DSE Subframe official price

[Bill B.]

I see that DSE has officially put the price of their subframe on their website at $6700. I think some other folks had mentioned that it would be somewhere around this price.

Does anyone know what that includes?

Shocks?
Rack & pinion?
Brakes?

Bill B.

[Doug Cooper]

Kyle and Stacey had told me in Columbus that $6,700. includes everything but the brakes

[z4me69]

i saw it at the street rod nationals and it is awsome put it this way there is not another aftermarket sub that will be under either of my 69s just waiting for it to be available

[trapin]

Kyle and Stacey had told me in Columbus that $6,700. includes everything but the brakes
Tag on $3000 for some fancy Baer brakes and after taxes you've got $10,000 in just your front suspension alone....Wow! That's some serious coin. But I still haven't seen the numbers to prove that these aftermarket systems are any better than what Pozzi has stretched around a track. Who knows, maybe they are. But until then, I'll stick with the stock stuff. If Jeff Scwartz can backhand the competition in an '82 Fleetwood, then it's a safe bet the frame my car came with will do just fine.

In any event, I wish them the best of success with it. I hope they sell the hell out them. And I'm sure they will, no doubt it's a work of art in person. Still got a lotta love for that little company down in the Carolinas.

[Stuart Adams]

No need for the duct tape, you already spoke your mind, little late for tape. Bill wanted to know what the sub came with. Kinda like saying FU to someone then saying I love you two seconds later.

[trapin]

Stuart...a message board is a place for commenting not back patting. A discussion was begun on the DS&E subframe...I merely stated my opinion on it...like I have a right to do. Sorry if it doesn't jive with your opinion. I would never bash Kyle and Stacy...please don't misconstrue my tone inflection. If it helps I've edited it a bit.

[Stuart Adams]

Why the edit. Didn't hurt my feelings, Bill asked a simple question and it was already answered by someone else. What did you expect to accomplish by bashing the piece and price?

Don't insult my intelligence by telling me what a message board is, but then again your just commenting and I'm just back patting, right?

[novanutcase]

Sorry Stuart but I have to side with TRapin on this one. He is just stating that there aren't numbers to prove that this system is any better than stock. If YOU can provide those numbers and they show a marked improvement then T and I will be more than happy to apologize to you and whoever else was insulted because we spoke our minds. I'm sure DSE's system is great but I think the question that Trapin is posing is HOW MUCH BETTER! Is it really worth the money for the typical 99% street driven, 1% track driven car to go this route? Until we have the numbers that question cannot be answered. Sure it looks pretty and we all know the reputation that DSE has in terms of quality and performance but again numbers are what will be the deciding factor here.

[SatisTraction]

the more i hang around on this site the less i like "pro touring". it really is more like PRO SHOW and PRO MONEY!!! it really is kinda sickening.


now onto the subframe. it does look nice and would make your pro whatever car a notch above the others at the car show. now on the track, which most of thse cars never see, it may be better but that has yet to be proven.

[trapin]

Why the edit. Didn't hurt my feelings, Bill asked a simple question and it was already answered by someone else. What did you expect to accomplish by bashing the piece and price?

Don't insult my intelligence by telling me what a message board is, but then again your just commenting and I'm just back patting, right?

God here we go again. I am not insulting your intelligence, take it easy. Where is it written that unless you're gushing or heaping praise on someones product that you're not allowed to say anything about it? I did not "bash" their product, all I did was balk at the prospect of dropping that kind of money for a complete system...is that some kind of crime I'm not aware of? Did I say you shouldn't buy it? Did I say you were crazy if you buy it? HELL NO. To each his own, and God bless.

I understand your sensitivity to DS&E Stuart because they've done a lot of work for you, but don't ever try to paint me as a hater. Kyle and Stacy are the best in the business. I have known Stacy for a number of years from her days at GM and Kyle has been great everytime I've dealt with them. I have purchased several products from them in the past and will definitely purchase more in the future. I love Detroit Speed.

Good Lord...its getting to the point where you can't say anything short of praise or adulation without someone jumping down your throat around here.

[chicane67]

the more i hang around on this site the less i like "pro touring". it really is more like PRO SHOW and PRO MONEY!!! it really is kinda sickening.


now onto the subframe. it does look nice and would make your pro whatever car a notch above the others at the car show. now on the track, which most of these cars (will) never see, it may be better (looking) but that has yet to be proven.
I couldnt agree more.

[trapin]

Actually, I re-read my initial response to Stuart and it was a little condescending. For that I apologize.

[Steve1968LS2]

Please.. let's not have another discussion on "MONEY".. Different rides cost different amounts for different reasons. Sometimes a part is bought based on asthetics, sometimes on performance.. sometimes even for both (and that's where it gets REAL expensive). I've seen super low buck cars that I love (Alcino's Mustang, Lowbucks Nova) and high-dollar stuff I dig (Johnson Cuda, Fuel).

The variety is what makes the hobby fun. If you can afford the high-dollar stuff then go for it, if not then do your own thing. Either way the goal is to have fun and not to worry about what "joe blow" is doing to his ride.

If this thread gets all snotty I will lock it faster than you can say "whatchatalkinabout"

:)

[trapin]

Different rides cost different amounts for different reasons. Sometimes a part is bought based on asthetics, sometimes on performance.. sometimes even for both (and that's where it gets REAL expensive). I've seen super low buck cars that I love (Alcino's Mustang, Lowbucks Nova) and high-dollar stuff I dig (Johnson Cuda, Fuel). The variety is what makes the hobby fun. If you can afford the high-dollar stuff then go for it, if not then do your own thing. Either way the goal is to have fun and not to worry about what "joe blow" is doing to his ride.).
I couldn't agree more, Steve.

People have to remember though, that whenever you ask a question about a product on a message board (especially this one) it's going to naturally open a discussion about it. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as that discussion is civil. But I don't condone bashing people for what they do or the money they spend.

[Steve68]

I'm starting to agree with Adam(camaroboy) more and more

[Steve1968LS2]

I couldn't agree more, Steve.

People have to remember though, that whenever you ask a question about a product on a message board (especially this one) it's going to naturally open a discussion about it. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as that discussion is civil. But I don't condone bashing people for what they do or the money they spend.

Hey, I agree.. the board is about the free exchange of ideas and thoughts.

Not all products are going to be for all people.. that's why there's eleventy billion companies making suspension parts (of various costs) for first gen f-bodies.. lol

[Bill Howell]

the more i hang around on this site the less i like "pro touring". it really is more like PRO SHOW and PRO MONEY!!! it really is kinda sickening.


now onto the subframe. it does look nice and would make your pro whatever car a notch above the others at the car show. now on the track, which most of thse cars never see, it may be better but that has yet to be proven.

I think it has, actually with DSE's blue test mule. If is hasn't yet, it will be, here, at our event, in two weeks. This part is definately Show AND Go.
Also, not every car here is about the promoney. I have just finished up on my malibu, and am looking forward to seeing how it stacks up against some high buck builds at our event. The total cost to build it is under 25K and hopefully it will show up some of the higher dollar cars.

Sorry to highjack the thread.
I have however seen the DSE frontend up close and personal and I really liked it. I have never bought anything from DSE, since I have not built a first gen camaro lately, but I really like the looks and performance I have seen out of their mule.
Again, we can debate/bench race parts, money spent, and pros /coms about them, or we can put them on the track and see the difference. I can not wait till we can see some real world comparisons between say DSE and Lateral Dynamics. Hopefuly next year, we can have that here at our annual event. Rather than argue about the parts, I think we should all be glad there are companies out there striving to make more and better parts. Until a couple months ago, us G-body guys did not have much in the way of suspension upgrades, but thanks to ATS we now have spindles that also lend themselves to brake upgrades. Yes, they cost more than the well known B-body conversion, and yes, I surely hope ATS makes money on them. That way they can create more neat peices. While I do think you can build a quality peice without breaking the bank, if you do go that extra step, and buy upgrades, I prefer spending my money on parts that have been well engineered and tested, rather than save a buck on knock offs. Does it cost $6700 for DSE to build a front clip, of course not. However, I am sure they will have to sell many copies before they break even on their investment in time, design, research and hydroforming. Will they make a profit sooner or later? Let's all hope so, so they can stay in business and make more cool parts. Who knows, maybe they will start doing some G-body stuff one day.....lol
Remember guys, PROFIT is not a bad word. It is what has made American great for over 200 years now.


<--off soapbox now.

[Stuart Adams]

Tony, no big deal. If I overreacted about DSE new sub I apologize. Their new subframe consists of very expensive engineering. I guess I just have problems with people bashing prices of products, cars, etc., I don't think it provides a healthy environment.

[jeffandre]

This site has changed, for the better in some ways, but anytime you have a 'society' that experiences the percentage of growth like this one, coupled with the fact that we all deal with each other through a keyboard, there are bound to be growing pains and occasional hurt feelings.

I remember the first time someone sent me to Corner Carvers for some info, I was blown away that people actually treat each other so poorly. We can accomplish much more by being civil and remembering that it is we who choose to take things personally. If someone criticizes me or is harsh towards me, I look at it as their problem and choose not to make it mine. I still check out Corner Carvers occasionally, I just act like the harsh treatment doesn't exist.

And Bill makes a great point, we need companies competing against each other to make awesome parts, and if they are priced out of the range we would consider, at least there is hope that the tech will become affordable for guys like me in time.

We make this site what it is, and it is up to us to keep our heads up and enjoy the wealth of knowledge and feedback for what it is, a goldmine that was never available to previous car crafting generations. I'm off my soapbox now, so let's continue having fun!:3gears:

[baz67]

Who gives a crap how much anyone spends on their car? I know I do not. If someone looks down on another because they built on the cheap, screw them. If someone looks down on another because they wrote a check, screw them too. It is all about the car. As long as you are happy with what you have. If you are not happy with the car then change it. Be it by writing a check or doing it on the cheap, does it really matter? Here the end does justify the means by having a car you are happy with. Remember, every car on this site someone put some hard work into it to make it what it is.

[victionone]

Who gives a crap how much anyone spends on their car? I know I do not. If someone looks down on another because they built on the cheap, screw them. If someone looks down on another because they wrote a check, screw them too. It is all about the car. As long as you are happy with what you have. If you are not happy with the car then change it. Be it by writing a check or doing it on the cheap, does it really matter? Here the end does justify the means by having a car you are happy with. Remember, every car on this site someone put some hard work into it to make it what it is.

I couldn't agree more.

Not proven? If the frame is stiffer, lighter, has better suspension geometry, rack and pinion steering, and can fit a wider tire, it has already proven itself. It is up to you to decide if those benefits are worth the cost.

[71nova]

Back to the subject of the DSE subframe. About 1 week before it was released I flew out to NC to check it out. I agree that we need the numbers, but I think they will come with time. I would be really surprised if it does not blow away the stock sub. The most important upgrade to me is that it allows for a 10 inch wide front wheel. One thing I noticed is that the a arms are longer than the stock ones. At least the uppers were. They use a corvette spindle so any brakes for the corvette would be a simple bolt on, and you have less unsprung weight due to the lighter weight spindles and hubs. It looked totally freaken bitchen on the blue camaro. I can not justify the price since I already have a lot invested into my front end, and will most likely go with the stock sub with ATS spindles. but I believe buying the DSE sub would have made things a lot easier and better performing than is possible without switching the sub. The tire difference alone can not be ignored.

[vanzuuk1]

If I had the money,( I never will) I would have dse build me a rolling chassis that was set up with their subframe,roll bar, four link and minitubs. I think it would be a perfect platform for the ultimate first gen, nice ride and handling and visually clean parts.
In the real world , I buy some dse parts and use them where I think they make the biggest difference.
I think a front end like that has value for the time it saves, if you can afford to buy it and bolt it on your project will move forward.
A lot of nice projects never see the road while years of weld grinding and painting eat up time.
Also, if you use the dse stuff,the answer to most problems is a phone call away,which is nice.

[Rick Dorion]

I admire and respect all DSE products as well as their expertise. The reality of my street car is that I would like maximum braking with my hydroboost setup so a wider front tire appeals to me. However, my budget leads me to a modified stock frame. I agree with Dirk, a DSE roller would be terrific.

[Steve Chryssos]

Two weeks!

We will, no doubt, see almost every permutation of stock to modifed chassis combination running on the same autocross track. Same surface, same weather and the same clock. No one can claim that this is an "end all" conclusive test, but it is the best side by side comparison to date.

Fuel: Upgraded stock clip/DSE Quadra-Link
DSE Test Car: DSE clip/DSE Quadra-Link
SW: Upgraded stock clip with leaf springs
Real Bob Johnson: Way too much power
My Car: Modified ARDF C4 clip/DSE leaf spring rear
Cuda: One-off bazillion dollar custom chassis
Air-ride: FOUR CARS with (duh) Air Ride Suspension
Prodigy: Wayne Due C4 Clip/IRS (convertible with channeled body)

And I'm sure there will be a number of stock clip/leaf spring rear cars with stock and modified parts. I count at least one dozen first gens on the guest list.

[Steve Chryssos]

Oh yeah, I see a number of modern benchmark cars on the list as well including a C5 Vettes, a WRX, Mustang GT's, 4th gen F-bodies.

Mike Strinich (Vintageracer) will be there. He's an experienced road racer. Maybe we can have him drive a bunch of cars to zero out driver variance.

[trapin]

Tony, no big deal. If I overreacted about DSE new sub I apologize. Their new subframe consists of very expensive engineering. I guess I just have problems with people bashing prices of products, cars, etc., I don't think it provides a healthy environment.
I'm with ya, Stu. If someone were to rip DS&E and call them crooks or their products junk, I'd be one of the first to jump on the back of their neck and start pulling their hair. And I'm sure that hydroforming process is not cheap either. It's all good.:cheers:

Actually if you think about it....with Wayne Due closing shop, a huge chunk of the market has fallen right into Detroit Speed's lap. They could stand to make a killing on these frames. 21st Century is the only competition out there that I know of, you don't see too many people running the Martz Chassis or Art Morrison stuff under these cars.

[ilovefirstgens]

Two weeks!

We will, no doubt, see almost every permutation of stock to modifed chassis combination running on the same autocross track. Same surface, same weather and the same clock. No one can claim that this is an "end all" conclusive test, but it is the best side by side comparison to date.

Fuel: Upgraded stock clip/DSE Quadra-Link
DSE Test Car: DSE clip/DSE Quadra-Link
SW: Upgraded stock clip with leaf springs
Real Bob Johnson: Way too much power
My Car: Modified ARDF C4 clip/DSE leaf spring rear
Cuda: One-off bazillion dollar custom chassis
Air-ride: FOUR CARS with (duh) Air Ride Suspension
Prodigy: Wayne Due C4 Clip/IRS (convertible with channeled body)

And I'm sure there will be a number of stock clip/leaf spring rear cars with stock and modified parts. I count at least one dozen first gens on the guest list.


Now theres only one problem.... DIFFERENT DRIVERS!

So for the cost of a round trip plane ticket I offer my services as car driver extrodinare, but good luck getting bobs cuda back!

[andrewb70]

Two weeks!

We will, no doubt, see almost every permutation of stock to modifed chassis combination running on the same autocross track. Same surface, same weather and the same clock. No one can claim that this is an "end all" conclusive test, but it is the best side by side comparison to date.

Fuel: Upgraded stock clip/DSE Quadra-Link
DSE Test Car: DSE clip/DSE Quadra-Link
SW: Upgraded stock clip with leaf springs
Real Bob Johnson: Way too much power
My Car: Modified ARDF C4 clip/DSE leaf spring rear
Cuda: One-off bazillion dollar custom chassis
Air-ride: FOUR CARS with (duh) Air Ride Suspension
Prodigy: Wayne Due C4 Clip/IRS (convertible with channeled body)

And I'm sure there will be a number of stock clip/leaf spring rear cars with stock and modified parts. I count at least one dozen first gens on the guest list.

This is going to be very interesting. This is the kind of thing a print magazine will never do.

Andrew

[Kenova]

I'd like to pose a question to the forum members who run shops.
A customer brings in a car (1st gen Camaro or '68 -'74 Nova). They want their car to handle better than most and are willing to spring for upper and lower control arms,steering improvements, brakes, and possibly spindles. It will be mostly street driven with maybe one or two track days a year. It has an unmodified front sub that is most likely tweaked enough to need straightening.
Do you recommend a full front end kit and steering box from one of the many manufacturers out there, or would you recommend the DSE front sub with factory 'Vette brakes?
Ken

[BADVELLE]

To each their own on the money side of the game, but this new subframe looks awesome, the packaging of the R&P is absolutely perfect. If any company puts that kind of engineering and design into a product, they can command (and receive) top dollar for it all day long. I do believe they have currently done extensive testing on Stacey's Camaro, so if there was not an advantage, DSE would not offer it. This product is built for performance & show.

[BADVELLE]

This is going to be very interesting. This is the kind of thing a print magazine will never do.

Andrew

What did I miss??? Why would'nt a print magazine ever do something like this, you mean from the pro-touring aspect?? Hot Rod just did their Pump Gas Drags, kind of the same, only going straight though. Guess I missed something, just wondering.

[Stuart Adams]

Craig, could not say it better myself. Kyle puts alot of research into products before they are ever offered to the public. Their subframe could have come out years ago, but they wanted it right before offering it. He puts form and function before dollars. Looking forward to the Pigeon Forge event info.

[harshman]

This is going to be very interesting. This is the kind of thing a print magazine will never do.

Andrew

i wish PHR would do this. ballsy - yes. but while it would make the advertizers quake a bit, the reader base would skyrocket.

[Steve Chryssos]

i wish PHR would do this. ballsy - yes. but while it would make the advertizers quake a bit, the reader base would skyrocket.

That's what we're hoping for. (Shameless plug ahead.) Visit http://musclerides.com. Most of the site is free, but for $12.95 per year, you will also get access to feature and tech articles right at your fingertips. No standing by the mailbox every month. These articles are written by ex-Primedia professionals such as Ro McGonegal, Stephen Kim and others (as well as Bill and I) There is already an in depth article on the DSE subframe--not just the press release, but a detailed article. In fact the article has been live for 30 days. But you won't see anything like it in a magazine for at least another 60 days. If you want detailed answers to your DSE subframe questions, go sign up for a subscription. magazine article index (http://www.musclerides.com/Pages/Features.php)
Furthermore, putting on this event provides an opportunity to abate some of the bickering that transpires on message boards. By teaming up with pro-touring.com, this site will benefit the most. Next year we will step up our event with a full on road course track day and 1/4 mile dragstrip action. This year's event is booked solid, but come on down if you want to spectate. Of course we will provide near instant coverage of the event on MuscleRides.com and pro-touring.com as well as coverage in Popular Hot Rodding.

[Steve1968LS2]

Now theres only one problem.... DIFFERENT DRIVERS!

So for the cost of a round trip plane ticket I offer my services as car driver extrodinare, but good luck getting bobs cuda back!

And different stickiness of tires.. and whether the systems are set-up properly.. lots of variables but it should be fun :)

[Steve1968LS2]

This is going to be very interesting. This is the kind of thing a print magazine will never do.

Andrew

lol.. we test stuff all the time and those numbers can be compared to other cars (both stock, new and modified) that have been tested before. We run through a set series of standardized tests. However this tests the system as a whole and any individual parts. Then again these cars are all about the whole system and not the specific part.

The event at pidgeon forge is hardly scientific. There are dozens of variables that could cause one car to have a better time than another car. If one car has a GW front suspension and a DSE rear and it does better than a DSE front car with a morrison rear then was it the GW front stuff, the DSE rear stuff or a combination of the two that gave it the quicker time. Was it just a better driver or maybe better tires? Maybe the quicker car was lighter or had a better weight distribution and it had nothing to do with company's A or B's parts. (insert shrug here)

However, it should be fun and we should be able to gleem some info from the results.


i wish PHR would do this. ballsy - yes. but while it would make the advertizers quake a bit, the reader base would skyrocket.

Do you mean like when we base test, bolt on parts and then test the car again? (ie. the Air Ride Tech stuff)???

;)

[harshman]

Do you mean like when we base test, bolt on parts and then test the car again? (ie. the Air Ride Tech stuff)???

;)


Nope.


While that was a great test, I'm referring to the A-Arm scam that most young PT'rs buy for their cars at $600 a pop. I'm referring to the lack of improvement that most a-arms provide. I'm speaking of the many parts that the public purchase that don't do a damn bit of good but look great and no magazine is willing to point this out. I'd like to see ATS spindles vs any arm out there. I'd like to see stock-ish low budget disk breaks with Hydroboost vs Bears ultimate with a vacuum pod. I'd like to see break tests, suspension tests and performance tests and most of all I'd like to see a magazine that had the balls to say that this shiny part here (that you can buy on page 5) is a bishen paper weight. I want a magazine that welcomes the sponsor into the office and makes them prove their products actually perform before they are able to have the privilege to advertise. Sounds a bit revolutionary but I'm bettin' it would be worth a try. After all, performance is what we, the consumers, are after. Pretty parts that only shine belong in the Goodguy's publications.


Steve, I am not pissy with you at all. I just want the average guy to be informed about how to have the greatest ride possible. Lord knows it took me $3k to scratch the suffice.

[Bill Howell]

Nope.


While that was a great test, I'm referring to the A-Arm scam that most young PT'rs buy for their cars at $600 a pop. I'm referring to the lack of improvement that most a-arms provide. I'm speaking of the many parts that the public purchase that don't do a damn bit of good but look great and no magazine is willing to point this out. I'd like to see ATS spindles vs any arm out there. I'd like to see stock-ish low budget disk breaks with Hydroboost vs Bears ultimate with a vacuum pod. I'd like to see break tests, suspension tests and performance tests and most of all I'd like to see a magazine that had the balls to say that this shiny part here (that you can buy on page 5) is a bishen paper weight. I want a magazine that welcomes the sponsor into the office and makes them prove their products actually perform before they are able to have the privilege to advertise. Sounds a bit revolutionary but I'm bettin' it would be worth a try. After all, performance is what we, the consumers, are after. Pretty parts that only shine belong in the Goodguy's publications.


Steve, I am not pissy with you at all. I just want the average guy to be informed about how to have the greatest ride possible. Lord knows it took me $3k to scratch the suffice.

Very well put. I bought, at retail, the new ATX spindles for that very reason. I did not want my opinions or tech article to be swayed by a discount. I have met both Tyler and Shane, and they even helped me with the goat last year at SEMA. However, to be true to myself, I could not push their spindles without truely knowing they were better, in real world driving. Being a regular car guy, not a suspension guru, I figured I was a good test model. So far, the install went absolutely as planned, with the exception of my TTII's not being correct as far as backspacing. By the time we have the event here, I will have put some hard test miles on the malibu, and will know 90% of the answer. Right now I am very limited to "testing" until the new offset wheels arrive, but I can say this, the car is definately different. If feels much more stable and sure footed. I guess the autocross will be as good of a test as I can do in the short term, but beleive this, I will call it like I see it, good or bad.
The problem is, most suppliers ads only tell the plus side of the story and we as dumbass consumers buy every word.
Sure, the event here in two weeks will not answer all questions, but at least we will not be bench racing on Sept.17. We will have enough modern cars there and enough qualified drivers, that we will know what systems work, given each cars weak link. I know I plan to let SW drive my car, as I feel he has as much seat time as anyone. I also know he will give me true feedback, not tell me what I want to hear.
There is probably a better way to get some true numbers of this part vs. that part, but so far I have not seen or heard it actually being done. Anyone that want to step up though and put their money where their mouth is??? I am all ears!!!!!!!!

OK, I stole the thread again, SORRY.

[Steve1968LS2]

Nope.


While that was a great test, I'm referring to the A-Arm scam that most young PT'rs buy for their cars at $600 a pop. I'm referring to the lack of improvement that most a-arms provide. I'm speaking of the many parts that the public purchase that don't do a damn bit of good but look great and no magazine is willing to point this out. I'd like to see ATS spindles vs any arm out there. I'd like to see stock-ish low budget disk breaks with Hydroboost vs Bears ultimate with a vacuum pod. I'd like to see break tests, suspension tests and performance tests and most of all I'd like to see a magazine that had the balls to say that this shiny part here (that you can buy on page 5) is a bishen paper weight. I want a magazine that welcomes the sponsor into the office and makes them prove their products actually perform before they are able to have the privilege to advertise. Sounds a bit revolutionary but I'm bettin' it would be worth a try. After all, performance is what we, the consumers, are after. Pretty parts that only shine belong in the Goodguy's publications.

Steve, I am not pissy with you at all. I just want the average guy to be informed about how to have the greatest ride possible. Lord knows it took me $3k to scratch the suffice.

Oh, I know you're not being pissy :) -- it's all good. Keep in mind that sometimes people just want a shiny, pretty part and 90% (or more) of the cars will never see a track. We test what we can but stuff like suspension parts are difficult at best to scientifically quantify since there are so many other variables involved. It's not as simple as a cam swap or blower install.

The "prove your parts before you can advertise" will never happen, not even on the internet... but it is a cool concept. I went to a car show today and saw that a vast majority of the people in this hobby go for form WAY over function. unfortunatly.

And if the ART air-spring system would have not worked we would have said so.. in a very nice and non-offensive manner.. lol

Oh, and I am ALL OVER wanting to do the Hydroboost system test. I think it would be easy to do and it's very low on the variables that could screw it up. A car with a stock disc/vacuum system - test it - add the hydroboost - test it. Get a car with a killer aftermarket brake system - test it - add the Hydroboost - test it. It would be very good info to get.

[Bill Howell]

I hear you Steve, sooner or later the all mighty dollar always wins out.:crying:

[MStennes]

I'm with ya, Stu. If someone were to rip DS&E and call them crooks or their products junk, I'd be one of the first to jump on the back of their neck and start pulling their hair. And I'm sure that hydroforming process is not cheap either. It's all good.:cheers:

Actually if you think about it....with Wayne Due closing shop, a huge chunk of the market has fallen right into Detroit Speed's lap. They could stand to make a killing on these frames. 21st Century is the only competition out there that I know of, you don't see too many people running the Martz Chassis or Art Morrison stuff under these cars.

Art Morrison, is picking up Wayne Dues sub. I for one would love to have a DSE sub, but after all the work I have done on my stock ut modified sub is it worth it for wider tires and once a year to the track? I'm still thinking than I have to figure what to do with my old one. But somehow there will be a DSE under one of my first gens.

[Steve1968LS2]

I hear you Steve, sooner or later the all mighty dollar always wins out.:crying:

Well, it doesn't win.. but it's always a consideration. Especially when it comes to practicality. I certainly couldn't afford to buy and test every item from every seller in our magazine to make sure it's "worthy" of being advertised.. especially those penile pills.. lol

[Bill B.]

WOW!!
It's been a while (couple of years) since I posted anything on here. When I asked the question, I was just merely curious. I'm amazed at where this thread has gone... interesting stuff.

And sorry to have gotten folks ruffled up there a bit. I certainly didn't count on that. Glad you guys cooled off.

I sure appreciate you guys sharing your knowledge in so many directions on this. It really was interesting.

Bill B.

[gEtyOpAPiOn]

if i had money like that i would buy that subframe in a blink ...any one willing to sponsor me ? lol