DSE complet subframe

[next69]

I read a thread a few weeks ago that said DSE was planning on unveiling their complete subframe at the Goodguys show in Columbus, has their been any updates? This is only two weeks away just curious if there were any spy shots I can't wait to see it and I am not sure if I will make it down this year.

[zbugger]

Not sure if there are any spy shots as it was apparently on Stacy's car on the Power Tour, but the unveiling is still scheduled as Goodguys Columbus. I think the anticipation is killing people. Be patient.

[next69]

I can't beleive it, everyone has been waiting for this thing to debut for so many years and finally the car is on the street, power tour no less and no one has a picture? My hat is off to Kyle and stacy for keeping such a big cat in the bag.

[Steve1968LS2]

I can't beleive it, everyone has been waiting for this thing to debut for so many years and finally the car is on the street, power tour no less and no one has a picture? My hat is off to Kyle and stacy for keeping such a big cat in the bag.

It's a secret.. they wouldn't even send me a pic for the new products section of the magazine.. lol

I heard Stacy has a trained attack badger under the hood incase anyone snoops ;)

[samholder]

I toured the DSE facility two weeks ago and saw it on Stacey's car though I did not have a lot of time to look at it in detail. I kept pressuring them for info on it and all they would say is that they are close. It will consist of only DSE suspension products so replacement parts will only be available from DSE. That and the potential price are the only drawbacks to me. I have no problem with their suspension products but hate to be limited to one supplier for critical parts. They would not give me a price range but said it would be on the high end of the subframe market due to the quality.

[wrcamaro]

Just saw this on DSE's website
http://www.detroitspeed.com/Product%20Pages/subframe.htm

Hydroformed frame rails? Whoa.

[TitoJones]

:headbang:

Kudos to Kyle and Stacy! That frame is amazing.

Tyler

[Steve68]

Wow!

[cykotic]

Is that frame superior to one that utilizes c5 parts? It looks very much like a modified stock frame. I'm seriously trying to decide on which is better. That one or one from like 21st century.

[67bird]

Does anyone know if it will accomodate a Pontiac engine? I see that it says SBC, BBC, and LSX, but it looks as if they are using standard frame perches.

[zbugger]

Holy Crap.....

[68Formula]

Does anyone know if it will accomodate a Pontiac engine? I see that it says SBC, BBC, and LSX, but it looks as if they are using standard frame perches.

Send an email and ask them. I guess they forgot about the Birds.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Anyone care to guess the price?

[baz67]

Is that frame superior to one that utilizes c5 parts? It looks very much like a modified stock frame. I'm seriously trying to decide on which is better. That one or one from like 21st century.

Just because the parts say Corvette does not mean they are better. It is the geometry. Knowing how DSE designs and engineers their products, I would say yes the DSE sub is better.

[Steve68]

5800 with brakes!!

[aonghus]

I spy C5/C6 spindles, Stacey and Kyle told me at Good Guys Del Mar that they were involved with the design of those spindles when they were with the general. At least if you bust a ball joint you can buy from the parts department :naughty:

[TitoJones]

I spy C5/C6 spindles, Stacey and Kyle told me at Good Guys Del Mar that they were involved with the design of those spindles when they were with the general. At least if you bust a ball joint you can buy from the parts department :naughty:

Not really! Last time I checked the upper ball joint is not serviceable. You had to replace the entire upright if it went bad. The lower ball joint taper can also get reamed out from multiple installations and removals due to the ultra soft aluminum - leading to - You guessed it - Replacement. This is just one of the reasons we did screw in steel lower ball joint inserts on our AFX spindle. I also hope that spindle is a C6 upright, as I spoke with an engineer that told me about 6 piston calipers severely flexing the C5 style brake bracket under heavy braking at the 'Ring. They changed it for the C6 Z06. We did too on the AFX spindle.

Regardless of the above mentioned, that frame is stunning. The hydroformed rail idea was pure genius. Great engineering.

Tyler

[EFI69Cam]

Not really! Last time I checked the upper ball joint is not serviceable. You had to replace the entire upright if it went bad. The lower ball joint taper can also get reamed out from multiple installations and removals due to the ultra soft aluminum - leading to - You guessed it - Replacement. This is just one of the reasons we did screw in steel lower ball joint inserts on our AFX spindle. I also hope that spindle is not a C5 upright, as one engineer I spoke with told me a story about 6 piston calipers ripping off a brake bracket under heavy braking at the 'Ring. They changed it for the C6 Z06. We did too on the AFX spindle.

Regardless of the above mentioned, that frame is stunning. The hydroformed rail idea was pure genius. Great engineering.

Tyler

Is the steel screw in insert a design change since the first batch? Seems my set has aluminum inserts.

[datsbad]

$5800 WITH BRAKES , I WISH !

It is around $6400 plus brakes .

[Mean 69]

Last time I checked the upper ball joint is not serviceable. You had to replace the entire upright if it went bad. The lower ball joint taper can also get reamed out from multiple installations and removals due to the ultra soft aluminum - leading to - You guessed it - Replacement.

This is my understanding too, we were not able to get individual ball joints for either side when we were looking at using this as an option. The C5/6 ball joints have a funky taper too, not the typical 7 degree or 10 degree, but that's really not of censequence.

M

[FJB2069]

I would "assume" that the hydro-formed yada-yada is stronger then Due or 21st, but at first glance it looks stock in apperance. It doesn't have the racing/aftermarket/performance look to it.

I have been waiting for months to see this thing and all the while was wondering what I am expecting to see, it is just a subframe!

I don't know, now that I see it I have mixed feelings. I hope I can get some specific info on how this is better as far as fitment, handling, strength then what is already out there especially if it cost more.

[Steve1968LS2]

Just because the parts say Corvette does not mean they are better. It is the geometry. Knowing how DSE designs and engineers their products, I would say yes the DSE sub is better.

lol.. wow.. that defines the term "assumption".

[Steve1968LS2]

This is my understanding too, we were not able to get individual ball joints for either side when we were looking at using this as an option. The C5/6 ball joints have a funky taper too, not the typical 7 degree or 10 degree, but that's really not of censequence.

M

This is true.. you can't replace just the ball-joint on a C5 vette.. you have to buy the whole control arm. Luckily they aren't crazy expensive.

Nice looking frame. The hydroformed side rails are cool as hell. I would think they would be stronger, then again how many frames are bending due to stress?

I wonder how oil pan clearance is.. would you have to notch a pan? Could you use a C6 pan or do you need the LS1 f-body pan.

So many questions.. Guess I should hit them up for a press release... agian.. :)

[FJB2069]

lol.. wow.. that defines the term "assumption".

Steve,

PLease clarify your remark.

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve,

PLease clarify your remark.

This is what was said:


Just because the parts say Corvette does not mean they are better. It is the geometry. Knowing how DSE designs and engineers their products, I would say yes the DSE sub is better.

Brian is stating that it's a fact that the DSE frame is better.. based on what? One picture on the internet? He is assuming that, because the part is from DSE that it's somehow inherently better than anything else on the market.

He states that DSE designs and engineers their products and is implying that other frame makers do not. He has zero data on the geometry of this system and how it stacks up to any other frame on the market yet he says "yes the DSE sub is better".. why?

We all know that DSE puts a LOT of efforts into thier parts, but to call it the "best" at this early stage seems pretty much an assumption. Hence my comment.

It does look like a VERY promising system from the limited info I have seen on it. It's from DSE, so I know the quality is very very good. However, We don't have any data on the weight, geometry or specs of the system. It may very well turn out to be the "best", but I think it's wee bit early to be dismissing all the other subframe systems and declaring the DSE frame "the winner".

[FJB2069]

Totally agree!


I would have thought that after so much hype they could have put some more detailed spec. info on their site. May have saved they from some phone calls come monday.

[TitoJones]

Is the steel screw in insert a design change since the first batch? Seems my set has aluminum inserts.

All upper inserts are 7075 alum with a press fit, and all lowers are steel, and screw in. Been that way since SN 000001. We put a plating on the lowers, and they did look like aluminum after install.



We all know that DSE puts a LOT of efforts into thier parts, but to call it the "best" at this early stage seems pretty much an assumption.

I agree. With just a comparision on upper control arms for a factory frame, we tested a set of Global West arns, Speedtech arms, and Detroit Speed arms to see which one was "Best."

It wasn't DSE that round. It was Global West. The look of the DSE arm is pretty, but GW has more caster built into them.

Let's wait for the info before we declare this the end-all-be-all of the front clips.

Tyler

[Steve1968LS2]

Totally agree!

I would have thought that after so much hype they could have put some more detailed spec. info on their site. May have saved they from some phone calls come monday.

I am sure they will.. give them some time. I know they have been testing the sub on Stacy's blue '69.. Good parts take time to come to market.

[baz67]

lol.. wow.. that defines the term "assumption".

ass-u-me or educated observation? You be the judge.:wedgie:

[aonghus]

Not really! Last time I checked the upper ball joint is not serviceable. You had to replace the entire upright if it went bad. The lower ball joint taper can also get reamed out from multiple installations and removals due to the ultra soft aluminum - leading to - You guessed it - Replacement. This is just one of the reasons we did screw in steel lower ball joint inserts on our AFX spindle. I also hope that spindle is not a C5 upright, as one engineer I spoke with told me a story about 6 piston calipers ripping off a brake bracket under heavy braking at the 'Ring. They changed it for the C6 Z06. We did too on the AFX spindle.

Regardless of the above mentioned, that frame is stunning. The hydroformed rail idea was pure genius. Great engineering.

Tyler


I knew I like buying stuff from you for a reason Tyler.

:twothumbs

[Damn True]

All upper inserts are 7075 alum with a press fit, and all lowers are steel, and screw in. Been that way since SN 000001. We put a plating on the lowers, and they did look like aluminum after install.



I agree. With just a comparision on upper control arms for a factory frame, we tested a set of Global West arns, Speedtech arms, and Detroit Speed arms to see which one was "Best."

It wasn't DSE that round. It was Global West. The look of the DSE arm is pretty, but GW has more caster built into them.

Let's wait for the info before we declare this the end-all-be-all of the front clips.

Tyler

How did the speed-tech arms fare?

Would the SC&C adjustable arms offer a range of adjustment that encompases that of the rest of the field?

Perhaps these questions would be better answered in another thread?

[ProdigyCustoms]

Looks Steve has a few more details and facts. It does look cool.

http://musclerides.com/Pages/55-57_3.php

[Larry Callahan]

Totally agree!


I would have thought that after so much hype they could have put some more detailed spec. info on their site. May have saved they from some phone calls come monday.

Check out our home page for a little more detail and more pics. I'm sure after today's unveiling at the Goodguys show there will be more info soon.

https://www.pro-touring.com/

[Steve68]

Jason, It was only a guess, I was only 4K off, sheesh,

[datsbad]

Jason, It was only a guess, I was only 4K off, sheesh,


That would have been nice huh? Looks like i was wrong also . I think it is $6700

[Steve1968LS2]

ass-u-me or educated observation? You be the judge.:wedgie:

Observation of what? A one-angle low-res shot?? lol

Don't make me come over there! :enguard:

[Steve1968LS2]

Looks Steve has a few more details and facts. It does look cool.

http://musclerides.com/Pages/55-57_3.php

Very good! More data is always a welcome thing.. :)

[baz67]

Observation of what? A one-angle low-res shot?? lol

Don't make me come over there! :enguard:

I dare you. Do you really think you can handle this nice clean mountain air? :bicycle: BTW, was it assumed that all I know of it was from a low res shot?

[Steve1968LS2]

I dare you. Do you really think you can handle this nice clean mountain air? :bicycle: BTW, was it assumed that all I know of it was from a low res shot?

No, Im old and the altitude would make me dizzy.. damn you!

I bet my assumption was better than yours :thankyou:

[baz67]

No, Im old and the altitude would make me dizzy.. damn you!

I bet my assumption was better than yours :thankyou:

Steve, this is too easy... Can you explain why you are dizzy at almost sea level then?

Can I assume your assumption(source) is better then mine? Or is the assuming the assumption being presumtious(sp)?:screwy:

[morbid creations]

Its getting very hard to choose the best subframe with so many options...

[zbugger]

You know, after looking at it again, it's too pretty to put under a car.....

[murtah]

A few close ups.

[murtah]

I don't know where the preview is but you can still see the pics by clicking on the dashes. Sorry....

[Kenova]

:hmm: :idea: Between installing a DSE sub frame and a full tank of gas, the value of my Nova would easily be tripled!
Why is it that everytime a new sub frame is introduced, Wayne Due's sub looks better (price wise)? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Kyle and Stacy have done teriffic job, and I like the idea of Hydro-Formed frame rails, it's just that for my useage the DSE sub just isn't within my financial reach. :dunno: Maybe that's a good thing.
Ken

[datsbad]

:hmm: :idea: Between installing a DSE sub frame and a full tank of gas, the value of my Nova would easily be tripled!
Why is it that everytime a new sub frame is introduced, Wayne Due's sub looks better (price wise)? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Kyle and Stacy have done teriffic job, and I like the idea of Hydro-Formed frame rails, it's just that for my useage the DSE sub just isn't within my financial reach. :dunno: Maybe that's a good thing.
Ken


Is the WD sub complete , what is the pricing of it compared to this? I never really did a comparison

[murtah]

It's about a grand more than I expected. Stacy talked me out of getting a competing frame in march, when I was pricing brakes.
At the time, I was told that it would be close to 6k w/out brakes.
I suppose it is like the defense industry, if they are going to do a low volume run, then the price goes up to maintain profitability.

Kyle said they wouldn't be offering the sub on any GPs. However, he also said that doesn't mean DSE's dealers won't consider GPs.
So, how about it? Any DSE dealers think a GP on this sub would be workable in 3-4 months once the pro builders have their orders filled?

[victionone]

I would "assume" that the hydro-formed yada-yada is stronger then Due or 21st, but at first glance it looks stock in apperance. It doesn't have the racing/aftermarket/performance look to it.

I have been waiting for months to see this thing and all the while was wondering what I am expecting to see, it is just a subframe!

I don't know, now that I see it I have mixed feelings. I hope I can get some specific info on how this is better as far as fitment, handling, strength then what is already out there especially if it cost more.

I agree with everything you said. When you see an aftermarket subframe on a car, it looks beautiful. You can see the welds, etc, and know the skills and work that went into building it. The DSE frame looks like a machine just spitted it out. I think I was just expecting too much because of the hype surrounding the DSE frame. I want to see this frame in person...

The price is no suprise, since all their parts are priced higher than the competition.

Wayne Due's frame is $5900 complete with no brakes and unpainted, on their website.

[victionone]

The DSE frame's crossmembers sure do look beefy. DSE used two big crossmembers sandwiching the steering rack. Wayne's uses one main corssmember at the engine mounts, and 21st uses one main, and a smaller brace up front. Did DSE find anything less in inadequate? hhmmm....

[68Formula]

I've seen builders fully weld frames and then grind them down to smooth them (pretty much looks like the DSE frame when they're done).

Hydroforming a very dimensionally stable process. The accuracy on large parts (and small) is excellent, and when it comes to handling a millimeters change here and there can affect it dramatically. Not only that, but the wall thickness of a hydroformed part remains constant unlike stampings which will thin in areas. That and the fact that it's not spot welded together is going to make it very rigid without adding weight. I think coming out with a new subframe, this was definitely the way to distinguish yourself from the competition.

You're getting what you paid for, and then some.

[silver69camaro]

I've seen builders fully weld frames and then grind them down to smooth them (pretty much looks like the DSE frame when they're done).

Not only that, but the wall thickness of a hydroformed part remains constant unlike stampings which will thin in areas.

Not to nit-pick, but who (aftermarket wise) uses stamped frame rails? Or are you referring to stock subframes? Everybody in the industry (excluding DSE) uses HREW tubing.

Hearing of builders grinding welds down makes me shudder. Any GOOD builder knows to use Bondo to smooth those areas.:hand:

Also, this thread reminds me that you could do so much more for alot less money with the stock subframe!

[Mean 69]

Also, this thread reminds me that you could do so much more for alot less money with the stock subframe!

I'd have to concur with that statement. Though the hydroformed rails are nice in and of themselves, they still need to be welded together, which frankly is not an issue to begin with anyway. Hydroforming was developed to remove a process step from the typical production of a formed frame: welding or spot welding. It's an efficiency thing, not done to "solve" a strength issue. I'd really be interested in seeing someone that has a cracked frame, I've never seen one. And that is even considering the severe lack of weld quality that existed 35 years ago. And careful on the weight issue, a stock frame weighs less than at least one of the higher end subframes I have personally seen.

It is interesting as a competitor to see the marketing claims, and see words like "optimum" etc. If you truly understand this stuff, you throw the word optimum out the window, because it doesn't exist. Anyone care to critique some of the design details of the suspension that are shown in the picture? I'd start, but it would sound like I'm whining, but without question there are things I'd do (will do) differently.

Mark

[baz67]

Also, this thread reminds me that you could do so much more for alot less money with the stock subframe!

That is one of the best things I have heard in a long time.

Anyone wonder why it looks like a stock frame? Could it be that maybe, just maybe GM did some design research for the frame. The two things that they got wrong were the geometry and rear steer. One can be easily fixed the other can be made better for a whole lot less then 6K. I think that DSE did their homework and produce an outstanding frame, but you do not need it for a first gen to handle great. Its largest advantage is the ability to have wider tires up front.

[29od1]

Anyone care to critique some of the design details of the suspension that are shown in the picture? I'd start, but it would sound like I'm whining, but without question there are things I'd do (will do) differently.


I'd be interested in hearing a few (whining or not).

[68Formula]

I'd really be interested in seeing someone that has a cracked frame, I've never seen one. And that is even considering the severe lack of weld quality that existed 35 years ago.
Mark

There is definitely plenty that can be done with the stock subframe, no doubt.

As far as cracking, I don't think trey are saying that's an issue. An OEM chassis engineer told me years ago that make the structure stiff enough to minimize the deflection due to load, the stress is not a problem. So the engineers certainly verify crack won't occur, but they want a super stiff structure for best handling and ride.

Also, keep in mind, there are plenty of guys out there that are interested in upgrading all their systems at one time and/or may have a damaged frame (corrosion or accident). This system is a bolt it which means, you don't need fabrication skills, fabrication tools, fabrication time, and you can keep your stock system in case you want to reinstall it later.

It's argueable both ways depending on your situation. Just depends on the your goals, time, skills, tool, and money. Me, I seem to have none of those. An unfortunately I didn't make the "free ride" either. :ripped:

[cykotic]

Just because the parts say Corvette does not mean they are better. It is the geometry. Knowing how DSE designs and engineers their products, I would say yes the DSE sub is better.

I'm not saying that the name corvette means superior. I just notice that most of the aftermarket subframes are utilizing these parts. That must mean the design is good, otherwise they'd be making their own just like DSE. I'm just wonder how this frame fairs as far as the suspension benefits.

[MSchu]

I don't about everyone else, but I think DSE ABSOLUTELY has to publish the test numbers not only against the stock frame w/ their parts on it but other frames too. It looks good and all but it has to be proven before I even consider it at that price. Throw brakes on it and its up there price wise with the CARS subframe. +2 on critiquing it.

[Damn True]

I don't about everyone else, but I think DSE ABSOLUTELY has to publish the test numbers not only against the stock frame w/ their parts on it but other frames too. It looks good and all but it has to be proven before I even consider it at that price. Throw brakes on it and its up there price wise with the CARS subframe. +2 on critiquing it.

Ding, ding, ding!
WINNER, best post in this thread.

They'll need to publish the geometry numbers for public scrutiny before I'll consider it.

[rocketrod]

I don't about everyone else, but I think DSE ABSOLUTELY has to publish the test numbers not only against the stock frame w/ their parts on it but other frames too. It looks good and all but it has to be proven before I even consider it at that price. Throw brakes on it and its up there price wise with the CARS subframe. +2 on critiquing it.

I agree, but I really doubt it will never happen, but Kyle & Stacey may surprise us, and IF it does someone somewhere will point out some flaw with the testing. Heck we can't even get a comparison test on something relativley easy like comparing stopping distance on disc brake setups: stock vs. Baer vs. Wilwood vs. etc. One thing for sure if the DSE publishes test numbers and there impressive they will sell all of the subframes they can produce for quite some time....

[Damn True]

Test numbers ("g" readings, slalom times etc) would be immaterial as the rest of the car presents far too many variables to be of any use. However, the specific geometries such as camber gain, scrub radius etc would provide those who know what they are to evaluate the potential.

If I hadda guess I would assume (dangerous ground this is) that the performance potential of the DSE sub will roughly match the market position of the rest of their products. Excellent street manners, a significant improvement over stock, but not quite the best setup for hardcore (serious track use, auto-x) use. It'll be a nice unit to be sure and it will make a lot of people (unless they are serious track-whores) very happy. Just like the rest of their stuff.

[BonzoHansen]

Proprietary parts? Eeeck. Do those words bother anyone else (or did I read the description wrong)? That is a lot of $$ to bet that DSE is still in business in 10 years if I need a part. Not that I am saying anything bad about DSE, but in life, things happen.

[silver69camaro]

Proprietary parts? Eeeck. Do those words bother anyone else (or did I read the description wrong)? That is a lot of $$ to bet that DSE is still in business in 10 years if I need a part. Not that I am saying anything bad about DSE, but in life, things happen.

Any and every part can be fabricated. If they would still be in business after 10-15 years (and I bet they will), and you needed a control arm, it would probably be an obsolete design that they no longer make anyway.

[KUL FIR CHICK N]

The DSE subframe is RADICALLY DIFFERENT than the stock subframe, or any of the other subs currently available for that matter. You need to see it in person, preferrably next to a stock frame, to know what I'm talking about.

For those who are willing to pony up if the frame meets their needs, I would suggest contacting DSE directly for the straight skinny rather than making guesses and assumptions, most of which are wrong in this thread.

For those who are not willing to pony up, and are just here to spout off, your time may be better spent modifying your own subframe. That way, you can prove you are king rather than just telling everyone.

Kyle and Stacy know what they are doing. They have education and experience to prove it. I'm sure GM would love to have both of them back. Instead, they are busting their arses every day to design, develop, manufacture, and even install the best parts they can to make your old muscle car drive like your new Vette. You don't have to buy them. If you're capable of designing and building you own, and willing to do it, you're not their target market.

For that matter, all of the manufacturers in the aftermarket want to build the best product to make your ride better. Some do better than others in meeting that goal, but none are getting rich doing it. There's competition in every area, and the pricing reflects what it takes to deliver the product.

If you don't want to buy it, build it....THAT'S HOTRODDING!

-end of rant

[next69]

Hey guys, not sure if you've been keeping an eye on the DSE site but they have posted some geometry details you might be interested in, here is the link.

http://www.detroitspeed.com/Product%20Pages/subframe.htm

[TLWiltman]

Hey guys, not sure if you've been keeping an eye on the DSE site but they have posted some geometry details you might be interested in, here is the link.

http://www.detroitspeed.com/Product%20Pages/subframe.htm
Well, I don't have a first gen, nor do I have any current intention of buying their subframe. I do, however, have to respect a performance suspension manufacturer that will put that kind of info on their website. KUDOS!