AME Frame - Need to relocate steering rack

[67pro-street]

I have a 69 Camaro with the Sport GT AME Frame. This has been a long term project 10+ years and my first time ever biting off something of this magnitude. I have an issue and need advice. When the car was originally mocked up a LS1 was used, now i have a LS2 Stroker motor with a custom intake originally built by DSE for one of their project cars. My frame was also modified at one time by a previous builder and the front suspension was lowered by cutting the frame and moving the front crossmember up.

The issue I face now is that with the different motor, custom intake, and the fact that it is a stroker motor, I am limited at where I can physically place the engine and still use the original steering rack location that AME designed. It seems that I have to move it forward about 5" to clear the crank pulley. I tried to show photos of the tie rods now being angled backwards and I have tried to research how that will ultimately affect my steering, but I can't figure it out. How badly will relocating the steering rack forward in the chassis affect steering? It is still at the same height, just moved forward. Sorry for the crappy pics, I tried to get the best ones I could.

What options do I have if this relocation is absolutely unnacceptable? Is there a different type of steering rack that could be used? The only solution I can come up with is to move the whole engine and transmission back 5.5" so that I can clear my steering rack in the original location. The issue with this is that if I move it back, then the custom intake won't line up with the hole in the hood for the cowl. I spent a lot of money to purchase that intake and it was something I wanted to replicate the moment I saw DSE put it on their project car, so I feel lucky to have been able to purchase that and would like to use it. Same reason why I cant just move the engine upwards, if I do, then I can't use that intake anymore.

This has put my project at a standstill for quite a while, so any help or ideas to get me moving forward again would be greatly appreciated!

[Vimes]

I think you can get there in bits. A small change here and there will add up so I'll throw a few ideas your way and you can use them or not. I'm sure others will point out any problems with my suggestions - and I fully support that Eyeballing the pictures, it looks like you need about 3 inches to get the rack to go under the pulley.

Is that harmonic balancer a 7 inch? If so, ATI sells a 5.5 inch underdrive version without an AC pulley. This would get you .75 inch more clearance. This would also mean possibly adjusting your other accessories, but since the front of the belt shows signs of being chewed on that should be done anyway.

Flat hood or cowl induction? If flat, a cowl induction hood with a little work would get you another 2 inches of clearance, which would allow you to raise the engine by 2 inches. If you already have a cowl hood, the underside looks like it can be cut out to get more clearance. If cut, it'll need bracing.

The rack needs to be in line with the lower control arm to not have bump steer. You can lower the rack, then cut the spindle steer arms off and weld them on by the same amount of distance. My own project is going to require this to be done. Bolt-on spindle steer arms can be bought as well. I've also seen spindles for the Corvette that are made to have the steer arms bolted on, and those can be bought with different steering arms to allow different drops. Pricey though. This might require larger diameter wheels to fit if the spindle steer arms are moved. If moved, you can also shorten them a bit if needed to clear. A shorter steer arm will make for faster steering as well.

If you don't want to do any of the above, you can always go back to a recirculated ball steering system like the car originally came with. It'll fit under there with no problems, it'll just weigh a bit more and not be quite as precise as a rack. The center link would easily fit underneath the damper, and no other changes would be required.

Good luck, let us know what you actually do to correct the problem.

[dhutton]

I was curious so did a little research. I think you will significantly mess up Ackerman moving the rack forward 5 inches. It is a really bad idea imo.

Have you considered undoing the mods and putting it back as designed by AME?

Hopefully Donny will weigh in.

[67pro-street]

Thank you for the responses! Vimes, great ideas there, I will go out and measure what diameter balancer I have. I really like the idea of modifying the underside of the cowl hood, to possibly raise up the inner structure, I will take a look at that too. I did quite a bit of research on this subject, but I’ll be honest there is so much that goes into steering design and geometry that I didn’t fully understand what all the different changes would do, so the feedback helps. Dhutton, going back to the way it came from AME is also on my list of possible fixes, though the builder who originally did it for me is no longer in the area, so I would need to either find someone else to bring it back to original, or try to do it myself. From looking at the pictures of when he did the modification, it seems like he scribed a straight line under the mounting brackets for the upper control arm so that he could keep the bend in the frame rails and then maybe added a 2” x 2” piece of square stock. Then it looks like he must have also taken 2” off the lower cross member to make up for that and to keep the suspension geometry intact.

I think if I use enough bracing and keep the frame from shifting, I should be able to reverse that. Ideally, I would like to contact AME and see if I can purchase a new crossmember and engine mounts so that I know it is dimensionally the same as it came from the factory. I do have the original build sheet for the frame, it was purchased by a custom build shop for someone else’s project and then I acquired the frame via craigslist. The original cost of the entire frame was only $7k back in 2007! I am not 100% sure why he modified the frame the way he did, it was several years ago, but I think he was doing it to try and achieve a more raked stance. I will try to email AME and see if they can help me out with some solutions and then get back to the group.

If this is going to affect my steering, I definitely don’t want to keep it as is, so I will find some sort of solution. Appreciate the help so far!

[67pro-street]

Thank you for the responses! Vimes, great ideas there, I will go out and measure what diameter balancer I have. I really like the idea of modifying the underside of the cowl hood, to possibly raise up the inner structure, I will take a look at that too. I did quite a bit of research on this subject, but I’ll be honest there is so much that goes into steering design and geometry that I didn’t fully understand what all the different changes would do, so the feedback helps. Dhutton, going back to the way it came from AME is also on my list of possible fixes, though the builder who originally did it for me is no longer in the area, so I would need to either find someone else to bring it back to original, or try to do it myself. From looking at the pictures of when he did the modification, it seems like he scribed a straight line under the mounting brackets for the upper control arm so that he could keep the bend in the frame rails and then maybe added a 2” x 2” piece of square stock. Then it looks like he must have also taken 2” off the lower cross member to make up for that and to keep the suspension geometry intact.

I think if I use enough bracing and keep the frame from shifting, I should be able to reverse that. Ideally, I would like to contact AME and see if I can purchase a new crossmember and engine mounts so that I know it is dimensionally the same as it came from the factory. I do have the original build sheet for the frame, it was purchased by a custom build shop for someone else’s project and then I acquired the frame via craigslist. The original cost of the entire frame was only $7k back in 2007! I am not 100% sure why he modified the frame the way he did, it was several years ago, but I think he was doing it to try and achieve a more raked stance. I will try to email AME and see if they can help me out with some solutions and then get back to the group.

If this is going to affect my steering, I definitely don’t want to keep it as is, so I will find some sort of solution. Appreciate the help so far!

[Cdog]

I was curious so did a little research. I think you will significantly mess up Ackerman moving the rack forward 5 inches. It is a really bad idea imo.

Have you considered undoing the mods and putting it back as designed by AME?

Hopefully Donny will weigh in.

I'll start off with I'm an AME dealer and have a lot of experience with these frames.

I would sell off that frame for scrap and start over. Someone Billy Bob'd it beyond fixing. I doubt AME will sell you a new X member. I can't see the tubular supports that connect the X member & UCA supports either. I would have to be sent to AME, installed in their jig, billy bobs removed and go from there. AME doesn't have the C6 control arm jig anymore. It's been converted to their fabricated control arm updated version. I bet you're better off buying new. Not to mention you're not going to have any room to run exhaust under the car with the frame tucked up like that.

If you want to lower a factory AME frame an inch go with -1 uprights & 1/2 body bushings.

And last of all handling. Bump steer and Ackerman is going to be wack.

[dontlifttoshift]

I'll disagree, this isn't beyond fixing but it may beyond their capabilities. I have questions, though.

This looks like a full frame, does it even use body mounts? Genuine question, I am not familiar with AME stuff. Even if you drop the crossmember two inches to get back to "stock" is that enough for the crank pulley and damper to clear the rack? What is ride height like? I would think it would be way too low as it is currently setup and likely not low enough in the rear. Was the trans tunnel raised?

To answer your question, you should not move the rack forward 5".

[dhutton]

Here’s one way to possibly fix it… ��

https://detroitspeed.com/detroit-spe...ocks-032042ds/

[Cdog]

Thank you for the responses! Vimes, great ideas there, I will go out and measure what diameter balancer I have. I really like the idea of modifying the underside of the cowl hood, to possibly raise up the inner structure, I will take a look at that too. I did quite a bit of research on this subject, but I’ll be honest there is so much that goes into steering design and geometry that I didn’t fully understand what all the different changes would do, so the feedback helps. Dhutton, going back to the way it came from AME is also on my list of possible fixes, though the builder who originally did it for me is no longer in the area, so I would need to either find someone else to bring it back to original, or try to do it myself. From looking at the pictures of when he did the modification, it seems like he scribed a straight line under the mounting brackets for the upper control arm so that he could keep the bend in the frame rails and then maybe added a 2” x 2” piece of square stock. Then it looks like he must have also taken 2” off the lower cross member to make up for that and to keep the suspension geometry intact.

I think if I use enough bracing and keep the frame from shifting, I should be able to reverse that. Ideally, I would like to contact AME and see if I can purchase a new crossmember and engine mounts so that I know it is dimensionally the same as it came from the factory. I do have the original build sheet for the frame, it was purchased by a custom build shop for someone else’s project and then I acquired the frame via craigslist. The original cost of the entire frame was only $7k back in 2007! I am not 100% sure why he modified the frame the way he did, it was several years ago, but I think he was doing it to try and achieve a more raked stance. I will try to email AME and see if they can help me out with some solutions and then get back to the group.

If this is going to affect my steering, I definitely don’t want to keep it as is, so I will find some sort of solution. Appreciate the help so far!

When you call AME ask for Scott Randle and let him know Corey Condit sent you. Have pictures ready to send via email to explain the situation

[67pro-street]

Hi all, Thank you for your input and sorry for the delay, I was out of town for the holidays and away from my computer. I have attached a few more photos to give better context. My project is posted on Lat-G, so the progress photos are on there, but I copied a few over to this thread. The photos with the old BMW wheels shows how the car sat before the frame modifications, and then the one with it up on the lift shows the stance post-mods with the actual wheels and tires I will be using. I feel like he did nail the stance and had I had the actual motor and intake I have now for him to use for mock up back then, I don't think I would have ended up in this predicament. The best I can tell is that he cut the top of the frame to life the UCA mounts up by 2", and then cut 2" out of the lower cross member to try and maintain the geometry. I am by no means a suspension expert, but that seems to make sense to me.

I modified the frame to make it a bolt in set up instead of welding in place and then built custom floor plans and transmission tunnel, so the entire floor assembly sits on top of the frame with 1/8" polyurethane in between. The previous photos that shows the front crossmember being cut with the U shape 2x4's in there under the engine was done by myself after I had the new motor and intake. I will need to take some more measurements, but it seems to me right now the easiest fix is to ditch the custom cowl induction air cleaner assembly and that should allow me to raise the engine up far enough to put the steering rack back in the original location. I will go out to the shop this week to get some actual measurements to see if that will do the trick. As much as I would love to use that, it may be a concession I have to make to keep the project moving forward. I have a beefy jig at home that i could put the frame onto and try to restore it back to original, but my appetite isn't very big to get into that much surgery, plus I am not sure that adding the additional two inches back to the lower crossmember will give me the clearance to move the steering rack underneath the oil pan and still be able to use the custom air cleaner assembly.

Cdog, I appreciate you giving me a contact at AME. I will start there first to see what they have to say about potential options and then move forward. I'll add another post once I have spoken with them.