'95 F-150 track ready street beast

[Sbeck09]

It's finally time to kick off my own build thread. It would be a gross understatement to say that I'm excited. Admittedly, I've been a long time lurker here, but only just created an account as I didn't feel I could add any value until now. I want to say that I look forward to seeing all your suggestions and comments as I go. I love creative criticism and feedback.

I am starting with a bone stock 1995 F-150. One owner with only 97,000 miles. But the desert hasn't been kind to the wiring, plastic, or rubber parts. It was passed on the me by an incredible old man that left us in January this year. The truck sat in my driveway further wasting away and no solid offers came so it never sold. As these things do, a wild, alcohol induced conversation started about what could be done. Naturally, all my years lurking here and growing up at the racetrack led me to plan a pretty ambitious build. Somehow my family said "DO IT" and so here we are. Unfortunately this chassis gets exactly ZERO love from anyone outside of the off-road community so I'm on my own.

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There it is not long after it was purchased new. This is the dirt mountain road heading up to Crown King, AZ where our family cabin is. This
is how I got the truck, aside from the terrible clear coat (AZ is mean as hell to paint) .


After seeing the Targa Truck, C10R, and HellBoy, I knew it was time to return to the road course and autocross world and this little Truck would take me there. This was further solidified after a chance encounter with Mark Allen while at a local show creeping on others' builds. He's an awesome guy and I hope to meet many more of you!

So here is the deal: I'm 27 and I was literally born into racing. I've worked at Vorshlag, Stett Performance, and Eurosport(gotta start somewhere) along with doing a few builds for friends. I've never done a build just for me and this is going to challenge everything I think I know. I'm looking to you all to help me along and we can make this thing awesome! For the record I learned about trucks by rebuilding a '69 F100 as a little kid so getting to build a Ford F-series is kinda cool in that sense.

The plan

Engine: Duffee Motorsports is building out the original block. 408 forged stroker kit, big solid roller cam, high flowing heads, Holley 351w Hi-Ram, etc

Chassis: Full independent suspension. Crown Vic IFS and Mark VIII IRS. I'm setting it all up myself. No kit here.

Transmission: Modern Driveline built TKO 600. Mid mounted shifter. Puts power through a mustang clutch and flywheel.

Body: I want to learn composites really bad. These body panels and large and mostly flat, but HEAVY! Things will get cut off and changed regardless.

Suspension: Looks like Ridetech is my only good option now, but I'd like to work with a couple companies I've used for customer builds. Adjustable coil overs are the desire here.

Interior: NRG quick release wheel, Sparco Evo II US seats, G Force cam-loc 6pt harnesses, full custom dash, and full roll cage. I plan to get rowdy and live to embellish the tale.

Electronics: Being young I love technology and I want it all. I threw the Holley catalog at this thing. Full Dominator system (ouch!) including their digital dash. This also converts me over to many GM sensors (GASP! on a Ford?) including a 92mm LS throttle body. But tuning and replacement parts just got WAY more accessible.

Areo: Vented hood, low wing or Nascar style spoiler, deleted bumpers for at least a splitter if not a diffuser too.

I think that about covers it for now. I'll get everything together for an upload to bring you all up to speed. This post is about 2 months behind me. I'll start to point out areas of concern and stuff I can't decide on. Just for a teaser here is what is coming up next...

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-Sean

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Well written! I’m excited to follow along, gotta love the Fords!

[Slick68]

Looking forward to seeing this!

[SonomaZ]

Great intro!
Never been much of a Ford guy but I can definitely appreciate the "dare to be different" aspect and the fact that the truck sub-forum can always use more action.
Other than the occasional modded, drag race Lightning, I've never seen anyone go all out on this platform.
Looking forward to seeing it come together for you.

[Josh@Ridetech]

I like the way you think! Let me know if I can help out at all!

[Sbeck09]

Thanks guys! I'm glad you all like where this is going too.

SonomaZ, you see the same thing I do. Either drag truck or stock. So far many of the major suspension points on the frame measure out very closely to late model F100 specs. I suppose it's just not quite old enough to meet that "filthy cheap" mark most of us like to start our builds with. BTW...I like your build as well. Kinda makes me wish I was making my own frame, but I'm not ready for all that.

Josh, thanks for reaching out. You'll be my first point of contact once all the subframes and arms are mounted and I can get some hard measurements.

OK, let's pick back up where I left off...

So I don't have a garage large enough to accommodate this in depth of a project, but I do have a large covered area on the side of my house. Open air projects aren't really my favorite, but I'm also not too proud to put the entire thing off. Plus we are heading into "winter" here in the desert so I don't really have room to complain.

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By the time I had an area cleaned up and the truck in position this had basically become a daily occurance. I'm not sure why, but I can't think of anything in this world I love more than coming home to boxes. These are the best kind of boxes!

I knew from the get go that foxbody related drive line parts would probably be the safest bet. I called Modern Drive Line and they were awesome to deal with. Made great recommendations and seemed to appreciate what I'm trying to do even if I'm a little nuts. They opened up the TKO 600 to add carbon fiber something. I believe he said it was to do with the synchros. :dunno: I think I should be plenty safe with this since I have no desire for boost or nitrous.

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That's the only photo I grabbed before it all went on a shelf. Oh yeah...that shift arm likely won't work, but it was included. I'm mostly happy I got a white shift ball. As stupid as it may seem, I've wanted a white Hurst shift ball FOREVER. Some dreams are meant to come true!:git: I got a QuickTime bell housing. We all know them and there isn't really another good option. Plus it made adapting to a 351w stupid easy. All ARP hardware with the reverse harness and throwout bearing. They suggested a Tilton 6000 series TOB. I'd never heard of this version before, but I'll say I'm super happy I got it. VERY nice piece.

I had also pretty well firmed up the engine build with Duffee so I was falling behind my desired pace. I ripped the thing apart as fast as I could making notes along the way of things I want to omit or modify for body mounting or positions.

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Hard to remember to take pics when you're working alone and getting your ass kicked by big heavy stuff. Bear in mind that this all happens after a full work day. Thankfully I have a desk job. I'll sleep when I'm dead.

As things went on I did notice one really sweet nugget...

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That is looking over the front suspension at the passenger exhaust manifold. For the record these are heavy and TERRIBLE. What's important is the right of the picture is the front of the truck and that hole in the shock/spring tower is the "axle" centerline. Yes, Ford produced this truck with the entire engine behind the front axle. WIN!!! Still not using the factory mounts, but I shouldn't need to modify the firewall like I see all the C10s do.

At this point it hit me that my cheap ass engine hoist wasn't up to taking the engine and trans out together so I had to stop and divorce the two. Easier said than done. That auto trans is YUUUGE. I don't have any good photos yet.

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As you can see it's still under the truck since I can't get it past the frame rails even with the jack stands at full extension. Might have to wait until all the suspension is out and slide it between the frame rails.

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But I won. And it's a very good thing that I'm just redoing all the wiring and killing all the vacuum actuated crap since it was all half broken anyway. Most of the smog related systems literally just fell apart when I would touch them.

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This is how I delivered the engine. Looks like the only part going back in is the block itself. Everything else will be new and much improved. This was where the budget started it's rapid descent into chaos (I'm learning). My original idea was to bolt on some fresh parts to the top end and hope to get close to 350hp. Well after I annoyed the **** out of Duffee for a couple weeks we decided that I needed forged everything and a solid roller cam with all the supporting parts. Only rule was that it had to be able to run on 91. It will be about 8-10 weeks before I see the results. I told him no rush if he has SEMA stuff to wrap up first. I'm jealous I can't go. I'll be in Vegas that week for my mom's birthday with time to kill. Guess I'll just stand in front of the convention center crying in despair and envy. :crying:

Next was the interior. I debated hard on how original to keep it and after seeing the PCHrods C10, as well as a few well-prepped cars, I couldn't avoid my lust for a good clean dash integrated into the cage. I will look at carbon panels, but aluminum is more likely for now.

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More stuff showed up and I couldn't not do a quick test fit just to gauge seat height and how the quick release wheel would fit. I like it. I would totally daily this setup.

But it still had to come out. All of it. Just haven't been motivated enough to get after the dash and the mess of wiring I know it hides.

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This is pretty much how it still sits. I've been busy the last couple days with house crap. Hoping to get more teardown done. It's like it never ends. I always find more to remove.

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This was a painfully expensive photo to take. I'm soooo excited to try this Holley Dominator system with their intake. Kinda funny to me how I wanted to avoid taking the easy way out and doing an LS swap only to use LS sensors and throttle body. But hey, if it works don't fight it. Nobody makes a decent intake for these motors. This was my one and only good option.

Engine builder has the lower section of the Hi-Ram intake so he can port match it to the heads and open them up a bit. They have a pretty extreme taper as cast.

Now, I'm at the first snags in 2 areas and I need your help.

1, fuel system. I'm thinking about using the original rear tank which is just over 18 gallons. Fuel cells are feeling a little too spendy at the moment. I looked at the Holley drop in 340lph E85 pump setup, but I'm not sure. Need suggestions. And remember that I will drive this in the summer where it can easily be 110 and over 100 at night. Some pumps say they can't be run constantly over 90 degrees (where do they think people live?!). I also need to pick a fuel pressure regulator so I was thinking I'd get the Earl's billet EFI version. Weighing cost vs benefit. Seems spending much more doesn't really do much for me here. Then all AN PTFE lines for feed and return. Will be a full return system. In one rail, crossover, and out the other. Stop me if I'm wrong.

2, accessories and a/c. Air conditioning is not debatable or optional. It's mandatory. I keep coming back to Restomod air since nobody has a kit for this chassis. Theirs seems to be geared toward custom. My hang-up is that it's about $1800 for all I need. I don't know my options beyond this, but the stock unit is all vacuum operated and old. I can't see it working at all now. Along with new A/C I'm finding that a new accessory drive setup would reposition the compressor and alternator in a much better spot on the engine while deleting any smog brackets. Plus it gets me a new compressor and power steering pump. Both of which I want to replace. My question here is, should I spend the extra money on an auto tensioning serpentine kit or just save and get a manual tensioning setup? CVF has both in black at a fair price. But there is about a $600 difference.

Thanks in advance! I'm aiming my sights at the suspension next. It might be a couple weeks until I can update on that since my outlet for my welders is on the other side of the house. I don't mess with household electrical. I got zapped a few years back so I'm wussing out on this. Gonna wait for the handyman. But I have to weld in a brace or two on the frame before I cut out anything so I don't lose alignment.

-Sean

[Sbeck09]

Well I see now that we have a couple sideways photos. I can't figure out how to fix it right now so just do the right thing and turn your head. You'll get the picture (pun intended).

[SonomaZ]

As things went on I did notice one really sweet nugget...

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That is looking over the front suspension at the passenger exhaust manifold. For the record these are heavy and TERRIBLE. What's important is the right of the picture is the front of the truck and that hole in the shock/spring tower is the "axle" centerline. Yes, Ford produced this truck with the entire engine behind the front axle. WIN!!! Still not using the factory mounts, but I shouldn't need to modify the firewall like I see all the C10s do.

-Sean

I cannot begin to tell you how jealous I am of this right here. You're not kidding, major WIN!!!
Just thinking of all that needs to be done to mine to accommodate the engine setback makes me twitch. :rolleyes:
Really love how quickly you're getting after it. Rock on.

[Sbeck09]

Yeah I noticed you've got a ton to do. But I like how its progressing. I was dreading making an entire new tunnel. I'm hoping my header concerns are eased just like you seemed to have more room after setback. I think I'm going to try Foxbody long tubes since there is nothing larger than an 1-5/8" primary specific to this truck.

If it ain't one thing, it's another.

[SSLance]

Subscribed... Nice work so far...

[Sbeck09]

Went out to try and keep momentum on disassembly and noticed something for the first time. Let's play a little game of racetruck trivia.

What do you see odd or not normal about this photo?

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Hint: it's more obvious when you look at the whole picture. You dont have to look to hard to see it.

Go!

[Sbeck09]

Apparently nobody likes racetruck trivia. Noted.

So what you should see in the previous photo is the MASSIVE offset of the engine and transmission to the passenger (right) side of the truck. I verified that everything else (body, chassis, axle) is centered.

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Left side-door jam to tunnel

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Right side-door jam to tunnel

I've built a number of cars over the years that would have roughly 1 inch of offset to the passenger side. This was usually to allow a larger engine to clear things like the brake booster and steering shaft. But I can't see how this 3.5-4 inches is going to help the balance for me.

What would you guys do? I'm thinking I'll try to set everything about 1 inch off-center to the right. Or maybe just center it all up?:pat:

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Looks like the tunnel has more than enough room.

Further progress towards eliminating the entire original fuel system and remaining wiring was made.

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Front tank

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Rear tank

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Pile grows

Combined this truck holds north of 30 gallons. I don't need all that and the font tank is in the way of my rear suspension plans. It's dead to me.

My hope was that I could use the rear tank as it is just over 18 gallons. Wrong. So much for saving money somewhere....and since no one had any bright suggestions when I asked a couple posts ago, I'm gonna make my best guess at a solution.

Plan: I need a bigger fuel pump that can handle E85. Easy. I need at least a little baffling to keep the pump working. Harder than expected. Looks like FI Tech and Aeromotive have the best 20 gallon aluminum fuel cells for the money with a 340lph pump. ATL and Fuel Safe get too expensive for what I'm trying to do here. I'm going to run a full return system with -8an PTFE lines to and from the tank. I figure I'll just weld up a fuel cell cage real quick that bolts in under the bed where the rear tank was.

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Exhibit A

Thoughts? Concerns?:dunno:

I also started in on the cab sheet metal to make space for the cage tubes.

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As you can see I'm now playing the game of precious inches. Trying to buy back some of the room the harness bar will eat up.

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Here is the setup. I couldn't resist trying it all out on the couch. Because race couch. Sexy I know.

I'm still grinding away (see what I did there :naughty:) and I'll keep you guys in the loop. Looking for suggestions in the mean time.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Dealing with brake booster and steering is usually a challenge, so I would offset to passenger for sure. How much? I would try and get some scales to at least help with that decision. I would keep your fuel cell as far forward as you can.

[SSLance]

I'd want the drivetrain pushed to the right just enough to compensate for the drivers weight plus steering wheel, pedals, that kind of stuff that isn't on the right side. Goal being 50/50 left to right weight balance.

[52Muntz]

Dumb question - when the engine is offset like that does it point straight back - so that the driveshaft comes off the transmission at an angle, or is the whole engine/transmission not straight back and at an angle - so the driveshaft comes straight off the transmission and “points” to the diff?

[Yukon Cornelius]

I'd want the drivetrain pushed to the right just enough to compensate for the drivers weight plus steering wheel, pedals, that kind of stuff that isn't on the right side. Goal being 50/50 left to right weight balance.

I was just in the middle of typing something like this post that SSLance posted. Great idea.

- - - Updated - - -


Dumb question - when the engine is offset like that does it point straight back - so that the driveshaft comes off the transmission at an angle, or is the whole engine/transmission not straight back and at an angle - so the driveshaft comes straight off the transmission and “points” to the diff?

You want an identical angle coming from the back of the transmission as you do from the driveshaft to the rear diff.

[Sbeck09]

Dealing with brake booster and steering is usually a challenge, so I would offset to passenger for sure. How much? I would try and get some scales to at least help with that decision. I would keep your fuel cell as far forward as you can.

My thoughts exactly, but I kinda screwed myself on that. The suspension is halfway ripped apart and I'm fabbing up all new stuff based on an entirely different vehicle. That's where my guess of about 1 inch offset came from. I do wish I had access to scales still. And for mounting the cell, I'll set it as close the the irs diff that I can without making it hard to service. That's the beaty of a diff that never really moves. Prolly within ~2 inches. My BMW was so tight back there I had to make a short hex socket to get at the drain plug. I'm smarter than that.:geek:


I'd want the drivetrain pushed to the right just enough to compensate for the drivers weight plus steering wheel, pedals, that kind of stuff that isn't on the right side. Goal being 50/50 left to right weight balance.

It doesn't take much to offset my ~200lbs with maybe another 100 ish lbs off stuff. It's an iron small block with a steel bell housing so it's a heavy drive train. But yet again, this is all going to be a giant guess.


Dumb question - when the engine is offset like that does it point straight back - so that the driveshaft comes off the transmission at an angle, or is the whole engine/transmission not straight back and at an angle - so the driveshaft comes straight off the transmission and “points” to the diff?

Not dumb at all! I literally had the same question when I posted the photo. Unfortunately everything has already been removed. I never thought to measure each point before I took it out.:pat:

I'm guessing they had the engine and trans pointed straight back so you end up with identical driveline angles. Having different angles at each end can easily cause vibration. Looks like they were giving extra room to steering components and the driver area inside. It worked. You aren't cramped at all on the left. All my components are much slimmer and leaner so I think I can bring it back on center a little more.

You all bring up great points. THANK YOU!!:hail: I think I will shoot for 1-1.5 inches of right offset when I make the new mounts. This is me just estimating everything's weight against my own. If it's slightly off I can compensate with a good corner balance. Plus I'm mounting the battery and HVAC on the passenger side so that will help.

BTW...any recommendations, other than my own, on fuel cells without foam? This is new territory for me. Seems a number of companies are vague about the internal design of their cells/tanks.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

How offset is the stock front suspension “sump”? Maybe that is the right amount of offset

[Sbeck09]

How offset is the stock front suspension “sump”? Maybe that is the right amount of offset

The motor mounts measure just over 3 inches to the passenger side.

That doesn't seem like a lot to you?

[Nadornati]

The 79 f100 I am building is offset to the passenger side as well. Fwiw

[Sbeck09]

The 79 f100 I am building is offset to the passenger side as well. Fwiw

Thanks for verifying that! Any idea how much?

[Nadornati]

Here is a pic I can take some measurements

[Sbeck09]

That would be awesome. My motor mounts measured about 3.5 inches difference between the two. Wonder if yours are in that ballpark. Read online today that even the 50's F100s were offset. Wish I could find some kind of technical thing about it from Ford on why exactly they've been doing that for so long. I get the whole weight distribution thing, but they weren't designing cheap farm trucks for balanced performance. haha

[67King]

Not dumb at all! I literally had the same question when I posted the photo. Unfortunately everything has already been removed. I never thought to measure each point before I took it out.:pat:

As long as teh pinion and output shaft are parallel, it doesn't matter. The front and rear U-Joints will be at the same angle, they don't care if it is "sideways" or vertical (which they all are to some degree).

Also, if you haven't procured teh parts, yet, you might look at the U152 Explorer rear setup. It is IRS, as well, but I think the U152 was still on a frame, whereas the MN12 was a subframe. Might make it easier to to install on your truck.

[SSLance]

Remember, some trucks they built were four wheel drive and they probably moved the engine over to make room for front differential and drive shaft.

[Project Bike Truck]

So much YES! to this thread. Subscribed from the title without even reading.

[Sbeck09]

As long as teh pinion and output shaft are parallel, it doesn't matter. The front and rear U-Joints will be at the same angle, they don't care if it is "sideways" or vertical (which they all are to some degree).

Also, if you haven't procured teh parts, yet, you might look at the U152 Explorer rear setup. It is IRS, as well, but I think the U152 was still on a frame, whereas the MN12 was a subframe. Might make it easier to to install on your truck.

Excellent suggestion! I'll do some digging into this. I'm currently hunting for yards to pull parts from so this was well timed!


Remember, some trucks they built were four wheel drive and they probably moved the engine over to make room for front differential and drive shaft.

OMG....I bet that's why! I know the gigantic steering box was right by the oil filter so that's one small reason, but this TTB front suspension was super massive on the 4WD version. I never saw all the stuff routed since my truck was a factory 2WD. Also, the transfer case hung toward the driver side, if I'm not mistaken so the large offset makes sense there too. I'm calling this mystery solved.

So let's say I shoot for 1.5 inches of offset to the passenger side and move on? :drive: You guys are awesome!

[frink84]

excited to see what you do with the truck, love that generation.

[Nadornati]

It's 1.5" over to the passenger side

[Sbeck09]

It's 1.5" over to the passenger side

Damn I had a solid guess! Thanks for checking that.

[Sbeck09]

It's update time!!!

Still boring teardown stuff. Sorry. I've been assured I'll have welding power no later than the 23rd. That's a huge hold up right now. Also on the hunt for a tube bender. Anyone know of a good deal?

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Killed that strengthening panel under the rear window. Bought back right at 1 inch for the harness bar. I'll need it for the leg room with the seats. Sad part is that I'm not even that tall!

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Got my first real look inside the B-pillar. Plan is to hide the sides of the main roll bar hoop so it's less obvious and not so close to my head. TONS of room in there. I'll use gussets to tie the body back in so it stays nice and rigid. Sometimes I think of everything.:naughty: (that's a lie)

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Got tired of taking a metal dust shower so I turned my focus on the dash. There was definitely a reason I was putting this task off. Blind screws on blind bolts on blind clips. I won't lie....I broke a ton of plastic tabs of to rip this out. I highly doubt I could do this procedure without breaking stuff. Glad that's over.

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Now I'm down the last big chunk of insulation and the A/C+heater system. I'll probably conjure up the energy to knock those out over the next couple evenings.

I can't wait to get my welder going out here so I can get all the bracing done and cut out all the stock suspension! I'll tell you what...we are damn close to putting fun parts on. Still stressing about what I'm doing for a fuel tank. Gotta pick that out soon too. Also, settled on what wheels and the wrap colors. You have to stay tuned for that one. It's gonna be pretty wild and it looks like I will have a sponsor for it!:git:

-Sean

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Can’t wait!

[Sbeck09]

Time for a quickie.

Been a TON of discussion on my end and limited work, but that's where we are. Good thing is that final parts decisions are happening and this gonna be good!

As far as work, here you have it:

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So it's all out. I mean ALL. Kind of a relief in many ways. This wasn't my hardest teardown, but I think being solo and doing it all after hours just wore me out. Don't worry though. I'm sticking with it. Gotta keep the pace up. I can already hear that cam thump.

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I get to do some sheetmetal patches there in the firewall. Fun! Not..

And for parts. I know, I know. Less talky more worky.

I caved. I'm ordering a Fuel Safe Enduro 22 gallon cell with all Aeromotive goodies internally. The point was made to me that I shouldn't skimp on fuel safety when I'm putting all this effort into safety everywhere else. I listen...sometimes.

I'm also working on ordering my tube bender and material so I can start on the cage work. Yup. It's that time. I'm nervous and excited all at once. Have to just jump into it though. The rest should be pretty easy.

Also need to drop some hardware at the engine builder so maybe and update on that progress if I can.

Might be a little lull here while I wait on parts and tools, but it will be worth it!

-Sean

[Sbeck09]

As promised I stopped by the engine builder on Friday.

Didn't even bother taking a pic though. The block is fresh out of the cleaner and is completely stripped. He is waiting for the last couple parts to show up before it all goes together. Should be ready for me within a month. ****. I'm behind. Haha.

I tried to take a pic of the bores. Didn't show anything. As expected, this truck was used so lightly that a quick ball hone would put everything in spec if it was a stock rebuild. But come on...I can't have stock anything. Going .020 over and forged 408 kit for sure. We agreed that the main caps will work loose over a couple seasons of hammering tracks and when that happens I should be able to justify the aluminum Dart racing block. Can't stomach adding another $7k for it right now.

Handyman is at the house right now working out my electrical for welders. FINALLY! All these tools and no way to use it....

I began prepping the holes in the firewall for patches. I want to start fresh when I install all the new stuff. I even got some small sheets of steel for free so that will work perfect for this procedure.

And finally, I have decided to install the Gen IV magnum Vintage Air unit for my Air con/heating at the urging of a couple people on here. I love this forum!

More to come soon.

-Sean

[WallaceMFG]

Cool progress so far! Thought I would stop by since you checked mine out.

I've got a 1979 C10 (My Fiance has claimed it already) that will get done up in the future. I'm wanting to do a pro touring build like you are, but the catch is she wants a Duramax/Allison powertrain in it. Not sure how well it will auto x with a 1000lb diesel hanging over the front, but that torque though...

[Sbeck09]

Thanks for sharing the love!

I think a Duramax C10 would be pretty freakin cool! Mark Allen was telling me about a diesel car he built and he is here in the valley.

I say do it! Seems like everyone is jumping on the truck bandwagon. Hell, Ken Block now has the Hoonitruck as of today. The more the merrier.

Btw...if you ever need more engine support, the guy I'm using by me has been awesome so far. I know it's a drive, but good engine guys are hard to find.

[Sbeck09]

Thought you guys might want to laugh with me.

I have been measuring seat position among a few other things so I can make sure everything accounted for when I'm laying out the cage tubes. I know I'll forget something, but it is what it is. Well...the other night I needed to try on my fire suit for something totally unrelated. Somehow I ended up with this gem:

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We've all been here before. Engine noises with your mouth, seeing the cones in front of you.:drive1: JK. It was pretty cool to sit there like this and kinda feel it all. Now I just need stuff to show up to make it real!

So far I'm striking out at the local salvage yards finding parts. Might just have to take the hit and start playing the Ebay game. Power will be in and ready Saturday. The handyman talked me into helping him by crawling around the attic to run power. FML.

-Sean

[Sbeck09]

Wow time flies! The last few weeks have been a blur, but I've been slowly pushing forward on the truck.

First...I got to go to SEMA!!! I've wanted to go for years, but this was the first time I ever made it. It was awesome. Here is some proof:

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Full carbon/Kevlar GT350. I need a full carbon car in my life.

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What a stance! The fit and finish was next level. Definitely not what I'm building here, but I'd totally daily this.

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Of course I went by to visit PCHRods. Unfortunately they had a little unplanned medical visit so I missed them, but man this is a great car. Stole a couple pics for ideas to use myself.

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Had to see the Hoonitruck. I am kinda biased. It makes me want to just build a full tube chassis. But I'm not trying to go that far this time.

Spoke with TONS of vendors and got some killer deals and ideas. Couldn't have been better timed. I got a fantastic hookup from CVF on my front serpentine/accessories set and placed a full custom order with Vintage Air. Big thanks to both companies for letting me ask silly questions and touch everything. I really hope I can get my truck invited in next year to show off some of these products! :1st:

Something that I was going to hide and surprise everyone with, but has now kinda fallen apart was that I tried to work with QA1. They unveiled a complete F100 front suspension system that I was thinking I could lightly modify to work.

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Looks great right? Well a 30 minute call with Chuck after the show brought to light some roadblocks on my end. My truck has crazy curved contours on the frame rails that makes a bolt-in solution tough even with me modifying the brackets.

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It's hard to catch in pics, but I hope you can see there. I may still try their crossmember, but I'm already drawing up my own design for this chassis. Not something I planned for, but a crown vic swap won't be quite up to what I have in mind here. More to come on that in the next couple weeks.

On the other hand, QA1's new MOD shocks are pretty stinking awesome! I remember all the times I've pulled shocks to work on them and being able to change valving on the car without pulling springs or anything is impressive. I'm strongly considering these for my suspension regardless.

Spoke to the engine builder today. Scat has my crank on backorder (yay) so we have to wait. Probably doesn't help having SEMA and PRI so close together. Kinda works out though since I'm on the hunt for a complete Mark VIII rear suspension now. If I can get that done I might feel less stressed about the front suspension for a minute.

I also got the first permanent part installed this evening...

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We are officially manual tranny bound now! Haha. It's a small win, but it shows that we've turned the corner toward building from tearing down.

Tube bender shipped today. Ordered a hardline bend/flare kit that should be here any day. Wiring connectors have been trickling in as I prep for the big push to fire after the engine arrives. We're moving along. It's painfully slow feeling on my end, but that's what we love about project cars, right? :hammer:

-Sean

[DrFraZZy]

Jump over to www.nloc.net, plenty of information on 1993-1995 lightning f150. There is a guy over there working on a crown vic swap into his 1994 f150. Here is the url to partial of his truck build. http://www.nloc.net/vbforum/showthread.php/229749-Crown-Vic-IFS-Swap

[Sbeck09]

Jump over to www.nloc.net, plenty of information on 1993-1995 lightning f150. There is a guy over there working on a crown vic swap into his 1994 f150. Here is the url to partial of his truck build. http://www.nloc.net/vbforum/showthread.php/229749-Crown-Vic-IFS-Swap

Thanks so much for finding this! I'll have to follow along so I can see what he does for the final install. I know from a bronco build I found that it will fit, but not as well as the older trucks. He appears to have pretty high attention to detail so I'm curious what he does in the end.

At the same time, reading through his issues with the crazy track width and trying to overcome it is exactly why I'm starting to question if that setup will work for me. He can get away with it because of drag skinnies, but I'll be needing to fit at at least a 315 up front. He also pointed out that there isn't much wheel travel and adjustable coil overs don't fit well. These are 2 areas that make or break lap times for me.

I hate to seem so negative towards this swap. I'm really not. For most it's a killer setup that's pretty straight forward to install at home. I'm pushing much further than the average cruiser. This is exactly why I've been stressing this part so much lately. My front suspension setup will make or break the entire truck when I get it rolling.

[Frank ZX]

This is a cool build. My truck is a 68 but from my knowledge the chassis are similar.
The CV frontend is a good low budget choice but I feel the chassis needs to be boxed in.
I think the driveline is offset for steering box clearance.
I centered my driveline which helped get my driveshaft operating angles equal.
I'm excited about my new chassis. It's a No Limit Engineering chassis. I should have went that route from the beginning.
I cant wait to see more progress on your truck!

[Sbeck09]

Thanks! I appreciate you checking it out. I've been kinda living vicariously through yours as I had a '69 years ago. God I miss that thing. You're doing all the things I always wanted to do. That's what lead me to building this truck.

I agree with you on the CV front end, but you'd know better than I would. I'll still box my frame for strength no matter what.

I think you're right about the driveline offset. I'm considering centering mine too since I'm changing the location of everything (battery, vintage air, fuel cell, etc.). I'll set a 3 degree pinion angle.

Rob makes gorgeous chassis and I'm sure your truck will be on rails after it all comes together. A part of me wishes I was building a whole frame from scratch or buying one, but that is way more time than I want to wait for this thing to race, and my budget is already crushed so stock frame rails it is. Maybe I'll do that if my bottom end lets go in a year or two.

I've got some great parts progress and updates coming here in a couple days! The UPS and FedEx guys know me by name now. Haha

[Frank ZX]

You have the right mindset. I've updated my truck with better shocks, brakes, etc along the way. My truck was a fairly new build, maybe 1.5 years since I got it on the road.
Me personally..I've wasted alot of money making changes in a short time. That's just me.
I should have bought a No Limit chassis from the start. It would have saved me money. Again, just me.
You will be very happy with the CV front and boxed chassis. Square everything up. It makes all the difference in the world.

[ProjectSideOiler]

Cool build! I have known Brian D. for nearly 30 yrs He started his shop in a corner of my garage with a Seat & Guide Machine and a Flow Bench. He did the machine work earlier this year on my 540" Twin Turbo Boss9.

I would have had a pipe bender I simply no longer use.

Looks like you need a Steam Cleaner/Pressure Washer too!

I am only 20 min from Brian's Shop

[Sbeck09]

Cool build! I have known Brian D. for nearly 30 yrs He started his shop in a corner of my garage with a Seat & Guide Machine and a Flow Bench. He did the machine work earlier this year on my 540" Twin Turbo Boss9.

I would have had a pipe bender I simply no longer use.

Looks like you need a Steam Cleaner/Pressure Washer too!

I am only 20 min from Brian's Shop

Wow what a small world! I'm sure Brian will end up doing more motors for me in the future. He has been awesome to deal with. Maybe I need to work out of the corner of your garage. haha. Seems to have been good luck.

I'm like 10 minutes down the street from him and that's only due to all the traffic lights.

I actually have a pressure washer, but a steam cleaner sure would be nice. I hit the truck with it recently and it helped a ton. I actually need to update this thread with a couple things.

[Sbeck09]

This update took a little longer to come about than I hoped, but obtaining parts has proved to be slow going. I think I make at least 1 phone call a day right now hunting stuff down.:hammer: Annoyingly the truck really doesn't look like I've touched it. I've been doing some welding on the firewall to patch up holes, but I just realized that I haven't taken many pics of that.

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This is my process of patching. I use welding magnets to hold up scrap pieces from the inside so I can trace an outline with a sharpie (fabricator's best friend). Then I just cut it out and use panel clamps to hold it flush. Of course I make sure to burn through 50 times so it looks like I was having a seizure while welding.:machine:

The best part right now is that everyday is like freaking Christmas already due to all the boxes!

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Plus I've leveraged SEMA deals and black Friday sales to add tools to the arsenal. Some are mandatory and some are more about convenience, but when I look at my credit card statement they are all 100% required. Haha.

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If you've never seen this bender or heard of Rouge Fabrication that's a shame. They make awesome fab tools like this thing for usually much less than other companies. A lot of the crawler guys love this for bending 2" tube so I figure it will handle my 1.75" stuff with ease. I just need to build a real cart for it.

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Picked this puppy up on a coupon from Harbor Freight (keep your china comments to yourself). Then I bought the little table for it and made the stand with some casters. I'm only at like $300 as it sits for a metal bandsaw with a 6" throat. It's already been handy.

And the most important update of all....I got a DEAL on this 1995 Mark VIII rear subframe. I couldn't believe it when the girl told me $175! I am swapping to cobra hubs, bearings, and brakes. I'll add 3.55 gears and probably TracLoc. I'm open to suggestions for LSD units. Also, why does nobody seem to make replacement bushings!? I found one place and it's almost $500 for poly! F that. Maybe I'll go throw Delrin in my buddy's lathe later and make my own. For now I'll get going with what's there.

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Little test fit with the ATV jack. It almost looks like it was made for it. I need to go pickup some 1/4" plate and borrow my neighbor's plasma cutter so I can get it installed.

I might have made a deal for the parts I need to start on my custom front suspension. No it's not the CV stuff anymore. It will pretty much be my design. I'll update after I get something.

Still no word on the crank for the motor yet. I love waiting for backorders. I think I can go ahead and make my motor and trans mounts with an empty block so at least that will be done. HUGE shoutout to CVF Racing. They made a killer discount offer for a Wraptor kit. It's here and it's sexy as hell! But you all have to wait to see it when the motor gets home.

-Sean

[WallaceMFG]

I'm jealous you made it to SEMA this year, I wasn't able to this year due to outside circumstances. My dad still went and said it was as good as ever. Definitely going next year.

That IRS setup has me getting excited. I've been flip flopping between doing a torque arm or an IRS setup on my Rustang. I know the torque arm is superior for auto crossing, but the IRS is just cool, and the nice ride would make the wife happy. If only I could find one for as cheap as you got yours, I'd be set. Definitely the downside of Yuma, not as much good stuff on Craigslist. I usually have to talk my dad or brother into getting things for me when I find them on CL up there lol.

And last comment, my personal favorite sharpies for working with are those metallic silver ones. They're almost more like a paint pen than a sharpie, they work super good on metal. Might try one out when your current one wears out.

Keep the progress coming!

[Sbeck09]

Of all the years I worked for performance shops, it took until now when I work in tech sales to wrangle a pass to get in SEMA. Worth it. I'm hoping one of these vendors will welcome this truck into their booth in 2019 (Ahem, Holley! I've spent a ****load with you guys...). That way I can go again!

And IRS is always the answer. I was debating that or Watt's link and I just like IRS more. Plus it really does package better on a lowered vehicle since your entire axle isn't wanting to come through the floor. And I would argue that the IRS is better for autocross since it's easier to keep all tires on the ground. Grip is everything. Funny thing is...I found this deal on craigslist, but it was at a salvage yard. She just quoted me a price right from their "book". Even better, they removed and loaded it at no additional charge. Now that is service!

Agreed on the silver Sharpie. I keep forgetting to buy more. But hey...what's a visit to the store if you don't forget stuff?

Btw...I'm soooo jealous that you're focused on getting the suspension right and not ordering material to fab everything like me. I wanna drive so freaking bad! During break-in and just to make sure everything is good I'm going to drive the truck to work a few days. Should be funny to show up in a suit surrounded by a roll cage and rattling the windows with my big cam.

[Jaymzz]

Looking good! I have been looking at tube benders and will have to give Rogue fabrication a call Monday.

[Frank ZX]

I really like the idea of IRS but I'm afraid I wouldn't get it right. I think the length of the arms go hand in hand with wheelbase, track width, and spring rate.
I really know nothing about IRS other than it usually works well on factory cars.
I cant wait to see how it performs!

[Sbeck09]

Looking good! I have been looking at tube benders and will have to give Rogue fabrication a call Monday.

Glad to help. I also bought their Versa Notcher. I've always used the JD notcher in the past, but I like the design of the Rogue unit and it was easy to get them to box it all up together. Food for thought. And they were super cool on the phone. Fellow enthusiasts.


I really like the idea of IRS but I'm afraid I wouldn't get it right. I think the length of the arms go hand in hand with wheelbase, track width, and spring rate.
I really know nothing about IRS other than it usually works well on factory cars.
I cant wait to see how it performs!

It can get pretty complicated for sure. With this unit, it's proven to work well in multiple chassis, including trucks, and all the pivot points/widths are similar to what I'll have up front. With any suspension like this you get more control over the movement with longer arms. That's why you see purpose built cars, like F1, with the arms nearly meeting in the center of the chassis even though they have very limited travel. Even though these aren't super long it will give me a ton of control over the suspension movement. But it is hard for me to explain it through typing like this. It makes sense in my head (doesn't everything).

Also, I dropped a deposit with the guy yesterday for my used suspension parts the front. Yes, used. There is a reason for this which I'll explain later. Just be happy and excited. I am. :)

[Sbeck09]

As promised, I have procured some more parts. So let's play a game again. Hit me with a guess of what car you think this suspension is from:

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This should be good.

Also started on the sheet metal patches on the firewall. I knew I was not excited about doing this for a reason.

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Funny thing is that the welding wasn't too bad. I'd like to be able to turn my MIG welder down a little more, but it works ok. No, the fun part was as I was tacking away and started hearing a hissing noise. After a couple minutes it got the better of me and I walked over to find that my regulator committed suicide and leaked half my new tank out. Yay. Luckily Harbor Freight is open on Sunday's (practically my church lately) and carries a decent regulator. So as you can see I got some holes done. I'll grind it all after I'm done welding.

I'm researching deals on brakes right now (ouch), but I can't divulge more or it will ruin our guessing game for the front. That should be decided and ordered by the end of this week.

aaannnnnnddddd GO!

[Frank ZX]

As promised, I have procured some more parts. So let's play a game again. Hit me with a guess of what car you think this suspension is from:

159094

This should be good.

Also started on the sheet metal patches on the firewall. I knew I was not excited about doing this for a reason.

159095

Funny thing is that the welding wasn't too bad. I'd like to be able to turn my MIG welder down a little more, but it works ok. No, the fun part was as I was tacking away and started hearing a hissing noise. After a couple minutes it got the better of me and I walked over to find that my regulator committed suicide and leaked half my new tank out. Yay. Luckily Harbor Freight is open on Sunday's (practically my church lately) and carries a decent regulator. So as you can see I got some holes done. I'll grind it all after I'm done welding.

I'm researching deals on brakes right now (ouch), but I can't divulge more or it will ruin our guessing game for the front. That should be decided and ordered by the end of this week.

aaannnnnnddddd GO!

No idea on the suspension.
Brakes, I was running GT500front rotors and C5 calipers. I made a bracket. On the rear but I never finished them, Freestyle front rotors and I had the center hole machined to fit the axle registers. I was going to use CV front calipers on the rear. The issue is it's all heavy.

[frink84]

As promised, I have procured some more parts. So let's play a game again. Hit me with a guess of what car you think this suspension is from:

S197 mustang

[Sbeck09]

The issue is it's all heavy.

OEM stuff usually is. To a certain point, mass in the brakes, specifically the rotors, is great for heat absorption. You probably already knew that. I'm trying to find a happy medium of cost vs effectiveness for the first season out. I don't think I'll risk outrunning my brakes until I'm able to get chassis and suspension really dialed and happy.


S197 mustang

Damn you're good! Spot on. The trick here is that I'm not building a strut type suspension like it originally was. I'm converting to upper control arms. S197 spindles got me the 5x4.5 pattern with a monster amount of parts support from FRPP and the aftermarket. Using the heart of the OEM subframe was a cheap way to set my lower pickup points without much engineering on my part.

Before I'm committed by welding all the brackets up, would any of you have objections or suggestions for alternatives? Bear in mind that this was to avoid spending $4,000+ on a IFS system that may or may not work with this frame. Nobody makes an off-the-shelf option.

[frink84]

Damn you're good! Spot on. The trick here is that I'm not building a strut type suspension like it originally was. I'm converting to upper control arms. S197 spindles got me the 5x4.5 pattern with a monster amount of parts support from FRPP and the aftermarket. Using the heart of the OEM subframe was a cheap way to set my lower pickup points without much engineering on my part.

Before I'm committed by welding all the brackets up, would any of you have objections or suggestions for alternatives? Bear in mind that this was to avoid spending $4,000+ on a IFS system that may or may not work with this frame. Nobody makes an off-the-shelf option.

I used to have a S197 GT and spent a LOT of time in the front wheelhouse. The car ended up with aftermarket ball joints, tie rods, and GT500 brakes before I sold it. Good platform to start with for your plans!

[Sbeck09]

I used to have a S197 GT and spent a LOT of time in the front wheelhouse. The car ended up with aftermarket ball joints, tie rods, and GT500 brakes before I sold it. Good platform to start with for your plans!

Then this is going to look somewhat familiar to you as I get it together. I've decided on factory 14" Brembos (GT500/Boss 302) for the front and 12" Cobra IRS rotors with the Mark VIII rear calipers in the rear. Initially I'll try to use the original brake master, but it may not be quite enough to push all these bigger pistons without a major leg workout (I skip leg day).

If any one is wanting to question the upper control arm idea on a strut type spindle, it's good enough for Factory Five and they have a lot more on the line than me. We used to race late model S197s at 3800+ lbs on 315 Hoosier A7s all the way around with down force. I think my 3400lb (a guy can dream) truck on 200tw 315s should be fine if I design it right.

Those of you already running: I'm thinking a matching coilover at all 4 corners with different spring rates. 12 inch ride height with roughly 4 inches of travel. I see QA1 and Ridetech offer similar single adjustables. Any input on those or other options? I want simple, but effective with the option to bolt in triple adjustables later. Triples are more than double the cost which is too much right now.

[frink84]

Then this is going to look somewhat familiar to you as I get it together. I've decided on factory 14" Brembos (GT500/Boss 302) for the front and 12" Cobra IRS rotors with the Mark VIII rear calipers in the rear. Initially I'll try to use the original brake master, but it may not be quite enough to push all these bigger pistons without a major leg workout (I skip leg day).

those brakes will be absolutely killer. on my s197 they were the best brakes i've ever felt! SO MUCH stopping power

[Sbeck09]

I need some input from you guys again.

Tonight I want to finally get the chassis totally level so I can hopefully get the suspension sub frames in this weekend. At least close to in. It's sitting on 4 heavy duty jack stands and is close, but not perfect enough. I was thinking I'd shove little steel shims on top of the jack stands to get it perfect and then tack them with the welder so it can't move.

Outside of a chassis table (hopefully one day I'll get one), what do you guys suggest for being stable while modifying the frame?

[Sbeck09]

So I stayed true to my plans and worked on the truck most of the weekend. I actually feel like I was productive and got stuff done.

For leveling I opted to make the bed sides level front to rear as the cab would follow. Then I put 3ft long levels across the frame rails for side to side. It was an annoying process on a floor that has a weird slope and this frame looking like rolling hills. But I got it. Didn't grab any pics. I was too glad to be done with that.

I ran down to borrow my neighbor's plasma cutter. I can't figure out why I don't own one yet other than feeling cheap there. I can honestly say that this job was 1000% easier having one. An angle grinder would have made this miserable. It's already enough work by myself. So I burned in a tube to hold the frame rails steady to start. Then I tore into that cross member. I've wanted to cut this thing since I got the motor out. Felt good. My god this thing is HEAVY! I cut it into chunks to make it easier to manage and save my toes.

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Success! Then I could test fit that Mustang subframe. Let me say this...if someone ever asks if they should start with a piece like this or just build from scratch, I'm saying scratch. Looking back that is what I should have done, but I'm this far and money is spent to I'm pushing through. After measuring, I needed to raise the sub frame up to get my ride height lower.

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So I started trimming down with the plasma and grinder.

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Fit #2

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Fit #3

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I think this is about where I want it. It looks scarier than it is. I'll plate it in once I verify everything is in perfect alignment. Should be plenty strong. Usually I don't like to NOT bolt this stuff in, but if it ever needs to be replaced I'll just build a new one myself. This should work great for a while at least.

As I'm going I am also fitting the rear. I don't typically like to bounce back and forth like this, but doing so here allows me to make sure that both ends have similar final right heights and good arm angles. This **** takes forever!

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So you can see that I notched the cross brace on the frame. It might still need to just be removed all together. It still has to go up into the frame another 3 inches or so. I'll be welding the IRS sub frame in permanently too. It's super strong and I haven't even added braces yet. Plus the aluminum arms will fail way before this steel does. Nobody makes bushings anymore and I don't want to spend a ton of time making them. The stock stuff is stupid soft.

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I'm hunting on craigslist for some factory 18" wheels for cheap. I want to make sure everything looks good with it in there before final welding. I also removed the IRS brakes so I can get the new FRPP hubs and bearings pressed in. Ideally I want to set this down on some cheap wheels/tires this week. I'll put a rod in place of each shock. There is a plan in motion there but you'll have to stay tuned to see.

Guys, I'm SUPER pumped that I'm this far now. After motor/trans mounts it will be mostly little stuff before test firing. Oh, bad ish news on the motor. Scat said my crank is back-ordered until mid January. So no motor until probably close to the end of that month. I'll stay plenty busy in the mean time. Once headers arrive I'll gather up an empty block to make those mounts.

And thanks for getting us over 3,000 views!

-Sean

[Project Bike Truck]

I need some input from you guys again.

Tonight I want to finally get the chassis totally level so I can hopefully get the suspension sub frames in this weekend. At least close to in. It's sitting on 4 heavy duty jack stands and is close, but not perfect enough. I was thinking I'd shove little steel shims on top of the jack stands to get it perfect and then tack them with the welder so it can't move.

Outside of a chassis table (hopefully one day I'll get one), what do you guys suggest for being stable while modifying the frame?

Hey if you check out my build in the early stages I made stands in 8 or so places and welded them to the body. I used a digital level on about every surface I could level off of. I then cut the metal to match the level of my frame and my sloped floor. the car is within .05 degree of level on the entire car. that's as close as could get with a car that had been on the road since 63 and had a hack restoration.

I love this build keep it up.

[Sbeck09]

Thanks for that! And thanks for following along. Is there a particular level that you use? I'm glad you brought it up as I've been meaning to grab a digital angle finder.

I like you're build btw. I'll go back and look closer at how you got it setup.

[Sbeck09]

Ok everyone. I really want some input here. There is no right or wrong answer.

I'm so torn. I had a productive call with my dad earlier about fitting this S197 K-memeber. His solution was just build my own. Still use the spindles and rack that I have now, but all the rest would be made by yours truly. His logic was that the tubular K-member swap on every generation of mustang is very popular for a reason. It's shown to be lighter and stronger. He feels it would be better fit and stronger plus look cleaner for my purposes. I'm at the point where I haven't welded anything in yet. If I'm gonna change, now is a good time.

Don't pass this boys. Drop your thoughts. I need ya.

[SSLance]

Hey Sean...have you given any more thought into getting a copy of Performance Trends and messing with it? I would think it would be a big help in getting all of the steering geometry optimized if you do decide to start from scratch.

[Project Bike Truck]

Ok everyone. I really want some input here. There is no right or wrong answer.

I'm so torn. I had a productive call with my dad earlier about fitting this S197 K-memeber. His solution was just build my own. Still use the spindles and rack that I have now, but all the rest would be made by yours truly. His logic was that the tubular K-member swap on every generation of mustang is very popular for a reason. It's shown to be lighter and stronger. He feels it would be better fit and stronger plus look cleaner for my purposes. I'm at the point where I haven't welded anything in yet. If I'm gonna change, now is a good time.

Don't pass this boys. Drop your thoughts. I need ya.

I am a big fan of building cool stuff yourself and making stuff work the way you want. If you see my build I am also a big fan of modifying other peoples stuff and making it work. That being said i would make your own and use the aformentioned parts and make it work for you, it would be pretty trick and stll use off the shelf parts. Start cutting!

[Sbeck09]

Hey Sean...have you given any more thought into getting a copy of Performance Trends and messing with it? I would think it would be a big help in getting all of the steering geometry optimized if you do decide to start from scratch.

Yes it's been on my mind since we talked. This is a crazy week of course, but next week I'm on vacation so I plan to dig into it more. Thanks for putting that in front of me!


I am a big fan of building cool stuff yourself and making stuff work the way you want. If you see my build I am also a big fan of modifying other peoples stuff and making it work. That being said i would make your own and use the aformentioned parts and make it work for you, it would be pretty trick and stll use off the shelf parts. Start cutting!

I'm really learning to like your thinking. Haha. It would seem to keep the wear components easy to source and repair just like I want. Maybe I'll make a PVC model for mock up just to see how it would all fit together for cheap. Any tips/pointers in this area? I liked your mock-up wheel stands btw.

I was looking last night and I really dig the design of the Griggs Racing GR40 setup for S197s. I think I'll use a number of his ideas if I really do this. Keep the input coming!

[Project Bike Truck]

Yes it's been on my mind since we talked. This is a crazy week of course, but next week I'm on vacation so I plan to dig into it more. Thanks for putting that in front of me!



I'm really learning to like your thinking. Haha. It would seem to keep the wear components easy to source and repair just like I want. Maybe I'll make a PVC model for mock up just to see how it would all fit together for cheap. Any tips/pointers in this area? I liked your mock-up wheel stands btw.

I was looking last night and I really dig the design of the Griggs Racing GR40 setup for S197s. I think I'll use a number of his ideas if I really do this. Keep the input coming!

If making a mock-up helps you then do it. there are some things I like about adapting other stuff to your project. but making your own can be stronger or take into account things they didnt. Are you going for massive set back? Setting pinion angle? custom mounts? Steering interferance and so on and so on.

[Sbeck09]

If making a mock-up helps you then do it. there are some things I like about adapting other stuff to your project. but making your own can be stronger or take into account things they didnt. Are you going for massive set back? Setting pinion angle? custom mounts? Steering interferance and so on and so on.

I am a very visual person and I've done most of my fabrication by eye over the years. I'm learning to better utilize computer programs and more accurate measuring tools though. In this instance I know that every measurement is critical to functionality.

As for the goals, the engine is already totally behind the axle from the factory so I'll be maintaining that with all new mounts to the frame. The biggest hurdle I seem to have to cross here is how low I want the end result. I'm shooting for around C10R low. Only catch is that I'm not doing a custom frame like they did. Basically this K-member only has to set my suspension points and span between the frame rails. I'm taking careful time to make sure that everything functions properly (bump steer, roll center, camber/caster, etc.). That's all why my original idea was the use this oem piece, but I never expected the have to hack it apart so much. So here we are.

Is that what you were asking?

[Project Bike Truck]

I am a very visual person and I've done most of my fabrication by eye over the years. I'm learning to better utilize computer programs and more accurate measuring tools though. In this instance I know that every measurement is critical to functionality.

As for the goals, the engine is already totally behind the axle from the factory so I'll be maintaining that with all new mounts to the frame. The biggest hurdle I seem to have to cross here is how low I want the end result. I'm shooting for around C10R low. Only catch is that I'm not doing a custom frame like they did. Basically this K-member only has to set my suspension points and span between the frame rails. I'm taking careful time to make sure that everything functions properly (bump steer, roll center, camber/caster, etc.). That's all why my original idea was the use this oem piece, but I never expected the have to hack it apart so much. So here we are.

Is that what you were asking?

Yep that’s what I was asking. If you have goon that far (farther than I ever have) then no reason to not make it yourself.

Your mission has been decided no go forward and start making sparks!

[Sbeck09]

Well plan on me getting going right after the new year. I'm flying up to MD to visit family for a couple weeks, but I will order parts during that time so I'm ready when I return!

I'm thinking 1.5" x .120 wall DOM for the main K-member and 1.25" x .120 wall DOM for the control arms. Heims to attach arms to the frame and uniballs instead of ball joints. Thoughts? Suggestions?

[SRD art]

Pretty wicked project going on here. Looking forward to more!

[Project Bike Truck]

Well plan on me getting going right after the new year. I'm flying up to MD to visit family for a couple weeks, but I will order parts during that time so I'm ready when I return!

I'm thinking 1.5" x .120 wall DOM for the main K-member and 1.25" x .120 wall DOM for the control arms. Heims to attach arms to the frame and uniballs instead of ball joints. Thoughts? Suggestions?

Tube size for the arms I’m not sure. But hell yes uniballs and Heims all day long. My frame is all .120 wall 2x3. So I’m sure the stronger round tube would be fine.

[Sbeck09]

Pretty wicked project going on here. Looking forward to more!

Thanks! Keep an eye out. As you can see this is about to get good.


Tube size for the arms I’m not sure. But hell yes uniballs and Heims all day long. My frame is all .120 wall 2x3. So I’m sure the stronger round tube would be fine.

I'm sure I'll over build it like I usually do, but at least it won't fail that way.

Anyone have suggestions for where to get the best price for decent quality heims? I was looking at using Rough Stuff Specialties since they have sets with the tube inserts and spacers that don't break the bank. I'm always down to support vendors that support the forums though.

[SSLance]

Have you been to Super Duty HQ there in Chandler yet? It's like a builders paradise...for that kind of stuff...

[Project Bike Truck]

Thanks! Keep an eye out. As you can see this is about to get good.



I'm sure I'll over build it like I usually do, but at least it won't fail that way.

Anyone have suggestions for where to get the best price for decent quality heims? I was looking at using Rough Stuff Specialties since they have sets with the tube inserts and spacers that don't break the bank. I'm always down to support vendors that support the forums though.

I feel like I'm blowing up your page.

I used the Ruff Stuff stuff. I was recommended by some off-road guys. they have season's of racing use and still good. A good friend of mine is Dave he does a show called Dirt every day or something like that. he said that he has 7 years on his wheeler\daily driver type thing. I also know that higher end stuff is more reliable and the thought of it failing scares me. but hell off roaders put some serious abuse on thier stuff.

Are you in AZ? I have family in Chandler and Mesa and travel out there frequently.

[Sbeck09]

Have you been to Super Duty HQ there in Chandler yet? It's like a builders paradise...for that kind of stuff...

Never even heard of them. I should have known there would be a 4x4 place locally with this stuff. If they stock heims and inserts, I'll be there real soon. Thanks! I should just start texting these questions directly to you. Haha.

[Sbeck09]

Happy new year! Hope you all enjoyed some family time. I know I did for the first 10 minutes. Haha.

I kept my word and ordered parts for the front suspension build. I am feeling really antsy to get going and see how this goes.

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This is tabs, heims, uniballs, and all the spacers. Plus I got those rubber boots like the prerunners use to help keep sand from prematurely wearing out heims. Figured it would be a good idea for me too. They were cheap. I'll be using grade 8 bolts in all of it. Lower bolts will be 5/8" and upper 1/2". Should be overbuilt enough.:hammer:

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This is what a $1300 gamble on made-to-order headers looks like. These are for a 90's foxbody with a 351w swap and stock everything else. Nobody makes large primary stainless headers for this truck. I am guessing that the little mustang has less room to work with making me good to go. We shall see. Yes I can make my own, but if you've ever done that before you will understand why I'm trying to avoid it. I spec'd 1-7/8" primaries with 3" collectors in 100% 304 stainless. They are produced by American Racing only if you call.

Also found the new uniform shirt for those of us here in the truck section...

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Ignore my ugly mug. You know you all like the shirt too. Plus this is an F150 build...

Question for you fellow fabricators. I want to just use DOM steel tubing for my control arms, but the heim inserts and uniball sleeves are chromoly. I hate to admit it, but I didn't really want to tig these. Everything I can find says I'm good to mig weld steel to chomoly because they are such similar metals (more nickle and heat treated for chomoly). Any experiences to contradict this? I'm heading over to pick up the tubing tomorrow. :help:

For the record...I prefer steel to chromoly on something like my control arms as steel being softer makes it more forgiving. Chromoly is more likely to break next to a weld. For the unknowns and shock of street driving I see this is a slightly safer idea.

[Frank ZX]

Your on the right track. I like your thoughts and ideas. Gonna be a awesome truck!

[Sbeck09]

I feel like I'm blowing up your page.

I used the Ruff Stuff stuff. I was recommended by some off-road guys. they have season's of racing use and still good. A good friend of mine is Dave he does a show called Dirt every day or something like that. he said that he has 7 years on his wheeler\daily driver type thing. I also know that higher end stuff is more reliable and the thought of it failing scares me. but hell off roaders put some serious abuse on thier stuff.

Are you in AZ? I have family in Chandler and Mesa and travel out there frequently.

Sorry for the delay in responding. I must have missed this with traveling. I'm glad you are keeping up and having input. I do the same thing to Frank on his build.

This is the second round of Ruff Stuff parts I've got. They easily have the best custom 351w motor mounts. Hard to argue with their prices too. And it's funny you bring up DED. I love watching that show on YouTube. I feel like I'd get along well with Fred.

Yeah I looked at what the cost difference was to go to like FK or QA1 rod ends and the cost was about 3x. Not to mention they don't offer sets with jam nut and insert so that would make more effort for me to insure that I ordered correctly. Your thought that off-road guys are good testers of durability was my thought and Ruff Stuff gets solid reviews. I guess I'll find out. Even if I need to replace stuff each season that's still not bad.

I'm in north Phoenix. My best friend lives in Chandler so I kinda know the area. Feel free to give a shout if you'd like sometime when you are out here. I'm also expecting to regularly attend events in CA when this truck is done too.

- - - Updated - - -


Your on the right track. I like your thoughts and ideas. Gonna be a awesome truck!

Thanks! I'm trying to overthink it now before money is spent. Hopefully I'll make it to an event your way when it's done.

[Jaymzz]

Can't wait to see update pictures! I love the shirt also.

[Sbeck09]

I went and picked up 1.5 and 1.25 DOM tubing along with a big sheet of 1/4" steel so I can get this front suspension done. I'm so over thinking about it. Haha. :hammer:

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I found some PVC and fittings around the house so I decided to do a VERY rough layout of what I had in mind. What do you guys think of the idea? Ignore the exact angles and lengths. I'm a visual guy so I had to just see something there.

That leads me to needing some input. Again. If I bend the main cross bar of this new subframe I loose about 3" of width on each side. So my lower control arm mounts would be long. This seems weaker in my mind. I was just thinking that I could miter it all together instead and use gussets at the joints. Wouldn't that be more than strong enough for a 3600 ish pound truck on sticky 315s? :help!:

Throw in your ideas here. I'm putting something together this weekend darn it! Right or wrong. Haha. I need to keep moving so I can get motor and tranny mounts done before the end of the month.

[Project Bike Truck]

Personally, I would rather see one tube bent and longer tabes than a miter cut and joined part.

That being said if you had a longer tab and were worried about it moving add some gussets, reinforcements, and support tubes. I roll back to my off-road days and spend my time looking at trophy trucks and class 1 cars. if you have access to a plasma table or just a cutter you could fab some super strong crossmember out of 3/16 MS and incorperate the pick ups for your suspension. it wouldnt move at all. the frame will move before that will.

Just because someone has not done it on a autox or road car build doesn't mean it can't be done.

Just my few pennies in thoughts.

[Sbeck09]

I don't disagree at all that 1 bent tube would be nicer than 3 mitered together. Maybe I'm just being lazy, but I spent 2 hours trying to do the math on the bends last night and I still didn't get it right. Haha.

To your point about the tabs, maybe I should bend it narrow and make longer tabs from that. Having some kind of structure to measure from would be MUCH easier. That's the real hurdle for me. There isn't really any place to accurately measure without anything between the frame rails right now.

The thought about making it out of plate like a TT did start to creep into my mind too, but I think the tubing will be easier in the end. Probably cheaper too. Would be nice to have all the pivot points built in though.

Any tips on measuring this better?

[Project Bike Truck]

I don't disagree at all that 1 bent tube would be nicer than 3 mitered together. Maybe I'm just being lazy, but I spent 2 hours trying to do the math on the bends last night and I still didn't get it right. Haha.

To your point about the tabs, maybe I should bend it narrow and make longer tabs from that. Having some kind of structure to measure from would be MUCH easier. That's the real hurdle for me. There isn't really any place to accurately measure without anything between the frame rails right now.

The thought about making it out of plate like a TT did start to creep into my mind too, but I think the tubing will be easier in the end. Probably cheaper too. Would be nice to have all the pivot points built in though.

Any tips on measuring this better?

Disclaimer I am not a trained professional

What are you trying to locate?

I would think you could tack a couple tubes across the frame, use the existing holes and cross measure to find the center and use that as a reference point.
And measure 20 times. And then check a couple more times.

I suffer from analysis paralysis.

[Sbeck09]

That's exactly what I am suffering from right now. I know enough that if I screw up the measurements here it will ruin the handling and ability to properly align. Good idea to tack in some perfectly straight tubes to locate off of. That would probably be just enough for me to feel good about the measurements.

Thanks!!!

[Project Bike Truck]

That's exactly what I am suffering from right now. I know enough that if I screw up the measurements here it will ruin the handling and ability to properly align. Good idea to tack in some perfectly straight tubes to locate off of. That would probably be just enough for me to feel good about the measurements.

Thanks!!!

So if I recall industry standards was something like a 1/8” I am not okay with that much. But measurements of my car were way more out of square than that. It’s stock and never crashed.

The holes on your frame and great location point to start with.

[Sbeck09]

Fascinating. I've never seen any kind of numbers like that so thanks for sharing! I'm definitely trying to keep it all tighter than that, but will all the adjustments I'm building in I'll probably be fine. If not I guess I'll build it all again. Haha.

I found 3 different holes that match on each frame rail. That should be enough to get me going. Thanks to you, the new plan is the use two layers of steel plate to form a main crossmember with a tube on each side running back to tie it in. I'll try to keep this updated as I go along this weekend. I should make way more sense when I post photos.

[Project Bike Truck]

Fascinating. I've never seen any kind of numbers like that so thanks for sharing! I'm definitely trying to keep it all tighter than that, but will all the adjustments I'm building in I'll probably be fine. If not I guess I'll build it all again. Haha.

I found 3 different holes that match on each frame rail. That should be enough to get me going. Thanks to you, the new plan is the use two layers of steel plate to form a main crossmember with a tube on each side running back to tie it in. I'll try to keep this updated as I go along this weekend. I should make way more sense when I post photos.

You can use the body mount holes if they are in the same place as well.

[SSLance]

The front right lower control arm mount on my car was 3/16" up on my car when I blue printed all the pivot points on it. Ron showed on Percormanve Trends how much that changed how each lower control arm moved on different arcs in compression. I fixed it bit also made many other changes at the same time so cant say exactly how much difference that one correction made.

I also commensurate with the difficultly in making measurements on a blank slate. I had the same difficulties when trying to place the sway bar end link tabs on my lower control arms in a way to prevent bind thru full travel range. Took me two trys to get them right.

[Sbeck09]

You can use the body mount holes if they are in the same place as well.

Good idea. I believe the front cab mounts are identical according to the OEM spec sheet. I'll double check.


I also commensurate with the difficultly in making measurements on a blank slate. I had the same difficulties when trying to place the sway bar end link tabs on my lower control arms in a way to prevent bind thru full travel range. Took me two trys to get them right.

That may very well be what I end up doing. I couldn't even make good use of that program without measurements to plug yet. I figure I'll build the main structure this weekend and plug in a few numbers in based on that. Hopefully I'm not totally screwing the geometry. Haha. I'm taking idea from Griggs racing and Factory Five among others.

[Sbeck09]

I feel like today's progress is minimal given the amount of hours that it took, but at least I am executing on a plan.:yeah:

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Thanks for the idea for adding a piece of metal across. I had this extra 1 inch angle iron that was perfectly straight. A few solid tacks later and it made a perfect center line. Can't believe this didn't cross my mind before.:pat: SOLID tip.

Funny thing about finding the center line on this truck...the factory beams aren't perfectly in line so instead I am measuring the center on the wheel opening as best I can. If it's off a few mm in the end I'll use some of the adjustments to make it right without killing my geometry.

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This is the final cardboard template for the main cross member. It's 2 inches in width all the way around and cut from a sheet of 1/4" steel. There will actually be 2 of these that sandwich the front lower control arm joints. I'll add thinner steel plate in between and then box it all in. Should be stupid strong. Just like a Trophy Truck. :naughty:

I got it all marked in silver sharpie and borrowed my neighbor's plasma cutter, but a rain storm blew in from CA so I had to pack it up for the day (ugh). Hopefully I can get this cut tomorrow. I'm excited to see it in place...FINALLY.

Thank you guys for your input. It's been invaluable.

[Sbeck09]

Today I actually feel accomplished. By the time I got moving this morning the rain had cleared and it was a really nice day. So I went right outside and fired up the plasma. :yeah:

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Here is the two main parts of the cross member just after grinding the slag off. Ignore the little triangle things. That's just for a centering line I made. I'll be cutting those off as soon as it's actually in the truck. I also realized right after that I needed bolts so I went and grabbed Grade 8 zinc coated bolts. Didn't realize how expensive big bolts are.

I forgot to take a picture of when I bolted them together and ground the edges to exactly the same. It's not that exciting. Grinding a 1/2" of steel wore out my hand. :crying:

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I had a hell of a time drilling those holes perfectly, but when I clamped this in it was all worth it. Feels AMAZING seeing this in place. I'll tack it in and start boxing together hopefully tomorrow. I ran out of time today. Remember that I'm adding material inside and around so that gap won't be there and it won't just be hollow. I can't wait to see the end product! What do you guys think? Btw, the bottom of this is exactly 1" higher than the lowest point on the frame and I should have miles of room to the oil plan.

Final boxing and lower control arms to come next! And if any of you get the terrible idea to try building an OBS Ford too, I am keeping all my templates. So yes, I could reproduce this setup again if it really works.:naughty:

[Project Bike Truck]

Today I actually feel accomplished. By the time I got moving this morning the rain had cleared and it was a really nice day. So I went right outside and fired up the plasma. :yeah:

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Here is the two main parts of the cross member just after grinding the slag off. Ignore the little triangle things. That's just for a centering line I made. I'll be cutting those off as soon as it's actually in the truck. I also realized right after that I needed bolts so I went and grabbed Grade 8 zinc coated bolts. Didn't realize how expensive big bolts are.

I forgot to take a picture of when I bolted them together and ground the edges to exactly the same. It's not that exciting. Grinding a 1/2" of steel wore out my hand. :crying:

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I had a hell of a time drilling those holes perfectly, but when I clamped this in it was all worth it. Feels AMAZING seeing this in place. I'll tack it in and start boxing together hopefully tomorrow. I ran out of time today. Remember that I'm adding material inside and around so that gap won't be there and it won't just be hollow. I can't wait to see the end product! What do you guys think? Btw, the bottom of this is exactly 1" higher than the lowest point on the frame and I should have miles of room to the oil plan.

Final boxing and lower control arms to come next! And if any of you get the terrible idea to try building an OBS Ford too, I am keeping all my templates. So yes, I could reproduce this setup again if it really works.:naughty:

I’ll say this much 1/4 plate you will be able to smash through just about anything and it won’t move.

Are you using something thinner for the boxing part?

Are you boxing the frame rails?

[Sbeck09]

Yes and yes. The boxing plate is wayyyy thinner. I'll measure it when I cut some.

With a low ride height and street driving I know there is a very good risk of hitting something. In my former BMW track car, I had to replace a bent sub frame thanks to a fuel station storage tank cap that was not down all the way. Seriously. Not a happy day. And that car wasn't slammed either. That's why I'm not worried about the few extra pounds for the additional rigidity. Plus these are soft, flexible frames so I'm trying to help reduce that.

Is this even close to what you were expecting when you suggested this method?

[Project Bike Truck]

Yes and yes. The boxing plate is wayyyy thinner. I'll measure it when I cut some.

With a low ride height and street driving I know there is a very good risk of hitting something. In my former BMW track car, I had to replace a bent sub frame thanks to a fuel station storage tank cap that was not down all the way. Seriously. Not a happy day. And that car wasn't slammed either. That's why I'm not worried about the few extra pounds for the additional rigidity. Plus these are soft, flexible frames so I'm trying to help reduce that.

Is this even close to what you were expecting when you suggested this method?

Yep!
When I do plate stuff I drop the filler piece inset 3/8's to allow for welding and such. I would (not a pro) think that you should box the hell out of the frame and weld it in sections and slowly to prevent warping. That crossmember is going to make it very stiff and right after it I (again not a pro) would thing the frame will flex like crazy.

have I said how stoked I am on this build!

[Sbeck09]

I was going to bevel all the edges so I can grind it smooth after welding and make it look like one piece without making the joints weak. And I agree that I need to box the frame in sections. I figured that would be easier anyway since it's not just a straight rail anyway so it kinda works out.

I'm going to also add an X-brace in the middle once I mock up the motor/tans mounts. That should help kill the bulk of the excessive flex left. Plus the roll cage will help.

Bad news was delivered by the engine builder earlier....Scat pushed my crank back order out another month. So now no crank until mid February. Annoying, but there isn't a good alternative and I have plenty to do anyway. I'll just try to prep everything else so I can drop it in and wire.

[Sbeck09]

Well I had to wait all week to get more time to work on this front suspension, but I made sure I got stuff done today. It's really starting to come together.

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This is the main part of the lower control arm for each side. I'm missing pieces from QA1 due to a back-order still, but they should get here this week. Then I can finish the other half of the lowers and make the whole upper arm for each side. I'm hoping this is way overbuilt. Certainly looks the part.

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Here was the steering rack going in. Took me a while to position it right and get the mounts lined up, but that's kinda how all this suspension has gone. Measure, move, measure, move a little more, repeat 50x. Takes longer to measure where everything goes than it does for me to make the mounts.

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Here you can see the beefy tabs that hold the rack and the 1/8" plate that I formed into a pocket for the lower heims. I'm really happy with how this is all going. I'll leave everything tacked until it's all 100% together. Then I'll disassemble, finish weld, and paint all of it. I have come to really enjoy taking it all apart at that point because you always notice where something is hard to remove so it can be redesigned then. I want this to be super simple to replace pieces while laying in a parking lot if I have to. Perfect example is that bolt. It hit the rack before it comes out so I already flipped it around.

The only real issue that popped up was I tried to shorten each control arm slightly to shrink the track width since the S197 mustang is wide. I might not have enough adjustment in the tie rods for a 1/2" on each side. Worst case I'll make slightly longer arms. What do you guys think?

[JayinMI]

What do you guys think?

I think I'm waaay overthinking rebuilding the A-pillar inner structure on my S10. lol

Seriously, Seeing the progress some of you guys are making on way more complicated (and important)
parts of your builds makes me want to get out in the garage (once it is over 32 degrees.) lol

Could you switch to different spindles, something that isn't as wide, and still use the S197 parts?
Like Fox or SN95? Would they allow you to use the S197 brakes? I'm not a Mustang guy, so I have no idea.

Jay

[Sbeck09]

Progress. What a great word you used there. I think I'm going to redo my lower control arms today. 1 step forward and 2 steps back.

Funny you bring up a different 'stang. I read an interview with a guy from Griggs racing talking about how they found the SN95 spindles to be stronger and the SN95 steering rack to be better in general. Had I found this before I bought S197 parts I would have gone that route regardless. Hindsight is 20/20. I'm not sure that chasing those parts down at this point is worth it for me. On top of that I'm not totally sure that it is really any more narrow, but I'm not standing here measuring either.

For brakes, no, I don't believe any of the parts cross over without special brackets. There is probably a way though.

Don't sweat spending time to make the body right. I can afford to spend extra time here since I started with an AZ truck. We don't know what anything beyond surface rust looks like. Haha. And don't forget that I still have to do the rear and the entire interior, wiring, bracing.....jesus this list isn't shrinking. And to think that I still expect to start it up in March.

[WallaceMFG]

SN95 steering racks are pretty easy to come by, same with the spindles. They were available from 94-04, so lots to choose from. The nice part of SN95 rack is that the inner & outer tie rods can be swapped for Fox Body parts that are narrower. So if SN95 was still too wide for you, Fox could be used. I have more info if you need it on this subject.

Spindles are different for 94 & 95, 96-04 are all the same and easy to find. Lots of brake kits are readily available. I got SN95 spindles for $40 each for my Fox from a salvage yard.

Easy way to get a 03-04 Cobra rack:
http://www.svtperformance.com/threads/terminator-steering-rack-how-to-get-it.680429/

Just some food for thought. Progress looks good!

[Sbeck09]

Kick ass info man! Thanks for making me consider doing that now. Haha. I'll do some more digging into any quantifiable benefits. Obviously I'll update you guys either way. I do like the idea of being able to use the Fox tie rods to narrow.

The Mark VIII IRS is about 62" hub to hub and the S197 came out to almost 65". Seems like a really big difference to me. I was hoping to have my wheel offsets more similar than that if not the same. Otherwise I wouldn't even give it much more thought.

Would you guys really care that much about this?

[Sbeck09]

I didn't really get a ton done today. Definitely nowhere near what I planned when I woke up, but house stuff sometimes has to get done. Can't play race care builder all the time. :drive1:

First thing I did was remake my main lower control arms:

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But I'm much happier with the results

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So now I have beyond adequate movement available in every joint. Plus I should now have enough adjustment every where to get the alignment right when that time comes.

The last thing I really did was remove the bed. Thanks to a few guys on here I did it by myself using the engine hoist. I forgot to snap a photo so all you guys get is the results.

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I just power washed the frame and cleaned my work area after this. House stuff took over and so hopefully I can attack the rear end in the evenings this week. I'd love to see it hanging in there asap! And of course I now need to measure everything better and see if the switch to SN95 stuff is worth the work. Better now than later though.:hmm:

[Sbeck09]

Change of plans. Something VERY awesome being announced within about a week. You are all to blame but in a great way. Front suspension is staying wide for a reason now.

Anyone want to buy a perfect Mark VIII IRS with new mustang hubs and bearings? :evil:

[Project Bike Truck]

Change of plans. Something VERY awesome being announced within about a week. You are all to blame but in a great way. Front suspension is staying wide for a reason now.

Anyone want to buy a perfect Mark VIII IRS with new mustang hubs and bearings? :evil:

Dude, what is it? Send it to my Insta on the down low!

I had 14 days off over Christmas and 4 days off this weekend and I have been hijacked by the house, family, and ADHD big time. I remade my lower links and reamed the lower link bolt holes. I feel like im not moving forward enough and then when I do I feel like im rushing. I have a timeline that has come and gone so many times, but as my uncles health starts to get worse i feel the pressure to get it running and driving. we get a bonus in march and im gunning to get my engine and transmission then.

Just rambling here.

[Sbeck09]

Yeah I'm similar in that I have set timelines for when I want things to happen. I look at it like goal setting. I'll do everything I can to make it happen before that time, but worst case I know I did everything I could. I think the pressure a date helps keep us at it for so long

Don't worry about rambling. I do it too. Haha.

Luckily March will be here before we know it and you probably still have lots of other things to do just like me while I wait on my engine. Gotta love the "Hurry up and wait" process.

[Sbeck09]

It's now been a week and I finally have an update for you all just like I said I would.

Scored a crazy deal on some 18x10 Roush wheels with decent tires. These are genuine and in amazing shape. The old guy that I bought these from has 23 cars. 7 of them were classic Corvettes in some form of restoration. He does it purely for a hobby. Gotta love the people you meet through the car world. No, these aren't the wheels I plan to run in the end, but they fit decent and will be great for now.

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Had to try one out just to see...

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What you all really want to see though.....say hello to my new (to me) 2015 mustang IRS. This is from a Track Pack (PP1) car so it includes 3.73 gears, 13" brakes, and a Torsen T2R limited slip unit with beefier diff housing. I'll take it all apart after I'm done making sparks with the install so I can clean it, paint it, and install all new bushings.

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I went back and forth on this idea for a few days before pulling the trigger. The main tipping points for me compared to the Mark VIII was it being stronger, tons of parts availability, and includes components (like large brakes) that I would have to buy for much more to add on. I'll still have some money in new bushings, but still makes more sense to me. Plus it is about 65" hub to hub so that means it will work better with my wide front end. And yes...I have to remake the front lower arms for a third time. 3rd time is the charm, right? :hand:

Here it is just lifted up into roughly the right position (how did anyone ever work without and engine hoist?!). I'll need to notch the frame about 2.5" for it to fit at the correct ride height. Plasma cutter will make that go quickly. It's being welded in rather than making brackets to bolt in like original. Feel free to ask why if you don't understand.

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All in all I'm chugging along slowly. Hopefully this weekend I can wrap up 90% of the suspension fabrication and set it down for the first time. I'm anxious to see if all my measurements resulted in the right stance. :fingersx:

[DrFraZZy]

Nice, I am liking where this is going.

I am definitely looking forward to this process. It is something I will like to do to my 2002 lightning. I am thinking of swapping in OBS f150 body or 1979 body. We will see how things go. I will eventually make my own thread on this link.

There is a guy that did expedition irs and convert the 6 lugs to 5 lugs on a newer f150 body obviously but this may give you ideas.


https://www.lightningrodder.com/forum/159-special-build-section/380601-building-laguna-edition.html

[Sbeck09]

Yeah that was another option that was presented to me early on. Once again this gets into the whole thing with needing to install it and then convert hubs, find decent brakes, etc. For someone building a cruiser or something like that, those systems would be great. I'm always on the hunt to have the best I can do or afford at that time. Call me crazy, but I only paid $750 for this complete 2015 setup. How do you pass that up?

Thanks for following. I can't wait to get it in. I'm sitting at work right now thinking about it.

[frink84]

That's an absolutely badass new rear end setup!

I like those Roush wheels, even though it sounds like they are just for mock-up. I hear they are heavy suckers though.

[Sbeck09]

Thanks! I'm pumped seeing it here.

So funny enough these wheels weren't as heavy as I expected. Just by feel, I would say they are a few lbs heavier than some of the 18x10 wheels I've been around, but not horrible. I'll probably use these for basic around town stuff if they don't fit like crap. They may work really well with the now wider hubs. Or I can use them for drift tires. Oops....I've said too much...

[WallaceMFG]

Cool news! I've never looked at the S550 IRS very much to see how difficult it is to swap. But since you're doing a clean sheet install that is irrelevant. Should be cool when done!

[Sbeck09]

Cool news! I've never looked at the S550 IRS very much to see how difficult it is to swap. But since you're doing a clean sheet install that is irrelevant. Should be cool when done!

I gotta say after looking at it, the layout seems way easier to swap into various chassis. Certainly looks like it works better for mine. The mounts are slightly wider, the layout is more square, and the front mount ears aren't as low.


I REALLY do appreciate your input. It's looking into the SN95 stuff you brought up that made me think about the rear end too. I believe this wider setup will be better in the end.

[frink84]

I believe this wider setup will be better in the end.

you know what they say...
160915

[Sbeck09]

Hahaha. Awesome. That way I can make it #hellaflush

160916

[Sbeck09]

Somehow had some time to work on the IRS install tonight. It's not welded but it's about 95% ready to permanently install.

160937

160938

I do have some concerns about my ride height measurements so I'm planning to set the truck down to actual ride height tomorrow evening and see if I'm happy before going further. Goal is about 5" between the lowest point on the frame and the ground.

[Sbeck09]

Man I'm going to spoil you guys with these mid-week updates. Haha.

First off, BIG thanks to jonesbs9 on here. He texted me some great info this morning to help with the IRS install since he's already done it successfully.

This evening's task was to drop the entire truck down and level it at ride height. That was.....interesting. Aside from the crazy running back an forth from side to side to gradually lower the jack stands (yay for working solo), I ended up actually dropping the truck on the ground. Scared the hell out of me at the time. I guess a jack stand got kicked sideways and fell. Luckily nothing broke and it was already halfway down. Sorry I didn't get pics. I was focused on picking it back up.

Here is where it ended up. Bear in mind that this rear sub frame is sitting 2.5" too low. I had my suspicions and jonesbs9 told me that it would seem like it would be setting too high in the frame, but it would really be right. He knew his ****. By my original measurements, this should have been acceptable. No big deal.

160955

The entire point of doing this was to find issues like this:

160956

Somewhere I didn't quite measure right and you can see that my lower control arm is angled up. This will royally screw my roll center so I'll probably just cut the tacks on the cross member and shave about 1/2" off the top to raise it. At least the steering rack will have more ground clearance this way.

160957

MOAR LOW! I'm 5'10" for reference. Lowest point on the frame to the ground is 6.5". I think this makes it manageable around town but low enough to handle great. Time will tell.

[Project Bike Truck]

This is legit!

The Ranchero is 6 5/8 from the bottom of the rocker from all my math with the shocks in the right part of the stroke and lower arms level.

Congrats on the milestone!

[Sbeck09]

Thanks man. I was going to go lower, but it's amazing how much more work an additional inch would be from here. Plus, after seeing what a little less than 6.5" looks like, I'm not sure street driving lower would be fun. My BMW was about 5" to the rocker and I had to take it easy with parking lots and speed bumps. Lance is working with me to have my shocks built to sit perfectly in the stroke. I need to get him length numbers first.

As much as it's a milestone, I'm kind of annoyed at myself for having to redo parts. I try to measure everything 10x so this doesn't happen, but better now than later.

The plan for this weekend is finish the rear install, fix my front roll center issue, and complete all 4 front control arms. Wish me luck!

[jonesbs9]

[QUOTE=Sbeck09;1290291]Man I'm going to spoil you guys with these mid-week updates. Haha.

First off, BIG thanks to jonesbs9 on here. He texted me some great info this morning to help with the IRS install since he's already done it successfully.

This evening's task was to drop the entire truck down and level it at ride height. That was.....interesting. Aside from the crazy running back an forth from side to side to gradually lower the jack stands (yay for working solo), I ended up actually dropping the truck on the ground. Scared the hell out of me at the time. I guess a jack stand got kicked sideways and fell. Luckily nothing broke and it was already halfway down. Sorry I didn't get pics. I was focused on picking it back up.

Here is where it ended up. Bear in mind that this rear sub frame is sitting 2.5" too low. I had my suspicions and jonesbs9 told me that it would seem like it would be setting too high in the frame, but it would really be right. He knew his ****. By my original measurements, this should have been acceptable. No big deal.

You will like it!! I'm so glad I went this route...Its like it was made for these trucks.. need anything, let me know

[Sbeck09]

This project is the biggest flippin emotional roller coaster. And yes, I'm being dramatic. Deal with it. Haha.

Last night I jumped right on the rear suspension install since I knew I could tack it up in an evening. I spent over an hour measuring and tweaking to try and make it perfect. Only the alignment shop will tell if I did a good job. Had to throw on the tires too and see what we are working with. Hell. Yeah. Brother. I think it looks badass already.

161006

Of course I need to build shock mounts, finish weld, and plate it in so it's stronger, but at least it supports itself. Why can't the front be this easy?! :help:

Which leads me to how I wasted a day working on the truck today. Not only do I have to make a 3rd set of lower control arms, but I also had to raise the entire front cross member. The angle gauge showed that the hub side was 2 degrees higher so I cut 1.25" off the top of my cross member. It's so fun making your own suspension on uneven ground....not. For the record, this thing was not nearly as heavy as I expected.

161007

Fast forward an hour and I got it back in. I stood back and felt proud. Then I decided to throw on a fender so I could snap a pic for you guys and show off how great it looked. Only I never got the pic because I discovered the crossmember needed to be moved back almost 2 inches. Yeah....The tire was way off center in the wheel well. ****. I have no idea how I screwed the axle center-line up that bad.

161008

So 3rd times the charm remains the theme. I moved it back and tacked it in. If you look at earlier photos you will easily see that I moved it. Oh yeah...you can also see where I'm adding the internal reinforcement. This is where I stopped tonight. I needed a break.

161009

Not what I wanted to show you guys today. I wanted to finish the lower control arms and maybe even start on the uppers. I'm pretty confident that I can move onto those parts next. Please let the rest of my measurements be right...

[SSLance]

Makes having a flat level floor or plate to work off seem pretty important doesn't it? My two post lift arms weren't square when I did my LCA pivot point modifications and it was brutal getting it all square. One of the reasons I like my drive on lift now for sure.

Barney sits at 6" bottom of frame behind front tires and 6.5" in front of rear tires. Nice compromise between street drivability and room for travel vs low CG.

Good work. Keep it up and keep updating us...

[Jaymzz]

Looking good!

[Sbeck09]

Makes having a flat level floor or plate to work off seem pretty important doesn't it? My two post lift arms weren't square when I did my LCA pivot point modifications and it was brutal getting it all square. One of the reasons I like my drive on lift now for sure.

Barney sits at 6" bottom of frame behind front tires and 6.5" in front of rear tires. Nice compromise between street drivability and room for travel vs low CG.

Good work. Keep it up and keep updating us...

I would give anything to have a level surface to set this thing on. I actually looked really hard at lift options when I was at SEMA. Just can't justify it right now. So when do I move in? Haha.

Glad you chose similar heights. I'm just winging it and guessing at what will work best all around. Hopefully I can show some positive results up front in the next couple days. I should have all the hardware sitting on the bench now.

[Sbeck09]

After 2 solid days working on the truck I have great progress on the front suspension!

First up was the 3rd set of lower control arms that needed to be made. You can see that each version has gotten progressively longer. I am happy to say that these came out perfect and I was able to make it perfectly match the width of my S550 rear. Win!

161340

Then I needed to just see where everything else would kind of fall so I grabbed random tubes I had within reach and here is the idea.

161341

You can see that I actually used the lower portion of the factory strut to make my upper spindle mount. It will be more than strong enough. I did notice that with wider wheels I would possibly run into backspacing issues so I moved the upper mounting point over and tried to compensate for Kingpin angle as best I could. It will be getting reinforced later on.

This was where I ran out of time Saturday. I measured some angles and made some notes so I could hit it hard today. It worked out and I completed tacking together all of the lower suspension except for the lower shock mount.

161342

161343

161344

I have now used my new bender too. Can confirm that hydraulic benders are the best thing ever and this Rogue Fab unit is well worth the money. Once again I'm hoping this is all pretty overbuilt. I stole the lower arm design from a couple sources. I have seen it on a number of circle track cars and even some BMW race cars. I like the added adjust-ability. By spinning the rear arm I can quickly change the caster. I figure it will also help insure that my thrust angle can be dialed perfectly at the alignment shop later on just in case.

What do you guys think of this design? Also, does anyone have the dimensions of Ridetech coilovers? I can't find the specs on spring diameter and bearing width. I know they are different lengths. I already have that in mind.

[SSLance]

Sean, I have a mock up shock body and an extra spring I can loan you. Let me know when you can meet to pass it along. Lance

[frink84]

the only thing I would be concerned with, on the rear abr for the lower arm, is turning radius. it looks like you might be selling yourself short. i know the s197 and bmw from arms are more of an L then an A, but still have the two pivot points on the chassis side.

[Sbeck09]

I knew I should have just texted you first. Haha. A physical object would help immensely. I think I've proven that I'm not perfect at measuring.

I'll hit you up in a couple days. Thanks!!!!

[Sbeck09]

the only thing I would be concerned with, on the rear abr for the lower arm, is turning radius. it looks like you might be selling yourself short. i know the s197 and bmw from arms are more of an L then an A, but still have the two pivot points on the chassis side.

Excellent point! I tried to measure for it, but I need to move the rack from lock to lock to verify now. I tried to set the rear arms to have about 1/2" of clearance at full lock. We all know how well I measure....

[SSLance]

I knew I should have just texted you first. Haha. A physical object would help immensely. I think I've proven that I'm not perfect at measuring.

I'll hit you up in a couple days. Thanks!!!!


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2019/02/20190211_145525X2-1.jpg

It's a stud top type shock body but should help give you a good idea anyway. Variety of bearing spacers available if needed as well. Just holler...and we'll find a place to meet up.

[injcted]

Great work, love the project!

[Sbeck09]

Great work, love the project!

Thanks for following!

On that note (you'll like this one injcted) I heard from the engine builder. The crank was delivered yesterday! So in about 2-3 weeks I should bring my forged 408w monster home. If any of you have recommendations for PDMs to make wiring easier, please share.

More soon...

[Sbeck09]

Getting closer to wrapping up the front suspension.

Today was one of those days where you spend 75% of your time on cutting and shaping little brackets. First bracket up was the upper uniball to clevis pins. Nothing fancy here, but I like it.

161571

Then I started playing around with where everything would mount. Thanks to Lance I had a shock to feel out what interference I might have. Turns out I had to move my upper control arm mount back outboard by about 1/2". No big deal since wider wheels will likely not need much additional backspacing. I'm prioritizing suspension geometry over possible wider wheels here. It was kind of exciting to see this all together for the first time.

161572

After making some measurements and moving mounts around I landed on this

161574

I feel good about how it all came out thus far. Obviously I need to add some material to the top of the frame rail. Thanks a lot Ford for making the most crooked frame ever. I'll see if I have any 3/16" steel plate handy. If not, I can work on finishing the rear end welds until I get some this week. Then onto shock mounts and actually ordering coilovers (Yay!). I really need to find an empty 351w block to make motor mounts too. Clock is ticking there. Anyone know where I can find a bare block for cheap in Phoenix?

[WallaceMFG]

Motor mounts for a 289 & 302 Ford are the same as a 351, so if you can find any of those blocks they will work for motor mount fabrication. I'd call your engine builder and ask if he has a junk one laying around you could use.

I have a 302 block I could loan you, but it's in Yuma and I wont be up to the valley for the better part of a month at this time.

[Sbeck09]

My engine builder only has 1 block and apparently it's valuable for some reason so I declined messing with it. I wanted to find a 351 so I could also check header clearance (taller deck) while making mounts too. Lance came through again and connected me with a guy down the street that has a well used bare block for $30. I'm picking it up tomorrow afternoon. Problem solved.

Thanks for the tip though!

[Sbeck09]

Somebody gets to say I told you so....but first I got the arms 90% completed today!

For starters I did have some strips of steel handy that would work so I grafted it on and measured everything 10 times before welding the first side on. This is at 0 degrees of camber and 6 degrees of caster for ride height. Took a ton of curse words just to do this much welding. My poor wire welder is not happy at all. It kept stopping feeding wire and then would stop letting shield gas flow. I'm going to try and have it serviced in the hopes it brings it back.

161616

After reveling in the glory of coming this far I had to cycle it to make sure I could confidently move onto the passenger side.

161617

Check. Smooth as glass. Zero bind. I couldn't be happier.

So a couple hours later I was able to replicate this for the other side and see how this crazy concept turned out.

161619

I'm lovin it! Already looks mean being low with 275s sitting there.

Now the "I told you so" award goes to frink84. I thought I accounted for full steering lock on the rear of the lower control arms. Fail. They are about 1/4" too far back. No biggy I just get to cut and move them forward slightly. But you can say it buddy. You were right.

[egoman]

You need to redesign your upper control arms. They will fail in use as they are designed. One of the arms has to be solid to your spherical bearing. I didn't look at the bottoms, but they may need this also. Welding one clevis probably wont work as the material they are made of is incredibly hard.

[Sbeck09]

You need to redesign your upper control arms. They will fail in use as they are designed. One of the arms has to be solid to your spherical bearing. I didn't look at the bottoms, but they may need this also. Welding one clevis probably wont work as the material they are made of is incredibly hard.

Excellent catch. I was actually planning to weld the front clevis on each side. These are supposed to only be zinc plated carbon steel (QA1) so I thought it would be fine. If you know something here that I don't, please share more!

Lowers can't have this issue since the forward arm is welded solid to the bearing sleeve.

[Sbeck09]

OK so dug into welding high carbon steel to mild steel. Totally doable, but best practice seems to be preheating slowly and then using post-heating to let it very slowly cool. Otherwise you can end up with cracking at the weld. I think I'm going to try it.

If anyone knows otherwise please stop me. I'll be working on this in a couple days.

[egoman]

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Allstar-Performance-15-Degree-Upper-Screw-In-Ball-Joint-Holder-P-N-56298/52240993
This is the general idea. When I build these I just extend the tubing to the threaded ring. That would save you 2 clevises to build more A-arms with. If you insist on welding the clevis we used to heat these to red hot and let them cool to take the "Hardness" out of them before welding.

[Sbeck09]

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Allstar-Performance-15-Degree-Upper-Screw-In-Ball-Joint-Holder-P-N-56298/52240993
This is the general idea. When I build these I just extend the tubing to the threaded ring. That would save you 2 clevises to build more A-arms with. If you insist on welding the clevis we used to heat these to red hot and let them cool to take the "Hardness" out of them before welding.

This is super cool! Thanks for sharing. So I wonder if I could just use a mid grade bolt with the same threads I already have. Then make a similar notch where my front clevis is now? Then I could weld it in and save the clevis like you suggested.

I really appreciate the input. This got the wheels of creativity turning in the right direction now.

[frink84]

Now the "I told you so" award goes to frink84. I thought I accounted for full steering lock on the rear of the lower control arms. Fail. They are about 1/4" too far back. No biggy I just get to cut and move them forward slightly. But you can say it buddy. You were right.

Woo! Though in this case I hate to be right, as it's more work for you.

[egoman]

The answer to using the bolt is a positive YES.

[Sbeck09]

So as much as I adhere to the southwestern tradition of Taco Tuesday, I am making a new one for today only : Test fit Tuesday. It's been a busy parts week for the road race F150 already.

For starters I grabbed some factory parts as well as new parts from the engine builder real quick today so I could start on motor and trans mounts. I also scored a WELL used 351w block from an old circle track racer down the road yesterday. I still think the coolest thing about the car hobby is the people you meet. The guy was a wealth of information about Ford and Chevy small blocks.

Here is one of my heads fresh out of the box. Easily half the weight of the factory heads and MUCH bigger ports and valves. I like an engine that breathes.

161684

He is of course going to clean up the ports a bit and add all the valve train goodies we got. Should be a very reliable top end.

What you really want to see is this:

161685

Yes it's all kinds of crooked and not far enough back, but you get the idea. Tranny is bolted up along with the headers. as far as clearance goes, I'm solid all the way around. Might have to set the engine about 3/4" higher than I expected due to the monster oil pan we got, but I'll accept that compromise. And the bad news...the headers were advertised as being good for a stock fox body with 351w swap. Driver side header looks good so far. Passenger side not so much. The rear primary is all over my factory starter and I am not sure it will clear the oil pan either. So I guess I get to cut up $1300 headers which really annoys me. I should have made my own from the get go.

Bright side, my suspension design fits better than I hoped. After my couple of required tweaks and finish welding that will finally be done. PROGRESS!!!!

Speaking of, anyone have a solid recommendation for a MIG welder that is $1000 or less. I'm gonna have to retire my poor Miller. :crying:

[Sbeck09]

The answer to using the bolt is a positive YES.

You're the real MVP here. Stick around...I might end up needing you to save my ass again. :cheers:

[Project Bike Truck]

I Dig my Miller 211

[SSLance]

I Dig my Miller 211

I like mine as well...

- - - Updated - - -




I also scored a WELL used 351w block from an old circle track racer down the road yesterday. I still think the coolest thing about the car hobby is the people you meet. The guy was a wealth of information about Ford and Chevy small blocks.



Don is awesome isn't he. He saved my butt on my third member repair last summer. Friend of a friend...it's not always what you know but who you know. ;)

[Sbeck09]

Man you guys are the worst influence on my wallet. Haha. I love Miller, but their stuff is so expensive even used. I do like the specs on that 211 though...

And yes, Don was great to just listen to. You've proven to be an invaluable resource on this project already Lance regardless of if I need parts or people. Thanks a ton!

[Sbeck09]

Ok guys I feel I should voice a concern here so you can all hit me with blunt constructive criticism and make sure I'm building safely. Really, don't hold back.

I keep thinking about my lower control arms. I love that they are so adjustable, but I am concerned about the amount of load each side is going to deal with. Plus the arms are made from 1.25 x .120 DOM so I'm worried about bending even if I reinforce the shock mount well. Would I be better served to completely dump the clevis pin on the wheel side and move up to 1.5 x .120 DOM? This way both sides of the arms are welded to the outer bearing cup and the arm has more meat all around. I would still maintain the inner heims for some adjustment.

Remember that this thing will probably weigh around 3500lbs with sticky 315s. Front weight bias could be up to 60%.

Thoughts? Best guesses?

[Project Bike Truck]

Ok guys I feel I should voice a concern here so you can all hit me with blunt constructive criticism and make sure I'm building safely. Really, don't hold back.

I keep thinking about my lower control arms. I love that they are so adjustable, but I am concerned about the amount of load each side is going to deal with. Plus the arms are made from 1.25 x .120 DOM so I'm worried about bending even if I reinforce the shock mount well. Would I be better served to completely dump the clevis pin on the wheel side and move up to 1.5 x .120 DOM? This way both sides of the arms are welded to the outer bearing cup and the arm has more meat all around. I would still maintain the inner heims for some adjustment.

Remember that this thing will probably weigh around 3500lbs with sticky 315s. Front weight bias could be up to 60%.

Thoughts? Best guesses?

How often do you see adjustable lower control arms?

I Feel like I comment too much on your page as it is?

[cornfedbill]

Ok guys I feel I should voice a concern here so you can all hit me with blunt constructive criticism and make sure I'm building safely. Really, don't hold back.

I keep thinking about my lower control arms. I love that they are so adjustable, but I am concerned about the amount of load each side is going to deal with. Plus the arms are made from 1.25 x .120 DOM so I'm worried about bending even if I reinforce the shock mount well. Would I be better served to completely dump the clevis pin on the wheel side and move up to 1.5 x .120 DOM? This way both sides of the arms are welded to the outer bearing cup and the arm has more meat all around. I would still maintain the inner heims for some adjustment.

Remember that this thing will probably weigh around 3500lbs with sticky 315s. Front weight bias could be up to 60%.

Thoughts? Best guesses?

Okay, but just because you asked.

Circle track racers use often use strut type front lower control arms (loosely based on the old Ford design). See https://www.speedwaymotors.com/AFCO-20028R-4K-Lower-Control-Arm-Kit-3-4-Standard-Rod-End-Press,241256.html.

They do not use a clevis on the lower arm though. the forward strut bolts to the lower "arm" with two bolts. I would suggest changing the clevis to a bolted strut like this example or a Mustang II front end. I think you are pretty close.

161718

[CSG]

I don't know if this helps with any ideas but these are what Griggs makes for road race mustangs.

[Sbeck09]

I don't know if this helps with any ideas but these are what Griggs makes for road race mustangs.

That's exactly what I was looking at when designing all of this. I can't find any info on what material size they used though.

[Sbeck09]

How often do you see adjustable lower control arms?

I Feel like I comment too much on your page as it is?

I never see it, which is probably why I'm questioning it. Please...keep the comments coming.


Okay, but just because you asked.

Circle track racers use often use strut type front lower control arms (loosely based on the old Ford design). See https://www.speedwaymotors.com/AFCO-20028R-4K-Lower-Control-Arm-Kit-3-4-Standard-Rod-End-Press,241256.html.

They do not use a clevis on the lower arm though. the forward strut bolts to the lower "arm" with two bolts. I would suggest changing the clevis to a bolted strut like this example or a Mustang II front end. I think you are pretty close.

Thanks! I was hoping to have some more experienced folks jump in. I had that direct bolt-on thought in the beginning, but I copied some circle track arms I saw with a clevis so I could have threads on both ends of that rear arm. I figured it allowed the rear arm length to have more adjustment. Am I misunderstanding this setup?

Seems you all have no doubts about the material size as long as there is plenty of gussets? Thanks again for the quick input here everyone. This is how I learn best.

[CSG]

I can't comment on material strength in that application. I do know that Griggs builds stuff what Bruce calls "racer light". With that said I don't feel he would have added that large reinforcement if it was not needed and I have heard of that arm breaking on cars with sticky 315's. Of-course like you said we do not know the material.

[cornfedbill]

Thanks! I was hoping to have some more experienced folks jump in. I had that direct bolt-on thought in the beginning, but I copied some circle track arms I saw with a clevis so I could have threads on both ends of that rear arm. I figured it allowed the rear arm length to have more adjustment. Am I misunderstanding this setup?

Seems you all have no doubts about the material size as long as there is plenty of gussets? Thanks again for the quick input here everyone. This is how I learn best.

I think you have a good design. It is not without precedent on the track. Sometimes public roads can be more severe than a race track.

Good gussets and good welds will be key. Keep up the good work.

[CSG]

The cortex design looks nice as well.

[frink84]

I'd look at what some of the drift folks have done, as they usually have a ton of adjustment in their arms. I found these pretty quickly: https://driftamerican.com/stage-3-drift-arms-for-79-04-mustang/

[Sbeck09]

The cortex design looks nice as well.

Agreed. Almost like a beefier Griggs arm in some ways. Both of those companies make me wish I had an S197 to just throw money at.


I'd look at what some of the drift folks have done, as they usually have a ton of adjustment in their arms. I found these pretty quickly: https://driftamerican.com/stage-3-drift-arms-for-79-04-mustang/

That design is basically what I was thinking about doing if I redesigned out of bigger tubing. Those guys beat the hell out of stuff so you know it would be fine for what I'm doing.

OK fine. You all have talked me into it. I'm gonna gusset and weld the hell out of these lower arms. We shall find out the results together!

[Sbeck09]

Not the most productive weekend I've had and it's totally my fault. I had some buddies come over to check the project out and then we rode our project scooters (yes that's a thing and you're missing out). And I just kinda worked slowly overall.

When I was at the engine builder last week he let me steal the actual oil pan for mockup which was sweet! I have to say that it's a MONSTER. Not the biggest I've seen, but I think this is about 7.5 qts. It's got all the trap doors around the sump too. True road race piece.

161830

This brings me back to the epic failure of my headers again. You'll notice they are no longer bolted on. Because neither side fits with this oil pan. I'm really frustrated about it and should have made my own. That's what I get for trying to mix and match parts. So to attempt to get my money's worth I'll be cutting these and hopefully making lemonade out of these lemons. Ugh.

Finally had a reason to unbox the motor mounts I ordered 3 months ago. Cool pieces. Similar to the LS swap stuff everyone likes, me included. This is the only company I could find that offers such a thing for SBF. Perfect for this build too.

161831

161832

And of course once I got to sliding everything in things went out of control again. The person I am, never being content with "that will work," meant the motor is going to be offset only .5 inches to the passenger side (much more centered than the factory setup) and is about 98% behind the axle. Like, the timing cover and accessories will be the only things in front of the axle center line. But hey, because race truck.

161833

The out of control part comes from the fire wall cutting this brought on. For the record, I hate sheet metal welding. But the driver's side cylinder head was bumping just slightly and I probably need to cut a bit more for the valve covers. I'd love to have one of those handy right now...

161834

After using my neighbor's Lincoln 210 MP all weekend for this work I have this to say: not a big fan of the inverter welders they make now. I don't feel it's as smooth. The one positive is that you can turn it WAY down and it doesn't blow out thin sheet metal nearly as easy, but that's the only positive I have.

That's it for now. As always, more to come soon.

[cornfedbill]

Getting closer to wrapping up the front suspension.

Today was one of those days where you spend 75% of your time on cutting and shaping little brackets. First bracket up was the upper uniball to clevis pins. Nothing fancy here, but I like it.

161571

Then I started playing around with where everything would mount. Thanks to Lance I had a shock to feel out what interference I might have. Turns out I had to move my upper control arm mount back outboard by about 1/2". No big deal since wider wheels will likely not need much additional backspacing. I'm prioritizing suspension geometry over possible wider wheels here. It was kind of exciting to see this all together for the first time.

161572

After making some measurements and moving mounts around I landed on this

161574

I feel good about how it all came out thus far. Obviously I need to add some material to the top of the frame rail. Thanks a lot Ford for making the most crooked frame ever. I'll see if I have any 3/16" steel plate handy. If not, I can work on finishing the rear end welds until I get some this week. Then onto shock mounts and actually ordering coilovers (Yay!). I really need to find an empty 351w block to make motor mounts too. Clock is ticking there. Anyone know where I can find a bare block for cheap in Phoenix?

I was looking at the upper control arm photos. What is to prevent the ball joint assembly from rotating in the two clevises? Normally you would have one clevis and weld the other leg to the flange on the ball joint sleeve. Take a look at SPC upper control arms and some of the circle track uppers. It should be an easy modification from what you have.

Overall, your craftsmanship is great. This is a very interesting build.

[Sbeck09]

I was looking at the upper control arm photos. What is to prevent the ball joint assembly from rotating in the two clevises? Normally you would have one clevis and weld the other leg to the flange on the ball joint sleeve. Take a look at SPC upper control arms and some of the circle track uppers. It should be an easy modification from what you have.

Overall, your craftsmanship is great. This is a very interesting build.

Thanks for the kudos! It means a lot.

You are absolutely correct about the upper ball joint. I actually had to special order some low grade bolts with the correct 5/8-18 thread so I can do exactly what you suggested. They just haven't arrived yet. Hopefully I can get that done this week. We figured the clevis, being high carbon, would be too prone to cracking.

[Sbeck09]

OK suspension experts weight in on this one. I am out working on motor mounts and needed a break from crawling around so I decided to check some suspension measurements.

Over the course of 3" of travel in the front:

Gained 2.5 degrees of negative camber

Lost .5 degrees of caster...yes lost.

Here is my main question after thinking this through, camber gain seems aggressive, but I don't think it will be bad since there will likely be some body roll, am I wrong? For the caster loss I was bummed at first, but the more I think about it, isn't that actually helpful in something like autox? Wouldn't that make turning a little easier when you dive in hard on a 90 degree turn without killing high speed stability?

Let's bench race a little here boys. GO!

[SSLance]

How much caster did you start with before loosing .5?

I'll try to find my alignment specs from the last time I had mine on a rack with a pull down setup. I dont remember if it list caster or not but I was paying more attention to bump steer and camber gain under compression...not caster.

[Sbeck09]

I has 6 degrees at ride height.

[Project Bike Truck]

Wish I understood this stuff better than I do.

Guess where this thread was posted?

[Sbeck09]

Wish I understood this stuff better than I do.

Guess where this thread was posted?

Me too man. That's why I keep asking this stuff. More of this is slightly educated guessing than I'd like to admit. I Google the topic to death and then just get to cutting. Too few truck projects out there and basically none are sharing real data and setup figures. That's one of my big goals with this. I'll share everything in the hope it helps others working on oddball vehicles too.

[SSLance]

Let's see if I can get photobucket to place nice here...

These were taken the last time my car was on an actual alignment rack, 3 years ago I believe.

This was at ride height after adjustments...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2019/03/0818161406-1.jpg (https://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0818161406.jpg.html)

And this was with the front suspension compressed about 1.5" at the shock if I recall correctly.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2019/03/0818161430-1.jpg (https://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/0818161430.jpg.html)


Looks like we may not have pulled the front down exactly square (pulled one side down more than the other) and if I also remember right, we had issues with the caster moving the turn plate so much that it was interfering with the lift ramp itself. That said, I'd bet pretty good money that the caster stayed close to the same as the camber gained about 1 degree in that 1.5" of travel at the shock.

[Sbeck09]

Thanks for sharing this Lance!

So it seems like I'm a bit low on my caster setting initially and my camber gain is slightly more aggressive?

Darn....now I'm wondering if I need to move and revise my upper control arm mounts.

[JayinMI]

Did you have this moved from the Trucks section? Probably get a lot more attention over here.

[SSLance]

So here is my thought on alignment\geometry opinions on what works best...they are like butt holes, everyone has one. :D

What I have picked up and learned over the years is that you need different geometry to accomplish different goals and it is all based on the equipment you currently have. For example, our goal was to get as much caster as well could on my car to correct the contact patch for the high SAI of the spindles and the amount of body roll my car had. The goal was to keep the outside front tire from going positive camber as you add steering angle and to get the inside front tire to lean into the corner instead of out. We accomplished great front grip with this method, really really great grip.

The only downside to running huge caster is the jacking effect of the front end when steering angle is induced...and this is a factor. It is multiplied by a few things, tire width and scrub radius mainly. With my smallish 275 front tires and a decent scrub, the jacking didn't have that much of an effect on overall handling...the added grip was well worth the side effect.

That said...since then I have added a ton of Ackerman with the new ATS Spindle steering arms and a lot less body roll with the huge front sway bar...and I am considering trying to take some caster out of the setup now to reduce the jacking effect...just to see what it does. Both of the changes above greatly increased the front grip..mainly from the inside front tire and my thought is that it may be a bit better overall without the jacking effect of the huge caster #.

See what I mean? All of it has to work together, there isn't a magical # to any one part of this. I just posted the results above because I was curious how much caster I gained or lost in compression as I'd never paid attention to that before. Hope this helps...

[Sbeck09]

That does help a bit Lance. I appreciate you breaking that down further. I thought that 10 degrees seemed a little extreme for caster.

I may just run with mine set as it is. I can definitely add or subtract any setting I want on the front suspension. That's the reason I went with the setup that I built. I do have to move the lower rear of the control arm to make room at full lock (geez the s197 has some good angle) and I might redo the upper control arm mounts to get rid of the caster change.

[Sbeck09]

OK suspension theory aside for a minute (we will return to that after this update), I got the more pressing matter of frame boxing and engine/trans mounts going this past weekend.

I was both excited and nervous to get these started. I knew the frame being straight as a winding road would make boxing....interesting. On top of that I wanted to make sure the driveline angle matched the irs while being as low as I could safely and physically go.

First up after the initial test fit was to notch my front cross member. Nothing quite like cutting a chunk out of a day's work.

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This is after an inch notch so I could lower the entire engine/trans package. It kept just hitting the floor of the cab when I was matching the pinion angles and I'm really trying to avoid a bunch of sheet metal work this time. In a perfect world I would have moved the entire oil pan behind the cross member (5 inches back) and lowered it another 2-3 inches down. I then remembered that I've already gone wayyyyyyy further with this project than I ever intended and doing more setback meant all new sheet metal behind the engine bulge of the firewall. No thank you. Every cylinder is behind the front axle. I'm calling this good. You can already see how much I've had to modify the firewall for valve cover clearance.

So the inch worked and now I needed to prep the frame to have mounts and braces welded to it. My AWESOME neighbor (seriously my neighbors are better than yours) cut me strips of "scrap" 3/16 steel plate to box the frame. But I wanted to add in some internal support behind the plate around where the trans would mount (or so I thought).

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You may notice the cab is like RIGHT THERE. Yeah...my dumbass crawled under this thing to cut, trim, and weld this portion. Not fun even at 28. Then it finally clicked that I needed to remove the cab anyway. Duh.

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And then it was much easier. Also, check out that cab moving system. Yeah that's bricks and furniture dollies. It worked pretty well to just roll back and gave basically all the room I needed to do this center section of frame. One day I'll have a real shop of my own with help. This was solo.

With a good foundation to mount everything I tacked those Ruff Stuff motor mounts I've had hidden in a box. Little pricey, but man they are nice. VERY easy to mount and align. I'd recommend these to anyone with a SBF that likes this poly mount all the LS swaps use.

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Then I shimmed everything to match my 3 degrees of pinion angle and leveled the motor. Suddenly I realized those tubes I added to mount the rear of the lower control arms were the perfect base for my motor mount stand offs.

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Ta da! And no header interference for once. I'll add a little bracing to these just to tie everything together.

This also gave me a reason to bust out my new notcher from Rogue Fab that I got with my bender. If you're in the market, get this one. I've used many and this is the best I've touched so far. Ignore my cramped work space.

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Then I started on the trans mount. I thought I would go to the plating on the frame rails. So here is V1.

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Not a fan. Its long and would need loops for the exhaust. Just didn't seem like the right move. I don't have enough tubing yet, but those poly mounts will be moved to mount on the chassis "X" that I'm doing next. Then I'll have more exhaust space and it will all tie together better.

This push allowed me to return the pan and head I borrowed from the engine builder. He is working on knocking my build out over the next couple weeks.

So now I need you guys to weigh in. I'm going to have to wire this beast from scratch. I know that I want it to all be the new solid state stuff. So think PDU, PDM, etc. I can't decide which one. Mainly because of the switches each is compatible with. So far I'm looking at:

Rywire PDM
ECU Master PDU
Racepak Smartwire Streetwire
Cartek PDM16

All of these are expensive for me and additional switches make it worse, but the whole truck will run through this except A/C and window motors. I don't like wiring failures and the ease of use combined with the reliability is hard to ignore. Weigh in your thoughts or experiences. Any vendors wanna help a brother out a little for some fender space?

[frink84]

I have zero input on what wiring system is best, but I would consider how you're running the wiring before continuing on with boxing the frame. You might want to consider running wiring/brake line/etc down the inside of the frame for a clean look.

[CSG]

I like that notcher. Mine can't notch close to a bend like that one can.

[Sbeck09]

Great point. I think I'm going to run the wires along the outside of the passenger frame rail and fuel/brakes along the driver's side. Something about that much wiring being hidden bothers me thinking about if I ever had to open the loom or add something. And I don't like hoses to be hidden since you can't see leaks that way. Luckily this is a "fair weather" toy. I'm all about function over form and I plan to beat this truck pretty good when it's done so I expect to need to service and replace components that most people never think of. Plus how do people secure hoses inside frame rails after it's all welded? You couldn't weld with that stuff already installed.

- - - Updated - - -


I like that notcher. Mine can't notch close to a bend like that one can.

It can actually notch on a bend. Its seriously impressive and they make everything right here in the US.

[wfo guy]

I'm late to the party. In case you don't know, the Mustang rear doesn't have a centered pinion. You haven't mentioned how you are going to brace the front chassis around your suspension. The truck frames aren't capable of sustaining twist without substantial crossmembers. There is a reason most of the aftermarket crossmembers have 2 x 4 tubing bent for the center brace. If you have access to someone with finite analysis, you might consider some stress calculations. I'm sure you want to be safe. :)

[Sbeck09]

I would actually say you are right on time to the party. I did notice the off center pinion, but didn't think it would cause me any issues. Please let me know if I'm wrong about that. I am absolutely planning on doing chassis bracing. I am starting that by boxing the entire frame between the front and rear suspension. Then I am picking up more tubing tomorrow that will form a giant "X" in the middle. I'll add a number of smaller tie-ins beyond that. I wish I knew someone with finite analysis, but I haven't made any of those friends yet.

[wfo guy]

U-joints only compensate for one direction of misalignment. You will hear people tell you what they got away with very often. You are starting with a clean slate so it makes sense to me to do it the best it can be the 1st time. There are many very good websites detailing u joint angles. This is just one: http://www.driveshaftshop.com/angle-calibration. If you watch this video, it will show you better than I ever could try to explain: https://youtu.be/jaaTyL099RA . Boxing the frame will be a good step but a brace in front of your front suspension mounting points could be beneficial. The most advantageous point is in the middle where the engine sits. That's why most crossmembers are very substantial. In your area, you have Industrial Chassis. I believe the owner's name is Steve. He is very knowledgeable about suspension. It might be worth your time to visit with him and see if he has advice. Good luck and be patient. :)

[Sbeck09]

That video was a fantastic representation of what people always try and say with words. Thanks for sharing! Luckily my input and output shafts run parallel so they will "cancel each other out."

[WallaceMFG]

You could always run a CV driveshaft as well. Several people on this forum have used them with good results. That makes a lot of the drive line angles irrelevant.

[Sbeck09]

You could always run a CV driveshaft as well. Several people on this forum have used them with good results. That makes a lot of the drive line angles irrelevant.

I was wondering about that. I've never seen it done though. Do I just tell the shop that makes my driveshaft what diff I have and they will source it? I would kinda prefer that given my setup.

[Sbeck09]

I owe you all a weekend update as usual.

Nothing huge, but good progress. I will drive this thing before the summer!

First up was focusing on making a trans mount so the drive train could all finally support itself. After deciding not to run the tranny cross member to the frame last week I had to get some more boxing plate in and layout my main X brace for the chassis.

162313

You can see that despite stopping and starting multiple time (super awkward position for me) I am finally getting my neighbor's welder working decent. Still not sold on the inverter tech for heavy stuff, but beggars can't be choosers. Seeing the boxing plate in ended up making the frame just look nicer too. Can't wait to see it all cleaned up and coated!

Got the X all trimmed and positioned. I'm already getting back to being decent at fitting tubes for this so the cage should go smoothly when we get there fairly soon.

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162315

Bricks still holding the trans in place but that was about the be no more...

162316

That's some heavy duty steel holding it all up, but I wanted more side support and to also tie into the frame in more places. Plus we all know that triangles are the strongest shape.

162317

Then when I stepped back with the wheels removed I realized that this frame looks pretty wild and wide. And I might have been glowing with a slight bit of pride in my work.

162318

But out back I needed to remove a riveted factory cross member that just sits under the bed, but doesn't bolt to it. It won't be needed and is really kind of in the way. Have I mentioned how much I hate these ridiculously tough rivets?! They are grinding wheel killers! Look closely and you can just see the tail of the trans in there. Driveshaft will only be about 50" total length. Now I just have to find a local shop that I can trust to build me one. Once that is in I can layout the fuel cell mounts. That's right. The fuel cell is going just behind the cab and as low as I can safely mount it with the drive shaft there.

162321

Since you guys are so sharp I'm sure a couple of you are already typing up replies to say that my X is in the way of the drive shaft. Yes, you are correct. I am putting a drive shaft loop there, but it was much easier for me to build it this way to line everything up better. It wasn't really any extra work. I'll just build the loop from 1/4" plate bent into a circle and cut the tubes to weld to the outside. It will make more sense when you see it.

Next task is to redo my upper control arm mounts. I know, real shocker, I have to change something on my front suspension design...again. :dunno:

[WallaceMFG]

I was wondering about that. I've never seen it done though. Do I just tell the shop that makes my driveshaft what diff I have and they will source it? I would kinda prefer that given my setup.


andrewb70 has a pretty good write up in his 70 GTO thread. Pages 29 & 34 on that thread have some pictures and info.

Here's the shop info:

http://www.driveshaftshop.com/driveshaft-conversion-parts/custom-cv-driveshaft-using-a-ball-and-cage-style-cv-real-cv-in-your-street-rod-or-muscle-car


Since you have the IRS from the S550 Mustang it should be easy enough to tell them that and your trans type to get you set up. Not the cheapest option, but a good one. Otherwise, I'll ask my dad what shop he used for our cars driveshafts, I can't remember off the top of my head.

[Project Bike Truck]

andrewb70 has a pretty good write up in his 70 GTO thread. Pages 29 & 34 on that thread have some pictures and info.

Here's the shop info:

http://www.driveshaftshop.com/driveshaft-conversion-parts/custom-cv-driveshaft-using-a-ball-and-cage-style-cv-real-cv-in-your-street-rod-or-muscle-car


Since you have the IRS from the S550 Mustang it should be easy enough to tell them that and your trans type to get you set up. Not the cheapest option, but a good one. Otherwise, I'll ask my dad what shop he used for our cars driveshafts, I can't remember off the top of my head.

Thanks for pointing this out, I just went deep in a rabbit hole and solved a paranoid drive shaft vibration issue that has been plaguing my mind for a long time.

[Sbeck09]

andrewb70 has a pretty good write up in his 70 GTO thread. Pages 29 & 34 on that thread have some pictures and info.

Here's the shop info:

Since you have the IRS from the S550 Mustang it should be easy enough to tell them that and your trans type to get you set up. Not the cheapest option, but a good one. Otherwise, I'll ask my dad what shop he used for our cars driveshafts, I can't remember off the top of my head.

Awesome info! Thanks. This was fascinating to read. I had no clue that a CV on the drive shaft would have so many positive effects if setup correctly. I definitely want to find a way to use this to my advantage now. Looking at what he paid for a CF shaft, I suspect getting mine in aluminum would be fairly reasonable. Let me know when you find out who you guys used. I'd like to find a local place to deal with. This is pretty high on my agenda now that the mounts are set.

[NorthFalcon]

After looking at your photo of your current upper control arms, I see a few issues. The biggest one is, if the bolts on the two heim joints come loose on the top of the spindle, the spindle will be able to flop forward and backwards. Another big issue is quick adjustments, currently if you make any one adjustment on either of the swedge tubes on the upper control arm you will effect caster and camber. Just because you have an open canvas, I think you could make better use of that space by going with a more stock car style upper control arm. That way you can quickly shim camber, or use pucks to change camber curve, as well as shim for caster. Something like this. https://pitstopusa.com/i-19425209-howe-tower-upper-a-arm-mount-slotted-for-keys-6-hole-centers-steel.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&scid=scplp19425209&sc_intid=19425209&gclid=CjwKCAjw96fkBRA2EiwAKZjFTezzNvv4uPwjI19AZhWS 7b_iT99xODGZFnjze4rdO7MNNsDJpQkJeRoCYSEQAvD_BwE

[cornfedbill]

After looking at your photo of your current upper control arms, I see a few issues. The biggest one is, if the bolts on the two heim joints come loose on the top of the spindle, the spindle will be able to flop forward and backwards. Another big issue is quick adjustments, currently if you make any one adjustment on either of the swedge tubes on the upper control arm you will effect caster and camber. Just because you have an open canvas, I think you could make better use of that space by going with a more stock car style upper control arm. That way you can quickly shim camber, or use pucks to change camber curve, as well as shim for caster. Something like this. https://pitstopusa.com/i-19425209-howe-tower-upper-a-arm-mount-slotted-for-keys-6-hole-centers-steel.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&scid=scplp19425209&sc_intid=19425209&gclid=CjwKCAjw96fkBRA2EiwAKZjFTezzNvv4uPwjI19AZhWS 7b_iT99xODGZFnjze4rdO7MNNsDJpQkJeRoCYSEQAvD_BwE

That is what I purchased for my upper control arm mounts on the Scope Creep Nova. I ordered them directly from Howe with some slugs for adjustment.

[RMMiller]

That truck is going to be awesome, hands down the best body style for the F150! Thanks for the motor mounts, I am ordering a set for my Maverick build so I don't have to worry about the stock style failing on me.

[Sbeck09]

After looking at your photo of your current upper control arms, I see a few issues. The biggest one is, if the bolts on the two heim joints come loose on the top of the spindle, the spindle will be able to flop forward and backwards. Another big issue is quick adjustments, currently if you make any one adjustment on either of the swedge tubes on the upper control arm you will effect caster and camber. Just because you have an open canvas, I think you could make better use of that space by going with a more stock car style upper control arm. That way you can quickly shim camber, or use pucks to change camber curve, as well as shim for caster. Something like this. https://pitstopusa.com/i-19425209-howe-tower-upper-a-arm-mount-slotted-for-keys-6-hole-centers-steel.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&scid=scplp19425209&sc_intid=19425209&gclid=CjwKCAjw96fkBRA2EiwAKZjFTezzNvv4uPwjI19AZhWS 7b_iT99xODGZFnjze4rdO7MNNsDJpQkJeRoCYSEQAvD_BwE

Thanks for the tips. I mainly liked that I could rapidly alter camber and/or caster by picking this design. Now I'm starting to wonder though. I like that bracket you linked since I can get off the shelf shims which would keep adjustments consistent from side to side. And to clarify, the two bolt design on the outside is not permanent. That would never work as it just folds up on itself. I have a solid thread to weld in one side just like the SPC arms all use.

Any tips on making those style of arms? Maybe I could design it to still work with inner heims for fine tuning initially, but let the shims be my track side adjustment. Then my lower arms would be my primary caster adjustment. You've got the gears turning...


That truck is going to be awesome, hands down the best body style for the F150! Thanks for the motor mounts, I am ordering a set for my Maverick build so I don't have to worry about the stock style failing on me.

Glad you like it and that the info helps. Stock mounts are way too soft even when new. I actually have wanted to build a Maverick for a while so I'm envious you are doing it.

[Sbeck09]

Thought I should update on what's going on. It's been a bit of a waiting game, but for good reasons. Plus I was distracted by the Good Guys spring nationals happening in my backyard last weekend so of course I was there to steal ideas and get inspired!

Against my better financial judgement, I picked the Racepak Smartwire Street kit for the chassis wiring. I've mentioned before that I really wanted to run a solid state PDM and this certainly covers that. Definitely not the cheapest option in that realm, but this is guaranteed to work with my Holley Dominator so that's what made me go this route.

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I also want to give Woodward Steering a BIG thank you for dealing with a FedEx failure. I caved about a month ago and ordered a steering column kit from them. Somehow it was delivered, but I never saw a thing. They shipped an entire replacement out within 24 hours of me notifying them and while they had a blizzard. Genuinely nice people and I'd use them again in a heartbeat. They aren't a sponsor, just really happy with my treatment.

162684

I can't wait to see that installed!:yum:

I want to thank NorthFalcon for pointing out an upper control arm solution that I wasn't aware I could get DIY parts for. Thanks to you and my incessant overthinking, I have a batch of parts due for delivery this Friday. I think you guys are gonna like it. That's this weekend's goal: finish that damn front suspension setup!

Wallace MFG thanks for the tip on the CV type driveshaft. I am in the process of getting a custom one ordered. They are about 4 weeks out.

Things are heating up boys!:firefire:

[Project Bike Truck]

Thought I should update on what's going on. It's been a bit of a waiting game, but for good reasons. Plus I was distracted by the Good Guys spring nationals happening in my backyard last weekend so of course I was there to steal ideas and get inspired!

Against my better financial judgement, I picked the Racepak Smartwire Street kit for the chassis wiring. I've mentioned before that I really wanted to run a solid state PDM and this certainly covers that. Definitely not the cheapest option in that realm, but this is guaranteed to work with my Holley Dominator so that's what made me go this route.

162681

162682

I also want to give Woodward Steering a BIG thank you for dealing with a FedEx failure. I caved about a month ago and ordered a steering column kit from them. Somehow it was delivered, but I never saw a thing. They shipped an entire replacement out within 24 hours of me notifying them and while they had a blizzard. Genuinely nice people and I'd use them again in a heartbeat. They aren't a sponsor, just really happy with my treatment.

162684

I can't wait to see that installed!:yum:

I want to thank NorthFalcon for pointing out an upper control arm solution that I wasn't aware I could get DIY parts for. Thanks to you and my incessant overthinking, I have a batch of parts due for delivery this Friday. I think you guys are gonna like it. That's this weekend's goal: finish that damn front suspension setup!

Wallace MFG thanks for the tip on the CV type driveshaft. I am in the process of getting a custom one ordered. They are about 4 weeks out.

Things are heating up boys!:firefire:

Tell me more about the driveshaft? Congrats on buying the good stuff. It's well worth it.

[Sbeck09]

Tell me more about the driveshaft? Congrats on buying the good stuff. It's well worth it.

I can't stand electrical issues so when there is a way to eliminate potential issues I am all over it.

I had to work with Driveshaft Shop for a custom length setup. I was really hoping to find a local company, but they either couldn't/wouldn't source the CV end or more often just didn't have a clue about power levels vs material type. That concerned me greatly. So far my communication with Driveshaft Shop has been flawless and clear. I'm hoping to have my order completed in the next day or two depending on them.

[lightningcow]

To remove the rivets, center punch and drill through the head with a 1/2" drill. Then, punch the rest through the hole. I used this method on my '93 F-150 while building my crown vic ifs/3-link rear setup.

[Sbeck09]

To remove the rivets, center punch and drill through the head with a 1/2" drill. Then, punch the rest through the hole. I used this method on my '93 F-150 while building my crown vic ifs/3-link rear setup.

Interesting idea for making less mess. How many drill bits did you ruin during that project? Also, how did you like the handling after all that work?

[lightningcow]

The bit was fine as I recall, but I can re-sharpen a good drill. I seem to remember the rivets being soft, so they would eat up a grinding wheel for sure.

The truck is still a skateboard...paint and body next and then maybe I can start putting it together. Simple 351w with heads and probably a fitech controlled port injection setup, it's always been a manual...from the mazda 5-speed behind the 300 i6 to the 351w with T5 that I broke twice before switching to the tko-600. Maybe this will be the year!

[Sbeck09]

Yeah I'm burning up grinding wheels pretty fast even using an air chisel to help. I still have probably 20+ rivets to go.

Let me know if you are sharing build progress anywhere. I'd love to follow along. You are only the 4th person (including me) that I have seen changing out the entire suspension under this generation for street use.

[WallaceMFG]

Cut an "X" in the head of the rivet with a cut off wheel, then use the air chisel to knock the rest off. Gets the job done pretty well.

[Jaymzz]

For some reason I have never seen the Racepak products. I have been looking into Hallteck but now going to dig deeper into Racepak now also. Thank you.
Your truck is looking good!

[Ddkeeler]

I owe you all a weekend update as usual.

Nothing huge, but good progress. I will drive this thing before the summer!

First up was focusing on making a trans mount so the drive train could all finally support itself. After deciding not to run the tranny cross member to the frame last week I had to get some more boxing plate in and layout my main X brace for the chassis.

162313

You can see that despite stopping and starting multiple time (super awkward position for me) I am finally getting my neighbor's welder working decent. Still not sold on the inverter tech for heavy stuff, but beggars can't be choosers. Seeing the boxing plate in ended up making the frame just look nicer too. Can't wait to see it all cleaned up and coated!

Got the X all trimmed and positioned. I'm already getting back to being decent at fitting tubes for this so the cage should go smoothly when we get there fairly soon.

162314

162315

Bricks still holding the trans in place but that was about the be no more...

162316

That's some heavy duty steel holding it all up, but I wanted more side support and to also tie into the frame in more places. Plus we all know that triangles are the strongest shape.

162317

Then when I stepped back with the wheels removed I realized that this frame looks pretty wild and wide. And I might have been glowing with a slight bit of pride in my work.

162318

But out back I needed to remove a riveted factory cross member that just sits under the bed, but doesn't bolt to it. It won't be needed and is really kind of in the way. Have I mentioned how much I hate these ridiculously tough rivets?! They are grinding wheel killers! Look closely and you can just see the tail of the trans in there. Driveshaft will only be about 50" total length. Now I just have to find a local shop that I can trust to build me one. Once that is in I can layout the fuel cell mounts. That's right. The fuel cell is going just behind the cab and as low as I can safely mount it with the drive shaft there.

162321

Since you guys are so sharp I'm sure a couple of you are already typing up replies to say that my X is in the way of the drive shaft. Yes, you are correct. I am putting a drive shaft loop there, but it was much easier for me to build it this way to line everything up better. It wasn't really any extra work. I'll just build the loop from 1/4" plate bent into a circle and cut the tubes to weld to the outside. It will make more sense when you see it.

Next task is to redo my upper control arm mounts. I know, real shocker, I have to change something on my front suspension design...again. :dunno:

Dude that rod end had to be super expensive. I’m trying to decide what ball joints to run. What are they?

[Ddkeeler]

After looking at your photo of your current upper control arms, I see a few issues. The biggest one is, if the bolts on the two heim joints come loose on the top of the spindle, the spindle will be able to flop forward and backwards. Another big issue is quick adjustments, currently if you make any one adjustment on either of the swedge tubes on the upper control arm you will effect caster and camber. Just because you have an open canvas, I think you could make better use of that space by going with a more stock car style upper control arm. That way you can quickly shim camber, or use pucks to change camber curve, as well as shim for caster. Something like this. https://pitstopusa.com/i-19425209-howe-tower-upper-a-arm-mount-slotted-for-keys-6-hole-centers-steel.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&scid=scplp19425209&sc_intid=19425209&gclid=CjwKCAjw96fkBRA2EiwAKZjFTezzNvv4uPwjI19AZhWS 7b_iT99xODGZFnjze4rdO7MNNsDJpQkJeRoCYSEQAvD_BwE


When designing a suspension with those type of control arms, should a certain degree of camber or caster be designed into them? Or should they be left as close to 0 as possible err on the side of more caster and less camber?

Am I over thinking this?

[Sbeck09]

For some reason I have never seen the Racepak products. I have been looking into Hallteck but now going to dig deeper into Racepak now also. Thank you.
Your truck is looking good!

Glad to present a new brand then. They are owned by Holley, but seem to function pretty independently. If you are looking at PDMs in general I would HIGHLY recommend http://www.rywire.com/category-s/1930.htm to educate and see even more options. I specifically was going to run the Moristech P30 with Racegrade keypad which is literally half the cost, but you have to be more fluent in OpenCAN language. Even then, I wasn't guaranteed to be able to get it talking with my Dominator. So that's why I did what I did. All of these systems are really freaking cool and will become a staple of any future builds I do.


Dude that rod end had to be super expensive. I’m trying to decide what ball joints to run. What are they?

Ready to be surprised? https://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/catalog/R1898.html is where I get them all. While it's not quite as high quality as maybe an FK or QA1, the bang for the buck is undeniable. RuffStuff has been amazing to deal with decent prices. My "ball joints" are actually 1" uniballs like you commonly find on an off-road truck. The idea was they are incredibly strong, easy to fabricate with, and a breeze to service. If you are building from scratch it is worth a consideration. But know that a ball joint seats more solid with it's tapered shaft. I would say to evaluate based on what spindle you use. I had no off-the-shelf options.


When designing a suspension with those type of control arms, should a certain degree of camber or caster be designed into them? Or should they be left as close to 0 as possible err on the side of more caster and less camber?

Am I over thinking this?

Don't worry, this entire project is an exercise in how much I can overthink stuff. Haha. I set everything right in the middle of the adjustment range I wanted. That way I could tune more or less from my base settings. That would be where you'd need to decide what you want your starting or "base" settings to be. But to be fair, I'm cutting these arms off in favor of a more simplified setup. Check back after this weekend and I'll have some pics up.

[Ddkeeler]

Glad to present a new brand then. They are owned by Holley, but seem to function pretty independently. If you are looking at PDMs in general I would HIGHLY recommend http://www.rywire.com/category-s/1930.htm to educate and see even more options. I specifically was going to run the Moristech P30 with Racegrade keypad which is literally half the cost, but you have to be more fluent in OpenCAN language. Even then, I wasn't guaranteed to be able to get it talking with my Dominator. So that's why I did what I did. All of these systems are really freaking cool and will become a staple of any future builds I do.



Ready to be surprised? https://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/catalog/R1898.html is where I get them all. While it's not quite as high quality as maybe an FK or QA1, the bang for the buck is undeniable. RuffStuff has been amazing to deal with decent prices. My "ball joints" are actually 1" uniballs like you commonly find on an off-road truck. The idea was they are incredibly strong, easy to fabricate with, and a breeze to service. If you are building from scratch it is worth a consideration. But know that a ball joint seats more solid with it's tapered shaft. I would say to evaluate based on what spindle you use. I had no off-the-shelf options.



Don't worry, this entire project is an exercise in how much I can overthink stuff. Haha. I set everything right in the middle of the adjustment range I wanted. That way I could tune more or less from my base settings. That would be where you'd need to decide what you want your starting or "base" settings to be. But to be fair, I'm cutting these arms off in favor of a more simplified setup. Check back after this weekend and I'll have some pics up.

Is how you mounted the uniball technically in single sheer? I’m just curious, because I thought about doing something similar, but saw that it is recommended to run the the joint between two mounts in case a heim joint fails.

[Sbeck09]

Is how you mounted the uniball technically in single sheer? I’m just curious, because I thought about doing something similar, but saw that it is recommended to run the the joint between two mounts in case a heim joint fails.

Yeah you are kinda right. And with a standard heim joint I'd always go double sheer. I've seen these uniballs put on way heavier vehicles in way harsher environments so I don't really sweat it in this case. Uniballs are designed to take significantly higher loads than a normal heim joint.

Exhibit A:

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Camburg has A LOT on the line if this fails. Yet you can clearly see they use it to directly replace the upper ball joint of a current production F150 that is expected to be used off road.

Exhibit B:

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FJ Cruiser lower control arm from a different reputable company. You can plainly see it setup in single sheer. My mind says those are both way harsher scenarios. But if you know different or better, please say so now. I haven't figured out how to mount my lower in double sheer or it would already be done.

[Ddkeeler]

I will have to look into these uniballs some more. They definitely have more visuAl appeal than a traditional ball joint. I’m really digging your build, can’t wait for you to have it up and running!

[Sbeck09]

Had another visit from the UPS guy. It's basically a daily occurrence lately. He will definitely be back again tomorrow. Haha.

Here is a teaser of what's in store for this weekend's task on this beast....

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I also need to head up to the engine builder tomorrow afternoon. I'm gonna snap a few pics for you guys before it goes completely together this week. It's at about the 50% mark with all the machining done. He ended up doing more porting than anticipated on the heads and lower intake. Can't wait! We're gonna make some POWER.

[Sbeck09]

Well the fun of cutting up my hard work has passed and I'm soooo happy with the new upper control arms.

But first an update from my trip to see the engine progress and fork over more money. Brian has been pretty backed up with work and I've been pretty transparent about my slow pace so he hasn't rushed. The motor will be completed for me to pick up within a week though. I'm stoked! I can't wait to light it up.:drive1:

Block was sitting ready for all the bearings which were right there. I'm next in line now.

162834

There is the stupid crank that took an eternity to show up.

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The heads look awesome. He touched about 90% of the ports and they are HUGE. This thing is gonna breathe. My custom cam should eat it up. All the parts were ready for final assembly. He just wants to check final piston to valve clearance first.

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What really matters is how much I got done. I'm starting to feel a little time crunch with all the work Ive done 3-4x now. This suspension has kicked my ass thoroughly, but I am feeling like it's pretty on point. The main thing was to get the new upper control arms built. This should have been what I did from the beginning. THANK YOU to everyone that chimed in about these parts.

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I was concerned about how heavy duty this stuff was when I looked at the pics online. Well damn. It's all so much beefier in person. The mounts are 1/2" steel plate and the arms are freaking heavy duty. I have no concern about these holding up. I went with the Joe's arms since they are dual ball bearing on each side and offered the little mounting plate for me to make my own arms. It's all fully rebuild-able. It all worked flawlessly together. Now I can shim and adjust each individual part without affecting other adjustments. And it's sooo fast and easy. I'm actually excited to set this up for the track. Best part, through 4" of suspension cycle I get 3 degrees of camber gain (is that good/bad?) and ZERO caster change. I'm calling this a win.

Somehow I forgot to snap a photo, but you can see that I revised my lower arms. I stole the layout from Cortex S197 arms. Looks like this gained me just under 1" of inboard wheel clearance so I shouldn't have any more tire rub at full lock. For the custom wheels, I'll add the extra width to the outside so I don't even have to worry about it. These will be getting a bunch more reinforcement to deal with the stresses of potholes.

All that's left is to bevel the upper arm mounts so I can weld them in really solid. Then disassemble, clean, and paint it all. Hell, I'm so proud of these I might even do some color rather than standard black. What do you guys think?

[cornfedbill]

2 thumbs up. Looking very good.

[frink84]

Somehow I forgot to snap a photo, but you can see that I revised my lower arms. I stole the layout from Cortex S197 arms. Looks like this gained me just under 1" of inboard wheel clearance so I shouldn't have any more tire rub at full lock. For the custom wheels, I'll add the extra width to the outside so I don't even have to worry about it. These will be getting a bunch more reinforcement to deal with the stresses of potholes.

All that's left is to bevel the upper arm mounts so I can weld them in really solid. Then disassemble, clean, and paint it all. Hell, I'm so proud of these I might even do some color rather than standard black. What do you guys think?

Woohoo! That gain is badass and the rest of the parts look burly as hell. IMHO black or body color for the arms.

[cornfedbill]

What is your kingpin inclination angle? From the photos it looks to be reasonably high.

How does it compare to your design caster angle?

If your kingpin inclination angle is greater than your caster angle, turning the outside wheel inward (in a corner) will reduce your static camber. So many production spindles have a kingpin inclination angle that is 12-15 degrees, but only a few degrees of caster.

I am setting my front suspension to have about 12 degrees of static caster. This is about equal to the kingpin inclination. But I have slugs in the control arm shafts like you do and can add more caster if needed.

[Sbeck09]

Woohoo! That gain is badass and the rest of the parts look burly as hell. IMHO black or body color for the arms.

Not gonna do body color since it will ultimately be wrapped so I can change colors, but I did think about it. I was thinking I'd match the diff and control arms to the engine paint since they all need paint anyway.


What is your kingpin inclination angle? From the photos it looks to be reasonably high.

How does it compare to your design caster angle?

If your kingpin inclination angle is greater than your caster angle, turning the outside wheel inward (in a corner) will reduce your static camber. So many production spindles have a kingpin inclination angle that is 12-15 degrees, but only a few degrees of caster.

I am setting my front suspension to have about 12 degrees of static caster. This is about equal to the kingpin inclination. But I have slugs in the control arm shafts like you do and can add more caster if needed.

Thanks for bringing this up! I haven't really found much info on Kingpin inclination as far as what's "good" or "bad". I believe mine is about 10 degrees, but I'm having a hard time measuring it accurately. I have my base caster setting at 6 degrees with the ability to add quite a bit more. I might bump my base to 7 degrees though. If I'm understanding, I would want to reduce my kingpin angle to 6 degrees or less? Any help here is great.

[Frank ZX]

I can't wait to see this in person!!!
Great work my friend!

[cornfedbill]

Thanks for bringing this up! I haven't really found much info on Kingpin inclination as far as what's "good" or "bad". I believe mine is about 10 degrees, but I'm having a hard time measuring it accurately. I have my base caster setting at 6 degrees with the ability to add quite a bit more. I might bump my base to 7 degrees though. If I'm understanding, I would want to reduce my kingpin angle to 6 degrees or less? Any help here is great.

It's all about balance. The lower the kingpin inclination the greater the scrub radius. 10 degrees is not bad. You will want to lay out the axis through the ball joints and find where it intersects the ground. Remember that the caster changes this point also. Some say it is ideal to have zero scrub, meaning the point at which this axis contacts the ground is in the vertical plane through the centerline of the tire. I'm pretty certain few cars meet this ideal. But you don't want this to be a large amount. You can compensate with wheel offset, but then you reduce clearance to your suspension.

I would start with the caster nearly the same as your kingpin inclination and do the math. If it looks like there is a problem, then ask for input from others here or research online.

I am not an expert, but understand the basic concepts. There may be someone here with a different opinion.

[SSLance]

My kingpin inclination is just under 9 degrees and I run 9.75 degrees of caster.

[Sbeck09]

Maybe I'm confused (likely), but after reading over Scrub radius and Kingpin Inclination theory all evening and even some while I'm at work this morning (don't tell the boss), it seems like a slight negative Scrub radius is preferred in a performance application like this. Meaning the tire center-line and KPI intersect above the ground which requires a fairly high Kingpin angle. So that would mean I'm currently set about right, but I'd need to measure better to be 100% sure. I see where KPI obviously affects Scrub, but there doesn't seem to be a set standard based on caster angle vs KPI. Am I wrong?

[cornfedbill]

Maybe I'm confused (likely), but after reading over Scrub radius and Kingpin Inclination theory all evening and even some while I'm at work this morning (don't tell the boss), it seems like a slight negative Scrub radius is preferred in a performance application like this. Meaning the tire center-line and KPI intersect above the ground which requires a fairly high Kingpin angle. So that would mean I'm currently set about right, but I'd need to measure better to be 100% sure. I see where KPI obviously affects Scrub, but there doesn't seem to be a set standard based on caster angle vs KPI. Am I wrong?

Are you looking at FWD or RWD ideal geometry? FWD cars seem to like more negative scrub then RWD. I am leaning towards intersecting slightly below the ground for my build. Audi, on the other hand, is known for negative scrub radius.

Obviously, opinions do not all agree on this. I am also certain that you will find good handling cars with both negative and positive scrub radii.

Remember that camber will change the effective contact patch on the tire. Negative camber will tend to move the effective contact patch inboard - positive camber will have the opposite effect and is evil. Positive camber is always evil...

With a lot of camber and a negative scrub radius, you may find your steering wheel to be a handful on anything but the smoothest of surfaces.

Just food for thought.

[Sbeck09]

Thanks Bill. Definitely food for thought. I'll have to keep digging into this. What I was reading was mostly geared toward performance driving, but didn't state FWD or RWD. Either way I'm trying to keep my scrub minimal, but not at zero. I didn't even think about the camber change this too. I plan to have around 3 degrees of static negative camber at the track until testing proves a need to change that. Around town I'll probably have about .5 degrees of negative camber set.

[SSLance]

Psst... Performance trends... ;)

[Sbeck09]

I know, I know Lance....time for me to suck it up and get the program. I'll download the demo and see if I can do anything productive. If it works, I guess I'm spending the $250.

Be prepared for a text complaining about how I have no idea what I'm doing. Haha

[Z06killinSBF]

I'm loving this build!! The Joes products are top notch stuff.

[Sbeck09]

Thanks for checking in! I like following along with your progress too. One day I'll get to actually build a Mustang rather than putting Mustang parts on an old truck. Haha.

Yeah I'm pretty impressed with Joe's. I have no doubt their parts will tolerate any beating I give them. I should have bought their stuff from the start.

[Jaymzz]

I have learned a ton from your thread, thank you. Can't wait to see some video's of you driving it. :D

[Sbeck09]

Glad I can be of assistance even as I learn. I'm beyond antsy to get done with the frame so I can move onto simpler tasks like plumbing and wiring.

You can rest assured I'll share videos of this thing from the first start to the first win. ;-)

[CobraCommander]

I am a big fan of these 92-96 f series trucks. My dad was a parts and servicemanager through out the 90s for a small ford dealership here in Wisconsin. Almost every Saturday I would go to work with him and I would wash the new trucks on the lot. I have had 2 obs f150 s but both lifted. I have been into autocross the last few years and run a 94 Mustang Cobra, but this is right up my alley. Awesome work. Can you post a pic of the project scooter?

[Sbeck09]

I am a big fan of these 92-96 f series trucks. My dad was a parts and servicemanager through out the 90s for a small ford dealership here in Wisconsin. Almost every Saturday I would go to work with him and I would wash the new trucks on the lot. I have had 2 obs f150 s but both lifted. I have been into autocross the last few years and run a 94 Mustang Cobra, but this is right up my alley. Awesome work. Can you post a pic of the project scooter?

That's too cool! My dad would do side work at a Ford dealer to get discounts on work trucks (he was a master plumber) and I would always sit in all the trucks while he worked. We also 2 of the extended cab versions with the 302 when I was little, but I never expected to be doing this to my own. Glad you like it so far. I promise it will get even better.

Here is both of my "project scooters" but the blue one is the one you asked about and the newest addition to the fleet.

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After some simple repairs/upgrades I've had little blue up to 70mph, but it's really sketchy at those speeds on little tires. Haha. Total investment is only $650 to date. It will make a brilliant pit bike.

[Sbeck09]

Ok guys...time to share my ongoing learning experience and the cause of the delay in updates.

So after I built the new control arms I reached out to some people that are far more knowledgeable and experienced than myself on suspension design and theory. Doesn't take much to know more than me, but it's important that I get blunt feedback now so any changes can me made easily.

The main discussion was related to this:

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Look specifically at the upper and lower control arm mounts on the spindle side. Some of you already see the concern, but I learned something very important this past week. I went to a lot of trouble to verify that my upper and lower Kingpin angles were the same, but I didn't think about them needing to be along the same plane (meaning can draw a straight line through both top and bottom points). In simple terms this causes the steering the feel worse the more you push it. I'm basically asking the spindle to turn in 2 different planes at one time. I do understand geometry well enough to know I should revise this.

OK, so I looked at some different spindle options ranging from $400 up to $2200 for the pair. I want to keep the 5x4.5 Mustang bolt pattern so the front matches the rear and I have access to Mustang parts which are plentiful and usually a little less expensive. I know that these strut type spindles are the wrong tool for the job, but I keep wanting to find a way to make the upper mount line up better before I abandon what I've done. It's already got new hubs/bearings, the OEM 14" Brembos are great and only $700, and I already have these. As you can tell cost is definitely a factor. I'm thinking I'll try to make a better upper control arm mount first and if it doesn't work then the Ridetech spindles ($400 option) will do. I did also consider Crown Vic spindles, but the big brake kit is over $2000 and it has almost no real support aside from factory rebuild parts at Autozone.

Thanks to Lance's persistence I downloaded a 10 day trial of Performance Trends Suspension Analyzer. Definitely not for someone that can't measure accurately or understand what's happening with the suspension.

163083

It unfortunately can't tell that my Kingpin is misaligned, but everything else seems to show that it will have pretty decent geometry in spite of how crude I've built it. I didn't see any binding either.

As always, I welcome suggestions or discussion about this and alternatives. We all learn together, we all grow together. This is what my thread is about.

[RMMiller]

Have you seen these yet? Might not help, just looked back and saw yours are newer.

http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/13819-1987-2004-spindle-adapter-bracket/

[Sbeck09]

Have you seen these yet? Might not help, just looked back and saw yours are newer.

http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/13819-1987-2004-spindle-adapter-bracket/

That's actually where my original idea to try this came from. Griggs Racing offered an option just like it for my spindles. I can't find a photo of either at an angle that let's me see their kingpin angle. So I take it your vote is to give this a try?

[RMMiller]

That's actually where my original idea to try this came from. Griggs Racing offered an option just like it for my spindles. I can't find a photo of either at an angle that let's me see their kingpin angle. So I take it your vote is to give this a try?

I don't know, will they fit the spindles you have? Only reason I know about them is I have a set of SN95 spindles and I stumbled on to them when I was considering a home brewed strut setup for my Maverick.

[Sbeck09]

I don't know, will they fit the spindles you have? Only reason I know about them is I have a set of SN95 spindles and I stumbled on to them when I was considering a home brewed strut setup for my Maverick.

I really believe that its has to work at least as good as any other double wishbone spindle off the shelf. These companies have massive reputations on the line centered around performance vehicle handling. My brain is convinced there is a way for this to work if they can do it. No risk no, reward I suppose.

[Sbeck09]

I really hate having to concede defeat, but I think it's time.

I spent the majority of last week at Arizona Bike Week and blew off responsibility since I needed a break from everything. Don't think my mind wasn't on the truck because it very much was. I severely underestimated the difficulty of designing and fabricating an entire front suspension. And I'm not whining. I'm so proud of what I have learned so far. But as a result I am seeing the downsides to using the wrong components.

Check out this photo:

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That Rule represents the Kingpin axis if it was perfectly in line (the grove is the actual center-line). I can easily see how the struts fall along that plane when installed, but it presents a very difficult hurdle when adapting to a real upper control arm. Ideally I want my upper and lower mounting holes spaced about 11.5-12 inches apart on the spindle. In order to have clearance for the bolt to move with the upper uniball I would need to move to upper mount up to about the 14 inch mark. That's a BIG change in roll center and camber gain. So I believe it may be time to lay these strut spindles to rest and go with a real double wishbone spindle.

Now that brings me to a dilemma. If I was running a GM bolt pattern on the hubs I could pretty much have anything I want for spindles, but I'm running the 5x4.5 Ford bolt pattern and I don't want to change it as I want the entire truck to be the same (remember I have the complete S550 Mustang rear end). So I looked at a few options as I mentioned before. So far I see where you can get a different hub for the Corvette spindles, but I can't work with that upper ball joint. So those are out. The thing that keeps coming up is the Ridetech tall spindles. I can't find any measurements on these so I suppose I'll need to call and ask nicely. These seem to be a solid option for the money with plenty of reasonably priced brake kits. I'd try to make Crown Vic spindles work, but the brake kit is just too expensive.

So that's where I'm at. The engine was completed today and I worked on the frame a little, but nothing to show in pics. I'll keep working on other areas while I workout what to do for spindles.

Anyone have any bright ideas or further input here? Feel free to share. I could use the input right now. :help:

[Project Bike Truck]

Could you re-drill the GM hubs?

But if not jump on the Ridetech ones. Do it right with quality stuff now and enjoy less drama later?

[Styx1967]

Have you seen these yet? Might not help, just looked back and saw yours are newer.

http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/13819-1987-2004-spindle-adapter-bracket/

They also make a Pin Drive version of these that look like it would reduce the king pin angle if you don't mind switching to SN-95 uprights. Not sure it would be enough but might be worth looking at.

http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/12507-pin-drive-width-spindle-adapter-bracket/

Otherwise, the only other Ford uprights that I can think of are Mustang II (too small?), MN-12 Thunderbird (too tall?), or, as you said, Crown Vic. If you do the 1994 or 1995 to 1997 Thunderbird uprights you can use SN-95 brakes.

Also, here is a link to a video on a brake kit for the crown vic front. He starts talking about them at about 9 minutes. The info to find them is in the description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1dlM74JMhk

[cornfedbill]

Okay, I admit I am no expert. However, you are mounting the spindle assembly on two spherical joints. The ball has no physical "axis". That is what makes ball joints and spherical bearings so good.

What exactly is the issue with the misalignment of the two ball joint taper axes? The suspension cannot tell kinematically. The spindle will pivot about an axis through both balls regardless of the location of the mounting taper.

Can somebody explain why your current design will not work so that I, as an engineer, can understand the problem? I can understand if you are trying to reduce your kingpin inclination. But if that is not your goal. Your design should work.

[Sbeck09]

Could you re-drill the GM hubs?

But if not jump on the Ridetech ones. Do it right with quality stuff now and enjoy less drama later?

I could, but I have to beware of the diameter of the center of the hub. I'm definitely thinking about that as an option, but I hate having to buy new parts just to pay to revise them. You'd think there would be an off-the-shelf option. You hit the nail on the head with the doing stuff right the first time. That's why I'm beating up this part of the build now so I'm not cutting it apart later. The Ridetech spindles are proven in this environment so that's a big plus.


They also make a Pin Drive version of these that look like it would reduce the king pin angle if you don't mind switching to SN-95 uprights. Not sure it would be enough but might be worth looking at.

http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/12507-pin-drive-width-spindle-adapter-bracket/

Otherwise, the only other Ford uprights that I can think of are Mustang II (too small?), MN-12 Thunderbird (too tall?), or, as you said, Crown Vic. If you do the 1994 or 1995 to 1997 Thunderbird uprights you can use SN-95 brakes.

Also, here is a link to a video on a brake kit for the crown vic front. He starts talking about them at about 9 minutes. The info to find them is in the description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1dlM74JMhk

The MII stuff is known to have some geometry issues of it's own when used like I plan this truck to be, MN-12 spindles are crazy tall, and if I could find a more budget friendly way to get 14" brakes on the CV spindles that would probably be the way to go. Thanks for linking that video. I watched his channel when I was getting ready to do my IRS install. I wonder if I could fit a 4-6 piston vette caliper on the same setup he did. That would be legit.


Okay, I admit I am no expert. However, you are mounting the spindle assembly on two spherical joints. The ball has no physical "axis". That is what makes ball joints and spherical bearings so good.

What exactly is the issue with the misalignment of the two ball joint taper axes? The suspension cannot tell kinematically. The spindle will pivot about an axis through both balls regardless of the location of the mounting taper.

Can somebody explain why your current design will not work so that I, as an engineer, can understand the problem? I can understand if you are trying to reduce your kingpin inclination. But if that is not your goal. Your design should work.

OK, I have been having the hardest time explaining this when asked the same question before. Essentially you are asking the spindle to rotate on 2 different axis at one time. This creates changing geometry throughout the range of movement. So your camber and caster isn't linear, it's always changing at different rates. What I was told is the steering feels like it loses the front end "a bit" and falls over on the outside front corner.

One person said it this way to me, "When the pivot axis of the UBJ & LBJ don't line up perfectly, the spindle doesn't pivot on the KPI axis cleanly. It actually pivots on the two different ball joint axis. This makes the outside spindle (and therefore the outside front corner of the car) drop to a degree as it is steering. It makes it hard to impossible to keep a happy tire contact patch. It wants to roll over on the sidewall which unsettles the the front suspension."

[cornfedbill]

OK, I have been having the hardest time explaining this when asked the same question before. Essentially you are asking the spindle to rotate on 2 different axis at one time. This creates changing geometry throughout the range of movement. So your camber and caster isn't linear, it's always changing at different rates. What I was told is the steering feels like it loses the front end "a bit" and falls over on the outside front corner.

One person said it this way to me, "When the pivot axis of the UBJ & LBJ don't line up perfectly, the spindle doesn't pivot on the KPI axis cleanly. It actually pivots on the two different ball joint axis. This makes the outside spindle (and therefore the outside front corner of the car) drop to a degree as it is steering. It makes it hard to impossible to keep a happy tire contact patch. It wants to roll over on the sidewall which unsettles the the front suspension."

Okay, I understand what you are saying, but keep thinking about this (or overthinking it). I may just be hard-headed.

You have two balls that form an axis. The balls have no axis of rotation, only a single point. As long as you don't exceed the limits of motion, they should work.

If you are referring to having too much kingpin inclination, I can understand how that will make things get weird. You will be turning the wheel into and out of the ground so to speak.

Have you looked into Howe Racing or other circle track spindle options? They have some interesting options. Mopar midsize and AMC cars had the same Ford bolt pattern. Many there are some Mopar options. We have a few Mopar guys here that may have some suggestions.

This looks like my front subframe modifications. Once I cut into it, I had to change another thing, then another, then another. I feel like the woman who swallowed a fly. I'm now looking at eating a horse.

[Sbeck09]

Well I might have spoken too soon. Brake kits for the Ridetech spindles are basically the same price if not MORE than they CV stuff. And with the Ridetech spindles I still have to purchase steering arms and hubs.

This just isn't gonna be "cheap" no matter how I do it...

[Sbeck09]

Have you looked into Howe Racing or other circle track spindle options? They have some interesting options. Mopar midsize and AMC cars had the same Ford bolt pattern. Many there are some Mopar options. We have a few Mopar guys here that may have some suggestions.

This looks like my front subframe modifications. Once I cut into it, I had to change another thing, then another, then another. I feel like the woman who swallowed a fly. I'm now looking at eating a horse.

I have not. I don't know anything about that stuff so I wasn't even sure where to start.

Yeah this has kinda been like that. Every time I design one part of the front setup it negatively affects another area and then I have to redo it all. Now I've basically got the arms setup where they work great, but my spindles are failing me. Hopefully this is the last hurdle.

I just found out that the engine is ready to be picked up and my driveshaft is being built. I would really love to be focused on installing those and not redoing my suspension every weekend. haha

[Sbeck09]

Got a more positive call this week that was a welcome distraction from suspension design.

Just gonna leave this here......specs to come later.

163340

Duffee Motorsports did a killer job building exactly what I asked for! I can't wait to hear this fire up!:seizure:

[CobraCommander]

Got a more positive call this week that was a welcome distraction from suspension design.

Just gonna leave this here......specs to come later.

163340

Duffee Motorsports did a killer job building exactly what I asked for! I can't wait to hear this fire up!:seizure:



Bruh...... that's killer? Specs?

[cornfedbill]

Got a more positive call this week that was a welcome distraction from suspension design.

Just gonna leave this here......specs to come later.

163340

Duffee Motorsports did a killer job building exactly what I asked for! I can't wait to hear this fire up!:seizure:

163391

[Sbeck09]

I hate that things are moving so slowly with this project at the moment, but I guess that's just how it goes.

I was hoping my last ditch effort to make the spindles work right would be shown here. I'm at a point where I know I could make these strut spindles work, but it's taking too much time. We will break 100 degrees already this week here in AZ and I wanted to have already started this engine. Ugh.

163643

See it's close, but I was having trouble accurately aligning the upper and lower holes at identical angles and heights. I'm keeping them on the shelf and will one day make it work just to say I can. These will never be run on this truck. So if you were sticking around for that....sorry.

Yesterday morning I finally brought the engine home!

163644

See it's there! My motorsports addiction has resulted in the car and truck living outside so all the toys can sleep safe and sound inside. Haha. I know some of you are the same way.

As you can see compared to how it looked when ready for pick up at the builder, I got right to work bolting goodies on. Mainly to seal up any openings from dust and bugs while it waits for me to finish the frame.

163645

DUDE...I love this engine! What do you guys think of the color scheme and parts choice?

Specs:
408w
Stock 95 351w roller block bored .020 over
Scat forged 4" stroke crank
Compstar rods
Icon Pistons
ARP hardware throughout
Cammotion solid roller cam (I believe it's .611 lift, but I need to verify specs)
Comp Cams 1.6 roller rockers with their valve springs and tool steel retainers
RHS heads with full port job
Ferrea valves
Holley Hi Ram port matched to the heads

There isn't much info out there on this exact combo, but I did find a company in California that ran this intake on a slightly milder 408w and got over 600hp at the crank on 91 fuel. My heads and cam outflow theirs. I will be tuned to run both 91 and E85. I am sure that will be more than enough to help me waste tires on the street and pull hard on the track.

Spindles are due around Tuesday of this week and you guys all know I'll update accordingly.

[rixtrix1]

Have you checked the anti-dive geometry of your design as it appears the front of the upper arm is much lower than the rear, opposite of most suspensions. Certainly don't want it trying to bottom the suspension under braking. I may be in left field on this, but it just looks odd to me otherwise it's areally neat project!

[Sbeck09]

Have you checked the anti-dive geometry of your design as it appears the front of the upper arm is much lower than the rear, opposite of most suspensions. Certainly don't want it trying to bottom the suspension under braking. I may be in left field on this, but it just looks odd to me otherwise it's areally neat project!

Good eye. It's actually sitting level in the photo, but I will be changing the shims to add in some anti-dive. I set the arm level just for simplicity when I was mocking everything up. Once I get the new spindles I can better see what I need to change. Any idea on how to determine how much anti-dive to add?

[rixtrix1]

It's really hard to say without knowing all your suspension mounting points and other measurements and entering them into a program like Performance Trends, but most of the aftermarket drilled upper arm mounting plates come with the holes at 2 degrees up in front.

[cornfedbill]

With the slotted plates you can make some adjustments once the suspension is complete. You can add or decrease your anti-dive with slugs in the holes of the plates to some degree.

[Sbeck09]

It's really hard to say without knowing all your suspension mounting points and other measurements and entering them into a program like Performance Trends, but most of the aftermarket drilled upper arm mounting plates come with the holes at 2 degrees up in front.

Good to know, thanks! I figured I should weld the plates on with the arms at a neutral setting and was planning to dial in about 4 degrees with the slugs. Maybe I'll need less than I thought.


With the slotted plates you can make some adjustments once the suspension is complete. You can add or decrease your anti-dive with slugs in the holes of the plates to some degree.

Exactly. I figured out that I can add almost 7 degrees if I want. I love having adjustable slugs. Makes these changes so easy.

[Sbeck09]

Got a delivery at the beginning of the week that should get us moving quickly in the right direction.

New Ridetech spindles with a Wilwood 14" 6 piston brake/hub kit. It all looks gorgeous and I should have done this months ago. Oh well, I'm just that stubborn.

163761

I must point out that the uniballs will no longer be used (sorry Daniel) which also means that I get the redo the lower arms again! FML

The bright side, If you look at the image below you will see that The new spindles changed the angle of my lower arm in a good way. So when It's all done I can technically go up to an inch lower than I planned without totally ruining my roll center. For now this is about where it will be as the uniball holds the arm roughly where the ball joint will.

163762

163763

These will have to come back apart as I didn't have wheel bearing grease handy and everything is only hand tight. I needed to take some measurements so I can get parts coming to wrap this install up.

Since these spindles are based on the GM A body, do any of you have a good suggestion for which steering arm I should buy? And no...I'm no buying some super duper billet arms. This purchase wounded the budget pretty badly.:sick:

[Sbeck09]

Need some help real quick. Hopefully I'm overthinking again.

I was double checking my engine and transmission to verify everything is level with them so I can officially check that off the list of things to do while I wait for suspension parts and the driveshaft. After fighting all afternoon I KNOW my engine is level from side to side, but the transmission leans 2 degrees to the driver's side. Is this normal? I always thought the transmission should be level with the engine side to side. Every time I try to lift the tranny up to level it forces the engine out of level (makes sense due to them being bolted together). Do I need to not care if the transmission is perfectly level as long as it's close?

[Sbeck09]

Shoutout to Modern Driveline for quickly connecting me to someone that could answer my question above. I spoke to one of the engineers and he said my Quicktime bell housing is designed to slightly rotate my transmission. Apparently it's something that has been done with T5 type transmissions for years and there is situations where he has seen 7-17 degrees of rotation! He also said he was surprised I caught it as most people don't.

So basically I wasted 3 hours of my Sunday trying to fix a problem that didn't need to be fixed. Glad that's over. Now I can weld my mount right back where it was.

[Sbeck09]

Been a busy week and I was also waiting on parts, but i have a bit of an update finally.

164049

Obviously I've had these for a couple weeks now, but here they are loosely assembled. I still need to make sure I put it together correctly before I pack the hubs with grease and put them together for real. And for anyone running GM type spindles that wants a 5x4.5 wheel these wilwood spindles are awesome so far.

164050

Here is the new sleeve for the lower ball joints I'll need to run now (Sorry Daniel, I know we liked the uniball idea). I've gone with nicer aftermarket ball joints for a 1st gen Camaro. It's nice to finally be using off-the-shelf options.

164051

Only a couple hours of work to get them in. Ignore the gap on one side. I'll be redoing that. I couldn't get the ball joints pressed in since I don't have a press. I'll go get one this week. I'm going to be needing it for a few things soon.

Before I started on the arms loosely bolted on my Tru Turn steering arms. They look and feel great (what do I know. lol) but there is a geometry issue that now need to resolve, not to mention I have to figure out how to adapt A Body tie rods to this mustang rack. This should be fun. I'm open to suggestions.:hmm:

164052

Fingers crossed for more progress sooner rather than later.