Would You Use E85?

[CSI:QUINCY]

Would You Use E 85 In Your Ride?

[4birdman]

I'd use it in both my Trans Ams if I didn't have to drive 20 minutes to get to the closest station!

[BADVELLE]

Would You Use E 85 In Your Ride?

It depends on why you are asking, i.e., performance, fuel mileage, tree hugging, etc. The ONLY benefit to E85 is that we (US) is relying on the Midwest corn market, instead of the Arab nations for petro. Why would I want to specifically run it in my hot rod?

[MonzaRacer]

Heck yes i am even developing the parts to aetup my own FlexFI set up and hopefully it wont be too expensive as I like the beneifits of E85.
build a 11 to 1 aluminum head small block run it with adapted technology. And push the edge. I ran my big block on the street and its still together waiting on a different car body but I ran a BBC with 10.5 pistons ,milled heads(iron), zero deck block. it ran like stink and never broke on me except when the HPX head bolts were shipped with the wrong torque specs. A couple of cheap cams cost me some time. My next choice is a Chet Herbert roller. Just gotta get some good lifters and in it goes back in.
This engien would be awesome with 105 octane. I hope I can get my FI setup going the bigest problem has been sourcing the flex sensor. Doing the Flex with software takes a LOT of RAM.
Now on a carb you have the problem of being the only fuel it can run. A sort of fix is if someone could make the jetting adjustable but that is not a good fix.
The big ticket item is having a wide band O2 and controler and a lap top so you can read the exhaust and dial the fuel and spark curve.
the tuner needs to remember that E85 alos wants colder plugs too and you gotta stay on top of the tune and fuel or you can and will trash the engine.
Alcohol has a narrower tuning band for the fuel. Its easy to deal with and the cooler running makes it a less able do damage as quick.
The big trick is to start rich and lean it back down, rather than lean it down and rich it up as in tuning with gas.
Another big tuning aid would be a knock sensor so as to not detonate the engine apart. BUT we have all tuned engines ,with E85 you just have to be on your game.
I know Quick Fuel and Edelbrock are developing E85 carbs and I figure someone at BG is doing the same for the Demon line. But if BG does I hope they get the QC better as I have had several that were just plain garbge out of the box. The big problem is they are not getting the machine shavings cleaned out.
Any way tuning is the key.
Thats why i am protyping my FlexFI so as to have an aftermarket bolt on FI set up.
Lee Abel

[MonzaRacer]

The good reasons to run E85.
1: Renewable fuel source and if you know a farmer your paying him.
2: Cleaner burning allowing you to be ignored by EPA even though most hot rods are not in the cross hairs for the most part.
3: 105 Octane. 'nuff said!
4: I like the dare to be different theme and this is different.
5: My whole premise in hot rods was/is to do more with less ,adapt what I can use and discard old ,bad ideas.
can you tell me you want to sticjk with an external 37 amp alternator, no you dont, do you want to stick with points, no. We adapt SI and CSI alternators, we now have mini starters that are factory parts ,no off hand aftermarket small starters (which I personaly had problems with when I used them), we used to use blower motors to run water pumps, adapt electric fans from stockers, tweak HEI to comeptition level grade ingnition, over drive trans now considered standard operating parts.
Heck this is just another tool in our belt to make awesome cars AND be clean and mean for the environment.
would I give up 25 to 30 percent in fuel economy to gain a 20 percent increase in power production capability. I do believe that if you make an efficient engine that makes more power then its gonna be more economical.
My honest opinion is that if you can get in tune then the benifits out weigh the bad marks of which I can only find 2 that loom in my face, fuel availablility and the decrese in fuel economy. But with judicious tuning you are going to make better power for lass money than race fuel and be leagal to run even in a cat equipt late model car.
Lee

[CSI:QUINCY]

The good reasons to run E85.
1: Renewable fuel source and if you know a farmer your paying him.
2: Cleaner burning allowing you to be ignored by EPA even though most hot rods are not in the cross hairs for the most part.
3: 105 Octane. 'nuff said!
4: I like the dare to be different theme and this is different.
5: My whole premise in hot rods was/is to do more with less ,adapt what I can use and discard old ,bad ideas.
can you tell me you want to sticjk with an external 37 amp alternator, no you dont, do you want to stick with points, no. We adapt SI and CSI alternators, we now have mini starters that are factory parts ,no off hand aftermarket small starters (which I personaly had problems with when I used them), we used to use blower motors to run water pumps, adapt electric fans from stockers, tweak HEI to comeptition level grade ingnition, over drive trans now considered standard operating parts.
Heck this is just another tool in our belt to make awesome cars AND be clean and mean for the environment.
would I give up 25 to 30 percent in fuel economy to gain a 20 percent increase in power production capability. I do believe that if you make an efficient engine that makes more power then its gonna be more economical.
My honest opinion is that if you can get in tune then the benifits out weigh the bad marks of which I can only find 2 that loom in my face, fuel availablility and the decrese in fuel economy. But with judicious tuning you are going to make better power for lass money than race fuel and be leagal to run even in a cat equipt late model car.
Lee

coundn't have said it better (monzaracer) I am running e85 in my 235" dragster running 14/1 compresion. and buy this a the gas station for under $2.00 A GALLON WHEN RACING FUEL IS OVER $5.00 PER GALLON TO GET ENOUGH OCTAN TO RUNNING THAT MUCH COMPRESSION.

TRY USING THE LINK IN MY SIGNITURE TO FIND E85 CLOSE TO YOU.

[ProTouring442]

Some of the problems with E85 are:

For every 1.3 gallons of ethanol produced, 1 gallon of standard oil-based fuel is consumed.

Ethanol readily absorbs water. According to an article in the Boat US publication, "...it absorbs water, and will mix more easily with water than with gasoline. Up to 10% (in E-10) of your fuel could become a water-ethanol mix, and the liquid may undergo 'phase seperation,' forming a top layer of pure low-octane gas and a bottom layer of water-saturated ethanol." Based on the fact that this was written about E-10, I am guessing that the water-ethanol mix in E-85 could be as high as 85% of the fuel in your tank.

Other problems on our older and home-built cars might be compatability issues with O-rings, fuel sending units, fuel pumps, and other gaskets and seals.

I know that several motorcycle publications have commented on the water issues, as motorcycles are frequently stored for long periods. Our cars are frequently subjected to the same sort of longer term storage, usually in cool garages. These are exactly the sort of places where water contamination is most likely.

Just a few thoughts. If anyone knows of ways around them, please let me know as I think we will see more and more of these sorts of fuels around. Especaily if the experiments with carbon-dioxide scrubbing I saw on the Discovery Channel work out in the long run. There is a power plant where they run the CO2 through large water/algea filled tubes. The algea use the CO2, and produce oxygen. The resulting algea growth is siphoned off to be used as fuel, or converted to ethanol. the natural oils from the algea can be used as, well, oil.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "Inamorata"
www.FQuick.com/ProTouring442

[MarkM66]

I like the idea but no.

Not enough gas stations to support it. And once the government stops subsidising it's cost, it's going to be way to expensive.

[Steve1968LS2]

E85 is NOT all it's cracked up to be. It's a great way to lessen the use of oil, but all cars will never be able to switch over to it. Why?

Think of how much agriculture would have to be devoted to growing fuel for E85. For all, or even most, of the cars to run E85 I heard most of the farmland would have to be used.

I already read a piece where it has effected the cost of corn in Mexico and that increase is hurting the poor there (cost of corn goes up, cost of tortillas goes up and that's the basic foodstuff for the poor).

E85 is a short term bandaid. Besides, there's only ONE E85 gas station in all of California (last time I checked).

[MarkM66]

I already read a piece where it has effected the cost of corn in Mexico and that increase is hurting the poor there (cost of corn goes up, cost of tortillas goes up and that's the basic foodstuff for the poor).

I heard that too. The price of a bushel is at an all time high due to Ethanol productions, thus making the cost of all other corn made products increase.

http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/18173/

[MuscleRodz]

The bad:

E85 will absorb water as mentioned above which can cause corrosion in aluminum and rust in steel parts over time and requires different seals. All flex fuel vehicles have stainless fuel lines and plastic fuel tanks to combat this. The FAA won't let the avaition industry use any auto gas with ethanol in it due to its corrosive nature in the aluminum fuel systems and seals.

Mike

[Steve1968LS2]

People forget that every technology adhears to "the law of unintended consequences".

[DriverzInc]

Ethanol will never be widely adopted for one simple reason, money. Washington will never allow it.

I hear all this talk about corn. I read in several studies that corn is the LEAST ethanol yielding crop? If you want to produce high amounts of ethanol, sugar cane, or other (wheats?) is the way to go. Obviously, you all know, Brazil has been doing this for over a decade. If our government would get there heads out of their asses, and the oil company's hands out of their pocket books, ethanol would be made more readily available, and not just in it's bandaid mixture form of E85. That was the way it was explained to me. Set me straight if anyone else knows different. So yes, I would use it in my car. I also thought I read that ethanol has the potential to not only burn cleaner, but hotter? I have to find that article again. I thought I saved it. If anyone knows, please enlighten me.

[6'9"Witha69]

It has an effect here in America as well. The higher bushel price is impacting the livestock market and higher meat prices are expected. There was an entire US News article a few weeks back which laid it all out very well. The good, the bad, and the politics behind it all.

[Steve1968LS2]

Ethanol will never be widely adopted for one simple reason, money. Washington will never allow it.

I hear all this talk about corn. I read in several studies that corn is the LEAST ethanol yielding crop? If you want to produce high amounts of ethanol, sugar cane, or other (wheats?) is the way to go. Obviously, you all know, Brazil has been doing this for over a decade. If our government would get there heads out of their asses, and the oil company's hands out of their pocket books, ethanol would be made more readily available, and not just in it's bandaid mixture form of E85. That was the way it was explained to me. Set me straight if anyone else knows different. So yes, I would use it in my car. I also thought I read that ethanol has the potential to not only burn cleaner, but hotter? I have to find that article again. I thought I saved it. If anyone knows, please enlighten me.

How many cars in Brazil compared to how many cars in the US?

And how many other crops (for food) will be turned over to crops for E85? Sugar Cane will not grow in many areas where they plant corn. Besides, no matter what they plant it will still take up acerage previously used for food.

[EFI69Cam]

In Colorado much of the ethanol comes from beer waste. Coors and Bud both have huge breweries.
This raises the question as to whether or not all of Coors output should go to ethanol fuel, that stuff is nasty.

Making alcohol fuel from corn is not really productive, but there are other crops whose yield per acre of fuel is much higher. The fuel from these crops are oil based, and need diesel engines, but technology has improved them drastically over the last 10 years.

I don't care about E85, but I'd buy biodiesel if it was available closer to me.

[harshman]

"For every 1.3 gallons of ethanol produced, 1 gallon of standard oil-based fuel is consumed." - ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!!


For E85 to work it will still comes down to a demand issue. Not the demand by the government but entrepreneural work. You could circle the globe spouting the praises of clean” burning fuel all you want but if no one wants it, it aint gona fly. Reminiscent of the whole global warming thing – woops...political issues (not SCIENTIFIC).:enguard: :moon: Electric cars fall into this category.

[jaybee]

I've been running 10% Ethanol in everything except 2 strokes for over 25yrs. The only problems I've ever had were in vehicles I knew had never run alcohol. In them the Ethanol would dissolve any varnish in the system and I'd have to change 1-2 fuel filters in a few thousand miles to catch it all. Never any seal, hose, or corrosion problems, nor any water issues. I live in Iowa where the Spring season can be very humid with extreme temperature swings, just the thing for condensation. Yield continues to improve and alcohol production with current technology provides a net energy gain, reducing the amount of oil needed in the production process. Impact on livestock production will be reduced over the next few years, as new plants are going online that produce Ethanol and vegetable oil, with the waste being an almost pure protein granule that is more easily digestible than raw corn. Once you separate the protein, oil, and cellulose (Ethanol raw material) for specialized use the required acreage and price impact will be reduced.

Oh, and fire-breathing race cars have been running on Alcohol for decades. E85 is alcohol with just enough gasoline mixed in so that it fires in any weather. Who wouldn't like to brag that they're running race fuel on the street?

[CSI:QUINCY]

There Is A Differance Between What Race Cars Have Been Running On Than Ethonal. Methonal Is What Race Car Have Been Runningon For Years. Methonal Comes From Wood Not Corn. It Also Has More Btu's So You Would Make More Hp On Methonal Over Ethonal.

[dropit69]

i live in middle of corn country and alot of the farmers dont mind as its raising corn for them and makes them more money..Brazil can get 2 pickings of corn per year ..unlike the midwest so they have alot more corn to go around and im sure not as many cars..

[DriverzInc]

Here is that article I was looking for. A few paragraphs down it talks about the different sourches for Ethanol. Read under the "Production" heading, although the whole article is very informative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

[71dusterdan]

okay i have been in for sometime now. even if it isnt right for everyone and a cure for our problems it will be available to run cross country eventually. for everyone no, but you build for it why not. all 3 of my engines will be built for it the duster, my driver and my f250. racegas octane for pump gas prices is my factor. all 3 vehicles will be optimised for e85, and built to work with the negatives, as well with the positives. but i will acknowledge reading from several sources that we cannot produce enough for everyone to burn it. as for everyones finances and the effect the corn prices pose, hello, the price of gasoline and diesel has effected my budget, as well as heating oil, electricity, etc. a gallon of milk is about 20 cents a gallon more expensive to me just due to trucking costs, i have to make due, and nobody is worried about me. i know it doesnt sound real compassionate, but we ALL feel those same problems regardless of our financial means. Dan

[MonzaRacer]

For every 1.3 gallons of ethanol produced, 1 gallon of standard oil-based fuel is consumed.
This is wrong, period. to produce. Read this below from www.ethanol.org

A ways down towards the bottom of this article it relates to the "net energy balance" here are some answers. Read on:
ACE Ethanol 101:
Frequently Asked Questions
What is ethanol?
Ethanol is “ethyl alcohol,” 200-proof grain alcohol. An ethanol plant produces fuel-grade ethanol, and that ethanol
is then blended in a percentage with gasoline to make a finished motor fuel.
Terminology is important because the term “ethanol” means different things to different people:
• “Ethanol” is the 100% pure ethanol coming from the production facility.
• Sometimes people say “ethanol” and mean the blend of 10% ethanol / 90% gasoline called E10.
• Sometimes people say “ethanol” and mean the blend of 85% ethanol / 15% gasoline called E85.
Different definitions of “ethanol” can lead to confusion, such as the misunderstandings that “a special vehicle is
required to run on ethanol” or that “ethanol is only available at a small portion of the nation’s gas stations.” In
these cases, people say “ethanol” but actually mean the alternative fuel E85.
Will my vehicle run on ethanol-blended fuel?
All vehicles are “ethanol-capable” and can use a blend of up to 10% ethanol. This “E10” is a blend of 10%
ethanol / 90% unleaded gasoline and is the most common way ethanol is sold to motorists. Since the 1980s, all
automakers have covered the use of up to 10% ethanol under warranty, and no engine modifications are
necessary to use E10. E10 is a cleaner burning fuel than straight gasoline.
Can ethanol blends be used in small engines, such as boats, lawnmowers, or chainsaws?
Yes. Manufacturers of small engines realize that up to a 10% blend of ethanol is very common in gasoline, so
they make their engines compatible with this fuel.
What is E85? How do I know if my vehicle can use it?
E85 is not gasoline, but rather an alternative fuel comprised of 85% ethanol / 15% unleaded gasoline for use in
Flexible Fuel Vehicles (FFVs). These vehicles are truly “flexible” in that their owners have a choice whether to
use E85, any blend of ethanol up to that 85% level, or straight unleaded gasoline. On some models this comes
as an option, and on some it is a standard feature.
To identify whether a vehicle is flexible fuel, check the owners manual and inside the gas cap. Also, visit
www.ethanol.org/e85.html to link to a complete list of FFVs, including the new ’06 model year vehicles.
Can my vehicle run on E85 even if it’s not an FFV?
If your vehicle is not an FFV, use of any higher ethanol percentage than 10% is not covered by warranty. People
have reported that they blend higher percentages of ethanol in regular, unmodified vehicles. A pilot study
conducted earlier this year suggests that up to 30% ethanol could be used in a non-flex fuel vehicle, but more
research is required on this subject and we as an organization do not endorse this practice until further study is
done.
2
Can I convert my vehicle to use E85?
In theory, it is possible; in reality, it is difficult. A vehicle could be converted to operate on E85, but the challenge
would be converting it to be a truly flexible fuel vehicle, one that could operate on any blend of fuel up to the 85%
ethanol. There are no companies in the U.S. that sell conversion kits for vehicles to operate on E85. The good
news is that automakers are increasing their lineups of FFVs each model year, so whether you’re looking for a
new or used vehicle, they are available.
Where can I buy E85 in my area?
A link to a complete list of gas stations offering E85 can be found online at www.ethanol.org/e85.html. This site
has a searchable map that gives E85 pump locations by state. The number of stations offering E85 is increasing
at a rapid pace.
If gas contains ethanol, is it labeled that way on the pump?
An 85% blend of ethanol is always labeled at the pump because it is an alternative fuel for use only in flexible fuel
vehicles.
Because up to a 10% blend of ethanol can be used in any vehicle, in some areas it is labeled and in some it is
not. Each state legislates whether labeling is mandatory, voluntary, or not required when gasoline contains
ethanol. Many states have moved away from labeling ethanol, so it is not always possible to tell if you’re getting
ethanol-blended fuel at the pump.
The American Coalition for Ethanol supports the consumer’s right to know if gasoline contains ethanol, but we
don’t favor labels that appear more like a warning label or a poison sticker.
This can be detrimental because people will shy away from purchasing something they are not familiar with or
something that looks potentially harmful. If ethanol-blended fuel is labeled at the pump, it should be done in an
attractive way that shows consumers all of the benefits that ethanol offers.
A good analogy is the labeling of cigarettes. Labeling gasoline that it contains ethanol is like labeling cigarettes
that they contain paper – ethanol is the only part of gasoline that would not hurt you.
Is there any funding available to add E85 to my gas station or convenience store?
Yes, sometimes there is. The National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition is a non-profit association that promotes the
development of E85 vehicles and infrastructure. Contact them through www.e85fuel.com or by phone at (877)
485-8595.
The Energy Policy Act of 2005 contains a new federal tax credit to assist with the installation of equipment and
infrastructure to dispense E85 at retail outlets. This new incentive provides a 30 percent federal income tax
credit, up to a maximum of $30,000, to assist with the establishment of alternative fuel infrastructure, including
equipment necessary to dispense E85. This tax credit became effective in 2006 and is scheduled to expire
December 31, 2008. Contact the Internal Revenue Service for more information about this tax credit.
What storage and dispensing conversion procedures should I consider before offering E85 at my gas
station?
The technology for storing and dispensing gasoline can be applied to alcohol fuels such as E85 because alcohols
and alcohol blends, like gasoline, are liquid fuels at ambient pressures and temperatures. However, only E85-
compatible materials should be used in the storage and dispensing systems. Most operating problems with
ethanol-fueled vehicles have been traced to contaminated fuel. Consequently, choosing the right materials for
fuel storage and dispensing systems and following proper fuel handling procedures are crucial for successfully
operating ethanol-fueled vehicles. Although material research and testing is expected to continue, the parts and
materials discussed in this guidebook have performed well with E85. They can be obtained from your usual
supplier.
3
What is the ethanol “subsidy”?
Many are misinformed that ethanol producers receive a huge government subsidy. That is a myth. In fact,
ethanol’s “subsidy” is really a federal tax credit that goes to oil companies as an incentive to blend ethanol with
gasoline. This blender’s tax credit totals 51 cents per gallon of ethanol or 5.1 cents per gallon on E10 blends.
This benefit is a lower tax which not only serves as an incentive for oil companies to blend ethanol with gasoline,
but it also enables ethanol to compete with gasoline, even if it is higher priced. The benefit to petroleum
marketers is that they can offer a higher-quality, higher-octane fuel containing ethanol at a competitive price. The
benefit to taxpayers is that this tax credit is usually passed all the way back to the consumer in the form of lower
pump prices for higher octane ethanol enriched fuel.
What impact does ethanol have on gasoline prices?
Ethanol adds to the overall supply of motor fuel in the U.S. and helps keep pump prices competitive and
affordable. The blender’s tax credit is usually passed down to consumers in the form of more competitive prices
at the pump. According to the Consumer Federation of America, consumers who purchase gasoline blended with
10 percent ethanol could be saving as much as 8 cents per gallon compared to straight gasoline.
Does ethanol help reduce air pollution?
Yes. There is a significant reduction in both carbon monoxide and hydrocarbon tailpipe emissions when ethanol
is blended and used with gasoline in automobiles. Many cities and states across the nation take advantage of the
environmental benefits of ethanol, including Chicago, Denver, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, New York, and Los
Angeles.
According to the Department of Energy’s Argonne National Laboratory, ethanol-blended fuels reduced CO2-
equilvalent greenhouse gas emissions by 7.8 million tons in 2005, which has the effect of removing the annual
greenhouse gas emissions of over 1 million automobiles from the road.
What about ethanol’s impact on fuel economy?
Critics of ethanol often allege that because ethanol contains fewer British Thermal Units (BTUs) of energy,
ethanol-blended fuel has a negative impact on gas mileage. In reality, variables such as speed, stop-and-go
driving, tire pressure, and the weather’s effect on driving conditions have a much greater impact on fuel economy
than what fuel you use in your engine.
In 2005, ACE conducted a study comparing gas mileage between unleaded and E10, E20, and E30. On average,
the difference between straight unleaded and E10 was only 1.5% - a negligible amount. Some believe that lower
BTU value has a one-to-one impact on fuel economy – this research proves that is not the case. In light of this
finding, more research is underway to examine the fuel economy of E85.
What is ethanol made from?
The majority of ethanol is made from corn, but it can also be made from many other crops including wheat, barley,
milo/sorghum, potatoes, etc. New technology will allow ethanol to be made from “cellulosic” feedstocks, including
corn stalks, grain straw, paper pulp, municipal solid waste, switchgrass, and other sources.
How is ethanol made?
Ethanol is produced by taking the starch or sugar portion of the corn and fermenting it. The fermented starch is
then distilled into alcohol. The excess water is removed so the resulting ethyl alcohol (ethanol) is very pure – 200
proof.
Only the starch portion of the corn, which is about 70% of the kernel, is made into ethanol. The remaining portion
is left over in the form of a co-product called distillers grain. This is a highly nutritious animal feed that contains all
the remaining fats, oils, and proteins after the starch is taken out and converted to ethanol.
4
How many gallons of ethanol can be made from a bushel of corn?
With today’s technology, one bushel of corn yields 2.8 gallons of ethanol. And that number is constantly
increasing. Just a few years ago, that number was closer to 2.5 gallons per bushel of corn.
How many bushels of corn are needed for a typical ethanol plant? How many acres of corn would be
needed to satisfy that demand?
An “average” ethanol plant today might be able to produce 50 million gallons of ethanol annually. A plant this size
would require approximately 18 million bushels of corn. At the 2004 national corn crop average yield of 140
bushels per acre, approximately 128,500 acres of corn would be needed to supply the ethanol plant.
How much of the nation’s corn crop is used for ethanol production?
In 2004, 1.26 billion bushels of corn went to ethanol production – about 12% of the nation’s total crop. That figure
rose to 14% for the ’05 corn crop – about 1.6 billion bushels of an 11.1 billion bushel crop. As the nation’s ethanol
production climbs, some bushels from the export category will likely shift over into ethanol production.
Also, about 11% of the nation’s sorghum crop was used as a feedstock for ethanol production in ‘04. Grain
sorghum is used as a feedstock for ethanol production, mainly in areas on the periphery of the Corn Belt such as
Kansas and western Nebraska.
Why should we use grain such as corn for fuel when people are hungry throughout the world?
Corn used for ethanol production would otherwise be fed to livestock or used for export markets, yet some
suggest that it is immoral to use corn for fuel instead of food. Clearly there is a world hunger problem, but it is not
appropriate to fix blame for world hunger on farmers and U.S. ethanol producers. The world produces ample
crops containing the proteins and nutrients needed to feed the world’s population. However, there are distribution
bottlenecks that hamper these supplies of food from reaching those in need. Additionally, corrupt governments
and wars cause havoc and disrupt the otherwise safe, efficient, and peaceful provision of food to hungry people.
What is cellulosic ethanol?
Cellulosic biomass, dubbed the most abundant material on earth, holds tremendous promise as a feedstock for
ethanol production due to its widespread availability and potential for high fuel yields.
Examples of sources for cellulosic ethanol include corn stover (the stalks and husks left over after harvest), wheat
and barley straw, sugarcane or rice bagasse, sawdust, paper pulp, small diameter trees, and dedicated energy
crops such as switchgrass and other fast-growing grasses.
How is cellulosic ethanol made?
As with producing ethanol from grain, processing cellulosic sources extracts the fermentable sugars from the
feedstock for distillation into alcohol. Unlike in grain, the sugars in cellulose are locked in complex carbohydrates
called polysaccharides, or long chains of simple sugars. Separating these complex structures into fermentable
sugars is essential to the efficient and economical production of cellulosic ethanol.
Is the ethanol from corn and cellulose the same?
Yes, the ethanol produced from corn or milo and the ethanol produced from cellulose are chemically identical.
What is switchgrass? Why is it a good potential source for ethanol?
Switchgrass is one source likely to be tapped for ethanol production because of its potential for high fuel yields,
hardiness, and ability to be grown in diverse areas. Switchgrass’ long root system – actually a fifty-fifty split
above ground and below – helps keep carbon in the ground, improving soil quality. It is drought-tolerant, grows
well even on marginal land, and doesn’t require heavy fertilizing.
5
How close is cellulosic ethanol to being commercialized?
The technology to create cellulosic ethanol is available today, and is in the early stages of commercialization.
Though most of the pieces are in place, the key is to continue to make it more cost-effective and economically
competitive. Some estimate the technology is within 5 to 10 years of being fully commercialized.

What does “net energy balance” mean? What is ethanol’s energy balance?
Net energy balance is a term used to describe how much energy is needed to produce a product versus how
much energy that product provides. Two professors that are long-time critics of ethanol claim that ethanol has a
negative energy balance, meaning more energy is required to produce ethanol than ethanol offers as a motor
fuel.
This is not true. Scientific study after study has proven ethanol’s energy balance to clearly be positive. The latest
USDA figures show that ethanol made from the drymill process provides at least 77% more energy as a fuel than
the process it takes to make it.
The bottom line is that it takes about 35,000 BTUs (British Thermal Units) of energy to create a gallon of ethanol,
and that gallon of ethanol contains at least 77,000 BTUs of energy.
How much oil can ethanol really displace?
Research has determined that 1 barrel of ethanol (1 barrel = 42 gallons) can displace 1.2 barrels of petroleum at
the refinery.
In 2005 the U.S. produced 4 billion gallons of ethanol, which equates to about 3% of the country’s total gasoline
consumption (140 billion gallons per year). This is a small percentage, but a critically important one. Every gallon
of ethanol we can make and use means we are less dependent upon oil and more dependent upon clean,
renewable, homegrown energy sources.

[MonzaRacer]

One thing ,if you read it right the waste isnt waste its 26 percent protein distillers dried grains and its good for cattle feed.
This means that you can use prety much all of the production from fermentation/distillation can be used, the carbon dioxide produced from the fermnting process can be collected and sold, the left overs can feed cattle, the cattle can make methane to run the distilation process. You can also use an incinerator process to make heat too.
The big thing for your system is to not let it run super low and sit. Use a fuel system that is closed rather than vented to the atmosphere. did you know that if you use 50 gallons a week of fuel in average climate of 70 degrees over one year and have an open fuel system vented to the air you will loose as little as 25 gallons of raw fuel on a minimum and you can loose as much as 200 gallons.
Fact , you can raise your fuel mileage by a minimum of 1 mpg by simply having a proper vapor recovery system.
Alcohol DOES NOT HAVE A NEGATIVE ENERGY RETURN FROM PRODUCTION.
The neat thing is I have seen a small scale cellulosic distillery and the fella used his grass clipings. He made enough fuel to race every weekend. He used one 500 gallon tank of propane over the complete race season and he ran 3 tracks last year. every weekend and never bought on gallon of extra fuel.
Anyone wants to see some true facts go to www.ethanol.org for some true facts.
Good luck to you all.
Lee Abel
AFTERMARKET PERFORMANCE

[71dusterdan]

rock on monza racer, i appreciate you putting that out there. i have been doing my homework, and have seen alot of that before. i cant find any negatives there. just goes to show the propaganda machine can be used both ways. thanks for your post. Dan

[Fuelie Fan]

i can only really debunk the one point in monza's link that I know for sure: fuel economy IS affected. I can't believe they'd suggest that it isn't a serious effect when going from gas to E85. Even using their data and extrapolating it (which is DANGEROUS), that going from gas to E10 (about 4% less energy) resulted in only 1.5% less economy, going to E85 (about 45% less energy) is going to cut your economy by 17%. That's pretty substantial. It is also overly optimistic! Yes, driving habit can ALSO affect economy, but that's a total red herring. If you changed habits AND stuck with gas, you'd be saving even more fuel.

I can only wonder, therefore, how much twisting and misdirection is present in the rest of that text, being uninformed enough not to be sure for myself.

[bingham72]

Anyone wants to see some true facts go to www.ethanol.org (http://www.ethanol.org) for some true facts

I sure it's an unbiased source, but it absolutely affects gas mileage. In the end, the cost is cheaper than paying for ethanol in you daily driver.
However, it could definately be a big difference for a race car where it can be as an alternative to race gas.

Long term, the solution is to cut down on consumption. PERIOD. By a hybrid for your DD.

[barraza]

Anyone wants to see some true facts go to www.ethanol.org (http://www.ethanol.org) for some true facts.

The American Coalition for Ethanol (ACE) that runs that website is organized to promote and expand the development of the ethanol industry, not exactly an unbiased source.

Their waffling on the fuel milage issue telling, as is the dance they do trying to justify the tax credit ethanol receives.

Bottom line is that it would be great to have an alternative to oil for our gasoline needs, but ethanol isn't a cure all, especially in older vehicles. Worthy of further research and development but not going to be a viable alternative until the price of oil goes up quite a bit. Despite the runup in price we have seen in the recent past, I believe that oil producing nations will limit increases to keep gas prices under what will make ethanol economically practical.

[jaybee]

CSI, yes I'm aware that racing vehicles normally run Methanol rather than Ethanol, but the two Alcohols are very similar. Enough so for the Indy Racing League will run Ethanol exclusively this year without any fundamental changes in the hardware.

Barraza, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see oil producing nations keep the price below that which will allow this to be justifiable purely on an economic basis. In spite of that there seems to be momentum in the market right now. The more the technology and infrastructure develops the less difference in price it will take to be truly competitive.

I'd still love to build a performance engine spec'd for E85, if it wasn't going beyond the immediate area or the geographic reach or the product hits a level where you can get it wherever you decide to go.

[bookends]

isn't it true that more energy is produced from a gallon of gasoline vs. a gallon of ethanol or methanol. if so would you really see a savings due to the fact you'd have to refuel more often than with gasoline? I agree we need to find alternative fuels but it as to be cost effective as well or it won't happen.

[71dusterdan]

you know some of you guys are missing a major point, go buy a gallon of racegas with 105 octane. you can buy this stuff for the price of pumpgas piss. maybe it isnt for your daily driver, but my vehicles after i build to take advantage of the octane, i'll give up a few mph for the increase in efficiency and subsequently, power you reap from increased compression. for some really dumb reason i thought we were a bunch of horsepower junkies that always want more. i cant wait to see what kind of torque my 400 ford makes in my f250, off e85, i'm gonna be lining up at the local trailer park, moving doublewides for easy chicks. hey it is my fantasy , let me tell it! lol, Dan

[MonzaRacer]

Ok as for the fuel mileage yes you lose mileage but you have to remember you are trading off approximately 20 to 25 percent lower fuel mileage BUT your able to run more compression and be more aggresive on tuning. The ethanol is cleaner burning, less emissions and your engine will last longer as there is less carbon build up inside.
Now you all jump on the band wagon of ohh poo this and poo that.
But it does clean up the emissions and like it says you can run up to 30 percent (I have seen people figure out the ration to run 50/50 true content) with no major mods.
I for one am looking to the future.
Now did you all know that for the most part till the world wars , over in Europe they all used ethanol for a lot of steam and internal combustion engines. The war forced the Allies into running all the same fuel.
You guys need to read up a little more on it because the good things it can do and the positive benifits are numerous.
I found a book on building your own still a few years back, I started looking into using Ethanol for a different fuel source as my family has a farm. I remember back when my grandfather was paid by the government to NOT plant land in crops. See I would like to see all farmers getting paid good money for starch/sugar based crops to be distilled.
I am not saying that we should try to make every car run on E85 but if we just had a 20 percent of the fuel made of alcohol then thats 20 percent of pertroleum imports we arent burning AND we are giving money to our farmers instead of someone overseas.
In South America they have been running ethanol for 30 plus years in cars.
If we put the might of our chosen sport/recreation behind this fuel source it would give more jobs in the US and make the farmers more profitable. They can reise sorgum, corn, sugar beets, switch grass and other things.
Celulosic ethanol process can be made more efficient if the demand goes up.
Think of it ANYTHING that can be fermented can make ethanol.
I like the fact that if I got enough people together to do a group buy I could start a distribution of barreled E85 for racers and people using E85 in areas that dont have it.
Heck my race fuel distributor can get ethanol and empty barrels too but the demand isnt there YET.
I get my FlexFI done then I wont have problems selling it as the car can run anything then.
E85 is a good idea and its here so why not use it.
Hey duster ill give you a ring when I get my FlexFI done.
Think about it,,, run anything and hardly have to touch anything to use either or any mix in between.
Lee Abel

[WS6]

I think having E85 as a viable option is a great idea. Competition will drive fuel prices down for all vehicles whether they run gas or E85. It could help lessen our dependance on foreign oil. Besides, why pay a farmer to trash his crop when they can use it for fuel?

Personally though, I am more interested in biodiesel for the simple fact that the diesel engine is a far more efficient engine and it's a superior engine to a gas engine really. No gas engine can come close to the power output and fuel economy of a diesel. They are making leaps and bounds in technology for the diesels. Notice how they are all quiet now? Better fuel economy and much less emissions was also a great side effect to them being quieter. My newest infatuation is to read diesel power magazine. Those trucks make me drool.

No matter what, dependance on hydrocarbon burning vehicles must be lowered for anything significant to occur. Plug in hybrids may play a large role in that for many city people.

Preventing Al Gore from speaking will help lower hot gas emissions too

[Zee]

I think one big issue that most do not follow is that we as consumers never really "see" the full cost of a gallon of gasoline. By the time your factor in the cost of the US protecting the supply of middle eastern oil on behalf of the rest of the world, the environmental cost associated with its use and the impact it has on our trade deficits, foreign policies etc, E85 may very well be a bargain.

Also, I find it amazing that people look for a magic bullet. Well, one is unlikely to be found in our lifetime (OK, maybe just mine) but that is no excuse for not using some combination of biodiesel, E85, hybrid-electric and gasoline to fulfill our short run energy needs. Each has proper applications and I can see no reason that multiple technologies cannot co-exist on the roads. Combine the multi fuel approach with a serious energy policy focused on decreasing gasoline consumption through incentives and penalties, I think many of our overseas "issues" will start to disappear and we could get back to building muscle cars.

[Fuelie Fan]

I'll begin by saying that I agree with Zee, the more alternatives we explore, the better.

On the emissions subject:
Ethanol can substantially reduce HC and CO emissions. CO2 remains relatively steady. Aldehyde, methane, and N2O emissions, however, are increased. Aldehydes are toxic and methane/N20 are greenhouse gases. It's definitely not the silver bullet. It cures some problems and creates others.

The performance discussion and eco-friendliness are 2 discussions, in my view. Maybe the thread should be split?

[Bandit]

105 octane for the price of pump gas? And that cool alcohol-burn smell to boot? What's not to like? Heck yes I would run it in my *weekend warrior* but not in a daily driver at this point.
The only reson I don't go out and upgrade my fuel system and bump up my CR today is that I can't get the stuff where I currently reside. :crying:

[bingham72]

So as it would pertain to a hotrod only, someone "in the know" break this down for me.
For high compression engines, IS E85 a viable substitute in terms of horsepower?
What is the actual trade off? ie. in a 14to1 engine, making 600hp on race fuel, how much E85 per gallon of gasoline does it take to make the same horsepower?

[MonzaRacer]

OK so we have some other products coming out BUT in much lesser amounts and for the most part a properly installed E85 friendly Cat system can reduce the emissions even more.
If I remember chemistry right (and several papers listed by EPA too) that the majority of byproducts from Ethanol is CO2 and water, now CO2 is converted back to oxygen by plants so thats a wash ,especially considering that we are not talking about replacing ALL of the gasoline just part of it.
As for the differences the amount of noxious pollutants let off by a car burning both fuels over a set distance, allowing for the fact that the E85 vehicle will use roughly 25 percent more i nthe same trip, the E85 car will emit roughly 70 percent less environmentally harmful emissions over the gasoline fuel vehicle.
BUT the fact that (and I believe they set that test up over 1000 miles) in production of both fuels the E85 produced something like 78 percent less average emissions(allowing for the vapor loss from transportation and all of the emissions from a normal gasolin refinery) BEFORE being burnt in car.
Another little known fact that oxides of nitrogen (NOX) break down, for the most part, in the lower atmosphere. The worst NOX production that gets into higher atmosphere is from powerplants smoke stacks.
Now even when you figure the other exhaust output from the average E85 car there is so much less bad emissions that what ever comes out is negligible. you ought to see an E85 car on a 5 gas analyzer. The numbers are very low, compared to gasoline, in comparrison to what the EPA regulates. AND for the most part the byproducts from Ethanol production are useable for other environmently friendly uses.
OH yeah some scientist in England figured out that a cow releases more methane in a year than the E85 car would over a 5 year period of time. And the car still has a cat on it so the output is even lower than you can complain about.
Face it you want to bash E85 ,you cant knock the benefits, it DOES work, it is good for the environment, it is good for the American economy, and its renewable as the gasoline you use isnt and will never be reproduced.
It has to many goods to try and kill it, and since MTBE is now banned from gasoline our country will be makking more Ethanol as it is a cleaner option for an oxegenate for fuel. All fuel is goingto be E10, MTBE is phased out as it isnt completely burnt and can get into the local water table and poison it. If you put ethanol in water it simply dilutes and breaks down, you can still drink it. Put gasoline or MTBE in water and drink it and you can die or have bad medical problems.
For the same reason lead was removed so is MTBE, and for the most part I love E10 my truck gets better mileage nad I think it runs better.
The other thing is that we can run 11 or 12 to one compression and still use pump fuel.
If for every point (1.0) you lower compression yuo lose 5 to 6 percent then you can get that back by raising your compression.
Think of this, if you raise your power production in exact same engines by 10 percent that would take a 500 hp engione to 550, and I do believe that you would gain some of thelost fuel economy back as it would take a percentage less throttle opening to run what you would have before raising the compression and figure this, if you can set up your hot rod as a sflex fuel vehicle you would loose power but get your economy back if you used plain old premium, but you clean your engine back up by running anothertank of E85 through it.
Besides if you have it around and had say a weekend warrior to play with and could run 13 or 14 to 1 on the E85 (that high I would assume aluminum heads) and only pay 2 bucks for fuel AND know that if they tried to emissions test it your car would pass with flying colors.
OR you buy 5 to 7 dollars a gallon race fuel and the emissions cops would flag you so quick you couldnt blink before getting your registration yanked(provided its dependant on emission tests).
I will run E85 and cost less to run my car over your car on race fuel and heck I can have a second carb for gasoline and still have fun.
I figured up what a barrel of race fuel costs plus barrel deposit plus carrying it around, plus all the other stuff, it isnt worth the problems.
I can have my cans full from the station ,and the car full and still have money for food, tshirts and other stuff, AND be kind to the environment over running 5 or 6 dollar a gallon leaded race fuel. And if needed I can add some octane boost and use 93 octane Sunoco for times I cant get E85.
I figure that after 2 barrels of race fuel (assuming high compression ) at 6 bucks a gallon I can have 2 carbs and a few tools and swap carbs in 20 minutes or less and be back having fun, albeit running a little less hard.
And all for the price of 2 barrels of race fuel (remember you have to have one carb so it only costs the differencr to have the second one. And most of the regular parts available now are completely compatible with ethanol.
Sorry this is real long but the massive amounts of benefits are far outweighing the few detriments.
And the fact its helping farmers,,,, just a great little add on.
Lee

[Fuelie Fan]

I'm not here to bash E85. I will reiterate that I have no problem with its performance benefits. I used E85 in our Formula SAE car while in college. I think a flex system would be great so that people could run "race gas" equivalent fuel on weekends. I just don't think it'll be a long term solution.

Can you clarify your stance on the CO2 production? Are you saying the CO2 produced is not an issue because most of it gets reabsorbed by plants and enters into a cycle as thas plants get turned back into fuel? Or are you just saying it's a "wash" with typical gasoline production?

[MonzaRacer]

Ok so we cant call it a wash BUT CO2 is absorbed my plants, it does not destroy ozone like CO(carbon monoxide) which will strip away the 3 oxygen molecule from ozone (O3) also the other benefits from production and use DO give the fuel a big pass.
Also there are companies that have converters speced to E85 and those do "scrub " the exhaust even better.
See everyone wants point by point positives from someone like me but going on line, and doing some research would let you read more and in a more consise manner than I can relate.
The E85 or even straight Ethanol is far and above a better energy source than gasoline, the reason for it being E85 is to keep the "masses" from trying to drink it and it does increase to cold driveability blended.
Figure this, to produce Ethanol the by products are CO2 (collectable for carbonation,refrigeration and other things)and distillers dried grains (cattle feed). There is virtually no waste (not saying there isnt some type of non recoverable waste but its most generally biodegradeable) from the process.
The output from the internal combustion engine on E85 or E100 is so far down on the list that as a motor fuel its literally the best we have over Hydrogen.
There are people who used Propane but it still had environmental deficiencies over Ethanol.
I will never tell anyone that E85 will cure our energy ills BUT it can take a big chunk of use out of the oil importation infrastructure and its renewable, its made from local crops (of which there are many) and if its made from grains it can produce distillers dried grains which allows us to use part of it for fuel production, and the dried part as a food source for animals(and unless your vegan) for food.
The exhaust out put from an internal combustion engine will emit certain byproducts and I still stand by the fact that the 2 biggest results from E85 use is CO2 and water, Both can be reused and not actually do as much ahrm as the HC(unburned hydocarbons) and CO(carbon Monoxide) which can and DOES destroy ozone(O3).
also the minor amounts of "other" combustion byproducts from its use are negligible.
So here are the big points that sold me years ago:
1: Renewable base production components (corn ,sorgum,sugar beets,etc)
2: Any amount of land we have that can be farmed can produce Ethanol based fuels which means no government plans to idle tillable lands wasting our tax dollars
3: According to what I have researched that the new process of using celulosic biomass for Ethanol production also allows the by product to be used in paper and construction so the result is waste that is useable.
4:The resultant emission from burning it is a majority of water and carbon dioxide, and such carbon dioxide is used by plants to grow and make oxygen,
5: It has a better octane rating for less cost per gallon
6: Its byproducts from production is negligible for the most part as a lot of that is reuseable (the CO2 and the Distillers dried grains or celulosic residue for other product production)
7:My engine will last longer as the fuel carries less carbon to buildup and cause engine wear and it will run cleaner with less maintenance
8:Local communities giving limited tax breaks to distillery production, grainery production, maybe even increased shipping infrastructure(ie more trucking jobs and it can be made a condition of contracts to use biodiesel atleast for a percentage of thier fuels. The locals get more construction jobs, local suppliers can provide certain suppies and services.
9: This is a list that has many more points but for the most part is I can see the big picture that if we push it the E85 use will come to the fore front of our sport and allow us to brand our cars as environmentally friendly.
10: According to one noted E85 proponent, his research made light of the fact that you release more N2O(NOX or Oxides of Nitrogen) on a single run with a 100 hp system through the 1/4 mile including an estimated purge, that 25,000 of E85 being burnt. And he also pointed out that our atmosphere is comprised of only 21 percent oxynege and the one of the other major components is nitrogen.

Also as far as NOX is related it only has detrimental attributes in certain areas (like LA or other big cities). In the area that I live there used to be a rather large fruit and produce farm that ran DOWN WIND of a power plant to benefit from the potash and nitrogen (NOX) output. This farm started going broke after he started having to add more fertilizers and such out of pocket. This place used to be a millon dollar a year buisness and would hire hundereds of local people for picking and orchard care. Now they barely hire 25 people. The company started having problems after the EPA " cleaned up" the smoke stack and the farmers around also found that thier costs went up.
Certain clean ups are needed but some things are hurting as much as helping.
The final note on this is that if we embrace this tool in our performance arsenal and not bash or denigrate it so as to push it to the back burner wecan hold it up as a good thing and say" Hey look we have 3 million hotrods and approximately 300,000 already using this cleaner burning fuel that come from a renewable source" or what ever numbers we have to plug in to the phrase.
Nit pick this and people will get turned off.
Using N2O for power production was bashed at first and now most of us just try to figure out where are system will add it to our cars.
E85 is cleaner, is better for the environment, is better for the American economy and I am sure there are more for the list.
Will it fix anything ,no but it can be one weapon in our arsenal to help and not hurt. Virtually nothing from it pollutes, unlike crude oil, it is made from a renewable source, which i might add that more crops help cool the surface of the earth, slowing global warming, and thats a fact.
Oh and while we will still need oil production but if its not being used for fuel we can become less dependant on it.
Lee

[Damn True]

Two words:

Fast Diesel

[KsKustoms]

i can only really debunk the one point in monza's link that I know for sure: fuel economy IS affected. I can't believe they'd suggest that it isn't a serious effect when going from gas to E85. Even using their data and extrapolating it (which is DANGEROUS), that going from gas to E10 (about 4% less energy) resulted in only 1.5% less economy, going to E85 (about 45% less energy) is going to cut your economy by 17%. That's pretty substantial. It is also overly optimistic! Yes, driving habit can ALSO affect economy, but that's a total red herring. If you changed habits AND stuck with gas, you'd be saving even more fuel.

I can only wonder, therefore, how much twisting and misdirection is present in the rest of that text, being uninformed enough not to be sure for myself.

This is a big issue. Even though it is 110 octain, it produces less power. It cost more to buy per gallon and the cars burn more of it per mile therefore the cost of running it is exponentially higher

[LowBuckX]

This is a big issue. Even though it is 110 octain, it produces less power. It cost more to buy per gallon and the cars burn more of it per mile therefore the cost of running it is exponentially higher
Your missing a point here. E85 is 105 octane abd cost the same as regular unleaded. 105 octane race gas cost $5.00 a gallon.

If you bump up your compression to make full use of the 105 octane then you gain back a little of the lost milage. I think it would be great to convert our rods to run a "MORE" eco friendly fuel.

Maybe if everyone did it then the EPA would get off our arses and stop trying to kill our classics.

[MonzaRacer]

No it doesnt produce less power it just takes more fuel to produce the SAME power.
E85 is now regulated to an average of 105 octanes but this depends on the mix ratio according to the amount of gasoline.
See the reason it takes more to run per mile (average anywhere from 20 percent to 30 percent all engine parameters the same) that is because it roughly 30 percent more to make same power.
The biggest problem is everyone thinks it higher priced but it isnt around here.
Now if you dont have a local distributor voluntarily shippin it in and having the pump in the area(some areas are now regulating that certain size chains HAVE to have a pump selling E85 so if they have to bring it in from farther away, maintain the storage, and they do have to keep track of the ambient contamination which (to see if it has absorbed too much water) can be tedious and time consuming.
As for being expotentially higher no,,, just the fact that say you get 35 mpg with your ride and the T56 then you might get as bad as 24.5 (assuming a 30 percent loss in mileage but this is doubtful for a percentage loss) but for the most part I have seen the worst of 27 percent(as reported in a FlexFuel Tahoe by Consumer Reports) but in a car I helped tune last year we had a 396 cu in SBC with AFR 195 heads and 11.9 to 1 and we tuned it to run with E85 from a 950 HP, and he ran a TKO600 and 373 gears in a 3670 lb car and he lost approx, 18 percent, it made 523 hp on gas and on E85 it turned 520 hp.
basicly the same carb but we had to change the metering blocks and the needle seats. will EVERY car make a good conversion, no but if you watch your Ps and Qs then you can tune this to run great and not loose too much AND it allows you to keep the higher compression, tune for max power and still run good and be environmetally friendly.
Around here we had E85 as the local station just built a new building and put in E85. Premium gasoline is around $2.399 and the E85 $2.149.
So to go the same distance (using an abysmal 30 percent increase in fuel to go same) for 10 gallons of 93 octane premium fuel $23.99 and for 13 gallons of 105 octane E85 is $27.94, so we are talking less than $5.00 difference and this is a small price to pay for being cleaner and besides if you had to try to run all the time with nearly 12 to 1 compression then you would be buying $3.95 a gallon racing unleaded pluss you have 2 taxes added in of $0.18 and $0.18 (at least in Indiana) and this is already added into regular pump gas but not on barreled fuel, so you are paying $4.13 plus having to ship, store and even pay a $25.00 a barrel deposit. And then you have to carry it.
So you get to pay 16 percent more, BUT be cleaner, be more economicly friendly(more money in US farmers pockets) and gee whiz I still live by the dare to be different credo.
You dont like it so be it but when it does get more prevailent and i drive up in my FlexFI ran car I can say to anyone lets see if you can do what I do, you wont be able too.
But I will. and I know that the year my family plants corn on the family farm the local grain prcessing plant will buy it and we will have more local money in the economy.
Till I get a chance to finish and tune my FlexFI I will have 2 carbs and run both super and E85 and heck I may just use E85 and straight gas mixed and just live with a slightly rich car but I wont, Ill just build 2 carbs.
As a person selling parts for custom parts i would have figure you would try to embrasse it as a usefull tool.
Now I dont know what it cost in your area or if it is in your area but premium is high too.
It isnt expontetially higher but any one using it should expect to pay a little more to go the same distance, but it will be cleaner and it will clean your engine of carbon build up too.
My truck has increased in mileage since the change from gas with MTBE to E10.
Another point that I made is that even burning more its a renewable fuel source, its cleaner burning and I think it gives me a little edge over others.
Lee

[LowBuckX]

in a car I helped tune last year we had a 396 cu in SBC with AFR 195 heads and 11.9 to 1 and we tuned it to run with E85 from a 950 HP, and he ran a TKO600 and 373 gears in a 3670 lb car and he lost approx, 18 percent, it made 523 hp on gas and on E85 it turned 520 hp.
basicly the same carb but
Lee

523 on pump gas ($2.39gallon) or racing fuel($5.00 gallon)? Just to beclear.

[Fuelie Fan]

"E85 is far and above a better energy source." No it is not. It is less energy dense than gasoline, diesel, CNG, or LPG. In fact, from a pure energy standpoint, it's one of the worst.

The main by-products of gasoline combustion are ALSO CO2 and water vapor. In fact, the main combustion byproducts of ANY hydrocarbon combustion are CO2 and water. We are just as likely to "recapture CO2" for refrigeration from current vehicles as we are by going to Ethanol. However, i haven't heard of anyone doing this.

Even including the reabsorbtion by plant life in the ethanol cycle, well-to-wheel reduction of CO2 is only 6 to 7 percent. By comparison, LPG lowers CO2 production by 24%. So, your suggestion that propane is dirtier is also at least partially flawed. I don't know whether propane has it's own specific emissions challenges, I'd have to do more research.

I can't say that I'm on board with your suggestion that a little NOx production can be a good thing. Also, NOx is NOT N2O. NOx stands for two different compounds, NO2 and NO3. The x signifies the different subscripts of those compounds.

[harshman]

My .02 again.


Here's the thing... nobody wants it. It hasn't proven itself to be the fuel of choice. There isn't any desire to switch from regular fuel. No demand on a poor product. Again, until a product comes out and blows the shorts off of the current fuels, nobody will be interested. If there was a shortage of oil then the demand would be there to invent something. There isn't an oil shortage and thus no demand. I'd suggest to stop trying to reinvent the classics and the lame attempt to shun the environmentalists away from our sport and genuinely expose them for who they are – intolerable of other people.


If you want to drive a hybrid car because it makes you sleep better at night, have at it. I'm all for keeping the environment clean – I pick up trash and what not, however do not push the global warming junk on us without scientific proof. You will have a fight on your hands.

[LowBuckX]

(political portions of the post removed)

And What the hell happened The Pro-Touring niche used to be underground forward thinkers. Now It seems to be a bunch of stuck in the past pro-streeters trying to follow a fad. Its ashame.

[Damn True]

There is a tremendous difference between forward thinking innovation and throwing large sums of money to "early adopt" a technology that has no real future. E85 is the Betamax of alternative fuels.

[LowBuckX]

BetaMAx was superior to VHS .But VHS was cheaper and had exstended playing time.

[Damn True]

How's that "better" Betamax working out?

Netscape was supposed to better too.

I'm not dumping money into either of them.

[MonzaRacer]

HMM
So E85 is the betamax of fuels.
Then why would domestic and forien manufacturers spend BILLIONS researching the fuel as a source AND Ford and GM have stepped up to the bar and sell such fueled cars.
Oxides of Nitrogen are less harmful than most think I would be more worried over CO and HC.
Now if you live in a big city with polution yes they do have NOX problems BUT that isnt strictly from an auto point of view.
As for E85 being a better or worse fuel source, I feel and so do many proponenets of E85 that for the fact the amount of unuseable byproduct from production.
The production of propane is by it self a a dirtier process. Dont get me wrong I have helped tune CNG/LPG setups but it is a major pain in the A$$. It isnt as convienent as pulling into a gas station and filling my tank.
Is E85 a workable fuel, does it give back more than it takes to produce and is it cleaner than gasoline? Yes on all counts.
The byproducts of the fermentation process is Distillers Dried Grains, the crust that gets pulled off that can be used to start a new batch of mash, CO2 production from the vats CAN be collected and used and because of the current technology the heat used for distillation is collected for less heat loss.
I believe ( I am looking for the actual number) that somewhere between 83 and 92 percent of the leftovers from making Ethanol is recovered and used.
To try and down play E85 is simply short sided. Is it in the delivery system and it will take time to spread nation wide.
Will it cure all our ills but you nit pick and forgetthat it had mutiple benefits and can be used by us, performance enthusiasts, easy as swaping a a carb and plugs, and maybe a few rubber lines and such.
Several companies are developing over the counter carbs for E85 and I would guess that at least 95 percent of the fuel system aprts out there can handle Ethanol with little or no degradiation in life or performance.
I proved that just the running part (provided you have it set up) didnt cost large amounts to run.
I called a friend today and he has a 01 Mustang with a transplanted 3.0 V6 from a Ranger that was flex fuel, he used a small turbo and the appropriate tuning software and he has to date gotten a very nice 32 mpg and so far it has made a real world 328 hp at the rear wheels and so far he has ate 2 sets of rear gears (spiders exploding) and is waiting on a new round of parts to beef the diff up. Now 328 hp from a flex fueled vehicle is pretty sweet . Now you have to figure if you take the same power production and use the same power per liter it would be over 620 hp for a 5.7 liter engine.
So try to bash it but you cant.Its merits will stand on themselves.
It does work , it has benefits and thye cannot be swept away.
The emissions issues are slight and the fact that these can be addressed with tuning and such (for regulated cars) make it even more viable.
I remember a scant, what 10 or so years ago that Air Ride was looked upon as a fad for show cars and now we have cars burning up the tracks with ,oh wait, Air Ride.
Lets give it a chance instead of nit pick it to death. In 10 years I feel we will have a lot of flex fueled hot rods.
Lee

[harshman]

"In 10 years I feel we will have a lot of flex fueled hot rods."

Why? What's the point?

[Damn True]

If they can begin to use materials other than corn to create the stuff it has a chance (though slim). It (E-85) is a bandaid solution for gas burners. The whole thing is a lot more about making people feel good about what they do, than it is changing any real effect of what they do.

It isn't cheaper (until they use something other than corn), it isn't very stable, it dosen't ship well, it dosen't provide mileage improvements (27% worse in fact), it provides a negligible difference in CO2 output and in order to take advantage of the potential ability to make more power you have to have compression ratios in the 15:1 range which renders the engine useless for straight commercial grades of gasoline. Not to mention the process is using one of the least efficient fermentables in terms of its yield per acre.

Wow sounds great.

The real long term solution, IMO, for the majority of the US auto/truck fleet is diesel. The yield per acre of the crops that can be used for biodiesel is far higher than crops used for alky (Thank you George Washington Carver in honor of black history month). It can be mixed in any proportion with dino-diesel which can be produced in far higher yield per barrel than gasoline.

Let's define the conversation a bit. If we are talking about converting an enthusiast vehicle to E85 I suppose it might be feasible. Provided you live in an area where it is readilly available, provided you are willing to absorb the increased operating costs, and if you are willing to make a full conversion (the 15:1 compression thing) permanently eschew straight dino-fuel.

If we are talking about having a large percentage of the US auto/truck fleet running on the stuff.....I don't see it. Diesel IMO is the way to go here. The engines are already in existance as the majority of European vehicles are running diesel. We simply need to convert existing refineries to produce a majority of diesel rather than gasoline as demand requires, and facilitate the production of bio-diesel which again, can be done in much greater quantities given current production technolgies than alky.

[LowBuckX]

[quote=Damn True]If they can begin to use materials other than corn to create the stuff it has a chance (though slim). It (E-85) is a bandaid solution for gas burners. The whole thing is a lot more about making people feel good about what they do, than it is changing any real effect of what they do.

[\quote]

This shows how uninformed you are on ethanol. Ethanol can be produced from any starch sugar or cellulose producing plants products. People are using grass clippings to make the stuff.
GMs Go yellow campaign is to blame for the corn only thoughts.


We have a plant being built about 50 miles from me that will take exspired soda pop beer milk ice cream base and other garbage and make ethanol and then recycle the plastic and aluminum to curtail the costs of production.

[MonzaRacer]

[quote=Damn True]If they can begin to use materials other than corn to create the stuff it has a chance (though slim). It (E-85) is a bandaid solution for gas burners. The whole thing is a lot more about making people feel good about what they do, than it is changing any real effect of what they do.

It isn't cheaper (until they use something other than corn), it isn't very stable, it dosen't ship well, it dosen't provide mileage improvements (27% worse in fact), it provides a negligible difference in CO2 output and in order to take advantage of the potential ability to make more power you have to have compression ratios in the 15:1 range which renders the engine useless for straight commercial grades of gasoline. Not to mention the process is using one of the least efficient fermentables in terms of its yield per acre. quote]

OK so corn is the only product that can make Ethanol.
UM no. It can be from ANY starch bearing OR sugar bearing component. There is one small company down near Florida that collects old fruit and vegetables and they also get other stuff from local grocers. They produce over 100000 gallons of fuel grade Ethanol. The small scale distillery has been profitable since the the 7 th month of operation and they have never had to shut down for lack of materiael.
The residue from sugar beet processing, sorgum processing, leftovers from alcoholic beverage production, and there are others.
according to one report 3 companies have processes that are very favorable in cellulosic Ethanol production.
There have not been any Ethanol production facilities shut down due to inability to sell production and from what I read only 3 closed and that was due to bad management, in the last 5 years. 17 distilleries have RE-OPENED under new management to produce Ethanol grade fuel.
As for increasing compression to release the energy in Ethanol ,well that is bunk. According to all the manuals I have read the compression was not changed in E85 fueled engines, at least not to a super high degree such as you suggest.
A compression rise will help in power production and efficiency but is not required.
The reduction in fuel mileage will be depedant on the vehicle, driving habits and state of tune.
Consumer Reports used one of the heaviest vehicles on the market for its test and recorded 27percent decrease in back to back test drives. The vehicle was not allowed to build a very good long term fuel strategy in my opinion. They also bashed it as they tested in anrea that had no E85 infrastructer so they added in the BS about finding it.
So we have a 6k to 7k lb vehicle that got 14 mpg on gas, and 10.2 on E85.
What if we redid that test with an E85 powered Ranger or Impalla/Malibu. I think the mileage loss would be slighly different.
I intend to build a car that will get good mileage and I intend to build use E85.
The fuel is viable, made from a renewable source. It does represent an exceptable fuel source and is going to be readiliy available for the most part.
It has a 105 octane rating which makes it more usefull and it can make considerable power.
The technology is here to adapt this to our vehicles. IS it as bad as you say to use and all that,,,welll.
Lets see if you store gasoline in an underground tank it can still off gas and collect moisture too. This is going to get more prevailent as they phase in E10 nationwide as MTBE is being removed from fuel.
If the product is handled properly in transportation and delivery and storage it has no more problems to implement than any other fuel. Diesel has a higher rate of destruction in transit/storage and if it is spilled it will cause more environmental problems. And it can cause a lot more problems if dispensed.
For the short term ,yes it has a long road to follow to become more widespread, but it is here and there are some very large companies behind the building of the production and distribution of Ethanol/E85.
I ask my friend what he did to his 3.0 to turbo it and he said replace the manifolds, Added larger E85 compliant injectors and made sure the engine was fresh (leakdown test) enough to run a turbo.
The car makes great power he told me that he has so far driven it on E85 exclusivly except for 2 tanks of gasoline out of town and he told me that the 3600lb car lost 2 mile per gallon which put his car running 34 mpg on gas and making some very impressive power.
He thinks the compression is around 8.9 to one but hasnt looked yet ,he is digging up the vin of the truck it came out of and we are going to check it out.
CO2 isnt what we need to worry about as much as CO.
Carbon Monoxide will destroy ozone by stripping the 3rd oxygen molecule from ozone(O3) when exposed to sunlight in the upper atmosphere. HC, unburned hydrocarbons add to smog.
And one other thing that does come more from gas over E85 is particulate production.
Also diesel will make some dent but not in the respect of deceasing our dependance on forien oil. will it help produce more bio diesel ,and I am directly behind that too.
One big hurddle of biodiesel is the waste that is produced is a very bad chemical brew that will contaminate the environment. So far nothing in distilation is environmentaly dangerous.
I have a far distant vision of E85 AND biodiesel pumps side by side as well as regualr gasoline.
Honda has one Hydrogen Cell Technology unit that produces clean burning hydrogen for burning in current technology engines.
also does anyone remember the big truck that was trifuel that Ford built for SEMA, it was gas/E85/Hydrogen fueld and I really like to see the companies test and build these platforms to test.
Everyone wants to see electric cars but the power plant still has to produce electricity and in most cases that burns coal.
You can bash E85 but it is here and we will see a more diversly fuel auto fleet in the next 10 yrs.
With the amount of cash being pushed into alcohol production nationwide means it has a very promising future.
Will it cure all our ills? No. But it is a good idea as it comes from a renewable base product and using regualr plant life even some of the larger cities are looking into reducing the temperate problems in the cities.
All you can do is try to tear it down but ,sorry your pitiful attemps dont stop progress.
If I remember my figures( I will try to find the actual figure) that there was 18 new Ethanol production plant starting or being built and that was as of sometime in 06 and there were 3 or 4 cellulosic distilleries being set up in the small scale , with plans to upscale after the process gets streamlined. The big product would be switchgrass, it will do many things, it can clean up contaminated lands as it will leach the bad thing leftover from older production facilities, more green growing things can help the Earths surface, possibly slowing any rise in global temps, and it produces oxygen.
The by product is supposed to be able to be used to make papers, building products(like they use wood shavings and clipings ansdtuff to make "green" construction materiel instead of dumping it into a land fill)
E85 is usefull, it is made from a renewable source which will bring more local (re American) dollars to our farmers and that inturn will help the American economy.
Will it be a big deal maker in the ,well it can fill a certain niche AND we as another niche of American society ,the performance enthusiasts, can either embrass it or shout at the people saying, look, here is where we can use something as it becomes more mainstream and it will make us look better in the EPA eyes.
Face it it has a lot of benefits and not a lot of down falls. It can be produced and one of the resultant byproducts CAN BE REUSED FOR CATTLE FEED. And I am sure other starch bearing crops can be used also, as well as sugar bearing crops, which drop one step out of the process.
E85, made from renewable sources, clean burning, high octane, and its going to be locally available rather than having to shipp in barrels of race fuel (be it Ethanol E100, unleaded 100 octane, or leaded race fuel)another thing that a friend of mine just imed me is that the steam developed from burning it wil help lubricate the valves in older engines much as lead used too.
OH and they have been burning Ethanol in South America for the last 30 yrs in cars.
Give it a go or not but I intend to. 105 octane woohoo, cheaper than race fuel, check. My 2 big reasons to work with it.
Lee

[LowBuckX]

Did anyone mention that Ethanol is also safer to produce?

To seperate crude oil it has to be heated to the point it vaporizes then is sent to distillerie towers to be seperated into its veriouse forms. If memory serves me well I think 1000*. Its a big pressure cooker literaly
even though we will still need crude oil to produce other products like plastics and chemicals it is still very dangerous

As for electric. My father works for the premeire producer of Coal feeders/scales for power plants. They are stable in production for at least the next 15 years. 26 new Power plants just in this country are schedualed to bebuilt in this time period. They have found ways to burn the crap coal (read high sulpher content) with special air scrubbers to not let the added pollution into the air but it will find its way into other places like ground water. If we went to running full electric vehicles the power plants will be over loaded and then we will have to buld more plant creating more pollution. And it snowballs.


Do a google seach on home stills and see what exsperiances poeple are having producing there own fuels for their own use. It may not change your mind but will open your eyes a bit.
I also dont understand a few of you all for BioDiesal but against ethanol. I for one dont want a Grease burner in my hot rod.

[LowBuckX]

I also have to say since this seams heated a bit. These discusions are healthy and I hope the heated tempers dont spill out to the rest of the forum. Keeep the heat in this thread.

[Damn True]

[quote=Damn True]If they can begin to use materials other than corn to create the stuff it has a chance (though slim). It (E-85) is a bandaid solution for gas burners. The whole thing is a lot more about making people feel good about what they do, than it is changing any real effect of what they do.

[\quote]

This shows how uninformed you are on ethanol. Ethanol can be produced from any starch sugar or cellulose producing plants products. People are using grass clippings to make the stuff.
GMs Go yellow campaign is to blame for the corn only thoughts.


We have a plant being built about 50 miles from me that will take exspired soda pop beer milk ice cream base and other garbage and make ethanol and then recycle the plastic and aluminum to curtail the costs of production.

Uh yeah, thanks. I knew that you two which is why I (with specificity) pointed out that the primary deterant to the technology IS the corn. However the largest percentage of the stuff IS being made from corn. The rest of the stuff is feel-good co-genaration. Great for political soundbytes and propping up Con-Agra (who by the way donates tons of money to both sides of the aisle depending on which state you are in, remember that bit, it's important). They "yippee for the American farmer" stuff works well on the nightly news too.

Corn however yields 370 galons of alky per acre. Miscanthus and switchgrass yield 1500 and 1100 gallons per acre respectively. So, one might ask why then are we using so much corn when cellulosic materials yield so much more? Hmmmmmm

Think on that for a while and get back to me.

Hint: Think farm subsidies & large farm corporations.

Interesting tidbit: Corn used to be a plant that would have worked really well for this, but hybridizing to make the perfect feed-corn and super sweet corn on the cob has changed the plant such that it's once protein/cellulose rich stalks are pertty much wood which doesn't ferment well at all.

Yields of common crops associated with ethanol production
Crop litres ethanol/ha US gal/acre
Miscanthus 14031 1500
Switchgrass 10757 1150
Sweet Potatoes 10000 1069
Poplar Wood (hybrid) 9354 1000
Sweet Sorghum 8419 900
Sugar Beet 6679 714
Sugar Cane 6192 662
Cassava 3835 410
Corn (maize) 3461 370
Wheat 2591 277


Monza,
Your posts are really tough to read. Consider the occasional carriage return and perhaps an outline before you start.

Unless your "friends" have uncovered some miracle of thermodynamics there is simply no way they are getting similar power and milage from the same car running E85 and gas. There is less potential energy (BTUs) in the alcohol. 34% less to be exact.

"Brazil is using it blah, blah, blah"
a) Yeah at 23% not 85%
b) Yeah by using cellulosic materials not crap-ass corn
c) The day we start following Brazil in terms of economic/ecological policy will be the begining of the end of this country. Dig their GNP, the quality of their water and the roughly 30% deforrestation in the last 20 years.

If you guys want to build E85 powered cars go right ahead.

I'm going to work on my hydrogen fuel cell hovercraft.

[novanutcase]

No it doesnt produce less power it just takes more fuel to produce the SAME power.

Probably a completely stupid question but if it takes more fuel to produce the same power and we are constantly trying to stuff as much gasoline into the cylinder wouldn't this mean a decrease in power overall given we use the same carb/head setup?

[LowBuckX]

You have to jet the carb up to get a richer fuel to air mix. Same carb more jet

[ProTouring442]

A quick reply on my post from way earlier in this discussion, clarified based on the discussion I have seen here.

I am all for ethanol made from waste products. This only makes sense! Any time we can use garbage to benefit us, it's a good thing.

Also, has anyone seen any info on the algea process I saw on the discovery channel? Seems a great way to make a lot of good products.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "Inamorata"
www.FQuick.com/ProTouring442

[Damn True]

A quick reply on my post from way earlier in this discussion, clarified based on the discussion I have seen here.

I am all for ethanol made from waste products. This only makes sense! Any time we can use garbage to benefit us, it's a good thing.

Also, has anyone seen any info on the algea process I saw on the discovery channel? Seems a great way to make a lot of good products.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "Inamorata"
www.FQuick.com/ProTouring442 (http://www.FQuick.com/ProTouring442)

The algea into biodiesel thing has promise but the technology and moreso the infrastructure to make it happen is in its infancy. It's estimated though that there could be a yield as high as 10,000 gallons of diesel per acre. Question is, where are you going to put enough bubbling cesspools of algea to make it viable?

[Damn True]

You have to jet the carb up to get a richer fuel to air mix. Same carb more jet

Which means you are using more fuel to achieve the same output because gallon to gallon there is less energy available in the alky. Therefore you use more fuel per mile.

[novanutcase]

Which means you are using more fuel to achieve the same output because gallon to gallon there is less energy available in the alky. Therefore you use more fuel per mile.

So that being what it is, how are you going to be able to fit MORE fuel into the same space to achieve the same power level? It would seem that to get more fuel to make the same power you would need to pull more air through the carb and heads. How would this be possible as we are already trying to pull as much air as we can? EFI?

[LocomotiveBreath]

I would use E85 if the price per gallon made it cost effective. The prices I have seen would not justify using it due to the substaincially higher consumption rate as compaired to gasoline.

[Damn True]

So that being what it is, how are you going to be able to fit MORE fuel into the same space to achieve the same power level? It would seem that to get more fuel to make the same power you would need to pull more air through the carb and heads. How would this be possible as we are already trying to pull as much air as we can? EFI?

Hypothetical numbers:

If a well tuned gas engine runs @ 14.7:1 you would need to run an alky burner roughly 27% richer. Roughly 11:1.

Less air in the mix and more fuel.

[StRacerDuke]

Guys, please use paragraph breaks! This is becoming a pain in the butt to read.

Thanks!

[LowBuckX]

Guys, please use paragraph breaks! This is becoming a pain in the butt to read.

Thanks!

Idontknowwhatyoumean.Ihavenoproblemreadinganyofthe posts.Theyareforethemostpartwellworded-OfcourseImjustpullingyourlegandtryingtouncrossmyey es .

[Beige]

So that being what it is, how are you going to be able to fit MORE fuel into the same space to achieve the same power level? It would seem that to get more fuel to make the same power you would need to pull more air through the carb and heads. How would this be possible as we are already trying to pull as much air as we can? EFI?

You seem to be misunderstanding how a carb works.

[MonzaRacer]

Actually E85 run in a perfect stoichiolmetric ratio of 9.6 to 1 (E100 is 9.0 to 1) roughly.
As I figured it with a higher price locally we had approximatley a 5 dollar increase in cost for 10 doallrs gas vs similar amount to make the same mileage (assuming using 130 percent and not a more realistic 20 to 25 percent).
Here we go :
Say we use 10 gallons of gasoline:
$2.199 x 10 gallons = $21.99
So if we use a miserable increase of 30 percent in use to go the same distance:
E85
$2.099 x 13 gallons = $27.29
So to go the same difference ON 105 OCTANE FUEL costs of $5.39.
Now lets check race fuel
CAM 2 110 Octane
$5.399 x 10 gallons = $53.99
HMM its leagal I dont have to put it in a can and then my car ,its cleaner burning, and its made from a renewable source.
I think Ill take E85. I can even handle taking the time to retune for regualr fuel if I cant find E85.
Another thing it doesnt have to be 27 percent more it says it uses roughly 30 percent more by volume. BUT in a late model Tahoe (heavy a$$ truck ) it gets 27 percent less fuel mileage.
I wonder what the difference would be in a new Impalla or Malibu with flex fuel on it.
I can pretty much bet it doesnt loose as much in mileage.
I know one fell with a 3600 lb car and a turboed 3,0 v6 that only sees a 2 mpg difference.
good luck

[Fuelie Fan]

I personally have no further interest in continuing this conversation if you're going to refer to my or other people's arguments as "pitiful attempts." Especially after you prove my own point concerning mileage by quoting the stoichiometric A/F of E85 (10:1, or approximately 50%(!!!!!!!) more fuel required for a set amount of consumed air). Think about this, hard, and then question whether Consumer Reports tests showing 27% reduction in economy or your buddy's anectdotal 5% reduction in economy seems more plausible and representative of typical performance.

[Damn True]

Dude, it's got NOTHING to do with the weight of the vehicle. There is less energy to expend in the FUEL. It matters not a whit if the vehicle is a 4000lb chevy tahoe or a 2500lb 325i because the fuel provides 27% less potential energy.

The Tahoe will use more fuel than the bimmer either way, but the difference between the amount of the two fuels used will be largely the same.

[LowBuckX]

Stale mate. The pole is all I need to see anymore

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[MonzaRacer]

Lets see, your telling me that an almost 7000lb vehicle wont get worse mileage. Your nuts dude.
The economy loss for the Tahoe and an economy loss for a car with a lot less weight is going to be diifferent.
Now your telling me that the stoichiometric air fuel ratio isnt halv tahts the ratio of AIR to FUEL.
The economy of a vehicle has to do with the use of the energy released from the fuel, not the energy potential of the fuel.
Now i know for a fact that swaping an engine into a lighter car will result in less fuel consumption.
Now as for the Mustang you gotta figure that it is using the full potential of 105 octane to produce power.And it goes to prove that small engines properly tuned can make big power and do it clean and economicly.
Heck someone on here had a 1000hp car that they had to drive and put a different car in a trailer to come home and the car got 24mpg This means its in the driving some to me.
Now your trying to tell me that the A/F ratio makes the mileage rating of the car, now I know you have no clue.
Some people have said it was super expensive and of no use to try to use it but it does work it is becoming available and the differences that some are trying to dream up just wont hold water.
Remeber that soichiometric A/F ratio is the theoretical setting, some can go as lean as 10.5 to 1 according to one fella pming me and this was on a turbo race car.
you can get mad or call me names or do what ever but I have put out a lot info and links to where others can read on it. Several people have PM/emailed me and we have discussed it and I have several guys wanting to figure out how to link up enough fuel to run the Hot Rod Power Tour on E85.
Anyway, i know it works , Marathon and several other oil companies are not going to invest millions in putting in extra tanks and pumps and spend time on shipping and storage facilities for a lark
People can try to blast me for pushing E85 but I have seen it work. It should have a place in out list of tools and I guess I dont have enough cash to prove it.
Ethanol was a viable fuel source before gasoline was ever in the fore front. Heck even Henry Ford built dual fuel cars way back when as a lot of rural areas still didnt have gasoline.
Are there hurddles that need to be worked on ,sure, but you know with big car companies and big fuel distributors around selling it it will come to the attention of people.
I know for a fact that one of the 5 top corporate car lease companies are buying flex fuel cars for fleet use.
Now if these companies are going to spend the cash and get the companies using those vehicles to burn E85 when possible, then there has to be a reason to spend time doing such work.
Mileage is not energy potential. Using one vehicles mileage does not prove the energy btu difference nor the differences in mileage for a different vehicle.
Mileage is more dependant on driving habits and conditions, not the energy content of the fuel used.
Yes you will use roughly 25 percent more with E85 but the fact that the engine can possibly (if tuned properly ) make more power from and run cleaner too and be running on a renewable fuel source. Then you have to take the good with the bad. We use NOS and we take the risk of destroying an engine if improperly tuned.
Stay tuned folks E85 is definately going to play a part in my next car as fuel source. On top of that I know that maybe my families farm will have somewhere to sell corn.
Good luck to all the nay sayers.
Sign me,
Lee Abel
E85 advocate!
http://www.ethanol.org/

[71dusterdan]

i'm still in, build the engine to use the available octane increase and let 'er rip. alot of you are still arguing over moot points, it is not for the masses. the farmers are growing the corn anyways and we pay them subsidies. the more fuel options available, the more middle fingers we can throw at the middle east. it is available here in no.il. with plants going up all over. my vehicles will be rebuilt strictly for e85 as needed, meaning compression in the 12-1 area, and at a price within pennies of 87 octane gas, i will not lose any sleep, that is 20 to 30 cents cheaper than 91-93 octane. and at 12-1 91-93 will not come close to meeting my needs, priced racegas anywhere, e85 looks great. the first one will be the 400 in my f250, 12-1 will make what is already a stumppuller on pump piss into a real monster.

[MonzaRacer]

Hey dan all you need is around 10 to one in the 400 and use the new Edelbrock E85 carb coming out. As for your toys keep in touch Ill add you to the list as I am developing a bolt on FlexFI for use on hot rods.
The big stick in the mud is the flex fuel sensor that bumps the price up.
I agree its a lot of little bickering points on something that does work.
Keep in touch.
Oh and for me I would actually make my street cars in the high 11 to 1 range. This does allow a person to use 93 plus some good octane booster if need be. While it would be super rich it would be passable if you pull a large vacuum hose even as a patch till you get to an E85 pump.
Now for track cars you would have no problem with it cause if they are FI then you could even use locally available Ethanol from race gas seller.
Around here local fuel distributors have got everyone off Methanol as when Indy switched it made Methanol shipping to high except maybe on Laborday as thet will have a lot in stock for Nationals.
Dan,Low buck, and anyone who actually listens to the benefits keep in touch.
Lee Abel
E85 advocate!
http://www.ethanol.org/

[CSI:QUINCY]

You have to jet the carb up to get a richer fuel to air mix. Same carb more jet

i don't know who told you that this would work but it will not work. due to the specific gravity of the fuel. the whole carb needs to flow more fuel. you can make run like that but never work right at idle you will flood the engine and if you jet at idle it will be to lean top end. all the metering blocks needs to be changed and much much more. just like building a methonal carb but not quite that much the specific gravity of methonal is even less than ethonal.

[Damn True]

On top of that I know that maybe my families farm will have somewhere to sell corn.



Kinda what I figgured.

Sounds like you have your mind made up. Rock on. Honestly, I wish you luck but think you are putting your eggs into a basket that wont be well supported in the future.

[LowBuckX]

i don't know who told you that this would work but it will not work. due to the specific gravity of the fuel. the whole carb needs to flow more fuel. you can make run like that but never work right at idle you will flood the engine and if you jet at idle it will be to lean top end. all the metering blocks needs to be changed and much much more. just like building a methonal carb but not quite that much the specific gravity of methonal is even less than ethonal.

Over simplification on my part I was trying to make it easyer to understand.

Same amount of air more fuel .

[71dusterdan]

monza are you reading my mind, i want to inject the 400 truck engine for sure, but i am not really sold on the flexifuel gig. if i never saw pump premium again i would survive(mentally) great idea i just do not want to compromise to run gas, although it does certainly have its merits. let me know who it goes i do want to inject everything. thanks,Dan

[Dave96dcm]

Baiscally if you want to try and get similar fuel milage and output then they way to go would be boosted, run a low boost with pump gas and with E-85 you can up the boost (change blower pullies or wastegate settings) and get a simmilar efficency, but if you want a n/a car then it is better to build for one of the other. Unless you are building a weekend race car, road race or drag race it makes more sence to use a higher octane fuel and if you build a engine to run on 105 octane fuel would you rather pay $5 a gallon of $2 something a gallon. It is that simple. Once the demand goes up the efficency of the plants producing the E-85 will go up, think about how inefficent the first gasoline plants must have been.

[MonzaRacer]

Well the Flex Fuel cars work I found a customer at my new job who uses E85 as she owns a Taurus and her daughter has a Malibu/Impalla thats flex fuel and she told me that in lighter cars her mileage difference is roughly 10 to 15 percent in around town driving and a little under 10 percent in cruise. She told me that she hasnt been hurt finacialy yet running it and seems to get better mileage on gas after running the E85 as it keeps the induction system clean.
She told me that she was told horror stories on the fact the systems would have corrosion problems and starting problems and all types of such crap and so far all she sees is that her and her daughter aredoing something to help the environment.
Her daughters ex boyfriend was trying to run it in his truck (non E85 setup) and trashed it and blamed her.
This lady was curious why I asked about it and so I told her and I just had a phone call from her daughter (who it turns out is into cars) wants to meet me.
And from the pics , oh boy she is cute and smart and single,,,,, so I hope to be able to hook my scanner up to her car soon too to get some readings from the sensors.
My big hold up is that sourcing the sensors is hard.
As for being flex fule it simply will have a sensor in the fuel line to measurethe alcohol content in the fuel and it adjusts the injectors and ignition to match the requirements of the fuel being used.
Basicly it would give you a choice and if you took a long drive you may have to "settle" for premium but be able to fill up later in the trip after finding E85 again.
The big telling point would be using colder plugs with gas and that E85 cleans the fuel system very well.
Is it a perfect fix no, but untill we can buy a Hydrogen cell/fuel mixer and use it in our cars then we do hae to use what we are given and I really dont believe companies would spend billions setting up Ethanol processing plants all over the US if it wasnt being given its due regard. As for E85 making to EVERY town in the use but even if the infrastructure only covers 75 percent of the country then the ones of us near it should give it a try.
I have a lot of time involved in setting up parts and working on any software needs in my kit idea.
I have talked to 3 different gas tank manufacturers and only one has given me song and dance about having to a the tanks and the other 2 said they simply use a process that isnt affected by it as they found it (what they use for E85 OEM tanks) to be a superior and simply implmented it into thier process of production. My big thing right now is in figuring out how to make sure the fuel piumps stay submerged in fuel to provide cooling. I am figuring if the one pump manufacturer comes back with a compact enough cartridge in a size we can fit trough most older tanks then we are in buisness with less trouble.
I am still hoping that we can make it feasible for a customer to source a new/used tank and send it to me for conversion as I think I have a better idea for pump/outlet positioning, but thats coming up for testing.
OH and so far the E85 engine has done great switching bcak and forth, but now the trick is getting the sensor installed and getting the software set up to work with it.
It going slowly but surely.
Oh and the engine is a 9.5 to 1 SBC with alumium heads and so far it runs on anything,,, heck my friend who is driving it even filled up with E85 and poured a quart of water in the tank and had little or no driving problems (he thought he was hearing spark knock but it was there after he checked tank and made sure it was clean and he was going to check timing too as he thought his distributor had moved.
Oh and on the car (which weighs in at 3456)he has noted a difference of mileage of 19.5 on E85 and 21.8 to 22.2 on gas and all he has done so far is use a laptop to reflash every time he changes fuel (and make sure he is very near empty) he has also adapted a Caddy fuel sensor module (the one that reads gallons instead of using a needle) so he has no more than a gallon at any one time.
He has another set of heads and hopes to up the compression after it warms up enough to get into his garage and do some more datalogging for me.
Later
Lee

[71dusterdan]

nice job Lee, i'm curious about the tank, 1st and then the rest later. as in the beginning i will be using a thermoquad carb, recalibrated for the e85. it seems as though my truck will be my guinea pig. Dan

[MonzaRacer]

Dan I would figure that simply installing a new tank would help a lot and i really am looking into working up a vapor setup so we can keep the system closed to moisture.
This is my big secondary worry but the small things will make my "kit" more universal in the long run I hope.
Lee

[Dave96dcm]

I would think that a 304 stainless tank would work fine and there are a few companies that make them for popular cars already.

[MonzaRacer]

Yeah for between $600 and $800 bucks. One company has a an elecroless nickle plating process they guarantee for 10 yrs, but I havent gotten the estimate yet.
From what one company told me that new tanks dont have problems its just old tanks that have problems from what I have been told. But I know several people using E85 and old tanks and not having any problems except it CLEANS the complete fuel system which sometimes makes leaks.

[LowBuckX]

I cant beleive electroless nickle will protect the tank. I used to work at a Hard chrome shop and we did lots of nickel for many products and it allows the base metal to rust fairly fast in the salt tank tests.

In nickel chrome plateing as in Brite chrome or bumper chrome The nickel provides the base and the chrome provides corrotion resistance, The actual chrome on a ornamental peice is so thin ist clear. The nickel provides the color and depth.

Unless he uses a differant nickel. We used brite ornamental grade and dull food grade.

[MonzaRacer]

From what I was told the nickel was similar to what is used on nickel plate firearms and was more to seal the interior surface and to harden the metal surface too.
I wasnt real privy to all of the reasons why but they told me the nickel was one of thier "tricks" to preserve the tank.
I will post back on it when I have more infor and actual prices etc.
Lee

[Damn True]

Cellulosic Ethanol Fail.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204012004577072470158115782.html?m od=WSJ_Opinion_AboveLEFTTop


We'd call this the march of folly, but that's unfair to fools.

If you paid a premium for one of these 52532 I'm sorry.

[bimmen325]

I do not support anything that can't stand on it's own, what you percieve as a low price is just a trick. Your tax dollars are used to keep the price low , to encourage use. Your paying for it, one way or another.

[Damn True]

...and you pay again in the case of corn, because by virtue of the diversion of the commodity to fuel (a wholly stupid premise to begin with) the cost of everything that uses corn goes up. Not just the obvious things either such as tortillas, corn flakes and corn meal but alkaline batteries, diapers and your Starbucks iced latte which is served in a cup made from corn.

Yes, batteries and diapers have corn in them.

[MonzaRacer]

...and you pay again in the case of corn, because by virtue of the diversion of the commodity to fuel (a wholly stupid premise to begin with) the cost of everything that uses corn goes up. Not just the obvious things either such as tortillas, corn flakes and corn meal but alkaline batteries, diapers and your Starbucks iced latte which is served in a cup made from corn.

Yes, batteries and diapers have corn in them.

OK so here we go again with food analogy again yet most people never know the truth in that corn derived ethanol(about 42% to 45% according to my research) DOES NOT USED HUMAN CONSUMED FOOD CORN.
Now that that tid bit is out does anyone on here EVER know what comes out of the back side of a distillery? Distillers dried grains (26% pure protein cattle feed) or wet cattle feed. and is used in feeding many types of live stock and it makes another industry in the shipping there of.
Now a lot of BS is going along for the ride on increasing prices of food produced with corn derivatives yet when the actual prices are adjusted for the devaluation of the dollar over the last 6 years the food prices are in steady relationship, increasing since 2008-2009 with specific economic issues helping.
Ethanol and E85 have not caused any significant shortages YET farmers wages and ability to make a better profit have gone up, only issue is that other costs like fertilizer, fuel and lubricants are going up faster,, hmmm too bad we arent drilling our own oil,,,,.
But the fact is there were several racing organizations asked to consider ethanol over methanol. Indy did change I believe, didnt they?
As for an alcohol class I would greatly appreciate NHRA and IHRA pushing for an actual E85 class, let it be spec fuel class with carbs in one class and FI in another, only issue is a test port to verify fuel used. I know one fella who developed an inline fuel content measuring device to verify the alcohol content of fuels and it employs both E85 and M85(methanol based) technology.
As anyone knows Methanol is SOOOOO corrosive compared to Ethanol.
Ethanol is easily contaminated by water but simply adding a set amount of E100 can help this dilution.
As for me I hope I can get my FI kit idea working.
Let be honest if your running an aluminum headed LS some of those can run 11 to 1 , 11.5 to one and never have an issue on Premium unleaded, so if a set up comes out that is cheaper, more easily tuned AND repaired and can run from E10 to E100 with no issue, who wouldnt buy it. rune your car on pump E10 (this is because MTBE the former oxygenate has been banned as it pollutes ground water) so the natural choice would me one that if the whole 10000 gallons spilled from a tanker what clean up is there, non it will dissipate/evaporate and all you have to do is keep it from lighting on fire,,,heck ethanol wont even poison a water supply, ever wonder where some small breweries used to dump waste/bad beer/liquors,, into local sewage and water ways as it poses little to no risks.
Now if we can have 105 octane fuel, and get it at a reasonable price and you can buy a system to run it easily as filling the tank would you?
I know I will.
too bad so many people have wrong information. See when the ethanol subsidies went into effect it was to help build infrastructure, distilleries, shipping pipe line similar to gas, distribution system after production. They were never meant to be forever till democratic control extended them indefinitely for the most part. Also what was not shown in news were the conservatives who back renewable sources of fuel and such wanted toadd in legislation to slowly reduce the systems dependence on subsidies.
Big thing that hurt the ethanol issue was when the replacement mandate started Katrina damaged so much of the fuel industry's ability to MEET EPA rules as the ability to produce ethanol, blend it into car fuel and get it to stations was diminished and caused major price issues as fuel supplies were stretched. Much of ethanol production comes from waste foods, left overs from sugar production and such, yet you never hear about it. all you hear about are corn prices and all the other blather as you never see the true facts.
Will I use E85, sure as long as local station has it and I can get reliable fuel from it ie not contaminated.
Will it be my first and only line of fuel for my cars, no, I will attempt to make my car adaptable to using both E10 and E85.
Also will most likely have a methanol/water injection system and inter cooling on my cars to help with tuning issues and I also am looking at using wide band for tuning AND may even try to build my own roller loading system down the road.

[Damn True]

OK so here we go again with food analogy again yet most people never know the truth in that corn derived ethanol(about 42% to 45% according to my research) DOES NOT USED HUMAN CONSUMED FOOD CORN. Grossly oversimplified and misleading statement. There is a relatively static number of acres that are used for growing "corn". Over the last 10+ years that acreage inventory has moved to growing 25% of it's total yield to corn for "uses other than food" - mainly ethanol production. (CBO statistics) That number is expected to reach as much as 30% (Yale University) within the next year and some estimates say 50% (Iowa St) within the next 5yrs depending on who's estimates of our collective stupidity you believe.

Cite "your research" (I can) because the US Congressional Budget office, the US Department of Agriculture, The US Department of Energy, the United Nations, Yale University and Iowa State University all disagree with the points you continue to espouse.


Now a lot of BS is going along for the ride on increasing prices of food produced with corn derivatives yet when the actual prices are adjusted for the devaluation of the dollar over the last 6 years the food prices are in steady relationship, increasing since 2008-2009 with specific economic issues helping. Wrong. The increased use of ethanol accounted for about 10 percent to 15 percent of the rise in food prices. (CBO & United Nations)

From 2005 to January 2008, the global price of wheat increased 143 percent, corn by 105 percent, rice by 154 percent, sugar by 118 percent, and oilseeds by 197 percent. In 2006-2007, this rate of increase accelerated, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, “due to continued demand for biofuels and drought in major producing countries.” The price increases have since moderated, but many believe only temporarily, given tight stocks-to-use ratios. (Yale University)


Ethanol and E85 have not caused any significant shortages YET farmers wages and ability to make a better profit have gone up, only issue is that other costs like fertilizer, fuel and lubricants are going up faster. Wrong again. Subsides and tariffs artificially drive up the price of grain making it a less affordable commodity for many with 25-30% of "food corn" being lost to the production of "field corn". Finally, since the subsidies are my money, those profits are simply theft. Not money fairly earned for a non-manipulated commodity price.


45 cent-per-gallon “blender’s tax credit” for ethanol
$1 credit for plant-based biodiesel and “cellulosic” ethanol
$2.8 Billion per year in traditional "direct payment" corn subsidies or 35% of the $8.02 Billion in total farm subsidies.
(DOE, DOA)

From Mark Malloch Brown, former head of the UN Developing Nations Agriculture Program:

"It is the extraordinary distortion of global trade, where the West spends $360 billion a year on protecting its agriculture with a network of subsidies and tariffs that costs developing countries about US$50 billion in potential lost agricultural exports. Fifty billion dollars is the equivalent of today's level of development assistance." So we spend in excess of $8 Billion a year on subsidies which then causes us to have to spend an additional exorbitant sum on foreign aid to countries who could be earning that money fairly....and again, that's my money being sent overseas. Likely to Nations who would wish us ill.



But the fact is there were several racing organizations asked to consider ethanol over methanol. Indy did change I believe, didnt they? And eBay and Google have installed solar panels over their parking lots. The investment for which will never be recovered as the operating lifespan of the panels is longer than the ROI. It's a PR move. So is the use of bio-fuel in racing. Thus an irrelevant datapoint.


Much of ethanol production comes from waste foods, left overs from sugar production and such, yet you never hear about it. all you hear about are corn prices and all the other blather as you never see the true facts. Still wrong.

And for cripes sake dude:
52615
Use it once in a while.

[MonzaRacer]

So I take you dont like ethanol, its ability to be produced creating jobs and industry AND the fact that now hauling IN waster from sugar producing countries , waste that generally gets thrown out unprocessed , has become and industry in its self.
You spout "facts" from the UN which I would never trust to balance my check book. you also spout "fact " from CBO which we all know has been handed figures and made to post the "accuracy" thereof and how those can be made it look favorable.
Your talk of global grain prices really has limited scope as there are no side by side comparisons of crop failures through drought, pestilence, and other issues and again figures coming from one of the most dishonest entities (UN) on earth and one(CBO) that you HAVE to give specific rules and information to get them to figure anything and those numbers CAN and HAVE BEEN skewed many times to look good. or bad rather than honest.
6 cherry picked "facts" do not win an argument not prove ANYTHING except you can go pull one or two or three "reports" that "prove" your claims.
Now as for the entities that you pull facts from: US Congressional Budget office, the US Department of Agriculture, The US Department of Energy, the United Nations, Yale University and Iowa State University, lets see just how these shake out ,so to speak.
1:)CBO: same one that can pull up 17 different (if information I got was correct, but I do know of at least THREE) "reports" on how the Patient Protection act or Obamacare, would help healthcare, not impact economy or debt or deficit, etc. hmmm and we all know its a sham. CBO numbers are VERY suspect as the parameters of the statistics gathering are not present its simply a report that we paid lots of money for and I have grave doubts on its veracity.
2: 3:)US Dept. of Ag and US Dept of Energy, probably two of the most wasteful government entities (next to certain branches of government and the Department of Education) ever put into place,,,,oh and the Environmental Protection Agency
4:) United Nations, the single most useless "agency" ever developed and funded by any country let alone ours.
5: 6:)Yale and Iowa State, ok might actually take something of theirs as a useful and factual report IF its not funded by any of the above "departments or entities" and NONE of the funding came from anything government or even started by people WANTING information pointed.
According to the site that I had found pertained to ethanol production and where the stocks to produce it came from.

now you going to come back and tell me I am wrong or what ever but first of all lets see where I will disagree and since I dont have the time to go re-look up information you could find if you took a trip into something other than tainted sources (CBO numbers can be fudged, for lack of a better term to come to mind, saw a lot of that with Obamacare) (UN numbers well that place if ants tore it down and threw all the pieces of that corrupt place and its members into the ocean I would not care)(and those government agencies, well lets save more than anything by closing them and starting with something better or just not have them all together).
Now as for subsidies those were supposed to gradually die, they didnt the Democrat controlled government revived them and took out the gradual scale down.
Corn production and other grain production acreage have actually went up were many farmers were either leaving them untilled or as pasture land or as non production.
also one of the most wasteful things still out there is the Land Bank, still in effect since late 70s when Carter had farmer set aside land and get paid for it so as to not have surpluses as we were not selling to Russia and other countries so grain was rotting in silos.
Another little fact is that the EPA had a big hand in ethanol production( as the "findings" are not suspect as they were from independent sources and "verified" by them)in that an oxygenate MTBE which is a pollutant and found in ground water and they mandated the removal, but instead of rescinding the the rule to USE them they had to look for a replacement, cheapest and least corrosive, poisonous etc ,,,,ethanol.
So we also have that.
As for cellulosic ethanol, the technology isnt there and so far most of the big producers went bust, and others are still in the development phase,,,be a good idea if it ever gets perfected.
As for farming making more money, it has always been a fine edge on live or die in that respect and honestly I see many farms go away, and land re purposed, BUT I have also seen areas where the farmers are clearing MORE land and production is going up.
As my family is involved in farming I see many things, also as I live near one of the processing plants that make ethanol and other corn based products(HFCS, corn oil, DDG and wet cattle feed) I see many things that the move has done good. I also have not seen a dramatic rise in food prices OVER the devaluing of the dollar ie inflation. Regardless of suspect information.
I also have a hobby that can use ethanol so I like ethanol, I hope to USE it and benefit from its appearance as it WAS coming regardless of my sources or yours or any "facts or figures" these supposedly honest and ethical entities can produce (again out of your sources I trust exactly 2 and only IF I can see parameters set forth to collect theses so called facts and figures). and yes I will do some more research to locate older information I have read.
As for me, yes I would vote for using Ethanol use, intend to use it and honestly my family benefits so I am happier.
As for solar power, it depends on WHAT its used for. A family just down the road from me has installed both solar panels and solar water heating and their power consumption from old house to "new" house is about 60% less. Oh and reason he knows its a good decrease as the new house is identical to old house except when tornado took old house and damaged it he rebuilt from same blue prints, and while he did used a few newer products to help he has seen dramatic decrease and so far his increase in maintenance has been his kids get the fun of cleaning the panels once a week or every other week, bu then they get a good allowance,, I know as I am building the son a car "on paper" and he is saving for it and buying parts as we speak. his daughter has a horse and uses her funds to maintain him. But as he is getting older and less able to race(yep race horse, not sure what kind but they race him) she talks about moving him to her grandfathers and breeding him instead. Andshe is talking of building a car also.
The technology out in the world is incredible, the efficient use of what is in our face is up to us.
So you can spout numbers all day, some of which I disagree with, some I'll have to check up on.

Remember what you do with information is as important as a point you try to make with it.
IF I could save 60 percent on my electricity ( let me see who will figure this,,, oh yeah ME) Average of $135 a month x 12=$1620 x .40=$648.
DAMN I just paid for my brakes on one car in a year. IF I matched Dericks system it would cost me $6489 (as of todays price, I did check) so if I bought brakes AND did the solar assist and solar panels he has and related wiring and such it would take 6.6 yrs to pay off. And if I didnt count on buying $2000 in brakes 4 years, solar panels are repairable in sections and can recycle "cells" as needed to maintain efficiency cost of up keep so far has been ,for Derick, about $100 a year, thats replacing lexan panels and he has since started doing his own. His electric panel has only lost 7% efficiency in 2.5 years so he is ahead of curve as he was told he would need to replace/rebuild in 10 yrs but so far he figures on getting much more from them.
So bash away at me all you want, so far I see nothing that would stop me from using and enjoying my ethanol and ethanol powered cars, so I like it.
Oh and as for the enter thing, while I may write things one way so far this site has caused some issues in the way my posts come out. guess I need to look into that.
And I never have claimed to be perfect.

[Damn True]

Argumentum ad hominem and straw men do not constitute a compelling rebuttal.

Do you not see the paradox in your disparagement of the role of Government in terms of provision of data and funding studies and that of the UN in pointing out the folly of subsidization of agriculture yet in the same breath tout the glorious benefit of u̶n̶i̶c̶o̶r̶n̶ ̶t̶e̶a̶r̶s̶ ethanol as a fuel source? A fuel source which would not exist without rampant corruption of our Government by the agribusiness lobby that drives exorbitant subsidies, imposes punitive regulation and tariffs on competing technologies and increases the cost of goods of anything remotely connected to the commodity in question. Without governmental intervention corn based ethanol as a fuel source would not exist. There are innumerable reasons for that.

I don't as you said, "dislike ethanol". It's particularly pleasant when mixed with other distilled grains and left in an oak cask for about 21 years. I do however dislike having the money I earn stolen from me and given to someone who didn't earn it in the form of a subsidy. I dislike having my Government use said money to pick winners and losers in industry. I dislike tariffs and commodity price controls that result in further need for my money to be redistributed to other countries in the form of foreign aid that would be unnecessary without said tariffs and price controls. I dislike commodity price controls that stifle my ability to profit from speculatively investing in said commodity. I dislike having to spend more of my money than I should to buy damn near anything because corruption and socialistic thinking has driven the legislative fiat to foist on our economy an absurdly wasteful, inefficient and wholly unnecessary "technology".

[MonzaRacer]

Some new information people may want to read to get better picture of falsehoods perpetuated by others.




E85 ETHANOL MYTHS

1. E85 Ethanol is corrosive

Yes ethanol is corrosive, but not very much. Gasoline is corrosive too. Ethanol is biodegradable in water. So it has a tendency to contain and attract water. It is not the corrosive properties of ethanol that can cause damage to your vehicle; it is the water which can rust a vehicle’s fuel system from the inside out. Today’s vehicles (since mid 1980s) have fuel systems which are made to withstand corrosive motor fuels and rust from water. Also today’s distilling processes are superior to way back when. We now have better techniques for drying out ethanol or reducing the water content.

On side note, gas contains water too. Ever hear of dry gas?

2. If I put E85 in my gas tank, it will eat it away.

If your car was built in the old days, it was had a lead coated, steel tank. The water in ethanol would cause the tank to rust from the inside out. The government mandated that all gas in the USA contain 10% ethanol to help reduce tail pipe emissions. In the 1980s, automakers made vehicles with fuel systems to be ethanol and rust tolerant. Gas tanks began to contain polymers and Teflon which are extremely durable.

3. If I put E85 ethanol in my non-Flex Fuel vehicle, it will ruin it.

One tank won’t hurt. Some dealers are spreading rumors and charging $300-$3000 for one tank of accidental E85 use. This use may cause misfiring and a rough ride. Your check engine light will come on. If you should accidentally or on purpose put E85 in your vehicle, drain the tank, put in regular gas and all will be well. If you use E85 without a conversion kit or non-Flex Fuel capable vehicle for an extended period, you can damage your engine.

4. Ethanol will burn up my engine.

Ethanol has a lower ignition point than gas. Ethanol has about 115 octane and E85 has 105 octane. It burns cooler and will extend engine life by preventing the burning of engine valves and prevent the build-up of olefins in fuel injectors, keeping the fuel system cleaner.

5. Ethanol will ruin gaskets, seals, rings and more.

Running 100% ethanol or alcohol in an engine can cause damage to cork products.

The rubber neoprene used in the last 20 + years is resistant to the drying effect that ethanol may have.

Today's vehicles are built to withstand the corrosive effects of water in ethanol and gasoline. Any vehicle built since 1985 will have no ethanol related issues. Older vehicles that used more steel in the fuel systems or cork gaskets may have issues from long term exposure to water.

Vehicles in Brazil have been using ethanol for 30 years and they are completely free from using any foreign oil.

6. E85 will eat my rubber fuel lines.

This is another myth from the old days. Rubber technology has significantly advanced so the concerns of a 20 year old car or newer having issues like this are extremely rare. Plus the 15% gas will help keep lines lubricated.

7. E85 will destroy my fuel pump.

E85 won’t destroy your fuel pump. If you convert a high mileage vehicle to Flex Fuel, the E85 will cause the sediment in the gas tank to dissolve and then get sucked up by the fuel pump. It is believed that this sediment may shorten the life of the pump of your higher mileage vehicle (100,000+). We have had no reports from customers with damaged fuel pumps.

Video Proof: E85 does not harm engine, fuel lines, fuel pump, injectors, etc.

We do not recommend using E85 in your vehicle without an E85 conversion kit.

8. It takes more than a gallon of energy to make a gallon of E85.

This was true at one point in time. Today’s advanced technology and distilling processes actually create considerably more units of ethanol than units of energy used. The processes continue to advance and the ratio will continue to increase.

9. E85 Ethanol is worse for the environment than gas.

There have been some people who have published reports stating that E85 is worse than gas for the environment. They have yet to show any scientific proof or case studies that support their claims. Because E85 is cleaner than conventional gasoline, it emits less hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide and hydrogen. E85 reduces carbon monoxide emissions by as much as 70 percent — and less carbon monoxide helps reduce ozone formation and greenhouse gas levels. According to EPA, gasoline is the largest source of manmade carcinogens. Ethanol reduces overall toxic pollution by diluting harmful compounds found in gasoline such as benzene and other aromatics.

10. Using E85 ethanol will get 50% less mileage per tank.

There are some stories floating around about 50% reduction in mileage or twice as much ethanol is needed. Some of the automakers who introduced Flex vehicles did a terrible job with the fuel management systems that mileage did decrease as much as 50%. After some trial and error, the automakers have significantly improved their Flex systems and mileage conservation is within reasonable losses such as 5-15%. Conversion Kits like the Full Flex have been around for over 20 years. Realistic losses range from 5-15% as well.

11. Vehicles need more E85 ethanol so there is less power.

It is true that a vehicle does require more E85 than regular gas since the amount of energy per unit of ethanol is less than that of gas. Ethanol has a lower ignition temperature so the engine overall will run cooler increasing power. It also burns slower so instead of just burning out in one violent explosion forcing the piston down, it continues to burn the entire length of the piston stroke expanding gases more evenly and smoothly. So running E85 will give any engine more power over any pump gas. Also E85 is 105 octane. Gas comes in 85, 89 and 91 octane. The 105 octane of E85 will help to eliminate knocks and pings. All of these benefits will make an engine run smoother and quieter.

12. Won't E85 production deplete human and animal food supplies?

No, actually the production of ethanol from corn uses only the starch of the corn kernel, all of the valuable protein, minerals and nutrients remain. One bushel of corn produces about 2.7 gallons of ethanol AND 11.4 pounds of gluten feed (20% protein) AND 3 pounds of gluten meal (60% protein) AND 1.6 pounds of corn oil.

13. Ethanol does not benefit farmers.

The ethanol industry opens a new market for corn growers, allowing them to enjoy greater profitability. Studies have shown that corn prices in areas near ethanol plants tend to be 5 to 10 cents per bushel higher than in other areas. This additional income helps cut the costs of farm programs and add vitality to rural economies. The additional profit potential for farmers created by ethanol production allows more farmers to stay in business — helping ensure adequate food supplies in the future. Ethanol production also creates jobs, many of which are in rural communities where good jobs are hard to come by. A 2005 study by LECG found the ethanol industry powered the U.S. economy by creating more than 147,000 jobs, boosting U.S. household income by $4.4 billion and reducing the U.S. trade deficit by $5.1 billion by eliminating the need to import 143.3 million barrels of oil. Those kinds of numbers help farmers and all Americans.

14. Ethanol production wastes corn that could be used to feed a hungry world.

Corn used for ethanol production is field corn typically used to feed livestock. Wet mill ethanol production facilities, also known as corn refineries, also produce starch, corn sweeteners, and corn oil — all products that are used as food ingredients for human consumption. Ethanol production also results in the production of distiller’s grains and gluten feed — both of which are fed to livestock, helping produce high-quality meat products for distribution domestically and abroad. There is no shortage of corn. In 2004, U.S. farmers produced a record 11.8 billion bushel corn harvest — and some 1.3 billion bushels (about 11 percent) were used in ethanol production. Additionally, the 2005 crop was among the largest on record. 2007 will yield the largest corn crop since the 1940s. In other words, there is still room to significantly grow the ethanol market without limiting the availability of corn. Steadily increasing corn yields and the improved ability of other nations to grow corn also make it clear that ethanol production can continue to grow without affecting the food supply.