68 charger with a Cummins [Archive]

edog1

06-27-2006, 07:32 PM

ilovefirstgens

06-27-2006, 07:49 PM

welcome!

but have you ever heard of weight?

MrQuick

06-27-2006, 07:50 PM

I just so happen to know the place. its www. youpsycotoomuchinhalingthehalfburntkerosenetypefue ls. com
Well you don't have to go there just ask away here cause im a 7 year level 4 trained Cummings tech. Also Dennis68 is highly trained as I think that RTdakota guy can help too. I just hope you have a real tall hood. Should be an interesting undertaking.

TSSPAYNE69RS

06-27-2006, 08:14 PM

I have a cummins and a camaro. Can't say that I would ever consider crossing those genetics! It will be unique.

PeteRR

06-27-2006, 08:18 PM

The biggest problem is the Cummins is tall. A lot taller than a big block.

Madspeed

06-27-2006, 08:22 PM

WOW
Im speechless the poor Bast4rd looks for a few answers and gets FLAMED.

Its funny though :hah:

Anywho it oughtta be real interesting I say go for it

Y-TRY

06-27-2006, 08:25 PM

Maybe not a Cummins, but I think a turbo-diesel in a hi-performance auto would be cool. Isn't Banks working on a race truck like this?

edog1

06-27-2006, 08:45 PM

Thanks for the replies
I do know the weight will be an issue. The cummins weighs about 350lb more than the 440. Im concerned if I will need to install a full cage to help support the extra weight and torque of the engine.
Here is a link some of you might like I did. www.bankspower.com/camaro.cfm (http://www.bankspower.com/camaro.cfm)

OHCbird

06-27-2006, 08:47 PM

Do what you want- I'm installing a turbo'd 4.2 Trailblazer engine in my 68 Firebird.

Blown353

06-27-2006, 08:51 PM

I love fast diesels, a couple of my close friends are now running in the mid to low 12's and trapping over 110mph with their 4 door 4wd 24V Dodges and I have another friend with a Duramax nipping at their heels... and another friend with a 6.0 PowerJoke who really wants to keep up but only succeeds at pumping coolant out of the headgaskets.

That being said I think this is a marriage destined to fail. The Cummins is long, heavy, and tall... REALLY tall. Did I mention heavy? You may end up with a 12 inch "Pro-Eliminator" cowl hood to clear the sucker! Not to mention the massive weight will certainly impose penalties of its own when it comes to handling prowess unless you're talking an engine setback measured in feet. You'll be sitting where the backseat used to be probably.

Now, set that thing way back, cant it to reduce the overall height along with going drysump so you can reduce the overall height even more and we may be onto something. :geek:

Still, it would be really weird to see this '68 Charger coming down the road making a bleeeeeeAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH sound as it smokes by...

And don't forget to give the Audi R10's a run for their money when you're done!

edog1

06-27-2006, 09:14 PM

It would definitely have to have a turbo.
I havent commited 100% to taking the project on I just wanted to get some info and get a few ideas before I decided.

PeteRR

06-27-2006, 09:18 PM

It would definitely have to have a turbo.

An ISB would have zero power without a turbo. The 1st thing to do is get the dimensions of the CTD and see if it'll even remotely fit.

Matt

06-27-2006, 09:39 PM

I thought about something like this. Diesel race cars have won plenty of races. BMW has done well, as has audi. The new audi r10 race car is a seriously slick bit of machinery. what are you gonna do about the tranny though?

Madspeed

06-27-2006, 11:11 PM

David Sloan

06-28-2006, 03:40 AM

CAN YOU SAY mid eng! No back seat. weight would not be as big of a problem!!
Just a thought!!!
Damn somebody hit my truck really hard. I want the cummings out of it!!!LOL!!!

ProStreet R/T

06-28-2006, 05:05 AM

Wow a CTD PT car, that would be umm... interesting.

Weight is going to be the big killer here. I don't know the exact specs, but if the complete engine is under 900lbs I would be surprised.

Mid engine is never gonna work. There isn't a transaxle on the planet that will bolt to a cummins block, let alone take all the torque that thing puts out.

Trans will be a big problem as well. You can use a 47/48rh dodge 4spd auto, but the weight KILLS. Thats another 300lbs of tranny and torque converter.

You'll have to gear it super low, 3.27ish to start and get a tranny with a good OD. Remember even with a bunch of mods you will be lucky to see 4000rpm out of a 24v ctd.

I like the diesel idea, but why not look into that V10 diesel from the VW Toureg, or some of the mercedes diesels. Something taylored more toward cars and not so much an 8k/lb truck.

JMarsa

06-28-2006, 07:14 AM

I have to agree with the comments directing you to a car based solution. Unless you were doing a mixed use El Camino type vehicle it really doesn't make alot of sense. After all the pair of Audi's that just won LeMans were only in the 5L range. If you already have the engine and are determined to go the diesel route, sell it and buy a car or boat based solution. There are alot of marine diesels in nthe 3-4L range that many people are not aware of.

--JMarsa

Elusive R

06-28-2006, 07:45 AM

www.bankspower.com/camaro.cfm (http://www.bankspower.com/camaro.cfm)

Isn't that car a twin turbo gasoline V8?

I don't think the Cummins deal would work out, but maybe a diesel V-engine like a Powerstroke or Duramax. I'll have to look around, I thought I had measured a Cummins for someone once before (used to test with one on a dyno).

Ryan

Foudie

06-28-2006, 09:53 AM

BigDan

06-28-2006, 01:44 PM

Ok first off people can make ANYTHING work. It all depends on how deep your pockets are.

OK size and weight aside I think you need be be schooled in current light truck diesel tech. From reading your posts and other posts it doesnt sound like you know much about the cummins or diesels.

Dont listen to the stupid people. Are you going to want a stock HP diesel or a 550 HP smoker. If you want power budget yourself $5,000 on a full billet 47rh. Dont listen to the "get an allison" or "get banks" all thoes people do is open up a mag or watch TV and think they know their chit, by naming off companies that have the $$$ to pay for thoes marketing ads. A stock allison is good until 370HP and then newer ones to 400HP same for most any stock trans.

Now on to the engine you should go with a mechanical 12Valve Cummins since thats what you posted about. Dont call Banks because they dont make anything you need.

I would first learn about diesels and cummins conversions at www.tdr1.com (http://www.tdr1.com).

There's way too much for me to tell you. My best advise is go over to the Turno Diesel Registry and learn, because your not going to learn anything over here.

Good Luck:)

BigDan

06-28-2006, 01:51 PM

I was not going to ever post anything about this, but a friend of mine has me thinking about converting my long bed single cab 24V cummins work truck into a short bed 12 second "somewhatofacornercarving" street truck. Sorry for the thread jacking.

The 18" of frame and bed wont affect much in performance. I mean the quickest Disel Truck is a crew cab long bed 4x4.

Leave it simple, the long bed isnt going to hurt you at all...

dr_amx

06-28-2006, 01:53 PM

Just for grins I know that the 12v weights some where over the 1100 lbs range but I still think it sounds like an awesome idea if you are a great fabricator

DusterRT

06-28-2006, 02:27 PM

When funds allow and I can justify it, I want to get a full size wagon like a Fury or New Yorker and "drop in" a CTD for a tow vehicle. It will take some serious beefing up of the front end and there will likely have to be some changes in the overall design (ie, change to front steer for clearance), but there really isn't going to be a bigger platform to work with, and you could probably fit a small car in the back too!

Foudie

06-28-2006, 02:41 PM

The 18" of frame and bed wont affect much in performance. I mean the quickest Disel Truck is a crew cab long bed 4x4.

Leave it simple, the long bed isnt going to hurt you at all...

Just for looks sake

edog1

06-28-2006, 04:09 PM

Yes ,It's a gasoline TT I came across it and though a few people might enjoy seeing it. I hope the link hasnt been posted here a bunch of times.Im also a Camaro owner.

Isn't that car a twin turbo gasoline V8?

I don't think the Cummins deal would work out, but maybe a diesel V-engine like a Powerstroke or Duramax. I'll have to look around, I thought I had measured a Cummins for someone once before (used to test with one on a dyno).

Ryan

edog1

06-28-2006, 04:31 PM

Thanks for all of the responses. I never considered using a newer diesel engine out of car. There are some valid points to do so and I will conside all the options If I decide to build this project.
I wanted to use the 12v Cummins because of the mechanical injection. I know the size and weight is a major issue. I understand it will require alot of fabrication to make the swap a safe and nice looking car without looking like a hack job.
What are your recommendations for beefing up the front suspension ? Would an air ride suspension help or would the extra weight still stress the suspension componets to a breaking point.

edog1

06-28-2006, 04:38 PM

I now realize this may not have been a great topic for my first post I should have expected some flames from people because I dont have reputation established in this community. I have worked on cars for sometime now and Im not an expert but this isnt my first BBQ .

PeteRR

06-28-2006, 04:44 PM

There are no crazy ideas only crazy people who come up with them. ;) If they can fit a Viper motor in a b-body, then a Cummins will fit also. You'll probably have to fab a custom k-member that will sit the engine lower in the car. I'm pretty sure the stock framerails won't take the weight. You might have to construct a reinforced set of framerails and graft them to the car.

WS6

06-28-2006, 04:46 PM

I think it would be totally badass if you can make it work and look good. Good luck.

ProStreet R/T

06-28-2006, 04:49 PM

I wouldn't trust ANY of the stock suspension components to hold that kind of weight. You're talking DOUBLE the weight of a cast iron big block, plus a trans that is huge as well.

It will need to be built like a 3/4 ton truck on the front end.

IMO air is the ONLY option. Have you ever seen the size of the springs on the front of a diesel pickup? Even one upgraded with coilovers? The wire size and coil profile is insane.

Also, you will need an insane set of shocks for it, especially if you intend to keep it sitting low. You will need to talk with some shock builders and see if they can valve them stiff enough for the weight and spring rate. And then if they will even do it, due to the crazy heat that super stiff valving will generate.

Even the stock frame will be questionable. IMO a full cage will be needed just to support and brace everything.

IMO you will run into a ton of little logistical issues. Even just running a 5-6" exhaust out the back won't be fun. And then trying to combat the almost inevitable 70/30 weight distribution.

Oh and you can all but forget running any type of light bling bling wheels.

And thats not even getting into the possible issues with hub/spindle failures, what to do about brake upgrades, etc.

In the end it will be unique, but you'll easily have $50k sunk into something that is slower than a well built 340, and an absolute nightmare to work with.

Beige

06-28-2006, 05:24 PM

http://dieselpowermag.com/tech/chevy/0604dp_cummins_engine_swap/
That's what it takes to put a cummins 6 into a chevy truck which already had a 6.5 diesel. Which has no real bearing on this swap, except that you get to see the engine in a nonstock application.

BigDan

06-30-2006, 03:42 PM

Dont worry about wheels. They make plenty of bling wheels for 3/4 tons, just open up a truck or diesel power mag. Exhaust 3.5 or 4" will be just fine....I dont know anything that NEEDS 6". Airride wold be the way to go. The front end needs to be beef but not crazy 1" plate and hardware. Just look at 2WD CTD's front suspension.

I was also thinking about doing this swap when I picked up my 72 Monte Carlo. Damm have you seen the room under that hood!!!! Its the longest hood Chevrolet ever put on a car.... But then I came back to reality. One thought about spending another $5,000 on a built tranny brought me back to reality. That and 'm trying to limit the HP I own. I'm still out of work from near fatal accident. I'm keepin it safe and slow now days. I use to have a 600HP Daily Driver CTD w/ twin turbos, until it totalled a Kenworth...

If you decide to do it keep us posted and research everything at other diesel boards.

Good Luck

edog1

06-30-2006, 04:02 PM

I could buy a 2wd Dodge truck with a cummins and strip the body off the frame and put the Charger body on the truck frame. LOL

CraigMorrison

07-02-2006, 06:25 PM

Hello

I have been lurking around here for awhile now and would like to say i like this forum.
Im going to buy a 68 Charger and I have been thinking of building something different. Im considering installing a 12v cummins in place of the 440. Do you know of any links for this type of build ?
Thanks for your time

Daring to be different........ Cool!

We had a guy stop by the shop with a 1950 Husdon Hornet with a complete drivetrain out of a dodge Ram truck, Turbo diesel, trans, rearend and single 5" exhaust. Completely stock on the outside, even the stock hubcaps. It was very cool. Sorry no pics.

PeteRR

07-02-2006, 06:43 PM

Daring to be different........ Cool!

We had a guy stop by the shop with a 1950 Husdon Hornet with a complete drivetrain out of a dodge Ram truck, Turbo diesel, trans, rearend and single 5" exhaust. Completely stock on the outside, even the stock hubcaps. It was very cool. Sorry no pics.

That sounds like a cool car! If you get the chance to see it again, pics would useful. The biggest difference between the Hudson and the Charger is the enormous amount of height in the engine compartment in the Hudson.

Bill Howell

07-02-2006, 08:08 PM

SO I am just now reading this thread. A couple observations here.
I get the feeling edog knows more than he is sharing.
I think it is a cool idea as long as you can get some weight off the front end. Mid engine works for me.
I am looking forward to watching this come around.:headbang:

go-fish

07-02-2006, 08:25 PM

I think MRQuick is a "7 year Level 4 Cummings tech", cause I work on engines called Cummins. Whoever suggested an Allison trans. probably doesn't know that one of the best diesel trans is already behind the 12V, essentially it is a kick azz Torqueflite. Man if you can do it, do it. Do it well and you wil be the man, if you try and fail or fail to try, you won't be labled a loser or anything, just a guy with a guy idea. If I were going to build a car around a medium duty diesel engine like a 12V, I would stick it in a Nomad or 70 Suburban. If you want to build a car and are open to suggestions, how bout a Liberty CRD, upgraded turbo, get a bottle of 'pane and NOS in the trunk and put it all together in an itsy bitsy, teeny weeny 1st gen Dart! They are alot cheaper than '68 Chargers, lighter, different, and it is a Mopar with a Mopar engine. I can see it now at SEMA at the MP booth. I'm making this suggestion and getting excited about it myself.

Madspeed

07-02-2006, 08:55 PM

Whoever suggested an Allison trans. probably doesn't know that one of the best diesel trans is already behind the 12V, essentially it is a kick azz Torqueflite.

Well I guess I learned somthing =) thanks for setting me straight

go-fish

07-02-2006, 09:17 PM

I wasn't rippin' on ya. But you would expect if a person is certified in somethin and see the manufacturer name on components, castings, boxes, paperwork, etc., they should know how to spell Cummins.

MrQuick

07-02-2006, 11:35 PM

Yeah...ok, im a better tech than a typer. Please don't rip if you don't know me. Im a very helpfull person and don't need crap from a guy that hangs on every word. If you are, you can hang on this one... "seven".

But seriously, "Cumming" is a shop joke and it sticks in my tiny twisted mind. As then transfers to hand then keyboard. I thought some (Dennis) would catch it.

Don't get me wrong, I have a very good sence of humor when stuff is funny and I enjoy a good rogering when I deserve it. btw, welcome to the site.

So im not blasted for "non topic pirate". I think it can happen, would take alot of enginearring but its possible. THERE!

edog1

07-03-2006, 09:42 PM

What are your thoughts on using a Tubular K-Member ? Will it allow me to mount the engine a little lower ? I know it will help reduce some of the weight and allow for more brake options.
I appreciate everyone who has taken the time to respond to this thread.
Does anyone have a junk 12v long block laying around I can use for a mock up?

MrQuick

07-03-2006, 10:07 PM

If anything your going to have to lower and move it back a bit. K member...you might have to drop it(engine) lower than the k members ability. The steering will be an issue too. Bottom line, custom or severely modified k member with front steer. Wait, it is rear steer right...its been awhile since i've been under a b body. Memory serves me not. Im an ebody guy.
Idea, drop and back so you can run the steering link through a notch in the pan between 2&3. Notch the member and reinforce the front of it. I think a fabricated member is on order... big 6 pack hood and a gutted cowl might be too.
Take a look what OHC did t fit his GM straight. Same principle/idea.
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19012
*note: sarcasm removed and spell checked twice to avoid confusion.

Ron S

07-04-2006, 05:20 AM

Although you would be the only one on your block to have one.Horse power I don't think would be a problem,Banks has showed that,but unless you mounting it between the driver and passenger,I think it might handle and turn like a dump truck LOL

Marcus SC&C

07-05-2006, 05:36 AM

Cool idea if you can pull it off. B body suspension parts and uni body chassis aren`t what you`d call beefy by any stretch though. In fact if you lay the front arms on the floor you`d be hard pressed to tell them from Pinto parts. If it were me I`d skip the whole B chassis,gut the bottom of the car and set it on a new one. It wouldn`t have to be terribly complicated,maybe just a 2wd PU frame cut at the firewall and a set of Morrison,Alston or S&W rails. It depends on how carried away you wanna get.
Lots of engine setback would be a must. Done *correctly* you should still be able to get better than stock handling out of it. The new VW Phaeton W12 weighs 5,400 lbs. (!) and it still handles decent. Mark SC&C

MrQuick

07-05-2006, 09:15 AM

good stuff marcus....design away! If he could lighted the rest of the car up , he could possibly get it close.

go-fish

07-05-2006, 02:12 PM

E-body and B-body K-frames are the exact same piece but,try giving Bill Reilly at Reilly Motor Sports a call next week when he gets back from Chryslers at Carlisle. He is the genius behind Alter-K-tion, the tubular front suspension system that is used in Poison Dart, Matt DeLaney's Triple Black AAR/Hemi 'Cuda, and my 'Cuda. The system also makes provisions to stuff a Viper engine into old Mopars. My engine sits lower than stock and with Alter-K-tion and shaves 71 lbs. off the front. Get yourself some fiberglass fenders/bumper/doors/hood, aluminum calipers/radiator, and you're almost there brotha, well, closer. By the way, how are you going to stop when diesel engines don't produce vacuum for squat? Hmmm ... How about Hydrotechs hydraulicly assisted brake booster that outperforms ANY vacuum assisted brake booster. It runs off your P/S pump. Have you thought about the Jeep Liberty's 160 very upgadable HP, 295 ft/lbs torque 2.8 liter with the NSG SIX speed dropped into a 64 Dart? https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

MrQuick

07-05-2006, 11:16 PM

By the way, how are you going to stop when diesel engines don't produce vacuum for squat? Hmmm ... How about Hydrotechs hydraulicly assisted brake booster that outperforms ANY vacuum assisted brake booster. It runs off your P/S pump. Hydro- boost!?! Why didn't I think of that? Brilliant. You got some good ideas there. I think this could really happen.

go-fish

07-06-2006, 04:04 PM

Hey, I wanna man up and apologize for rippin on Mr. Quick about the Cummings thing. I was talkhing about a 15 ton in the shop today and called it an Inter-trash-ional. It made me think of all the stupid stuff us mechanics say. I get my hands dirty so I am a mechanic =) (BTW, I am a 5 yr CAT " tech" and work on Detroit and Cummmins.) I have been telling the guys at the shop about this, if this thing gets built it will be alot of peoples new favorite. I know at least six guys and one young woman who are very, very serious about diesel performance. I, myself dabbled with electronic modules on my '01 Powerjoke. I sold it and figured it's not for me. However, it is probably the fastest growing motorsport. BTW, www.teamdiesel.com (http://www.teamdiesel.com) says they stock aluminum Detroit blocks. They are around the same size as a 426 Hemi. There are Allison trannies that are readily available for these. They aren't Tremec's by any means, that's why I suggest the 2.8L early A-body Dart with the six speed. Get it on the bottle, do some turbo upgrades, exhaust work, and remap the computer. I would think it would be alot better for PT, whereas the medium duty pickup engines would better suit a drag car. Would you want a car with most powerful engine in the world in it or a car with the most balanced combo? Confuscious say " Balance is the key to the universe."

edog1

07-06-2006, 06:28 PM

Im overwhelmed with the amount of responses this thread has received. Great information and opinions. I think If I did take this project on I would have a great resource of resolving any technical issues I have.
I started of with the idea of installing a cummins engine in a Charger but now Im almost to the point of building a full chassis around a cummins and dropping a Charger body on it.

go-fish

07-07-2006, 03:11 AM

The Teamdiesel site I refered to above says the can build complete car and pickup racecars for customers. If they can do it, ... You know, you should potentially be able to. They would be a good source of info for springs n things. The tube frame chassis would be far superior than any modified stok chassis, rigid, safe, and can support different combos and variations. Build it or someone else will.

Fuelie Fan

07-21-2006, 06:11 PM

JMarsa

07-23-2006, 05:20 PM

There's a whole list here:

http://boatdiesel.com/BDR/Engines/Engines.cfm?TZ=-4&SC=1024:768:32

Here's a few I know off hand:

Perkins M92B 4.4L www.perkins-sabre.com (http://www.perkins-sabre.com)
MerCruiser 2.8L, 4.2L www.cmdmarine.com (http://www.cmdmarine.com)

--JMarsa