DSE vs Air Ride

[snSSter]

HELP !

Okay I have been saving up some cash to upgrade my suspension for one of my 67 Camaros. I have been so back and forth about this suspension combo that I am not sure what to do. So I am hoping for some outside input other than magazines and friends.

Right now I am either going for:

DSE’s Speed 2 Kit that includes Coilovers, Upper and Lower Control Arms, Coilover Conversion, and so on… For the Rear, I am planning on going with DSE’s Quadralink using their Minitubs to get fatter wheels in the back.

Or

I am planning on AirRide’s Front Strong Arm set up (Coilovers and Shockwaves) and their rear Four Link Air Bar set up (w/Shockwaves) but still using DSE’s Minitubs.

I have read a lot of articles about each of the set ups and heard great things about each of them, but I have yet to see anything that has paired them head to head (or I have not paid enough attention to see it). I also priced both packages and found them to be pretty close in total cost.

So I am asking you all for your feed back to help me decide what to do.

Thank you in advance for all the help and support.

[JEFFTATE]

Yes , there has been a direct comparison at a track !
During the Pro-touring / Musclerides .com RunThru the Hills 2 at Pigeon Forge Tn.
Search this site and musclerides.com .
There are comparison photos , videos , discussion, etc..
The cars were put head-to- head on a paved , banked oval track with an "x" in the infield to make a high speed autocross.
It was the Autocross from Hell !
There was even a direct comparison using the same driver !

[Mkelcy]

The short answer is that you needn't make such expensive changes to either the front or rear suspensions to get the car to handle well.

If you want the "bling," then of course the mere expense of the aftermarket suspension adds to the effect.

If you merely want a good handling car, at this point I'd suggest: the ATS tall spindles; new ball joints; C5 front brakes; front coil and rear leaf springs, shocks and a front sway bar from your favorite handling oriented vendors (DSE, GW, Hotchkis, Guldstrand); a third generation IROC steering box; a thorough rebuild of the steering; and weld in subframe connectors and then see where you are.

You can, of course, spend a lot more, as I am in my current build. :hand:

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

could Air ride shocks work with dse springs/leafs?

[darren@ridetech]

Although it is possible to install an air spring on top of the leafs, it's not the best option for performance but it will go up and down. The only way to lower with leafs is to pull out a couple leafs or install a lowering block. I recommend a 4 link.

[JChristian1835]

Hey just my two cents here.. which aren't much... I'm doing what seems like the same lines as what you are doing. The guy that ran the Pigeon Forge deal is a good friend of mine and he says that the DSE car was phenominal. So after talking with DSE and talking with him.. hands down I'm going with DSE's quadralink and the coilover front with the speed 2 kit with the minitubs...

[snSSter]

So far I have leaning more towards DSE all the way through, so that is some great feed back.

I am still up in the air, so I am hoping for more input.

[JChristian1835]

Yeah if you haven't already talk with Adam at DSE first class guy and will answer all your questions quickly and THROUGHLY... lol I think the smallest email he sent me was the equivilent of a small novel... haha.. but he covered every little question i could ever think about...

[JEFFTATE]

The DSE car worked very well , BUT the AIRRIDE cars worked very well also. It just depends on the capabilities you want from the car.

[Bow Tie 67]

I was at the RTTH2 with my 95 Camaro, which is setup for hard cornering. I had the pleasure of DSE's test car following me through some of the backroads at a nice clip. That 69 stayed on my butt and was perfectly level through some hard cornering. And as mentioned above it was very stable and fast on the auto x. The air ride cars did handle well, but I personally do not need a convenient way to change ride height.

I'm currently installing DSE's quadra link in my 69 and have to say it is a very well designed setup. Even the packaging for shipping was well thought out and professional.

[bret]

Yes , there has been a direct comparison at a track !
During the Pro-touring / Musclerides .com RunThru the Hills 2 at Pigeon Forge Tn.
Search this site and musclerides.com .
There are comparison photos , videos , discussion, etc..
The cars were put head-to- head on a paved , banked oval track with an "x" in the infield to make a high speed autocross.
It was the Autocross from Hell !
There was even a direct comparison using the same driver !

While considering my opinion, remember that I am quite biased :)
A couple of things to consider ...tunability of spring rate and shock valving is a huge asset that many people ignore when considering this suspension. At the Run to the Hills AutoX in Pigeon Forge we were able to dial in our cars very quickly to the extreme track conditions because of the easy adjustability. While the same effect could have theroretically been acheived with conventional components, it would have required component changes that are not feasible most of these type events.
While any suspension can be optimized for a given track or road, none can do it as quickly or as easily as an air suspension.
Specifically, the DSE Quadra Link requires cutting and welding of the floorboard to install. The AirBar requires no cutting or welding on the floorboard or body, and only minimal welding [4 tabs] to the axle housing. This does not mean either system is inherently good or bad...you just need to be aware of it. To some it matters not, to some it is a deal-breaker.

Just like Ford vs. Chevy, blowers vs. turbos, manuals. vs. automatics, I am sure [hope?] this subject will continue to be discussed and debated. I am also reasonably certain that when we demonstrate a clear superiority over traditional suspension , the traditional suspension guys will work their ass off to improve their product. I know for a fact that we are working ours off to make them do just that!

[snSSter]

I have read the everyone's point so far and I have to say thank you to everyone for their input. Whether its personal experience or where to get more information you all have been great. I see the upsides/downsides for each and it still blows my mind that I can go either or.

But, Bret brings up a great point about cutting up the floorpan (for DSE) and the fact of accessability of adjustment height. To me the quick adjustment is a benifit for me, living in Northern Calif where there are some great roads to push the limits on (givin those sirens aren't following me) adjusting the ride before the road would be cool. With the DSE, I would have take more time for me to dial in the ride.

So I am still torn. This is where I wish I had the money to buy both then I can see the difference my self.

[MonzaRacer]

Ok so I am severly biasedbut let me give you my take on differemces.
A DSE moded car will always ride like it rides and you have little control over drivability other than working on the shock rates (with adjustable shocks) and unless you carry around a NASCAR trailer full of springs ,,,you have what you bought. Now dont get me wrong the DSE stuff is awesome and I will give props to anyone making parts for any of our favorite cars.
Now as for ART set up you can dump the air and plant the car and(if equipt) be at ride height in a few seconds to couple of minutes depending on your line size and compressor/tank set up. Another thing is if you want to Power Tour you can pack the car for extended trip simply air up the system to regain ride height and tada your ready to travel.
The neat thing is if you can manipulate the buttons quick enough you can pull in and drop the car down as you park and it really freaks out people seeing you do it. AND i love dropping my truck at a cruize in and drop it right by a ricer, some ove them just dont get it.
OK now I have had my air ride from Bret and company and other than my measuring boo boo it has operated flawlessly. Oh and the ride and handling in a 78 C10 is pretty awesome even with 255/70/15 fronts and 30x9.50.15C rear and I like to climb up behind some of the local turbo'd ricers on the on/off ramps and ride with them as fast as they can TRY to run away from my truck.
Dont get me wrong all I have is cool ride front and rear and took out my leafs for a parallel 4 link and I made it all bolt on which they just started getting out for my model truck.
Let me tell you it gets me as many wows and whys and I like the "Dare to be different" attitude morethan anything.
If you want to try some cars call ART and ask if they would let ya go for a test ride/drive in some of the guys cars then book a redeye to Evansville Indiana and rent a car and driveto Jasper. I bet after you ride in a few cars and actually talk to the guys you will be even more torn.
I have a 77 Monza 2+2 and its getting the air treatment even thoughI am going to have to pony up for shock waves for my front. Now my car turns out a Mustang 2 set up works but I am still working up brackets/control arms for the rear.
And I am working with Mark over at SC&C to build some arms for H-bodies.
I may even swap in some C5 brakes (as I have swaped over to the S10/Gbody spindle) and then if all goes well a high winding all forged 283 with my prototype FlexFI w/DIS and try to run it on E85 as much as possible.
BUT the Air Ride Tech parts will be in there no doubt.
And for my truck it was the best, most economical choice and it rides/drive fantastic!.
Good luck and enjoy the ride what ever you decide.
Lee Abel

[1Fine69]

iam in the same exact boat as snsster. if you want the best handling deal which one would be better? we already established the easier install i believe

[dgoetz]

I have the air ride tech suspension w/coil overs and 220 lb sprs in the rear of my 68 Camaro and I use the car mostly for autocross and some street riding but not as a daily driver. What I don't understand is with air shocks if you lower your car by lowering your air press arn't you also lowering your spring rate? So in theory you are using higher spr rates in the raised for street position where you want the softer ride and lowering the spr rate in the lowered or racing position where you want the stiffer ride. that is why I chose to use the coil overs. I can still soften up the dampening of the shocks for street riding. But after driving the the car on the autocross courses I have never changed anything for street riding because the car handles so well set up for autocross that i don't want to change a thing. If i want a plush ride I'll drive my Toyota.
Is my thinking incorrect?

[1Fine69]

i hae the 3 inch dropped springs in the rear with qa1 shocks in the rear and there coilover system in the front....how would air ride or a 4 link handle compared to that? i have a things like framconnectors and such but it seems that what i have now is not up to par with the air ride or quadra link.

[ITLBTU]

I don't have either... I would think that the DSE is probably better for all out performance than the Air-Ride because of the longer arms, and the tuning ability. When you want to increase your spring rate you don't have to raise the car. When you raise the rate on the Air-Ride, the car will raise up, then then all of your alignment specs will change, not to mention roll centers, roll couple, axis... I do believe the Air-Ride is probably better in the rear than the leaf springs though.

[dgoetz]

i hae the 3 inch dropped springs in the rear with qa1 shocks in the rear and there coilover system in the front....how would air ride or a 4 link handle compared to that? i have a things like framconnectors and such but it seems that what i have now is not up to par with the air ride or quadra link.

I went from 3' drop leaf spr w/Qa1's, DSE offset shackles and G/W catagory five spherical bearings instead of bushings. To Air ride Tech suspension w/coil overs instead of air shocks and the difference is night and day. No more wheel hop, eliminated most of the oversteer. i even had the rear end move from side to side and hit the inner fender wells. I am running 315"s with mini tubs. and have none of those problems any more.

[wendell]

What's better; Mohamed Ali (in his prime) or New Coke Zero?

Rebuild the front end with a tall spindle and have a spring pack built for the rear. Take the remaining 5K and donate it to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. You'l end up with a very well handling car and the respect of both car people and every one else.

[Rick Dorion]

Or you can put in a tall upper balljoint for even less $. Mark at SC&C has good info and tall UBJs, among other products.

[Steve1968LS2]

The DSE car and the ART car were within a few tenths of a second of each other at the road track (RTHTH2).

Both have GREAT Customer Service.. just depends what you want to do.

[1Fine69]

i dotn like the sound of having to raise the car to increase spring rate though. dgoetz....what parts from art do you have running in the rear? is it this airbar system just with the qua1 shocks?

http://www.ridetech.com/productinfo/airbarstang.asp

[dgoetz]

i dotn like the sound of having to raise the car to increase spring rate though. dgoetz....what parts from art do you have running in the rear? is it this airbar system just with the qua1 shocks?

http://www.ridetech.com/productinfo/airbarstang.asp

I am using their complete kit minus their shockwave air shocks. I did modify two things. First, for the lower arms i removed the U bolt spr plates from the brackets and welded the brackets to the axle housing. That elimanated some weight and the U bolts to mount them. Second, The original upper shock brackets were to be mounted flush with the top of the frame but I moved them up two more inches above the frame in order to lower the car even more. That put the mounts into the trunk area so I had to have installed DSE shock covers inside the trunk.

[formula]

one thing that should be noted is that as you near your standard ride height, there is a significant amount of air pressure "wiggle room" that will maintain a similar ride height with relatively substantial changes in bag pressure and, thus, spring rate. I can inflate my rear springs from 85-120 psi with only about a 1" change in ride height. This covers virtually the entire driveable range of pressures, as anything below 75 is really too soft for spirited driving and anything above 125 is ridiculously hard, imo. So, yes, you do have to raise the car and the center of gravity to increase the spring rate, but it's not a direct sort of relationship...you can up your spring rate faster than you will ruin your CG.

[1Fine69]

thanks for explaining that dgoetz....i understand it much better now. and that info really makes me think about going the air ride route formula. if i went with the kit from art...which would you go with? the air bags or just use my qa1s?

[ProdigyCustoms]

Well, ya know what they say about opinions, and here is mine. I think all are good suspensions. I personally am liking the triangle 4 link over the 4 bar panhard set up. Weather you use shocks (Chris Alton G bar) or Air (Air Ride Technologies), you getting the same kit with different absorbers. Both of these set ups have a huge advantage over a Quadra Link for the home do it yourself, and that is 95% bolt in installation. Except for a few inches of welding on the axle tubes, the triangulated systems bolt into the body. So worse case scenario, if you are doing it at home without a welder, you can note the location of the rear end brackets, throw it in the trunk and get it welded somewhere without giving up the entire body to fabrication prison.

As for choosing between Air and Coil Overs. Were selling both. If the budget is there, I like the Air Ride Idea for adjustability, ride quality, and ride height adjustability. If the budget is tight, the G Bar is hard to beat at $1570, as evidenced by the fact we sold a few of them in the last couple weeks.

As for raising pressure / effective spring rates / raising the car with Air Ride? As Formula pointed out. Very little pressure changes in the window of useable rate hardly affects ride height at all, and by the time you change ride height enough to see a difference, your out of the usable range anyway.

Anyone considering suspension are welcome to call and discuss options. We happen to have availability to all 3 systems mentioned and can offer some un biased opinions.

[dgoetz]

One more thought about DSE as compaired to Air Ride is at the time a bought I don't think the DSE susp was available because I would of looked at that very seriously, I am more impressed with thier stuff than almost anyone's. On the Air ride stuff there is no place to run your exh system around your axle. I am running a 3' sys with the longer flow master 50's and had to exit them them right in frt of the axle towards the ground. I don't know if that is true with the DSE set up. If I went with a side exit like DrR Gases stuff I would actually have to bring the exh forword before i could exit it which would give me more than an 90 deg bend from the muffler.

[Mean 69]

Or, if you are really serious about the rear setup and don't have issues with cutting the car up a bit (for instance, as is necessary for the DSE kit) for installation, AND you'd like to run big ole tailpipes out the back (as in over the axle) that any competent muffler shop could easily install and doesn't require a custom fuel tank to do so, you could look at our setup (3-Link, Watt's, super cool, super functional). Ours is the only setup that allows the user to adjust roll center height, instant center location (i.e for higher/lower levels of anti-squat), roll steer characteristics, and of course ride height, all in a completely bind free fashion.

And by the way, we'll have answers shortly on how to run the AirRide Shockwaves on our setup for folks that are after that route as well. We have a customer doing a max effort 69 that will blow you away, using our system in combination with the Shockwave 7000's.

Cheers!
Mark

www.lateral-dynamics.com (http://www.lateral-dynamics.com)

[1Fine69]

wow this is awsome info....so many things to decide. all i know is that almost anything is better than my leafs! thanks so much

[MonzaRacer]

OK so I got to ride in a Camaro with the ART stuff,,,WOW WOW, WOW, um that car was BADDDD. A 427 SBC, TKO600 and ART all the way around and we took a favorite offramp I used to take to work in Bloomington Indiana (fella came over to have me tweak on the carb I built for him, it didnt like curves much),,,, well we gotthe carb set up and he tested it through that curve at well over 100 mph, dont get mewrong I NEVER would have rode if I knew he was going to do that on the highway,,but it was like 3 in the morning with no traffic either.
BUT still in that curve that I took my truck through a lot and liked to play with ricers on the aRT setup pulled all the way through and he had exhaust out back.
when we went back out on the 37 he made a 2 lb change in back and was satified with the change.
He told me that when on track he could change by as much as 7 or 8 lbs either way and never affect the height/stance but could tune the setup so quickly it was scary.
He loved it and had even taken off some DSE stuff as he wastrying for a different look/idea.
He never bashed the DSE stuff but the aRT setup fit his particular setup better.
I asked him if he had any problems with the tailpipes and he said he got them in stainless, then thermal barrier coated and then he wrapped a few inches next to the bags with a high heat wrap available at any good airport parts store or you could even use header wrap. He used Oeteker (CV boot) clamps to fasten that on the pipes and it had been on for close to 10k miles and looked great.
Good luck with what ever you do run.
Lee

[1Fine69]

so monza..... are you saying with the art setup i can run tailpipes? i got 3 inch over the axle out the back with delta force 40 flowmaster race mufflers. it took me months to get it to soudn right and i dont know if i could deal with any different sound now haha

[ProdigyCustoms]

And by the way, we'll have answers shortly on how to run the AirRide Shockwaves on our setup for folks that are after that route as well. We have a customer doing a max effort 69 that will blow you away, using our system in combination with the Shockwave 7000's.

Cheers!
Mark

www.lateral-dynamics.com (http://www.lateral-dynamics.com)

Now that sir is very intersting stuff.

[wendell]

Rick Dorion is spot on. I said tall spindle but a tall bj is equivalent. Regardless seems far more elaborate setups are in favor. All these guys with fancy setups must go aweful fast cause I know how fast the simple stuff can go.(fast)

If you're hell bent on a more intricate setup, follow PROBELL's lead. That car works. So does the Laterial Dynamics stuff.

[yellowrallys]

While both companies offer extremely nice pieces, I must admit to not having experienced the Air Ride set up. However I have a 1st gen Camaro with a few suspension mods, and I like the ride/performance/feel of the car. But after driving DSE's blue 69, I can tell you that it is an awesome suspension package. My wife's 06 Mustang's handling is nothing compared to that car.

[MonzaRacer]

The big trick is to insulate the pipe s and not get the air springs hot. There are several things that can be done like a custome heat shield hanging beside the spring even.
The camaro had the pipes flanged with owner built custom low profile flanges and he used allen bolts to smooth things out( I think I have pick but gotta put new batteries in the camera before turning it back on.
He decided he on trying to use his set up with pipes and the thermal barrier coating looked great, it would help in keeping the pipe wrap from degrading the pipes, he used multiple heat control items and has never had an issue with the Air Ride stuff.
The big trick is to keep the pipes clean(ie mandrel bent stuff) and he had it in multiple sections which kept his coating costs down.
I saw in one industrial catalogue there is even a ceramic coating available that will hold in 350 -650 degrees and never burn or degrade and is supposed to be very tough in the elements (its ment for smoke stacks).
A little research might give some better answers and Ill look for the pics this week after I find my extra batteries.
Lee

[1Fine69]

thanks aot for all the help...those pics will be a great help. i think orderign the air ride kit without the airshocks would help me out alot. im just not to confident with the spring setup. i always think about the rear moving on me. im actually having a problem right now. i started it up for the first time after sending the carb and distributor out while it was on jacks. i got it running correctly and went through the gears. everything is fine but in 5th gear at around 2200 a very bad humming/rumbling starts. it sounds like something is possibly missaligned. more diagnosis has to be done but this has never happened before.someone said possibly a bad wheel bearing?? hhmmmm:confused: anyone got any ideas?

[darren@ridetech]

Talk to Stainless Works for 67-69 Camaro tailpipes that will work with the AirBar; they are making one specific for it.