all!!

[68Formula]

Josh, maybe some of the earlier comments came of a little harsh, but here is the situation:

The Pro-touring members take handling seriously even if some of us may never see a track. We enjoy digging into the details and analyzing the mechanics. It's the difference between someone talking about a "3/4 Race cam" and talking about "cam type, lift duration @ "0.50 and advertised, total lift, intake centerlines and exhaust centerlines." Some might even get into "tappet yank, jerk, acceleration, velocity, contact margin, dwell, cam pressure angle, radius of curvature, whether it's designed using a polynomial, spline, harmonic, or some combination equation order, etc." Many of us are type two, and a few are even type three.

Many improvements can be made on a stock frame and the members know it. So for us, the aftermarket versions have to offer more. The Scott's setup looks like the typical street rod replacement version. The benefits being it's not rusted, doesn't require shims to adjust, and has a r&p steering. A street rodder might not care (it's a huge step from their factory offers) but here function is equally if not more important.

There is no value in stating static alignment specs, as those can be set on any frame. What you quoted is basically the same as stock which was designed for bias ply tires, so most of us do not use them any longer.

I'm sure someone in your organization has the product knowledge, so my suggestion would be to get them in here to discuss the details others mentioned.

I hope this helps.

P.S. I'd like to know how much anti-dive it has. I can't see any in the pictures.

[LowBuckX]

Do you see me pawning off my products in this thread? Am I coming in here to say that X is better than Y?
No.

We have standards on this board. This is not an attack on the product or the company, I just want to see what this frame really has to offer. If they can't answer any of the questions i asked, they shouldn't be in here promoting their product.

You don't see DSE, AME, SC&C or myself ever not answering any tech question about our products, so why does the new guy get a free ride?



Tyler

Never said you where hocking a product. Since he is a sponcer he didnt get a free ride. I just think it tacky to call out another sponcer thats all I have to say about it.

I agree with the Above(from AMCMIKE). Alot of people here and on other sites run the product my employer sells (I make) but I would never come on here to answer tech question that I dont know.

[Steve Chryssos]

.....I agree with the Above(from AMCMIKE). Alot of people here and on other sites run the product my employer sells (I make) but I would never come on here to answer tech question that I dont know.

Perfect. Josh has done more damage than any of the respondents. So you might as well stop picking on him. Hopefully someone from Scott's can come in and undo the damage.

This is your shock absorber.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

This is your shock absorber thru 6" or so of bump
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

12" of travel will cause your A-arm to crash into your spring shock combo on full rebound and cause your subframe to crash into the ground on full bump. Your subframe woud end up in China.

Just clarify some of the erroneous statements for our members so that people are not confused and then let this thread die.
1) 12" of travel is not possible on a Camaro--regardles of spring type.
2) Camber Gain is not a bad thing.
3) Triangulation is your friend.

People will be reading this thread throughout eternity. Don't sweat the pimping, let's just make sure that someone doesn't spend hard earned money to get zero camber gain and 12" of travel. Be constructive.

[TitoJones]

Never said you where hocking a product. Since he is a sponcer he didnt get a free ride. I just think it tacky to call out another sponcer thats all I have to say about it.

I agree with the Above(from AMCMIKE). Alot of people here and on other sites run the product my employer sells (I make) but I would never come on here to answer tech question that I dont know.


The big thing about your creditability is that you know quite a bit about fabrication, and the technical aspect of the stuff we do here. You also don't have your employer's company name in your user name, nor do you have a link to their website in your sig. You are not here representing a company, you are an individual. That is a huge difference.

Tyler

[Project69]

Is it me or could this frame use a bit more stability?

Overall i love the design of it. Looks alot cleaner then most that ive seen. And i am looking for a new front clip to replace my 2-ton one.

[LowBuckX]

The big thing about your creditability is that you know quite a bit about fabrication, and the technical aspect of the stuff we do here. You also don't have your employer's company name in your user name, nor do you have a link to their website in your sig. You are not here representing a company, you are an individual. That is a huge difference.

Tyler

Maybe the sponcer title should be given only to verified techs and knowlegable reps. But this would be the resposibility of the owner of said companys.

I dont play tech or customer service because I dont have all the specs, numbers, fitment stuff at hand and to be honest I realy dont want to play that role.


Maybe we can cut him some slack and wait for someone from scotts to come forward and allow them to set everything straight and not get jumped on for someone elses claims who may not be as well versed in the fine details.
Every sponcer on this site sells fine products and I for one am not going to judge Scotts product until a qualified rep can sway me in either direction.
I still would rather build something for myself but the stocker can be modded to run way beyond what I will ever need.

[GetMore]

FWIW, if Scotts does not have any computer programs to map out the alignment changes due to suspension travel and then give a printout, then they could do it the old fasioned way.
Using standard alignment equipment you can record the numbers at different heights. Just set the alignment at "standard" ride height, give the specs, and then give the specs of where the tires are pointing every inch of travel from that height. Caster, camber and toe.

I understand that the "on paper" specs might not tell us exactly how the car will handle, but it should be a good starting point.

I'm thinking that this info is something that any subframe manufacturer should be able to show for their product. Am I correct in this assumption?

[chicane67]

The old fashioned way ??

You mean that they have someone that would do full scale (or scaled for that matter) mechanical drawings by hand ?? That, is the old fashioned way... but there are not too many people that have that experience left.

In the recent past, the manufacturers of said subframes never directly quoted what their subframes did. It was and has been considered a "Trade Secret" or "Proprietary Information". It only recently became an acceptable thing to do... if you wanted to actually sell your product. You can pretty much thank this website for that, as it was really myself and a few other here that performed unbiased testing of what all companies brought to the table. It was more of a 'what do I get for $XXX.xx amount of dollars.'

It really pole vaulted the knowledge curve of the typical end user. And it also called a spade a spade... amoungst the manufacturers.

[baz67]

Ok, guys nice job calming it down before we had to step in. Having said that, Josh, you have been asked a few very good questions. It is fine if you do not want to answer them. However, if you chose to answer them you better do better then marketing hype. As you can see this site is way beyond the form over function mentality of most show car builders. As you have seen you will get hit with some very serious questions that can go beyond what you can handle. Answer what you know and be honest and you will be treated accordingly. Also, if you want avoid some harassment, type and use the English language like an adult. We are not a bunch of snot nosed, fart tipped, ricer punks here. Find a good spell checker and use it, I know I do. It will go a long way towards credibility.

Now, I would like to ask a question. I did not see it asked when I scanned the thread so I hope it is not a duplicate. Why use solid stainless for the control arms? Hollow tubes would be just as strong and you would get the benefit of reduction in unsprung mass.

[josh@scotts]

well i appreciate all the comments, good or bad , and i never came on here to argue or flame anyone just try to offer a good quality product , i well understand the serious technical needs that the consumer require before purchasing a product and i am in fact having a c.a.d. designer come by to copy our front end to the computer so that you the customer can see it in motion in desired inches of travel to see if is front end is for you . thanks for the education you guys, you do know what you want and hopefully after our display it will appeal to you more.. sincerely , josh@scotts

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

josh, have you or your company ever built a protouring car?

if so can you show us the final product?

[6'9"Witha69]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[josh@scotts]

i had a 68 chevelle with alot of hotchkis upgrades and 16 rims ,but only in the last few years have i seen the protouring style get so big , when i was into it, it wasnt as big ,16 rims were the style but i think overhaulin is where the fad got really popular for the 18 inch and bigger rims, the style is quite great, but when i was into it there wasnt that many people doin it.. but we have worked with a couple of guys that are into g- machines and i think its great! i just like to make people happy not just take their money.. i have sum pics of a undercover mustang convertible with a completely different front and rear susp. then stock with a 4.6 mach one drivetrain and a convertible nova thats pretty sweet the customer big into pro touring as well..

[LowBuckX]

Ive never seen a 16 wheeler Chevelle can you post a pic.. lol Joking.

BUt I take issue with the overhauling comment. We have been doing this before OVerHauling and American chopshop where even on TV They copied us and made it a Look when it was never a look thing to the people who where here from the begining.. The Look is the result of the function.

[Steve Chryssos]

This is the thread from hell. I can see it descending into a "What is Pro-Touring" thread. And we all know how those end.

[KUL FIR CHICK N]

Lock it down now, PLEASE! My head hurts from reading it. A Darwin discussion is sure to come next. Monkeys and footballs also come to mind.

[LowBuckX]

Yadda yadda. you guys where thinking it I just typed it.