10 x 18's on the front of a '69 Camaro with deep dish

[aaroncorvette]

Hi guys

This one is pretty simple.



How do you go about getting a deep dish 10 x 18 wheel on the front of a 69 Camaro?


I want to go 10 x 18 square on my Dad's 69. my question is - do any aftermarket frames reduce the front track to get the deep dish look? Ie like Big Red, I know Big Red is a space frame and i'm happy to go down that route if that's whats needed.

I don't like the shallow offset on the front of 69's and no one seems to do anything about it on pro touring stuff.

The current setup is stock frame with Flaming River R and P, coil overs and wilwoods.

So I need suspension mods anyway, so either a subframe that will reduce the track , someone used to make narrow a-arms but I'm not sure how that screws up the suspension? Or a tube frame front integral with a roll cage?

My Dad has just given me his 69 vette so i said id spend a bit of cash on his Camaro. I've just ordered a TKX to replace the old TKO then front suspension is next.
P.s I'm in England so it can be cost effective to take the car to have fab work done as opposed to buying parts from the US and paying import duty.

Any thoughts anyone?

Thanks

Aaron.

[aaroncorvette]

I guess the question is -

Is there a subframe that narrows the track to fit the same offset wheel front to back?

Is there a way of doing this with off the shelf parts? Would moving the a- arm mounting points inboard 2” be prevented by the engine etc?

I don’t care how drastic the mods need to be. I want that look and there’s a way to do it.

[dhutton]

Easiest solution would be some Anvil wide fenders and inner fenders. I’m not aware of any subframes with a four inch narrowed wms.
https://anvilauto.com/products/1969-...37208351735975

[dhutton]

I don’t think the lip on the front of a Camaro with stock suspension is anywhere close to two inches less than the rear. Where are you getting this from? Wheel offset for a first gen Camaro is +6mm front

[aaroncorvette]

Ok guys so I checked out the ridetech subframe. It accepts a 10 x 18 with a 6.5” backspace. The wheels I have on my 69 vette are 10 x 18 square 5.75 backspace, the plan is to use those until I get the rear end mini rubbed and 4 linked (it already has a 1000hp built 9”).

So we’re 1” too wide either side once I factor in my wilwoods which protrude a little over stock.

Farman apparently sells 1” shorter a- arms but without knowing anyone who has used them I don’t know.

I wonder if you can order a subframe with 1” less track either side?

I might Email Hauser Racing (who built the rear end) and see what they say.

[aaroncorvette]

Camaro, vette, TT’s on vette and ridetech info

[dontlifttoshift]

You're not gonna get there like that. The ridetech subframe also uses corvette hubs and the calipers stick out past the wheel mount surface. That means the pad height needs to be taller on the wheel which removes some of your lip or dish. They offer it with a pin spindle but I would be amazed if the same wheel sizing specs are in play. Go to the ridetech subframe thread and ask Josh.

Fatman is out of business and it was all junk anyways.

The other flaw in your logic is that if you end up with the same track width (outside to outside of your tires in this case) but with less backspacing that you can run the same clearance to the fender lip. You can't.


If you are serious and don't want a car that drives like garbage here is my advice:

1..Buy a DSE X gen 535 universal clip. Splice it in to your stock subframe or build a new one around the DSE clip.

or

2. Buy the wheels you want and clean sheet design a suspension to fit in that envelope.

[JLMounce]

You're not gonna get there like that. The ridetech subframe also uses corvette hubs and the calipers stick out past the wheel mount surface. That means the pad height needs to be taller on the wheel which removes some of your lip or dish. They offer it with a pin spindle but I would be amazed if the same wheel sizing specs are in play. Go to the ridetech subframe thread and ask Josh.

The pin absolutely becomes an issue that the wheel mounting pad has to deal with. You either end up with a thick mounting pad, so that you can run a flat or near flat center cap, or you end up with a really deep center cap, like the 3rd gen Trans Am snowflake wheels had.

From the pictures provided, does the OP already have a set of Torque Thrust wheels that are wanting to be employed? That wheel design is problematic with Corvette style brake systems where the caliper extends past the mounting flange. It does work for most OE style brake systems that use the pin spindle and has a mounting hat that places the calipers inboard of the mounting flange.

I went through all of this when trying to maximize the front dish on my 69 Firebird. There's a reason almost all of these builds have less dish in the front and that's because it's not largely possible to do without a lot of custom fab. The previous recommendation on running wide fenders is probably the best option if the wheels have to be the same offset and the same size and dish. Otherwise, with factory sheet metal and any real amount of lowered stance, most of the wheel width must go inboard of the mounting flange, not outboard.

[dhutton]

I used the Anvil fenders on my 69 Camaro. More or less stock WMS front and rear. Had 10 inch front and 12 inch rear wheels The lips were close but not equal. 295 front and 345 rear with room to spare. I stretched the rear quarters roughly 1.25 inches if I remember right. Baer 6P front brakes on Art Morrison C6 spindles.

[JLMounce]

That's hot.

Factory inner/outer fenders. This is an 18x8.5" with a +13mm offset. 18x9.5" +2 in the back. Factory tubs of course.



Here's what had to be built in order to deal with the pin spindle on a Wilwood 13" FNSL package.

[dontlifttoshift]

Just to clarify my earlier statement. As you noted, you can deal with the spindle pin with a tall or taller center cap and still get some outer wheel lip. With the caliper clearance issue with a hub spindle/upright, the spokes have to move outboard giving up that lip.

[aaroncorvette]

Hi mate. Thanks for the info

I put the 10 x 18’s on the vette as they’re cheap and I can always fit something nicer later on. They’re basically a cheap mock up wheel to see if a deep dish wheel works. So I ordered 2 so that I could try them on the front and rear. I presumed the rears would be fine and the fronts would be the ones that would cause problems if anything. Oddly it’s been the opposite on the vette, the fronts fit great, the rears rub ( my car is really low though ). But the deep dish does look badass and is exactly what I wanted. That’s the look I want on the Camaro, I will get it it’s just working out how hence this thread.
Those TT2 10 x 18’s have a 5.75 backspace, which means a 5 1/4” front space.

The plan for the Camaro is mini tubs and 4 link, but before that I want to decide what’s happening at the front. There’s no compromise here. That size wheel and backspace is going on there. It’s just figuring out how.

At the moment it’s either a tube front end and roll cage, or wide arches.

[aaroncorvette]

I used the Anvil fenders on my 69 Camaro. More or less stock WMS front and rear. Had 10 inch front and 12 inch rear wheels The lips were close but not equal. 295 front and 345 rear with room to spare. I stretched the rear quarters roughly 1.25 inches if I remember right. Baer 6P front brakes on Art Morrison C6 spindles.

Wow! That looks badass. I really like the stock lines of the 69 so I’m torn as to whether I go wide arch. I need to see one in the flesh. Not many wide arch 69’s in Northern Ireland 😭.

- - - Updated - - -

I used the Anvil fenders on my 69 Camaro. More or less stock WMS front and rear. Had 10 inch front and 12 inch rear wheels The lips were close but not equal. 295 front and 345 rear with room to spare. I stretched the rear quarters roughly 1.25 inches if I remember right. Baer 6P front brakes on Art Morrison C6 spindles.

Wow! That looks badass. I really like the stock lines of the 69 so I’m torn as to whether I go wide arch. I need to see one in the flesh. Not many wide arch 69’s in Northern Ireland 😭.

- - - Updated - - -

I used the Anvil fenders on my 69 Camaro. More or less stock WMS front and rear. Had 10 inch front and 12 inch rear wheels The lips were close but not equal. 295 front and 345 rear with room to spare. I stretched the rear quarters roughly 1.25 inches if I remember right. Baer 6P front brakes on Art Morrison C6 spindles.

Wow! That looks badass. I really like the stock lines of the 69 so I’m torn as to whether I go wide arch. I need to see one in the flesh. Not many wide arch 69’s in Northern Ireland 😭.

- - - Updated - - -

I used the Anvil fenders on my 69 Camaro. More or less stock WMS front and rear. Had 10 inch front and 12 inch rear wheels The lips were close but not equal. 295 front and 345 rear with room to spare. I stretched the rear quarters roughly 1.25 inches if I remember right. Baer 6P front brakes on Art Morrison C6 spindles.

Wow! That looks badass. I really like the stock lines of the 69 so I’m torn as to whether I go wide arch. I need to see one in the flesh. Not many wide arch 69’s in Northern Ireland 😭.

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry the pub Wi-Fi sucks. Messing up my messages. Coupled with a tiny iPhone mini is a nightmare. Will amend when I get back on my computer

[aaroncorvette]

Hello. Thanks for your input. I want the car to handle great so I’m not up for bodging anything. I’m surprised none of the aftermarket subframe guys haven’t made a reduced track version, seems like a no brainier to me. I’ll speak with Hauser racing in England and see what they think. They build all the top drag stuff here. They could perhaps build me a tube front end/roll cage with c567 vette suspension?
Or modify an aftermarket frame, or modify my stock frame?

[aaroncorvette]

Cracking looking car 👋. The whole pin/hub thing is new to me so this is very helpful. I’m learning fast.

[aaroncorvette]

This is the dish I want in the front

[dhutton]

I think you don’t see it because the juice is simply not worth the squeeze. Most guys don’t place significant value in deep dish front wheels. At least it’s not something I focus on.

Donny’s suggestion to install the Detroit speed narrow universal front clip is a great one. I used the full width version on my 57 Buick and it’s a well engineered piece imo.

[dontlifttoshift]

.......Because the handling is worse with low offset wheels. Probably a non issue for this application.

Tube Chassis with Corvette parts won't solve the problem problem, you won't be able to get it narrow enough.

[marolf101x]

When you run deep dish and wide wheels in the front you push the outer edge of the tire away from the WMS (dimension between the wheel mount surfaces on the front axle), toward the outer fender lip.

To make the tire/wheel package fit you have two options:
1-leave the front suspension and WMS locations the same and change the bodywork; widen the fenders, modify or remove the inner fenders
2-narrow the WMS

Option #1 works. . .a few companies have made wider fenders and modified inner fenders, but you can only go so far before it starts looking out of proportion with the rear

Option #2 creates more problems.
If you narrow the WMS you have a couple of options
1-leave the inner suspension points where they are and use shorter control arms
2-leave the suspension points and WMS where they are relative to each other and narrow the distance between the frame rails (the creation of a new front clip would allow suspension geometry improvement, but more on that below)

#1; shorter control arms:
-undesirable as it screws with the geometry
-all suspension moves in an arc
-shorter arms makes the arc smaller, so smaller changes in suspension stroke make larger changes in camber change, bump steer, etc
-I prefer to use the longest arms I can fit with the lowest motion ration I can get

#2; narrowing the frame rails:
-typically not an option as you don't have enough clearance between the frame rail and the engine for headers, front drive accessories, steering shafts (assuming the new front clip would use rack and pinion, so no steering box to deal with), etc
-so to solve this problem you move the engine back, creating a whole new set of issues


We could also have a whole conversation about scrub radius and front suspension design theory and why some wheel offsets are more desirable than others.
But that is really for a full-on hardcore autocross/road race car, and not really applicable here.

I'm not trying to talk you into or out of any direction you want to go.
I'm just trying to clarify your options regarding your desire to run wide wheels with deep lips.

[dhutton]

.......Because the handling is worse with low offset wheels. Probably a non issue for this application.

Tube Chassis with Corvette parts won't solve the problem problem, you won't be able to get it narrow enough.

Low offset or high negative offset? I always thought higher positive offset like modern cars was better. So low offset would be better than high negative offset.