Springs or Air Bags

[oddball383]

I like the look of stance you can with air bags when there is no air in the system, but I like the way my car handles with the springs. Can I get the same ride with air and will they take hard cornering like the springs?

[Lowend]

In a word - No

[formula]

Depends on who you ask and how far you want to go. It's possible to design a traditional suspension that will outperform the capabilities of most air suspensions, but there are some formidable airspring setups these days that will (arguably) be more comfortable for street use and still generate decent performance on the track. Do some research, especially on ridetech.com and lateral-dynamics.com. Those are pretty much the two leading companies in either camp.

a word of warning: Around here, there's not much love lost on air suspension, so don't expect much of a response in that direction. I would encourage you to do your research, try and get the chance to try both setups, and make a decision for yourself.

[Tony@AirRideTech]

yes, you can have your cake and eat it too........this is exactly why we have been attending autocrosses and open track events to prove just that. Now dont get me wrong here, you cant just take any set of airsprings, cram them under you car and take off expecting all to be well. That would essentially be the same as going to a wrecking yard, and walking up to a pile of coil springs,grabbing a pair, throwing them is and expecting the car to handle and ride.

[novanutcase]

I'm going to reserve my opinion on air suspensions in respect to Tony at Airide and Mark at Lateral Dynamics. I will say that I did some pretty extensive research(Actually driving cars with both air and spring setups) an I will say that my choice is to go with the spring setup. Yes, air affords you the convenience of lowering and raising your car and if your not going to drive the car very hard air should be fine. I, on the other hand will be driving it hard, on occasion(for any johnny laws that are reading this!)and prefer the sping setup for my application. Besides, I don't like having an air tank in my trunk.

[TonyL]

Im the opposite. the only thing keeping airride stuff off of my 'vair is the cost. My car is a street car first, not a hard core race car. This is where the air ride setup can really shine. Awesome stance and as good or equal performance to a point.

Hey Tony, have you guys ever done a corvair yet? need a test car? ;)

[bret]

NO you can't get the same performance from an air spring as you can from a traditional spring...it's actually much better. Think of an airspring as a widely [but not infinitely] adjustable progressive spring that is tunable by pushing a button instead of changing components. This is a "blue sky" generalization, but think of the real world tuning possibilities.
Let's cut to the chase. Find a vehicle that has a properly designed, installed and tuned air suspension. Ask the owner for a ride. Make your decision from there. If you can't find an opportunity to your liking, come to Jasper, Indiana and I'll give you a ride in one of our 15 air suspension vehicles [or all of them, if you like]. If you are not seriously impressed I will reimburse you for your flight.
This may sound like a far fetched idea but we are talking about a significant investment in your hotrod here. The additional investment of another $500 or so to fly out here would represent about 10% of your total suspension package. [For those who may read this post years down the road, I reserve the right to change my mind after October 1 2006.]
To bring this scenario to as many people as possible we [Air Ride Technologies] have implemented a Street Challenge Autocross at some of the Goodguys events this year. The first one was held this past weekend in Nashville, Tn. There will be another in Kansas City on Labor Day weekend and in Dallas at the end of September. We'll have the details on our website shortly. Come out and run your car [air suspension or not] through the course and maybe take a ride in one of ours. At best you'll be able to make your choice with confidence. At worst...it is still a good time, and you'll have something to talk about on the forums!
the point of all this is that there is a serious difference in air suspensions. Don't let an experience with a generic air suspension on a vehicle that drags the ground convince you that air has no performance merit. That would be like saying that all big block Chevys are slow after driving a farm truck with a 454.
Oddball383...Good luck with your research...you're on the right track!

[Tony@AirRideTech]

Tony,
We have not specificaly done a corvair here at the shop but I dont see any major issues with doing one. Drop me a line directly at my desk at 812-481-4704 and we will hash it out....

[trackrat79]

If I am understanding how air bag systems work the spring rate progesion you speak of goes the wrong way for performance tuning. I need the spring rate to go up as the ride hight goes down, not the other way around. I also may want to change the spring rate but keep the same static ride hight. Can those two things be done with air bags. I am not into droping my truck on the frame when it's parked but the idea of being able to run a few laps and make an adjustment on the fly is enticing to say the least.

[bret]

A double convoluted airspring which is found on most front end applications is very progressive, meaning that the farther you compress it the stiffer the spring rate gets. Sleeve type airpsrings are typically much more linear, but by customizing the shape of the piston that the rubber rolls over as it compresses it can be made progressive or even regressive if desired. The current 7000 and 9000 series ShockWaves [which are usually found on rear applications] use a straight piston and offer a linear spring rate. Since we can now crimp our own ShockWave rubber in house, I will be playing with different shape pistons this summer to induce different spring rate progressions.

[USAZR1]

Are you planning to be at the Texas Goodguys event,Bret? If so,maybe you can give me some pointers on sorting out my Shockwaves. Looking forward to meeting you and talking to Tony again.

[novanutcase]

Tony and Bret,

With all due respect, I have to chime in and say that after reading your answers the impression I got was that your systems are still not quite there yet. Yes, I have heard the adjustability arguments that you and others have posted but the truth is in the doing and it sounds like you haven't quite hit the nail on the head yet. I'm sure at some time in the near future your testing will yield comparable performance but I must say that the rides I took in cars with airbags were fine for just cruising around but when I really pushed the car through the curves they seemed.....hmmmmm...trying to think of the word......sluggish! Especially when I tried to run them through a cone slalom on another occasion. I know that this is your livelyhood and I am certainly not trying to bash your product. I'm only giving my .02 as to the experience I had with them.

[TonyL]

novanutcase The car you rode in was setup by airridetech? at one of those open events they put on? Or just some guy who put airbags on his hot rod? The input i've heard is the opposite. that cars that are set up for bags properly are almost better. G/28 did just as good as the track setup it had if I remember correctly.

[Lowend]

I don't want to take anything away from air-ride specialities, they really have taken the technology a long way...
But I don't see air-bags ever being used on serious race cars. They just don't have the consistancy or tunability you can get from a traditional coil spring / adjustable shock setup.
To this day I have never seen anyone running a airbag setup (competitively) at a SCCA Pro-Solo or Regional Tour event; and that is where real race suspensions go to be proven.
Now if you are comparing air-ride to a set of QA1 coilovers (barf) than they probably are similar, but this is not what any serious racer considers an acceptable setup.
Most guys who really want to go fast use these
http://www.penskeshocks.com/adjustab.htm
But be ready to drop $4K-$6K just for the shock/spring setup

[novanutcase]

Tony L!

See Lowend comment..........As I said before, the rides I drove that had air were cars with Airides product. Please dont misconstrue my statement as being derogatory towards Airides product. I think that it is great for the applications that I mentioned. My preference is for a traditional spring and coil suspension, which, as lowend said is used by practically every racing application there is. Their must be SOME reason for that, right? Perhaps yours and mines description of high performance driving is different and for that reason you are considering Airide as adequate for your application whereas I do not. In any case, let me say it again. I DO NOT THINK THAT AIRIDE OR ANY OTHER AIR TYPE SUSPENSION DOESN'T WORK! I feel that for MY application it doesn't and prefer the coil and spring! For others, I'm sure Airide has the qualities they are looking for and for this reason they get them. In fact, Tony? Bret? Does the free flight offer still stand? I think I may take you up on it! Send me a ticket. If you convince me that your system is superior to the traditional coil and spring then I will reimburse you for the flight and buy your system. Fair enough?:poke:

Oh......by the way.....can you guys at least provide the cold beers?!???!!

[ProStreet R/T]

Now I don't have a dog in this fight either way, but it seems to me like you're not giving things a fair shake for both sides.

To compare something like a shockwave to penske or moton coilovers is absolutely asinine. But in that regard you're not talking about just a spring type change.

Compare a shockwave to a QA1 and it's much closer to a fair fight in terms of technology. And even at that they are both adequate for 95% of the people who build these cars. Even for track days, I would be surprised if either setup showed a big advantage. Reason I say that is most of these cars aren't that dialed in where it's going to make a big difference.

In all honesty no bags will never replace coilovers in a racing arena. For the sheer fact that you can't alter spring rate independant of ride height. I can go from a 700# spring to an 1100# on my viper and it won't change the ride height a bit. Good luck trying that with an air setup.


But truthfully, how many of us are really going to take these cars out and bust off :49's around willow? And if you are, then chances are being bagged up on 19/20's isn't even in your vocabulary.

For a comfortable street car that will see the occassional track day, but spends most of the time cruising I don't see a downside. Plus you can roll into the local cruise night and stuff those monster wheels half way up into the fender.


besides, who says you can't run airbags with a set of quad adjustable Moton shocks :screwy:

[Lowend]

But truthfully, how many of us are really going to take these cars out and bust off :49's around willow?
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[novanutcase]

:bsjerk:

[formula]

:bsjerk:

just curious, which of their cars did you ride in?

[Kenova]

Tony or Bret, here's a question or two about air spring rates. Or more precisely, am I thinking straight.
More air = higher spring rate
Compressing spring = increase in spring rate.
Now if I re-mount the air spring so it is taller at ride height and put enough air in it to maintain the original ride height, I'm thinking that the spring will have more air in it at approximately the same pressure. Is the spring rate going to be higher? Can this be used to tune the springs providing the shock doesn't run out of travel?
I was also wondering if the rear Shockwaves from a heavy car could be used on the front of a lighter car, or do you have a sleeve type of spring for use on the front?
Ken

[malibu9in]

If you ever plan on working on your car in the future after you install air ride be in for a rude awakening. Ive had mine for 3 years then I decided to do the ls1 swap. The moment the car loses air your fcuked. Car goes to the floor it wont roll cause the tires are stuck in the fenderwells. You cant jack the car up in the rear cause the rear just goes up and up and up. Car wont steer. Had to change all 4 tire to 14 in wheels. STILL wont steer. Had to remove the front end just to move the car. Car didnt have air leaks but all that jacking up and down just made it unbearable to work on. Mabye im a idiot. My rant.

[USAZR1]

If you ever plan on working on your car in the future after you install air ride be in for a rude awakening. Ive had mine for 3 years then I decided to do the ls1 swap. The moment the car loses air your fcuked. Car goes to the floor it wont roll cause the tires are stuck in the fenderwells. You cant jack the car up in the rear cause the rear just goes up and up and up. Car wont steer. Had to change all 4 tire to 14 in wheels. STILL wont steer. Had to remove the front end just to move the car. Car didnt have air leaks but all that jacking up and down just made it unbearable to work on. Mabye im a idiot. My rant.

Aw,heck,,try losing air pressure at 75mph on the interstate.
Talk about an exciting smokeshow! :lmao:

Glad to see you back online,Jason.

[malibu9in]

Aw,heck,,try losing air pressure at 75mph on the interstate.
Talk about an exciting smokeshow! :lmao:

Glad to see you back online,Jason.

That sucks!! blow a line?

[Tony@AirRideTech]

Those are the exact reasons we stress that the car sit on the bumpstops and still be able to roll when completely deflated. That way you can still move the vehicle under its own power. Now, while we do not anticipate any kind of failure you know how it goes... $*%@ does happen and in reality, the above statement should be planned out for vehicles that are running static suspension as well because I have personally seen more crackd leafs, boken coils, and broken coil over mounts and when those cars go all the way down and when most of those cars are down they are sitting on the tires and are immobile. Remember guys.... safety is paramount! My wife and kids drive on these same roads.
When you are plumbing your system you need to treat airlines with the same respect that you would a fuel line or an electrical line. You need to use grommets when you are plumbing through metal, use clips to fasten it down, keep it away from heat like your exhaust. If you have to run close to anything hot, make sure you use heat sleeve.Make sure it is securely fastened and can not rub or chaf on anything. If you are piecing together your own system, you need to make sure that you use all D.O.T. equipment....not some budget cheap line that you picked up from the local industrial supply store. D.O.T approved lines and fittings is the same stuff that is running up and down the road on 90% of the tractor trailers we see on our roads. As long as it is installed properly you should never have any problems with it and it will be just as reliable as any other means of suspension. If it wasnt, you would not see as many of the OE's and big truck and trailer manufacturers using it. :)

[formula]

Those are the exact reasons we stress that the car sit on the bumpstops and still be able to roll when completely deflated. That way you can still move the vehicle under its own power.

Just curious, what's the best way to correct this if you find out you're not able to still roll when fully deflated?

[Tony@AirRideTech]

Change or modify the bumpstops. With the plethora of tire and wheel combinations being used these days, there is no way that we can accomodate that perfect sixe for everybody. Now if your OD is within reason, the factory bumpstops or supplied bumpstops are more than adequate. Usually the problem with wheel and tire fitment is more of an bad offset/ fitment problem and less of an O.D. issue.

[USAZR1]

Those are the exact reasons we stress that the car sit on the bumpstops and still be able to roll when completely deflated. That way you can still move the vehicle under its own power. Now, while we do not anticipate any kind of failure you know how it goes... $*%@ does happen and in reality, the above statement should be planned out for vehicles that are running static suspension as well because I have personally seen more crackd leafs, boken coils, and broken coil over mounts and when those cars go all the way down and when most of those cars are down they are sitting on the tires and are immobile. Remember guys.... safety is paramount! My wife and kids drive on these same roads.
When you are plumbing your system you need to treat airlines with the same respect that you would a fuel line or an electrical line. You need to use grommets when you are plumbing through metal, use clips to fasten it down, keep it away from heat like your exhaust. If you have to run close to anything hot, make sure you use heat sleeve.Make sure it is securely fastened and can not rub or chaf on anything. If you are piecing together your own system, you need to make sure that you use all D.O.T. equipment....not some budget cheap line that you picked up from the local industrial supply store. D.O.T approved lines and fittings is the same stuff that is running up and down the road on 90% of the tractor trailers we see on our roads. As long as it is installed properly you should never have any problems with it and it will be just as reliable as any other means of suspension. If it wasnt, you would not see as many of the OE's and big truck and trailer manufacturers using it. :)

Some rank amateur didn't install the system,Tony. Steve Cook's shop in OKC did it and used Air Ride components,exclusively. Even the best are only human and you did recommend them to me.
The only other problems I've had was the crap digital ride controller and the damping adjustment knob on the right rear Shockwave. You guys took care of the former and I'm hoping you will do the same with the latter problem.

[USAZR1]

Change or modify the bumpstops. With the plethora of tire and wheel combinations being used these days, there is no way that we can accomodate that perfect sixe for everybody. Now if your OD is within reason, the factory bumpstops or supplied bumpstops are more than adequate. Usually the problem with wheel and tire fitment is more of an bad offset/ fitment problem and less of an O.D. issue.

Yep,I just need another 1/2" of backspacing on my front 17x9's. Heck,what's another $250 after spending almost $5K on the air ride. :)

[ScotI]

I have Air-Ride products on my vehicle/s & from hanging around @ my friends shop, I've been exposed to both the problems described: 1) cars around the shop w/no power to the compressors; 2) loss of air @ hwy. speed.

For the first issue, @ my buddies shop they simply keep a small length of line & some schrader valves handy to be able to air the system up when required. No solenoids or power required for that. Of course, it helps if the system is designed to be able to access the bag/shock for maintenance or cases of emergency.

This brings me to the second item.... my friends took a 'just completed' truck out for a 4hr. road trip to a nationally known show. On the way there, they experienced a loss of air on one of the front bags. It seems that in the assembly thrash, the air-lines were routed to minimize heat exposure from the exhaust..... well, all but one line that was somehow overlooked. The critical thing was the system was designed to be able to roll w/o interference when 'aired-out' w/a re-designed bump-stop. The truck was safely steered off the highway & they were also able to drive along far enough to find a local garage that had a lift which made it easier to determine the cause of the air loss.

Airbags might not be for everyone. But if you are considering an air suspension, there are solutions to every problem. A well executed installation w/some consideration for 'post-installation maintenance' & safety* can eliminate headaches.

*disclaimer*: This is a general statement & in no way a negative remark on Steve Cooks shops capabilities.

[ProStreet R/T]

Little inquiry for everyone here in regards to the airlines. If it's such an issue/concern that they will melt, break, leak, anything, why not run it all in hard lines with small braided flex sections where needed (if any).

It works for brakes, why wouldn't it work here? Yeah you would have to clamp everything to keep it from making noise everytime you hit a switch but it's all the same. Seems to me it would be easy enough to run it all with 3/8-1/2" stainless or aluminum hard lines. Then either use crush fittings or a flare. Would take a little longer to run initially but pending any major disaster it would never leak.


Am I onto something or does everyone think i'm over-engineering it :dunno:



Oh yeah, and just put a couple schrader valves inline and it solves all those no-pump issues.

[Tony@AirRideTech]

Clint....... you've got that right! On my daily driver I ran the airline out of the coil spring pocket and down the framerail within about 2-3" of the exhaust manifold...... with no heat sleeve! hey at least she made it about 3 years before the line let go. As close as I moronically put it to the manifold I cant believe it did not go sooner. I just cut the bad portion out and threw a splice in it and was down the road again. Did I mention that I have heat sleeve on it now :) Steve and those guys do build some super nice stuff and they are good people to deal with. That paragraph above was not aimed at anyone.... just general tech info. I would let them build me a car or install any air ride system on anything I own. Are you going to bring it over to the autocross at Dallas?

Prostreet,
Hardlining is not uncommon and a lot of guys do it. The usual determining factor is the cost of the stainless tubing, the time it takes to do it, and that the standard D.O.T. tubing and PTC fittings are really that easy to work with and they do work that well.

[novanutcase]

Wasn't one of there cars. I have several friends out here in So Cal that have the airride systems and I rode and drove every one of their cars. At one point I was seriously considering Airrides system since it seemed that this would be the all inclusive answer to what I wanted to do with the car being racing and cruising it. Alas, I have come to learn that you can't have both(well, not to the extent that I was looking for at least!). I wanted to be able to have a finely tuned suspension to run at Willow Springs and still be able to go to the local Bob's Big Boy Dog and Pony show and dump my car in the weeds. Unfortunately, after driving my buddies Chevelle along with at least 6 other cars('72 Nova, '69 Nova, '71 Malibu, etc.) I noticed that they weren't as crisp as I would like in the corners. Again, let me reiterate so there are no misunderstandings. THESE ARE MY AMATEUR OBSERVATIONS ONLY! I am in no way qualified to say what is better than the other apart from driver feel and what little I have learned about suspensions. On a side note I will say that there was one rear suspension that actually surprised me as to how well it worked for what it was. I drove my friends '32 roadster that had a HRTH truck arm and it actually drove pretty well. Fairly crisp although not as responsive when you hit bumps in the turn but overall not bad for the price! He had a Heidt's front end which I don't really care for but , again, this is just my preference as I would have gone full C-5. I have been trying to put together an IRS for my project but since noone at this time is putting any time or money into making it happen then I guess I will have to talk to the FORD boys(OH MY GOD! THERE IS THAT FOUR LETTER WORD!:eek:)

[USAZR1]

Clint....... you've got that right! On my daily driver I ran the airline out of the coil spring pocket and down the framerail within about 2-3" of the exhaust manifold...... with no heat sleeve! hey at least she made it about 3 years before the line let go. As close as I moronically put it to the manifold I cant believe it did not go sooner. I just cut the bad portion out and threw a splice in it and was down the road again. Did I mention that I have heat sleeve on it now :) Steve and those guys do build some super nice stuff and they are good people to deal with. That paragraph above was not aimed at anyone.... just general tech info. I would let them build me a car or install any air ride system on anything I own. Are you going to bring it over to the autocross at Dallas?

Prostreet,
Hardlining is not uncommon and a lot of guys do it. The usual determining factor is the cost of the stainless tubing, the time it takes to do it, and that the standard D.O.T. tubing and PTC fittings are really that easy to work with and they do work that well.
The air line for my right front Shockwave got pinched in the rear. The entire line was well clear of everything and any pinchpoints,,except for about a 3" section. Guess where it failed?:doh: Other than a lot of smoke,it barely scuffed the tire. Kumhos are tough. The failure happened right by an eighteen wheeler repair shop so a short splice later and we were back on the road to Chevellabration in Nashville.
Steve and Rodney did their yellow 69 Camaro in stainless hardlines but I couldn't afford it for my car at the time. Maybe later.
I'm only 100 miles from Texas Motor Speedway and always attend the Goodguys event. If all goes well,I'll definitely have my Elky in the Autocross. Am hoping you guys at ART can help me with some suspension set-up tips.

[Tony@AirRideTech]

Undoubtedly we can get you tuned in.....with just a few pressure and shock valving changes, I was able to tune the red camaro down another 1.5 seconds at the atlanta autocross with David Gravely from year one driving it. I would watch him go through the corners and make small adjustments to suit his driving style. We will be bringing a couple of our cars down there to trash on... I only wish I could get my 61 together by then and have it down there but due to my personal laziness and shallow pockets....... it aint gonna happen :)

[bigkaboose]

I am new I was recently looking for air-ride suspensions for my 63 nova and I am seeing setups now that run leaf spring and air-suspension. Capable of both laying frame and pulling .82Gs.

http://superchevy.com/tech/04a1sc_novarear/

[USAZR1]

Undoubtedly we can get you tuned in.....with just a few pressure and shock valving changes, I was able to tune the red camaro down another 1.5 seconds at the atlanta autocross with David Gravely from year one driving it. I would watch him go through the corners and make small adjustments to suit his driving style. We will be bringing a couple of our cars down there to trash on... I only wish I could get my 61 together by then and have it down there but due to my personal laziness and shallow pockets....... it aint gonna happen :)

You need to check out the protouring 61 at Steve Cook's,,with Morrison frame and twin turbo 572/4L80 combo.