braided brake line question

[king67rsss]

I was at the local Earl's distributor today and I happened to mention to the owner that I had just finished up bending and flairing all new brake hard lines and what a pain it had been. He asked me why I didn't use braided lines for the front.
He said that the Earl's braided lines with teflon did not swell or give a spongy pedal feel like braided rubber lines.
I read many posts on here that recommended running all hard lines to avoid the spongy pedal and mentioned that to him. His response was "well, we've been using braided lines from the master to the front brakes for 10 years in our autocross cars and I've never noticed a difference over the cars with hard lines".
Is there any truth to this? Granted, it's a lot cheaper to run hard lines but it sure would have been a lot easier.

[Goatman]

I used them on my race car. Never had a problem...

[MonzaRacer]

if your talking about running all the line to the caliper from the prop valve NO NO NO.
ONly use just what you need to have it flex under turns and suspesion articulation.
And if this guy wants to trust his life so be it but not for street cars remeber TANSTAAFL There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.
I had a guy briing up a drag car with braided all the way around no hard line at all and after he demolished a perfectly gorgeous $100K car when one of the lines gave way I'll pass.
I really like the Russell Street Flex (?) I think they make it ,they have a frame and spring strain relief on them and work great.
Also I guarantee the hard line wont give you any problems for years to come.
Besides the hard line looks much better in my opinion.
Now dont get me wrong if you had some type of street rod and the prop valve is super close to the caliper MAYBE but I would have to be very convinced.
Good Luck

[Martin71RS]

Monzaracer....I hear your story...but it doesn't make sense to me.... the failure could also happen on a short lenght (from wheel to hard line) and cause it.

I have never heard of the ss braided lines failing (but I understand it can happen), we used to make and install them on each bike we did when I worked in a bike shop...from caliper to MC. It improves the brake feel over rubber lines too.

Knowing all that I decided to put full braided lines (goodridge) on my Camaro a few years ago. I drove it on the streets (daily) and never had any problems, recently inspected them since my car is apart and they still look okay. One thing I did was choose the "carbon fibre" look which basically means the braiding is covered with a plastic black translucent jacket same as used on battery cables used in stereo installs. This prevents the braiding from chafing paint or other parts.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2007/05/camaro54-1.jpg

[fastercar68]

Last fall after a road course day, I upgraded my pads to Hawk HPS (not the full race version), front lines to the Russell Street Flex, and Castrol DOT 5 fluid.

The pedal feel is awesome! Although I just have the usual front disc upgrade kit (single large piston calipers, rear drums) the bite the brakes have is such a confidence builder. I have a 2003 PT Cruiser Turbo with 4-way discs, and my camaro has better brakes by far.

[Goatman]

That's what you get for buying a Neon with a different body........

[Skip Fix]

I've seen many high end road race cars with all braided lines. Since most of us have existing chassis and just the connection to the calipers depending on the system changes seems to me stilleasier to get all new hard lines then just use braided to the calipers.

[MonzaRacer]

Still if it can bend or flex on its own its not ridgid. also did you know that on a street car using complete braided line is NOT DOT legal. no one makes them as such and if you get into a wreck is your money and life and the life of your family/passengers on the line.
I for one will keep bending hard lines and installing the proper flex lines.
I ask several chassis builders nd they told me they would never do it as the braided lines need to be replaced every so often, period.
Hardl ine if it isnt rusted ot kinked will run for decades.
See hard line is actually several layers of thin metal folded and welded together its not soild as most think and a 3/16 steel line has a burtrating int the mid 20,000 psi range. The braided still only carries around a 10,000psi range in similar sizes.
See you guys havent figured it out airplanes running braided lines need to have lines serviced(ie replaced) at certain intervals of air miles.
THIS WAS WHERE THE FIRST RACERS GOT THIERS PARTS!
So they at that time were putting old fatigued parts on fast cars, admittedly not as advanced as some of ours.
Now no one is inspecting your braided at set intervals and you want to trust your life and car to complete braided lines,,,,please dont tailgate me if so.
Just cause it worked for a few people a few times will your car insurance protect you if you rearend a car and kill someone,,, no.
Besides if they bring in a NHTSA investigator and he sees it your hung as the complete line replacement isnt DOT legal and if youinstalled or had it installed then you get the bill.
There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. I wont take a easy route, not with brakes I see so many cars come in with barely usefull brakes from owner service then wonder why I have to undo all of the bad they did.
Dont get me wrong I am not saying people here couldnt do a good brake job but if your not willing to pony up for proper steel lines then what kind of work are you going to do on the "simplier" braided stuff.
Good luck in what ever you do.
Lee
AFTERMARKET PERFORMANCE

[Goatman]

I've only seen or heard of one kind of brake line failing, and it wasn't braided.........it was steel.


All the proof I need...

[MonzaRacer]

Gee goatman only steel line I have ever heard of failing was rusted stuff.
As for braided line failing I have seen plenty of braided stuff fail.
Actually had to rebuild several engines because of professionaly made braided lines failing on customers engines so dont tell me it wont fail.
And I stand by the simple fact if you drive a car with all braided steel lines front to rear and have a failure resulting in death or destruction your insureance doesnt have to pay, well if you get lucky and they dont bring in DOT you might get away with it but a million dollar lawsuit or killing someone will stop me from ever doing it on a street car.
Lee

[Martin71RS]

Monzaracer, I hear what you are saying...I live in the Netherlands and the DOT is not a concern for me neither are big lawsuits (not that I ever would want my brakes to fail which is more important).

How do you think about using the braided line for the short bits, from hard line to caliper?

My view on it is this:
the point where braided might fail (if installed unproperly) is at the couplings, not the hose itself.
When running braided throughout the whole car the number of couplings are equal to just using the hardlines + the last part braided hose so the chances on failure are equal too.

I had my lines made at Goodridge, I don't live too far from them and I had them pressed on the hose.

Martin

[Skip Fix]

Using that same arguement any change in caliper,disc pad,master cylinder or even tire diameter has changed the design dynamics of the braking system and the DOT boys could use that as a fault also.

[MonzaRacer]

Well dont get me wrong anyone can do what ever they want. But the flex lines to the wheels are produced to DOT ratings. atleast the ones I use would be.
Again I have seen people use long lines before and dont feel thats safe, but to each his own.
Regardless long runs of flexible lines will still give some over hard lines and to me as a car crafter I feel it is just a cop out on the builder. I am a tech for a living and making hard line is a fun talent. I am ordering my hydralic flarring tool soon so as to be able to make better looking lines.
I see repairs in solid steel line with brass compression fittings but most people dont understand that is illegal in US and opens them up to some serious liability. and I believe that flexible braided lines would do the same on street driven cars.
To me the little details make a better AND safer car. I know lots of shops that dont care which grade of bolts they use and for me ifits in a suspension I will always wait and use grade 8.
Regardless of what i think everyone is going to do what they want. But honestly i dont think full length braided lines are the answer or as safe as properly bents hard lines to the flex line connection point and using actual dOT legal brake lines.
As for swapping in brakes and wheels they all have a dot rating and are actual parts that meet certain criteria.
corvette brakes arent carved out of wood or something you can weld up at home so there isnt much that can be done about that. And besides evey car has brakes ,they would have to prove that they casued a wreck and a blown brake hose thats 12 feet long would be plainly obvious.
Swapping one item for another isnt actionable, but totally using a braided line the full length of the car well easy way to leave a door open for a lawyer to eat you alive and like I said a job thats a bitch but done right is so much better than a easier way.
good luck
Lee

[king67rsss]

Lee, I appreciate your opinions and they mirror almost everything I've ever read. BUT the gentleman I spoke to did not mention running FULL lines front to rear. He was suggesting running it to the fronts only. Bending the rear lines was cake compared to getting all of the bends to not only look nice but fit properly for the fronts. Do you have the same opinions about running only the fronts in braided?

With the DOT concern, I can see your point but anyone running any product labeled "for off road use only" would have a potential issue legally, with your argument, if a failure occured. That would mean that any of us running some aftermarket brakes and all of us using the Hydrotech units could potentially be open for a lawsuit if there was a failure. Not that I see or hear of that happening.

[MonzaRacer]

dont get me wrong if you have a car that had disc brakes and you replace it with disc brakes i dont see where it would be an actionable problem.
But if you have even several feet of brake lines straight to the prop valve then its painfully obvious. As for making front lines I dont have any problems making lines infact I am going to have to do just that on my Monza.
I tried to remove the stock lines from the old brake hoses but that wasnt happening.
So I am going to start bending lines and bleeding brakes in the front. and I will need to start making lines from the master cylinder to the prop valve and making the lines go to my line lock too.
As for making lines to the back I intend to redo them all the way back so I can be sure of no rust.
see replacement with like parts of a useful quality i dont see any problems. Most of the Wilwood,Baer,Brembo etc parts are all patterned after stock parts and are designed as upgrades by esablished companies and them having years of experience and design technology behind said parts.
You have to figure Brembo is sold on countelss production cars every year so seeing them on something isnt out of the question.
and again several feet of braided line atached straight to a 69 Camaros propvalve isnt exactly stock appearing.But disc brakes are, and if you upgrade to alrger calipers/rotors your not doing anything bad or unsafe.
I just havent been sold after seeing a car blow a line, the car wasnt that old in my opinion and the line split.
Most braided lines to wheels are FMVSS approved (DOT) if someone makes a a kit that does this and can pass muster that way so be it.

[Goatman]

Braided lines are fine. Never seen or heard of one breaking....


This Monza guy also claims Amsoil is responsible for his engines failing. Please take his words with a grain of salt, or discount them completely, as most have....

[Goatman]

Gee goatman only steel line I have ever heard of failing was rusted stuff.

So then a stainless line by your "logic" would be fine....Sorta like a stainless braided line........One that's about three times stronger than a tube...


As for braided line failing I have seen plenty of braided stuff fail.


And you've also "seen" your homebuilt engines fail "because" of the best oil in the world.........



So in recap folks, he's only seen rusty lines fail, but stainless steel lines can't rust. Braided or not...........


Following this guy is like following the blind....

[ProTouring442]

I'm not so sure on this "all braided line" thing, but I would think it would be fine if done properly.

As for the legality; that's a whole new can of worms! For example, here in The People's Republic of Maryland, any suspension modification is grounds for failing Maryland inspection. Now, that doesn't mean that the car is not legal on the street, but it does mean that it will need to be inspected by a Maryland Inspection State Trooper, and you will be subject to his thoughts on the saftey of the modification. :seizure:

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
www.FQuick.com/ProTouring442

[Jim Nilsen]

In more than one article I have read. The braided hoses that are legal will have a plastic flex resisting material at the point of connection with the fitting. Russel hoses do this and so do several other brands. The package will say DOT approved and your pedal feel will go up a noticable amount.

Early setups did not pass the whip test and failed prematurely at the fitting and hose connection. Things have been good for a long time.

[CarlC]

Goatman, you have provided no information on what you "have seen and heard" about the failure of steel/stainless tubing. Since every OEM car and aircraft builder uses hardline tube for their hydraulic systems then they must know a little bit about the engineering and reliability associated with their application. If made and applied correctly there is no better better high-pressure fluid conveyance system than a hardline.

Any part that is not made correctly, mis-applied, incorrectly installed, or abused can fail, and making sweeping statments without factual information is misleading to those who do not know the differance.

It's time for everyone to back down a notch. We're here to learn via the transfer of useful information, not jabs at one another or the car we drive.

[chicane67]

Hummm... yeah. Lets clear up a few misconceptions.

First of all, stainless isnt stainless... and it does rust.

Secondly, the math associated:

P = (2t x S) /0

Where:

P = burst pressure in PSI
t = is wall thickness, in inches
S = is tensil strength of material in PSI
0 = is outside diameter, in inches

If you apply this to both examples of tubing, you might be surprised in what you see as the resultant.

In respect to anything braided, especially the high pressure applications, the line itself is only as good as its assembly. I have seen -3, of about 14 inches long take 5000 PSI and I have also seen the same thing fail at 1200... and even less. This covers both engine and brake system relations. One reason why using teflon lines with a steel overbraid is frowned upon is the repeatability in the manufacturing of the lines themselves. There is a higher failure rate for anything that uses more parts over any other... that alone is covered in the "first design rule." The next would be to build in a factor of saftey which is the "second design rule." That is how the OEM and the DOT are gonna look at it. No matter if you dont have to worry about the DOT or not... the liability lies in your hands and you ultimately take sole responsibility.

In my personal opinion, there is nothing better than hard line... with the exception of a flexible connection point, like that of frame thru suspension (frame to brake caliper), or articulating control point (servos, hydro/mechanical). One just needs to suit their requirements with the correct components for the peticular application.

Its up to you to do the math and to figure out what is truely required... and remember that the liability involves you... but effects everyone around you. Afterall, what you are doing is pretty much constructing and 'Experimental' vehicle.

[Goatman]

The only thing anyone has to worry about is the ends.... That's why the pre-made lines are DOT and everything else is not.. Braided isn't going to break or burst anymore than a hard line would unless its been compromised. In most cases, its stronger....Teflon, then all that braid... Very, very strong.


With a proper way to attach the ends, I wouldn't worry about it at all....