View Full Version : DSE 4 link questions
EFI69Cam
02-18-2006, 07:38 AM
I'm pondering getting the DSE 4 link for my car. I have a couple concerns. I'm not sure I need $500 a pair double adjustable koni shocks. I'm not a autocrosser, I just want the car to be a nice cruiser. Are there any alternatives?
Also how do you get exhaust around the panhard bar? The panhard bar is what makes true duals out the back a pita on 3rd and 4th gens.
Also I would guess that this suspension would not need a rear sway bar?
TIA for any comments.
I don’t really see any adjustability in this system. Maybe I’m wrong but I’m not really a fan of a non adjustable 4 link as different cars need different geometry for different types of driving. In my car I would want the adjustability to move my instant center. I do see this as a 4 link with all of the binding problems being fixed so it should handle allot better then your average drag racing 4 link. You may want to look into the triangulated 4 link offered by air ride technologies, that’s a nice system for your application and you would have less of a hard time with exhaust. one thing that’s nice about a non adjustable system is there is allot less to screw up adjustability is a double edged sword
Sparky67
02-18-2006, 09:17 PM
del
EFI69Cam
02-19-2006, 06:28 AM
I don’t really see any adjustability in this system. Maybe I’m wrong but I’m not really a fan of a non adjustable 4 link as different cars need different geometry for different types of driving. In my car I would want the adjustability to move my instant center. I do see this as a 4 link with all of the binding problems being fixed so it should handle allot better then your average drag racing 4 link. You may want to look into the triangulated 4 link offered by air ride technologies, that’s a nice system for your application and you would have less of a hard time with exhaust. one thing that’s nice about a non adjustable system is there is allot less to screw up adjustability is a double edged sword
Would you know if they sell the suspension by itself? I don't want to use air springs, I want a standard coil over shock.
TSSPAYNE69RS
02-20-2006, 02:45 PM
I am also trying to decide between the DSE 4 link and the air ride 4 link. Can someone go over the pros and cons of each??
baz67
02-20-2006, 03:34 PM
One advantage of the DSE is the endlinks. All four link suspension have some bind in them. The DSE enlinks pretty much kills the bind in thier system.
EFI69Cam
02-20-2006, 05:40 PM
I called DSE today. They told me that the panhard bar gets in the way of any stock type exhaust.
I think the air bar is the way to go. They will sell the suspension without the airshocks.
I'll probably be using QA1s all around.
Anyone want to buy my edelbrock shocks and hotchkis springs?
It is true that 4 links do bind but the rock crawler guys use them all the time and they have more articulation then any of our muscle car will ever come close to seeing. most of our cars have about 4 inches of travel that’s not a whole lot. I think a properly set up conventional 4 link would serve most of us just fine. However if one doesn’t know how the countless adjustments affect their vehicle they could possibly make their vehicle launch and or handle worse. the nice thing about the DSE and air ride set up is its pre set to be pretty close so there isn’t much room for error. if you do know how to set up the 4 link its possible to make your car accelerate awesome and handle pretty well too.
DJW32
02-21-2006, 10:53 PM
What about weight savings? Lets say DSE VS. Air ride...
Steve1968LS2
02-22-2006, 08:29 AM
What about weight savings? Lets say DSE VS. Air ride...
Well, the Air Bar system is pretty light.. we knocked almost 50lbs off the back of the car going from leafs to Air Bar.
I would also think it's lighter than the DSE unit since it doesn't use a PHR.. I would call both companies and ask the weight of their systems to be sure. Oh, and that won't tell you the sprung/unsprung weight.
Both are nice systems.
thing that most people forget about is balance of the vehicle sure its nice to have a light car, but if you take a ton of weight off the back and leave the front heavy the car could very well handle worse. Something to keep in mind. also id much rather take 50 lbs of un-sprung weight away then 100 of sprung weight. all things to think about
Mean 69
02-22-2006, 05:49 PM
All four link suspension have some bind in them. The DSE enlinks pretty much kills the bind in thier system.
Point A, yes, all four link systems inherently have bind. The issue lies in the fact that as the system rolls, at least one of the links needs to either lengthen, or contract, to eliminate bind. Point B? I'm not so sure. Unless there is some super cool deal that allows the link end to compress/contract, well, rotational freedom won't help a whole lot. The links don't suffer so much from torsional issues as they do from longitudial strain. Good thing the bushings are rubber!
M
JamesJ
02-22-2006, 06:40 PM
I'm pondering getting the DSE 4 link for my car. I have a couple concerns. I'm not sure I need $500 a pair double adjustable koni shocks. I'm not a autocrosser, I just want the car to be a nice cruiser. Are there any alternatives?
Also how do you get exhaust around the panhard bar? The panhard bar is what makes true duals out the back a pita on 3rd and 4th gens.
Also I would guess that this suspension would not need a rear sway bar?
TIA for any comments.
If all you want is a "nice cruiser" then dont even get the 4 link. Spend the money and time in other places.
agreed some times people don’t give leaf springs enough credit. No matter how you cut it keeping things as simple as possible for you application is the way to go. A good leaf spring is also capable of impressive handling
DJW32
02-23-2006, 03:46 PM
agreed some times people don’t give leaf springs enough credit. No matter how you cut it keeping things as simple as possible for you application is the way to go. A good leaf spring is also capable of impressive handling
I agree...some people don't give leaf springs enough credit.
If someone was going to run the air bar system minus the air shocks, how would someone figure out which QA 1 shock to run... Where would someone start...
your easiest way to go would be to call QA1 and tell them you need a set up for a 4 link.
EFI69Cam
02-23-2006, 04:56 PM
your easiest way to go would be to call QA1 and tell them you need a set up for a 4 link.
Thats what I did. QA1 tech support is pretty good.
good to hear! good luck with your project. I hope every thing goes well
TSSPAYNE69RS
02-27-2006, 09:55 AM
I'm still confused on the best way to go. I already have a set of DSE springs new in box, but I am still teetering about the 4-link. I am mini-tubbing, so will that affect the air-ride connect points? Won't both of the 4-link systems give me more ride height adjustability than the leafs?
DJW32
02-27-2006, 01:52 PM
I'm still confused on the best way to go. I already have a set of DSE springs new in box, but I am still teetering about the 4-link. I am mini-tubbing, so will that affect the air-ride connect points? Won't both of the 4-link systems give me more ride height adjustability than the leafs?
Won't both of the 4-link systems give me more ride height adjustability than the leafs?[/ Yes, a four link should give you more options for adjustability.
I am mini-tubbing, so will that affect the air-ride connect points? I have no idea, but I am curious
Travis B
02-27-2006, 02:11 PM
You CAN run the ART 4 link with the DSE minitubs....ART has done it. Contact Darren at Ridetech he will know what you need and can also tell you what lenght of coil over you would need i'm sure.....
Steve1968LS2
02-27-2006, 02:23 PM
agreed some times people don’t give leaf springs enough credit. No matter how you cut it keeping things as simple as possible for you application is the way to go. A good leaf spring is also capable of impressive handling
Yea, a good leaf spring set-up with say a bolt in watts link (ala the Fay's 2 deal) and you car could handle VERY good.
About the worse part of rear leafs is the lack of adjustability..
streetk14
02-27-2006, 08:56 PM
agreed some times people don’t give leaf springs enough credit. No matter how you cut it keeping things as simple as possible for you application is the way to go. A good leaf spring is also capable of impressive handling
I think most people would be suprised what a properly equipped leaf car can do. But here is another factor that applies to street driven cars: ride quality. Isn't a 4 link (DSE's for example) capable of far better ride quality with comparable performance to a good leaf system? I'm one of those guys who wants good handling, but also what a decent ride. I work on and drive BMWs all day, so I guess you could say I have pretty high standards. Their chassis engineers have it figured out. That is what I would like to get out of my car; Great handling/steering feel and a good ride (think M3). Those cars are just plain fun to drive. BTW, has anybody here actually driven a car with the DSE 4 link? If so, I'd like to hear about it.
-Andy
Charley Lillard
02-27-2006, 09:15 PM
The Thrasher has Landrum leafs and it rides and handles great.
streetk14
02-27-2006, 09:58 PM
The Thrasher has Landrum leafs and it rides and handles great.
How does it compare to the 4-link in the Mule?
ProdigyCustoms
02-28-2006, 03:03 AM
I will never pretend to be a suspension scientist, but I think I have pretty good practical knowledge, experience and common sense when sorting through different options in car building. Personally, without any hard numbers, I cannot imagine undertaking a 4 link installation on the assumption it might be better then leafs. While sexy, I am betting the 4 link offers no advantage in ultimate performance or ride over a properly dialed set of leafs. I feel considering the amount of fabrication required, and the lack of adjustability (which I think is a major Achilles heal to the 4 link system), and probable lack of noticeable improvement, if choosing between the 2 systems, its a no brainier to bolt in some leafs and call it a day. I am fairly certain that is what Charlie is saying in so few words.
If looking for the ultimate live axle set up, there is no doubt the 3 link will kick the doo doo out of either leafs or 4 link, and the adjustability that does not exists with the other systems, is there in a 3 link. And I know we will have some real world numbers on the 3 link soon to back this statement up.
So for me, it would be simple. If I was going to maintain a live axle, no independent, and was willing to do a little fabrication, a 3 link would be it, period.
EFI69Cam
02-28-2006, 05:05 AM
I think most people would be suprised what a properly equipped leaf car can do. But here is another factor that applies to street driven cars: ride quality. Isn't a 4 link (DSE's for example) capable of far better ride quality with comparable performance to a good leaf system? I'm one of those guys who wants good handling, but also what a decent ride. I work on and drive BMWs all day, so I guess you could say I have pretty high standards. Their chassis engineers have it figured out. That is what I would like to get out of my car; Great handling/steering feel and a good ride (think M3). Those cars are just plain fun to drive. BTW, has anybody here actually driven a car with the DSE 4 link? If so, I'd like to hear about it.
-Andy
I agree with you. I want my car to be fun to drive.
If leafs could be engineered to give an acceptable ride, why are even full size trucks going to a 4 link? The 1/2 ton Tahoes and burbs have a 4 link rear now. I looked at one, and the rear suspention looked alot like that on a chevelle or impala.
PhillipM
03-01-2006, 09:35 AM
Hey Charley, I am interested in some Landrum leafs.. but there are so many pound rates to choose from. Do you know which one's you are running?
darren@ridetech
03-01-2006, 11:40 AM
The shipping weigh on the rear AirBar is like 98lbs. Some of that will be packaging materials. We can sell the AirBar without the Shockwaves. But they can also be filled manually with a Schrader valve if you don't want to install the compressor kit.
Damn True
03-01-2006, 02:47 PM
I agree with you. I want my car to be fun to drive.
If leafs could be engineered to give an acceptable ride, why are even full size trucks going to a 4 link? The 1/2 ton Tahoes and burbs have a 4 link rear now. I looked at one, and the rear suspention looked alot like that on a chevelle or impala.
For the same reason manufacturers prefer to build front wheel vs. rear wheel drive cars. Ease of manufacture. The entire rear suspension assembly can be cassete mounted into the frame from below. It removes a couple of stations, and in turn a couple of expensive union employees from the assembly line.
EFI69Cam
03-01-2006, 02:56 PM
For the same reason manufacturers prefer to build front wheel vs. rear wheel drive cars. Ease of manufacture. The entire rear suspension assembly can be cassete mounted into the frame from below. It removes a couple of stations, and in turn a couple of expensive union employees from the assembly line.
I don't buy that. The leaf spring rear is much more simple.
Damn True
03-01-2006, 04:21 PM
I don't buy that. The leaf spring rear is much more simple.
Whatever. You asked the question.
The 4-link is quicker to install into the chassis. As is a front wheel drive as opposed to a rwd. That's why it's used.
If it's only 2 seconds faster....times how many cars per day, times how many cars per year times the salary of three shifts worth of UAW members.
You can provide a ride quality and performance that is as good if not better than the DSE setup with a well tuned leaf setup. It won't be easy or cheap, but it can be done.
EFI69Cam
03-01-2006, 04:44 PM
Whatever. You asked the question.
The 4-link is quicker to install into the chassis. As is a front wheel drive as opposed to a rwd. That's why it's used.
If it's only 2 seconds faster....times how many cars per day, times how many cars per year times the salary of three shifts worth of UAW members.
You can provide a ride quality and performance that is as good if not better than the DSE setup with a well tuned leaf setup. It won't be easy or cheap, but it can be done.
I still think your wrong.
How is hanging a preassembled leaf sping setup more complex than a 4 link? Makes no sense at all.
The same truck line uses leafs in a cheaper pickup, and the four link in the luxury market SUVs. Why would they not save the 2 seconds on the pickup also?
They use the 4 link for ride quality, that is my point. Just like the up market cars (Chevelle Impala Cadillac) even in 1969 used a 4 link.
streetk14
03-01-2006, 08:57 PM
I still think your wrong.
How is hanging a preassembled leaf sping setup more complex than a 4 link? Makes no sense at all.
The same truck line uses leafs in a cheaper pickup, and the four link in the luxury market SUVs. Why would they not save the 2 seconds on the pickup also?
They use the 4 link for ride quality, that is my point. Just like the up market cars (Chevelle Impala Cadillac) even in 1969 used a 4 link.
I'm not putting down leafs at all (I do have them on my car), but I think there is a good reason why they are no longer being used on rear drive production cars. I doubt that it has anything to do with production costs/time. The OEMs spend a lot of time and money designing their suspension systems. They have it pretty well figured out what works best in most cases. Cost is always a factor when manufacturing a car, but it is not the only factor. IMO, a factory engineered link suspension is simply better than a factory leaf setup. If it wasn't, Ford would have used leafs on the new Mustang.
-Andy
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