Car Craft hates PT too! :)

[BonzoHansen]

I just got today's Car Craft in the mail. The editor's letter in the beginning spells out why they only like drag racing and Bonneville type land speed racing. Here is his take on pro touring:


...A big argument is that Pro-Touring or G-Touring or whatever you want to call it is a distant modern interpretation of early NASCAR rides with big tries and the emphasis on handling. Problem is, these cars aren't roaring around Talladega 'cause you can't get in. And if you could, you'd likely do a couple of laps at 120 or so and let loose the rods. That's why you see the P/T cars at the car shows more than anywhere else.
I didn’t realize P/T cars were modeled after roundy-rounds. I guess I need more stagger in the alignment. :hammer: I guess we can't expect much from a mag that has a XX page article on painting your car at home and never once mentions safety or respirators. :rolleyes:

Just a post to get a laugh, not to define P/T!

[Samckitt]

That's it, I am done with Car Craft!

[Foudie]

A good example as to why I let my subscription to Car Craft expire when I entered Junior High. Sounds like they are stuck in the 80's right where I left them.

[Bill Howell]

Another uninformed editor, spouting off about something he is clueless about. Why, oh why does protouring have to be connected at the hip with racing???? Reality is, the more race oriented a car is the less TOURING it will do. Simple fact of life, just like the fact that if it will corner well, it probably will not be the ultimate drag racer. Compromise, compromise, compromise.We want a good mixture of all the different aspects, straightline, cornering and touring. Now, why is that so hard to understand? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Bill Howell]

Some one post an email addy for this guy, and lets bombbard him with emails, linking him to this site and thread. Maybe then he will get it or, at least understand what protouring is next time he opens his mouth.

[69rs]

Hook him up with Johnny. Have them each bring a car to Year One and do every event!

[BonzoHansen]

I just posted this for a laugh, not to start a letter writing campaign. But I bet you could find his addy at the CC website. :)

The guys is a Freiburger boy, so you know all he likes is clapped out stuff held together by duct tape & jb weld (and some sponsor parts). I only have 4 months left, then it is gone. PHR took its place.

[rocketman]

car craft is the worst hi performance car mag out there.they are a copycat mag anyway after read an article in another mag acouple months later they do it word for word.

[StRacerDuke]

It must be hard when big brother has all the better features, quality builds, higher budget, and better tech. I guess the only thing left to do in that situation is attack the better cars.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

We have all been enlightened by the wisdom of Doug Glad. Many thanks and praise to him.

Hey Doug,

You need to do some research as your notion of what pro-touring is has been so greatly misconstrued; please don't impose such misconceptions on your readers.

[TonyL]

It must be hard when big brother has all the better features, quality builds, higher budget, and better tech. I guess the only thing left to do in that situation is attack the better cars.

EXACTLY.

It's the only thing they can do at this point. they are trying to claim all the "haters" who write in and tell PHR how much we suck, and give them a home.

[Steve1968LS2]

Some one post an email addy for this guy, and lets bombbard him with emails, linking him to this site and thread. Maybe then he will get it or, at least understand what protouring is next time he opens his mouth.

I could never give out his email addy.. but it should be listed in the front of the magazine ;)

and if that isn't enough then you could figure out that all the addys are something like

[email protected]

But again, I can't give you his email address.. :lmao:

[TonyL]

P.S.

We MUST email, write, fax or whatever we can the true origin of pro-touring to this clown.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

the "NASCAR" look is a whole new segment, yet to be named.

[EFI69Cam]

I just got today's Car Craft in the mail. The editor's letter in the beginning spells out why they only like drag racing and Bonneville type land speed racing. Here is his take on pro touring:


I didn’t realize P/T cars were modeled after roundy-rounds. I guess I need more stagger in the alignment. :hammer: I guess we can't expect much from a mag that has a XX page article on painting your car at home and never once mentions safety or respirators. :rolleyes:

Just a post to get a laugh, not to define P/T!


Isn't carcraft the mag that still has cars with pink interiors and diagonal side stripes?
Lost in the pro-***** er I mean street era I guess.

[shmoov69]

Ahh, once again. The old you don't understand me, so you suck game! :twothumbs C'mon guys, get a grip! :poke: This guys posts what HE feels because he is paid to do that (among other things). Yes, we all know that Car Craft is a drag race, cheapskate, dirtbag kind of mag. So what? To each thier own. I dig the mag, but that is because I am a drag race, cheapskate, dirtbag kind of guy! Oh, that likes pro touring also! WHat I took from his article is that he is stating that PT is like Nascar in its beginings. Stock bodied cars that people took and hopped up to go like stink and to drive like mad in the twisties out runnin' the fuzz to drop off the booze (we don't do that part!). The good ones even redone their suspension and brakes to "get away" without any problems. Isn't that what are cars are now in a much, much more modern way. With creature comforts also.
The Tallegada thing seems like just ramble/filler that don't make much sense.
But the sitting at shows is a very valid point. Some of the people here do take their cars to the track alot, but this is a hardcore group. There are FAR MORE PT style (read STYLE) cars out there that don't touch a twisty. So, that IMO is a valid statement.
But maybe I misread or mistook what he was saying. Maybe he meant that all PT cars suck because they are posers and do not go down the strip or the salt. :hand:
Maybe PT should have a mag just for us. LOL!
>me puts on flame suit!<

[JMarsa]

With all the above comments, and specifically what Tony said, my car will be a mix of PT, vintage Trans Am and Nascar. What's that called?

--JMarsa

[shmoov69]

With all the above comments, and specifically what Tony said, my car will be a mix of PT, vintage Trans Am and Nascar. What's that called?

--JMarsa


What you like and paid for!! :cool:

[indyjps]

i will continue to subscribe to car craft because every once in a while they do an article about actually fixing something rather than just bolting up the newest kit. what i got from the editorial was that way too many pro-touring cars become show cars and not drivers, which is what changed pro street from street racers to show ground queens anyway. i agree he is misinformormed about the origins of pro-touring and should be schooled, im glad freiburger is gone though, his endless stream of crappy mopars was getting old, nothing against mopars, but there are some models that should be put out to pasture, an aluminum slant 6 feature?, who gives a crap put it in a truck and beat it to death, thats what they were good for.

[TonyL]

my car will be a mix of PT, vintage Trans Am and Nascar. What's that called?


Cool? Bitchin?

[Dayton]

I hear in next months Car Craft they are going to do a spread on Joe Dirt's Daytona
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[USAZR1]

The guy is a Freiburger boy, so you know all he likes is clapped out stuff held together by duct tape & jb weld (and some sponsor parts).

That's pretty much my feeling about CC too,Bonzo. I've always thought that magazine was a joke. Have never been a subscriber because it's so bad.

[67LS1T56]

I see the Car Craft magazine as "beginner" magazin. If you are member to it couple of years you will see that it's repeiting itself. It's for beginners.

[Rick Dorion]

All the mags bring something to the table and, for the subscription cost, I'm satisfied. I think we could pick apart any mag ( no offence, Steve!). Pro-touring has been around forever. Just not labeled. I've known people since the 60's, myself included, that always improved suspension, brakes, etc. For me it also included my bikes :) I used to run time trials at Lime Rock and be accused of motor tricks. It was all in the suspension :)

[vanzuuk1]

I will reserve judgment until I read the whole thing, but so far hes a little off base .

[gearbanger]

You know the same editor is over CarCraft and Hotrod. I don't really understand HotRod's position on ProTouring. Almost every cover is a PT car and most of the articles in it are PT cars. Who knows? Back when this guy took over CarCraft, he said CC would be the entry level "poor man's" hotrod magazine, and the HotRod would be reserved for the "money is no object" all out hotrods. To me that is kind of what Pro-touring is. I mean really, there is nothing cheap about Pro-touring.

[Bill Howell]

I could never give out his email addy.. but it should be listed in the front of the magazine ;)

and if that isn't enough then you could figure out that all the addys are something like

[email protected]

But again, I can't give you his email address.. :lmao:

Uhm...... [email protected]
I had a good one written too, came back undeliverable. :banghead: :banghead: :throw: :throw:

[derekf]

You didn't really send it to "@primemedia.com", did you Bill? It's primedia.

[Bill Howell]

You didn't really send it to "@primemedia.com", did you Bill? It's primedia.

[email protected] <---taking off the returned email :dunno:

[derekf]

maybe it's Douglas? Dougie? Doogie?

[Dayton]

How bout,
DGlad@ or,
D.Glad@

[Derek69SS]

I mean really, there is nothing cheap about Pro-touring.It CAN be cheap if you're willing to settle for "better" instead of "best", and shop swap-meets, classified ads, and junk-yards instead of mail-order catalogs. It also helps if you can do most or all of the work yourself. When it gets expensive, is when you start trying to make things look pretty. If you want pure function, and not overkill, you can build a car pretty cheap.

I like Car Craft. They do the things I have done, and can afford to do.

[Y-TRY]

I TOTALLY agree with the vintage Trans-Am influece of ProTouring.

Ironically, the whole P-T thing for me was mainly influenced by Car Craft's own Real Street Eliminator challenge. The RSE is the greatest, IMO. Did this editor forget about that?

[s10cyncrvr]

They do have Krass and Bernie though. I almost kept my subscription going just for that.

[slowcamaro]

[email protected] via http://www.carcraft.com/douglasglad/index.html

[Steve1968LS2]

Uhm...... [email protected]
I had a good one written too, came back undeliverable. :banghead: :banghead: :throw: :throw:

It's not PRIMEMEDIA .. it's PRIMEDIA :)

Also, they use the full and complete legal first names.. so mine is steveN instead of steve.. :smashcomp

[Jim Nilsen]

YTRY beat me to it. I too want to know if this guy ever read any issues of CC in his life? I bet he wondered for a long time what CC meant when he started to work there and then someone probably told him that they created RSE and he didn't know what that was either. Now he is talking like he doen't know what NASCAR means either. If he ever saw a TRANS-AM car he would still be clueless more than likely. :idea:

I have to wonder if he isn't just poking us around to see if he can get some responses out of us to be able to put them in upcoming issues to start making it more interesting for the readers and bring back RSE into the picture again. RSE never was able to make them as big as they wished and they talked about it in a few issues. That is what the truth is and he has to know it, don't ya think?

Trying to get us back into CC this way isn't exactly what I would consider the way to do it but asking us nicely to drop PHR and come back to CC where RSE started what we are doing is probably not going to work with his messed up head either.

He's probably laughing at us while he reads our post thinking that we fell for the bait to write to him. If we all make sure that we put PHR comments in our responses to him they probably won't get printed. So make sure you just talk about CC and that you really like the Bonneville idea and have to wonder why the 0-200-0 competition won't be held there or at Talledega? We all know you can't stop fast on salt but hey , it is still going fast isn't it? If he was even smart enough he would know that Camaros,Corvettes,Mustangs, and many other pace cars have been able to do 150mph at the big tracks for a long time, not 120mph.

I say we should just ignore him and let the wind never build up in his sales so to speak and it will give PHR the credit for PT like they have earned from us. If he is going to talk SMACK he better get a lot better at it than that.

Jim Nilsen

[Bill Howell]

[email protected] via http://www.carcraft.com/douglasglad/index.html

That one seemed to work, thanks. Hopefully he will join in on the fun here and learn who and what we are.

[trapin]

Hmmm.....am I the only one that doesn't find what Doug said to be all that insulting?

Sounds like he might be a bit confused about what Pro-Touring is but I don't think that he was necessarily taking a shot at us.

[trapin]

.......and that HotRod would be reserved for the "money is no object" all out hotrods. To me that is kind of what Pro-touring is. I mean really, there is nothing cheap about Pro-touring.
That is a stigma that I hope never gets attached to Pro-Touring. If Pro-Touring becomes "all about money" you'll see me be the first to untie the dingy and jump off this sinking ship.

Good God that scares the hell out of me.

[kennyd]

if you dont like what he said , dont buy the magazine . car crap is for pinto owners that have a extra 460 ford boat motor behind the trailer house that they want to weld in ,take off the hatch and doors and go run 13s in !

[BonzoHansen]

I totally posted this as a goof, especially after the Hot Rod and what is PT threads. :)


Hey, I agree on the RSE thing. That is much more in line with PT. Maybe it is one of those things that when it gets popular it isn’t cool anymore. Like Metallica. :)

[JMarsa]

That is a stigma that I hope never gets attached to Pro-Touring. If Pro-Touring becomes "all about money" you'll see me be the first to untie the dingy and jump off this sinking ship.

Good God that scares the hell out of me.

Tony, I've felt that way here for many months now. Barret Jackson this...X has $xxx,000 in that car...$5K subframes ect.... :hand:

IMO it's been a slow winter for builds and actual tech talk and nothin but a bunch of moved off topic threads.

--JMarsa

[vanzuuk1]

Trapin it will be all about the money for some people, just like street rodding or choppers are now. But there will be the cool cars/bikes built on a budget, even cooler if there creative and out of the box.My car seems to have more and more pieces made from old signs that I got from work, nothing big budget about that.

Dont lose faith...

[vintageracer]

This hobby is like every other hobby and life in general in today's world, It's all about the Money!!!

The more you make the more you spend. Why have a Tune Port motor or a LT-1 in your 69 Camaro when you can have an LS1 that's new and cool? Why have a 5 speed 69 Camaro when you can have a 6 speed 69 Camaro? I do not care what you hobby is today you can figure on spending at least $10K on ANY hobby. Fishing, you need poles, then a boat, trailer, truck, now a new better boat etc. Golf, clubs, a ball, green fees, a cart, a club membership, new clubs again etc. Pick a hobby, and you will spend $10K very quickly.

Look at most business's in our country, they are SMALL BUSINESS'S that manufacture/service/sell a bunch of crap that we as consumer's DO NOT NEED, JUST WANT! And rest assured, small business's are the backbone of our country, not the big corporations. Just look at the employment numbers for small business versuses big business. More people times 10 work for small business's than big coroporations. Just look at our hobby and the business that serve our hobby. A few of the business's are rather large but most all started out very small.

Everything in modern life is "All about the Money". You go to work to pay the mortgage on the house you want, pay car payments on the car you can't afford, pay the credit card bill for all the crap you bought but no longer use or remember purchasing. And then we all bitch about the fact that we are UNDERPAID for the work we do???? Most people cannot quit the job they currently have and go and get another job that pays more money than they currently make within 6 months. Thereofore I think most people are OVERPAID not underpaid! They are also overweight instead of underweight but that's another thread!

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the "Pro-Tourung" portion of the car hobby viewed as "All about the money". That way "Pro-Touring" is viewed the same as every other aspect of the car hobby since money is what drives this whole car hobby.

At $5K is a fabricator making a "big lick" selling subframes for second genertation Camaro's? You bet he is! Of course it might cost him $25K to make the first one with all the engineeering, manufacturing, testing, marketing, screw-ups etc. Subframes are not different than any other newly designed and manufactured product. The first one costs a BUNCH! The chances are good that you are not going to sell of bunch of $5K subframes so you better recover your money fast or sell lot's of cheaper subframes.

I think we should be happy/pleased that there are individuals out there that will invest their time, talent, money and effort to produce these neat parts that we all want to buy. Rather than criticize and bitch, praise the visionaries who take the plunge to make new products for a car we do not need, just want. We should encourge these entreprenuers to build bigger and better even if we do not like the product they make. Bad attitudes can kill anything! The marketplace will automatically kill bad products.

Think about the lifestyle you live today at the age you are now and then look back at your parents lifestyle at the same age. Wanna trade? The problem today is that we are unwilling, not unable to live our parents lifestyle. Therefore families today have monumental DEBT! Most of our parents families had just one family car much less a "play toy" car. And when I was a kid and the President was on TV, we were really screwed as he was on ALL 3 CHANNELS! So let's encourge any and all entreprenuers that want to make products for our play toys!

Now that I have totally highjacked this thread with absolutely no technical information concerning the original subframe question, let the flames begin!!!

[Bill Howell]

Preach on Brother Mike!
BTW, did you buy any cars today......lol

[Bob Johnson]

if you dont like what he said , dont buy the magazine . car crap is for pinto owners that have a extra 460 ford boat motor behind the trailer house that they want to weld in ,take off the hatch and doors and go run 13s in !
it's so damn cheap I can't resist the subscription deal

[Bill Howell]

it's so damn cheap I can't resist the subscription deal
I got two truck loads of horse crap in the pasture. Cheap! Want it? lol
I bet you are a sucker for them super size bargains at MickyD's too....

[vanzuuk1]

Mike We are off topic a little, but just today was telling someone about sirious radio and i said on the one hand its got a lot of cool stuff to listen to, but on the other hand its another gadget with wires, batteries and a remote to deal with. Its another gadget i wish I never knew existed.

[Bob Johnson]

You know the same editor is over CarCraft and Hotrod. I don't really understand HotRod's position on ProTouring. Almost every cover is a PT car and most of the articles in it are PT cars. Who knows? Back when this guy took over CarCraft, he said CC would be the entry level "poor man's" hotrod magazine, and the HotRod would be reserved for the "money is no object" all out hotrods. To me that is kind of what Pro-touring is. I mean really, there is nothing cheap about Pro-touring.
I presume you're speaking about Freiburger when you say he's over Hot Rod and Car Craft. He's now over Popular Hot Rodding and a slew of more magazines..He's a guy you would be wise not to alienate unless you've got real justification..It's self defeating to hammer him just for the heck of it. I don't think he has time to be that involved with any individual magazine since he's over so many. Probably just approves the direction they are going in and makes sure they are moving in the right direction. He's the man on the move at Primedia it seems to me.

[Bob Johnson]

Mike We are off topic a little, but just today was telling someone about sirious radio and i said on the one hand its got a lot of cool stuff to listen to, but on the other hand its another gadget with wires, batteries and a remote to deal with. Its another gadget i wish I never knew existed.
Ol Howard appreciates your contribution..couple million like you and he'll get his fat check..cannot for the life of me see how some of these people can command this kind of money..What happened to the grease man? He got banned in Atlanta

[Bob Johnson]

I got two truck loads of horse crap in the pasture. Cheap! Want it? lol
I bet you are a sucker for them super size bargains at MickyD's too....
Why would I buy your horse sh*t when I've got an unlimited supply of bull sh*t??
I'd hate to get in between you and a super dooper size combo maga meal..be like getting caught in the street during the run of the bulls..

[woody80z28]

I love Car Craft. Maybe that's because I'm a "beginner" and most definately "broke". The way I see it Car Craft tells me stuff I need to know for my Camaro sitting in my garage, the kinda beat up one that I like to beat on.

Popular Hot Rodding is the one that gives me wood and makes me think about what to do with the Camaro in my head (the one I'll never be able to afford...) It's just a different viewpoint.

[vintageracer]

Cooter,

Frieberger "is" the man on the move at Primedia! Subscriptions are up, of course most subscriptions are now SUPER cheap, so no wonder subscriptions up and since subscriptions are up Frieberger MUST be correct in the direction "he" is taking the magazines under his control!

More subscriptions equals additional paid advertising and "MO MONEY"! Oops, there's that money thing again. It's a rather viscous cycle.

In my opinion, most of the Primedia mags are rags with lot's of filler/ads/pictures and little content. Most of their rags are now cheap enough now that I will subscribe to more of their rags than in the past on the chance they will have one or two things worth seeing/reading every month. End result is I actually send more total subscription money to Primedia for more of their rags than every before!!! I guess Frieberger is right. It's quantity over quality! If it's perceived to be cheap enough consumers (me) will buy a product with poor quality.

Maybe that's why Primedia has a big display at SEMA and "gives" away all those free magazines so saps like me will bite on the cheap subscription price and subscibe to more of their rags.

Frieberger's the man!

[Bob Johnson]

YTRY beat me to it. I too want to know if this guy ever read any issues of CC in his life? I bet he wondered for a long time what CC meant when he started to work there and then someone probably told him that they created RSE and he didn't know what that was either. Now he is talking like he doen't know what NASCAR means either. If he ever saw a TRANS-AM car he would still be clueless more than likely. :idea:

I have to wonder if he isn't just poking us around to see if he can get some responses out of us to be able to put them in upcoming issues to start making it more interesting for the readers and bring back RSE into the picture again. RSE never was able to make them as big as they wished and they talked about it in a few issues. That is what the truth is and he has to know it, don't ya think?

Trying to get us back into CC this way isn't exactly what I would consider the way to do it but asking us nicely to drop PHR and come back to CC where RSE started what we are doing is probably not going to work with his messed up head either.

He's probably laughing at us while he reads our post thinking that we fell for the bait to write to him. If we all make sure that we put PHR comments in our responses to him they probably won't get printed. So make sure you just talk about CC and that you really like the Bonneville idea and have to wonder why the 0-200-0 competition won't be held there or at Talledega? We all know you can't stop fast on salt but hey , it is still going fast isn't it? If he was even smart enough he would know that Camaros,Corvettes,Mustangs, and many other pace cars have been able to do 150mph at the big tracks for a long time, not 120mph.

I say we should just ignore him and let the wind never build up in his sales so to speak and it will give PHR the credit for PT like they have earned from us. If he is going to talk SMACK he better get a lot better at it than that.

Jim Nilsen
you can't accelerate or stop on salt..that's why they have the long track..be like ice racing without the tire studs..Love to get the 0-200-0 held at the entrance road to Talledega..long enough, wide enough, and little to no traffic. Decent Altitude ..reasonable surface too..plus salt will eat your car up..can't get all that salt off no mater what.

[vanzuuk1]

Ol Howard gets his check no matter what I buy, but I got satellite to follow howard. Another gadget to deal with.

[Bob Johnson]

Cooter,

Frieberger "is" the man on the move at Primedia! Subscriptions are up, of course most subscriptions are now SUPER cheap, so no wonder subscriptions up and since subscriptions are up Frieberger MUST be correct in the direction "he" is taking the magazines under his control!

More subscriptions equals additional paid advertising and "MO MONEY"! Oops, there's that money thing again. It's a rather viscous cycle.

In my opinion, most of the Primedia mags are rags with lot's of filler/ads/pictures and little content. Most of their rags are now cheap enough now that I will subscribe to more of their rags than in the past on the chance they will have one or two things worth seeing/reading every month. End result is I actually send more total subscription money to Primedia for more of their rags than every before!!! I guess Frieberger is right. It's quantity over quality! If it's perceived to be cheap enough consumers (me) will buy a product with poor quality.

Maybe that's why Primedia has a big display at SEMA and "gives" away all those free magazines so saps like me will bite on the cheap subscription price and subscibe to more of their rags.

Frieberger's the man!
hard to sell advertising if you don't have the readers. The money is in the advertising. Look at the amount of advertising in Street Rodder Magazine. Poor ol Hunkins has a hard time luring in the advertisers since his magazine just doesn't have the newstand presence. If they aren't on the stand, you aren't going to get the readership unless they're subscribers. Plus PHR is more expensive than Hot Rod subscription wise. Hot Rod is without a direction, but it always has something to entertain me. 2 years or so ago that was a different story. I had let my Hot Rod subscription expire..it was that bad.

[shmoov69]

This hobby is like every other hobby and life in general in today's world, It's all about the Money!!!

The more you make the more you spend. Why have a Tune Port motor or a LT-1 in your 69 Camaro when you can have an LS1 that's new and cool? Why have a 5 speed 69 Camaro when you can have a 6 speed 69 Camaro? I do not care what you hobby is today you can figure on spending at least $10K on ANY hobby. Fishing, you need poles, then a boat, trailer, truck, now a new better boat etc. Golf, clubs, a ball, green fees, a cart, a club membership, new clubs again etc. Pick a hobby, and you will spend $10K very quickly.

Look at most business's in our country, they are SMALL BUSINESS'S that manufacture/service/sell a bunch of crap that we as consumer's DO NOT NEED, JUST WANT! And rest assured, small business's are the backbone of our country, not the big corporations. Just look at the employment numbers for small business versuses big business. More people times 10 work for small business's than big coroporations. Just look at our hobby and the business that serve our hobby. A few of the business's are rather large but most all started out very small.

Everything in modern life is "All about the Money". You go to work to pay the mortgage on the house you want, pay car payments on the car you can't afford, pay the credit card bill for all the crap you bought but no longer use or remember purchasing. And then we all bitch about the fact that we are UNDERPAID for the work we do???? Most people cannot quit the job they currently have and go and get another job that pays more money than they currently make within 6 months. Thereofore I think most people are OVERPAID not underpaid! They are also overweight instead of underweight but that's another thread!

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the "Pro-Tourung" portion of the car hobby viewed as "All about the money". That way "Pro-Touring" is viewed the same as every other aspect of the car hobby since money is what drives this whole car hobby.

At $5K is a fabricator making a "big lick" selling subframes for second genertation Camaro's? You bet he is! Of course it might cost him $25K to make the first one with all the engineeering, manufacturing, testing, marketing, screw-ups etc. Subframes are not different than any other newly designed and manufactured product. The first one costs a BUNCH! The chances are good that you are not going to sell of bunch of $5K subframes so you better recover your money fast or sell lot's of cheaper subframes.

I think we should be happy/pleased that there are individuals out there that will invest their time, talent, money and effort to produce these neat parts that we all want to buy. Rather than criticize and bitch, praise the visionaries who take the plunge to make new products for a car we do not need, just want. We should encourge these entreprenuers to build bigger and better even if we do not like the product they make. Bad attitudes can kill anything! The marketplace will automatically kill bad products.

Think about the lifestyle you live today at the age you are now and then look back at your parents lifestyle at the same age. Wanna trade? The problem today is that we are unwilling, not unable to live our parents lifestyle. Therefore families today have monumental DEBT! Most of our parents families had just one family car much less a "play toy" car. And when I was a kid and the President was on TV, we were really screwed as he was on ALL 3 CHANNELS! So let's encourge any and all entreprenuers that want to make products for our play toys!

Now that I have totally highjacked this thread with absolutely no technical information concerning the original subframe question, let the flames begin!!!

:usa: Almost brought a tear to my eye! :usa:

[BigBronco]

that is pretty bad I must admit... He definately needs to read up just a tad bit more on Pro Touring

[Bill Howell]

Poor ol Hunkins has a hard time luring in the advertisers since his magazine just doesn't have the newstand presence. If they aren't on the stand, you aren't going to get the readership unless they're subscribers. Plus PHR is more expensive than Hot Rod subscription wise. Hot Rod is without a direction, but it always has something to entertain me. 2 years or so ago that was a different story. I had let my Hot Rod subscription expire..it was that bad.
PHR will be in good shape after this month, I am sure news stand sales are up, with that beautiful Goat on the cover. I know the numbers are up in Sevier county (thanks mom). Now if we can just get through the April issue without losing too much ground........lol

[formula]

I hear in next months Car Craft they are going to do a spread on Joe Dirt's Daytona
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Just on a side note....That car was actually an absolutely gorgeous machine, dirtied up by hollywood for the movie. It's really plum crazy purple and in immaculate condition underneath. So...that could actually be a pretty good article, lol.

Just a few thoughts I have on pro-touring and where things are headed: Just like all hotrodding trends (presuming hotrodding=customizing cars), pro-touring will eventually get more and more high-dollar purely out of one-upmanship. Look at bob johnson's 'cuda. Absolutely incredible car! Annnnd....horrifyingly expensive by most people's standards. Just like street rods are today, pro-touring cars will be tomorrow. And just like rat rods today, rat-touring will rise. I expect to see more and more ragged out, stripped out, bare necessity cars as "pro-touring" projects become more and more grandiose.

Already I'm dreaming of a home-fabbed, stripped out 69 with nothin but a ripped up old corbeau, a couple gauges, and a bare shifter from a junkyard t-56 inside, bolted up to a dirty ls1 pulled straight out of a wrecked camaro, sitting between a home-fabbed set of rails with some dirty c5 suspension bolted up- built to haul serious butt, and not much else, and not for much money. Primer with some black stripes, maybe.

Then again, I could be wrong. We'll see.

[trapin]

If that ship's sailing to the high dollar waters of street rodding and Barret Jackson nonsense, then I'm stayin' on the docks with the greenhorns. I'll carve my little niche in the Hot Rodding community right there...showing people how they can still do it without having a corporation's unit shoved up their ass.

Big money...big parts...I gotta big sausage you can suck on. G28 ain't gonna have NOTHING on this mofo.

Yeah Boyyyeeeeee!!!!!

....now if you'll excuse me, I have to take my Fibercon.

[Damn True]

Already I'm dreaming of a home-fabbed, stripped out 69 with nothin but a ripped up old corbeau, a couple gauges, and a bare shifter from a junkyard t-56 inside, bolted up to a dirty ls1 pulled straight out of a wrecked camaro, sitting between a home-fabbed set of rails with some dirty c5 suspension bolted up- built to haul serious butt, and not much else, and not for much money. Primer with some black stripes, maybe.

Then again, I could be wrong. We'll see.

Do so and I'll shake your hand as we pop a couple of really cheap beers and laugh at the goons that have CARS that are too expensive to DRIVE.

[69Myway]

I am a long time CC subscriber. I find the general tone of the zine and many of the tech articles to be right on par with my project levels. I subscribe to several magazines but will grab cc first and carry it with me to work to enjoy during my lunch break.

I like the "IN and OUT" columns and the low buck mods they feature each month. It is not the "trailer queen" zine, and you are more likely to see a CC type car out on a Saturday night kicking some street butt than you will many of the other feature cars.

This is also true for PHR, etc, but what I really like is the diversity of cars featured. I feel like I get a better idea of what is out there instead of only looking at Camaro and Corvette stuff (my first loves).

The funny thing is, I didn't even see this comment in my latest issue as I have been way too busy to read it!

[Bob Johnson]

If that ship's sailing to the high dollar waters of street rodding and Barret Jackson nonsense, then I'm stayin' on the docks with the greenhorns. I'll carve my little niche in the Hot Rodding community right there...showing people how they can still do it without having a corporation's unit shoved up their ass.

Big money...big parts...I gotta big sausage you can suck on. G28 ain't gonna have NOTHING on this mofo.

Yeah Boyyyeeeeee!!!!!

....now if you'll excuse me, I have to take my Fibercon.
bet it's a vienna.. word is, it looks like a grub worm with a turtle neck sweater on it...

[Bob Johnson]

If that ship's sailing to the high dollar waters of street rodding and Barret Jackson nonsense, then I'm stayin' on the docks with the greenhorns. I'll carve my little niche in the Hot Rodding community right there...showing people how they can still do it without having a corporation's unit shoved up their ass.

Big money...big parts...I gotta big sausage you can suck on. G28 ain't gonna have NOTHING on this mofo.

Yeah Boyyyeeeeee!!!!!

....now if you'll excuse me, I have to take my Fibercon.
can't wait for The Nationals, Indy, and Columbus where I can go run the back rows and look at the junk yard parts somebody put on their clapped out heap. Don't get me wrong, I love rat rods..but it takes imagination, talent etc to build one that excites me. Hey it takes all kinds..but you see the crowd around the nice stuff..not the low buck stuff..can't have a successful show without something nice to show everyone..different strokes for different folks..that's why they sell OL MILWAUKEE and BASS ALE..You might want to knock Barrett, but it's the Superbowl of auctions..I for one think it is good for the hobby.

[trapin]

bet it's a vienna.. word is, it looks like a grub worm with a turtle neck sweater on it...
Funny thing is...every time I look down at it, I can't help but be reminded of you. :Alchy:

[derekf]

There's something horribly wrong with that statement.

[Bob Johnson]

Funny thing is...every time I look down at it, I can't help but be reminded of you. :Alchy:
unfortunately this is so true..is it true there's a sign over your urinal that says..whatcha lookin up here for? The joke is in your hand???

[Bob Johnson]

There's something horribly wrong with that statement.
I wish it was wrong..sad thing is it won't even get that hard w/o serious stimulation nowadays..that's why I built the Cuda..instant wood..petrified style too..YaHOOOOO!!! Now if I can just fine something to stick it in

[Jim Nilsen]

Hey Cooter, I didn't know Talladega had the room for an event like that on the way to the parking lot. Just think? it could be the first time cars would be doing 200 there and the track was the parking lot and the parking lot the pits.
I knew that the salt has no traction to accelerate,just didn't think to mention it too. I like the idea of running 200 on something more stable anyway. The salt is for cars that need enough room to get to the hand of god to stop them before they give up trying to get more. Spinning tires at 200 is dangerous but I hear it happens all the time and those parachutes won't be allowed for stopping in the 0-200-0 events.

I wish you all the luck at the 0-200-0 competition so you can win the bet from Frieburger but you will have your hands full with Jeff Schwartz if he shows up, the Ultima is going to be hard for everyone to beat.

Jim Nilsen

[trapin]

.....Now if I can just fine something to stick it in
LOL!!!! Somebody else can take that one. I'm out. :lmao:

[Bob Johnson]

LOL!!!! Somebody else can take that one. I'm out. :lmao:
I'll drink to that

[Bob Johnson]

Hey Cooter, I didn't know Talladega had the room for an event like that on the way to the parking lot. Just think? it could be the first time cars would be doing 200 there and the track was the parking lot and the parking lot the pits.
I knew that the salt has no traction to accelerate,just didn't think to mention it too. I like the idea of running 200 on something more stable anyway. The salt is for cars that need enough room to get to the hand of god to stop them before they give up trying to get more. Spinning tires at 200 is dangerous but I hear it happens all the time and those parachutes won't be allowed for stopping in the 0-200-0 events.

I wish you all the luck at the 0-200-0 competition so you can win the bet from Friegurger but you will have your hands full with Jeff Schwartz if he shows up, the Ultima is going to be hard for everyone to beat.

Jim Nilsen
hell I'm afraid of the Caddy..much less the Ultima..that guy is off the hook

[Travis B]

I'll drink to that

I hear you'll drink to anything :smoke:

[Steve1968LS2]

Funny thing is...every time I look down at it, I can't help but be reminded of you. :Alchy:

Sounds like a line from Brokeback Mountain.. :doh:

[Travis B]

Sounds like a line from Brokeback Mountain.. :doh:


:here!:
does that mean you have seen it?

[vanzuuk1]

Jim The ultima is a fast car, Jeff is an awesome driver.

A few guys named johnson show up and now all we see discussed are johnsons. I dont want to hear about the pt club's "members".

Just dont use "bob johnson" as a verb, please.

ITS been lively since Bob took over. I mean that in a good way.

[69Myway]

I just finished reading my Feb 06 issue. On page 76 regarding the RSE XV, they are commenting on the 4th place 68 Camaro owned by Frank Scopelliti.


"Outfitting first-gen Camaros with trick hardware in the name of Pro Touring is currently a hot topic, but the final product of these efforts often has a more impressive tech sheet than track record." - Douglas R. Glad, Jeff Smith, Terry McGean.


Hmmmm, don't know what you think about that. (Although it might be as true as pointing out that most ricers you see are all show and no go.)

[derekf]

. I dont want to hear about the pt club's "members".

...

I been lively since Bob took over. I mean that in a good way.

I don't think there's a good way for us to take that.

[Bob Johnson]

:here!:
does that mean you have seen it?
The term "A Big Johnson" unfortunately doesn't apply to me..too many witnesses for me to fib

[Travis B]

The term "A Big Johnson" unfortunately doesn't apply to me..too many witnesses for me to fib


No bob I was asking steve if he had watched broke back mountain??? since he sounded so well versed on the movie....lol

[Travis B]

I don't think there's a good way for us to take that.


maybe it just didn't come out right that or I don't really follow what hes saying

[BonzoHansen]

...different strokes for different folks..that's why they sell OL MILWAUKEE and BASS ALE...I drink Bass Ale. Now, is that a good thing or a bad thing? :lol:

[BonzoHansen]

"Outfitting first-gen Camaros with trick hardware in the name of Pro Touring is currently a hot topic, but the final product of these efforts often has a more impressive tech sheet than track record." - Douglas R. Glad, Jeff Smith, Terry McGean.

Hmmmm, don't know what you think about that. (Although it might be as true as pointing out that most ricers you see are all show and no go.)

That is a slap too. I do not argue if that is true. It’s as true as the 8 billion guys with giant tires & air shocks in the back of a Camaro in the name of drag racing. No matter the ‘genre’, it is probably safe to assume at least the 80/20 rule, with 20% being done right and the other 80%, well, … And 20% is probably too high. But why take the specific jab; especially considering it was while discussing the RSE, which seems to capture the spirit of PT? Maybe GW & DSE are not making a big enough advertising donation. :)

[Steve Chryssos]

Well, I haven't read the editorial yet, but Jim Nilson hit the nail on the head: I can tell you from first hand knowledge that the editors are consciously and intentionally stirring the pot. That was the statement made at the tail end of an all night poker game in L.A. a coupla weeks ago.

"Nothin' wrong (hiccup-burp) with stirring the pot to help sell a few extra magazines. Pass the Pringles....(fart)"

That's what was said. Don't be fooled. These guys thoroughly understand pro-touring. Think about it: How could Car Craft, the magazine that hosts RSE, not understand pro-touring? Pete Mungo's AMX? Frank Scopelleti's Camaro? Andrew Borodin's GTO? Come on. They get it. Doug Glad gets it. Dave Frieburger gets it. Rob Kinnan gets it.

Keep reminding yourself that they're just stirring the pot to sell mags. Ignore them and don't get all defensive. Resist the urge. Don't email 'em. Don't post, start or otherwise propagate these types of threads about them.

Just do your own thing.

[Travis B]

Well, I haven't read the editorial yet, but Jim Nilson hit the nail on the head: I can tell you from first hand knowledge that the editors are consciously and intentionally stirring the pot. That was the statement made at the tail end of an all night poker game in L.A. a coupla weeks ago.

"Nothin' wrong (hiccup-burp) with stirring the pot to help sell a few extra magazines. Pass the Pringles....(fart)"

That's what was said. Don't be fooled. These guys thoroughly understand pro-touring. Think about it: How could Car Craft, the magazine that hosts RSE, not understand pro-touring? Pete Mungo's AMX? Frank Scopelleti's Camaro? Andrew Borodin's GTO? Come on. They get it. Doug Glad gets it. Dave Frieburger gets it. Rob Kinnan gets it.

Keep reminding yourself that they're just stirring the pot to sell mags. Ignore them and don't get all defensive. Resist the urge. Don't email 'em. Don't post, start or otherwise propagate these types of threads about them.

Just do your own thing.


I can only hope people will read that steve....
well put

[harshman]

Well put Steve.

I just looked at all the posts about this one little article and aside from the unit jokes it looked more and more like some of the emails that get passed on to me wanting me to salute, pray or call my congressmen and forward the email on to ten others in a vain attempt to bring prosperity to my little world.

Look I'm just as passionate as the next one of you and sadly I think about my car a bit too much. Hell, if I worked on my car half the time that I spend on this site looking up different ideas my car would be a genuine monster. But on that same note, I feel no need to defend what I am doing to my car and why I am doing it. If a guy has a negative comment about my car or my hobby, please go tell it to someone who really cares and will help him to work it out. But do not bother telling me about it because I absolutely could care less. Until you get the bug and slap your head against the door window at >1g you are uninformed about my hobby and I pity you.

Just like Steve who works at PHR, who has over 3,550 posts, and apparently lots of time on his hands, and most of the rest of them that are in the business know what they are doing and why they do it. Don't sweat it and keep on building the car the way you want to just please keep it safe.

Oh and BTW, check out this mag (http://www.stockcarracing.com/) for some sweet parts (also owned by primememeddddia).

[vanzuuk1]

Harshman referred to what I was talking about, a call to end references to "units" or "members" on this thread. I was talking about the grubworm with a turtleneck statement, its a disturbing image.

Steevo, if he was just stirring the pot, why the clumsy nascar reference? Not saying you are wrong , maybe your just giving him too much credit.

[Steve Chryssos]

My very first words are: "I haven't read the editorial in question"

I was speaking to these types of editorials in general. I guess I have to go buy the magazine--which in itself proves that stirring the pot is effective.

[vanzuuk1]

Steve

Bonzos first post here has a small quote, it has a goofy reference that protouring cars are modeled after early nascar racers.

Your right, it is working, I actually went to the 7 eleven just to buy the friggin magazine. I guess I salivate when the bell rings.

[Bob Johnson]

I drink Bass Ale. Now, is that a good thing or a bad thing? :lol:
you've got class..now is that good or bad?

[Steve1968LS2]

Just like Steve who works at PHR, who has over 3,550 posts, and apparently lots of time on his hands, and most of the rest of them that are in the business know what they are doing and why they do it. Don't sweat it and keep on building the car the way you want to just please keep it safe.

Oh and BTW, check out this mag (http://www.stockcarracing.com/) for some sweet parts (also owned by primememeddddia).

I'm not sure exactly how to take that...

[BonzoHansen]

BonzoHansen][/b]I drink Bass Ale. Now, is that a good thing or a bad thing? :lol:you've got class..now is that good or bad?I could be faking it. But class is all a matter of perspective, isn't it? :p

[Bob Johnson]

I could be faking it. But class is all a matter of perspective, isn't it? :p
sure is..that's why I hang with THE REAL..relatively speaking, I've got class..now put me with a high class MOFO like Howell..another story entirely..unless he's at a BUFFET..hard to be high class when you look like a hog in a trough..

[Bill Howell]

Hey, I got way too much invested in my midsection to just let it dissappear......lol
I heard you were the mascot for Shoneys.....Bob's big boy......or was it big boy Bob? :spank2:

[Bob Johnson]

I auditioned for the Pillsbury job but you beat me out...you must be making big money moonlighting for Michelin too..not counting all the befores you do in the before and after weight loss ads. Yo mama is so proud..got your picture on the cover of the rolling stone..and you're making it big in Dollywood..it's going to be tuff act to follow being on the cover of PHR after that goat. Is it true OSHA made you put a back up alarm on the rear of your jeans?

[Pro-touring towncar]

I had it with Car craft over 20 years ago. I wrote a very derogatory letter about the way they handled the rules for the street machine nationals. Basicly slamming them on the way they handled every thing. I also slammed their golden boy Rick Dobberton. I think in the 20+ years since then I have picked up that rag maybe twice. I don't think that a writing campain to them would do no good. Ignorante idiots like them would know what pro-touring is if it bit them.

Tim

[Bob Johnson]

I had it with Car craft over 20 years ago. I wrote a very derogatory letter about the way they handled the rules for the street machine nationals. Basicly slamming them on the way they handled every thing. I also slammed their golden boy Rick Dobberton. I think in the 20+ years since then I have picked up that rag maybe twice. I don't think that a writing campain to them would do no good. Ignorante idiots like them would know what pro-touring is if it bit them.

Tim
Forrest Gump couldn't have said it better..

[Steve1968LS2]

I'm not sure exactly how to take that...

Actually, on reflection I think that was an insult hurled my way.. but I was wrong.. easy to misread stuff on the interweb

[Damn True]

you've got class..now is that good or bad?



Beats the alternative.

[gchandler]

Actually, on reflection I think that was an insult hurled my way.. but I was wrong.. easy to misread stuff on the interweb

I think that it is simply that your precence on this board is viewed as being "ok" by your employer. You do make posts during the hours that many of us are at work, and one might infer that you too are "at work" during those hours.

When I was employed in the Automotive aftermarket I would spend around 30 minutes to and hour each day tracking Internet discussions of products that my employer produced, as well as, those produced by competitors.

I don't think that this is a dig at you. In fact if anything I would take it as a compliment. The Internet is the future of automotive magazines, they just don't all realize it yet.

www.gr8ride.com (http://www.gr8ride.com) was just poorly implemented, the concepts was a good idea, but the Internet reader demands up to the second information, and does not tolerate the sort of filters placed on editorial that is found in published magazines.


I'm on a tangent now. I will stop.

Oh and the NASCAR look is hardly new, people round my neck of the woods have been doing it for over a decade. :)

[Steve1968LS2]

I think that it is simply that your precence on this board is viewed as being "ok" by your employer. You do make posts during the hours that many of us are at work, and one might infer that you too are "at work" during those hours.

When I was employed in the Automotive aftermarket I would spend around 30 minutes to and hour each day tracking Internet discussions of products that my employer produced, as well as, those produced by competitors.

I don't think that this is a dig at you. In fact if anything I would take it as a compliment. The Internet is the future of automotive magazines, they just don't all realize it yet.


Ahh.. I probably just took it wrong. And yes the internet is the future. Thats why I have been pushing for us to put more videos online of car tests and such.

Since my hobby is the same as my occupation I often work on my off time and take "mental health" breaks during my official work day :)

See.. it's midnight and I'm online.. I need to get a life.. :Alchy:

[Steve1968LS2]

ok.. I have no life so I can sit here and delete posts all night long...

And if you wonder why.. well, there is a point where good natured banter and "poking fun" starts to go sideways and you just know the thread is gonne end up wrapped around a tree.

Let's not let that happen.. this is the interweb, no need to take stuff personally or start battering each other. Remember, we all share the same hobby..

Don't make me start singing Kumbaya...

[Steve1968LS2]

Maybe I wasn't clear.. lol

Hard to tell if you guys are just kidding or actually getting worked up.. either way it plays bad to the crowd..

I have a lock and I'm not afraid to use it.. ok, maybe a little, but not not much :)

[formula]

sorry, I wrote that up earlier, got distracted, and then didn't see what was up till I posted it and the page refreshed.

[Steve1968LS2]

sorry, I wrote that up earlier, got distracted, and then didn't see what was up till I posted it and the page refreshed.

No worries :)

By the way.. dig the Formula.. if only I had a bigger garage.. sigh..

[protour_chevelle]

This is quite the nice quote from a LS1tech member...

beautiful car. i agree, keep those wheels on it, **** the protouring gayness that HOTROD promotes. the only other choice IMO would be gold snowflakes. very cool.

-Matt

[Bill Howell]

This is quite the nice quote from a LS1tech member...


-Matt
Where was that Matt? I missed that comment. Must be an uninformed member, cause we all know where Hot Rod stands with PT.

[Bill Howell]

I auditioned for the Pillsbury job but you beat me out...you must be making big money moonlighting for Michelin too..not counting all the befores you do in the before and after weight loss ads. Yo mama is so proud..got your picture on the cover of the rolling stone..and you're making it big in Dollywood..it's going to be tuff act to follow being on the cover of PHR after that goat. Is it true OSHA made you put a back up alarm on the rear of your jeans?

It has taken me ten years up here in hillbilly land to get on the inside, but I am almost there now. Heck, how many others dream of sitting at the front gate of Dollywood, Dressed in overalls and a straw hat, drinking shine and getting paid for it. People will be paying just to come meet me..... :lmao: :lmao:
When they ask for my autograph, I am going to sign their book as BOB JOHNSON. :bananna2:

[Bob Johnson]

It has taken me ten years up here in hillbilly land to get on the inside, but I am almost there now. Heck, how many others dream of sitting at the front gate of Dollywood, Dressed in overalls and a straw hat, drinking shine and getting paid for it. People will be paying just to come meet me..... :lmao: :lmao:
When they ask for my autograph, I am going to sign their book as BOB JOHNSON. :bananna2:
One impersonator "The REAL" is enough..but if you give me a piece of the action, I'll help you hone your skills. Welcome aboard..the waters fine..got your Billy Bob teeth yet?

[protour_chevelle]

Where was that Matt? I missed that comment. Must be an uninformed member, cause we all know where Hot Rod stands with PT.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=451426&page=2

:machine: :attn:

-Matt

[Bill Howell]

Thanks Matt :cheers:

[protour_chevelle]

Anytime Bill :)

-Matt

[Bob Johnson]

It has taken me ten years up here in hillbilly land to get on the inside, but I am almost there now. Heck, how many others dream of sitting at the front gate of Dollywood, Dressed in overalls and a straw hat, drinking shine and getting paid for it. People will be paying just to come meet me..... :lmao: :lmao:
When they ask for my autograph, I am going to sign their book as BOB JOHNSON. :bananna2:
If I'm going to dream it's going to be me playing with those big ol hooters of Dolly's..you can work the gate...

[douglas]

Any one see the 3rd Gen F-Body that they built at Car Craft nearly 8 years ago? CC got in on it early. Remember when they took the Chevelle to the autocross? Now they are building a '67 Mustang to take on a 2005. Watch for it.
douglas

[shmoov69]

Any one see the 3rd Gen F-Body that they built at Car Craft nearly 8 years ago? CC got in on it early. Remember when they took the Chevelle to the autocross? Now they are building a '67 Mustang to take on a 2005. Watch for it.
douglas
Wouldn't happen to be "Glad" would you?

[camaro608]

have they ever heard of The Mule?

[nitrorocket]

Seems like the "Prostreet" crowd believes that a car that can handle good is not fast or quick. I have yet to run into a pro street that can put me down.... Even with my 17's! I believe pro street cars are far more dangerous for a street car.

Just my .02

[zbugger]

Seems like the "Prostreet" crowd believes that a car that can handle good is not fast or quick. I have yet to run into a pro street that can put me down.... Even with my 17's! I believe pro street cars are far more dangerous for a street car.

Just my .02
That's what a lot of these guys trying to call us out don't realize. We are actually making our cars better street cars. I hate to say it, but this last issue of CarCraft was kinda boring.

[BLWN1]

drinking shine and getting paid for it. :bananna2:


Hmm, I may have to invite myself down one weekend.... only 3-4 hour cruise....

Now how many people have read this thread, went to wally world, and read through the magazine, if they didnt have it in the bathroom already..?

[Jim Nilsen]

I believe the perspective of this whole thing is to understand that we have a Primedia magazine that supports our site and our members. Many here have coverage in PHR every month now and have for many months prior. Some other people might actually think it is now our magazine for the amount of coverage we get.

We don't worry about what 4 wheeler ,stock car, import car,cycle, Nascar or other magazines say about us because we don't read them and if we did we would understand why they don't get it because we can understand that we don't want to offroad our cars or be like the other guys. Remember this is what makes us different too. :hmm:

So you have to understand that to sell magazines to people who don't like what we do they have to say things against us or be totally different from us to make them happy. If you get insulted by it then they got you where they want you, INVOLVED in what they are doing. It's like the lady that is upset because her daughter wasn't allowed in the boyscouts. You would call her a moron for not putting her duaghter in the girlscouts, Right?

So stop worrying , complaining, and reacting to something you can ignore and are not required by law to be a part of. They will warm up to us someday and if they don't it is because there are enough people that don't understand yet what we are doing. This is a trend that will not go away and has been aroung long before it ever had a name. That is why even we have a hard time with a definition of what we are. Hence we are now a community and not just a type of described car movement. You gotta believe the others laugh about us not agreeing on a definition of what we are.

So get your subscription to PHR and get your buddies and others one too and when PHR is bigger than Hotrod and the others we will get the cheaper subscriber price and have more pages to look at :look: :cheers:

Jim Nilsen