Why change powerplants

[Northern Goat]

Please don't take this as an insult. I am just trying to understand the thought process of changing engine brands.

I feel that an engine is the soul of a car. So if you want a Chevy engine buy a Camaro, you want Pontiac power buy a FB...

I just don't understand why people feel the need to change powerplants. I love my Pontiac and I live with the fact that I pay way more for engine parts and am limited to the parts available to me. That is because I wanted a GOAT not a Chevelle.

This Red 1970 GTO is awesome and drew me to PT the second I saw it but totally lost me when I saw that the owner had cheaped out and and put in a crate engine, why not stick with your decision and out some cash into your stock powerplant? The power is there if you are willing to put in the work.

I just don't get why so many people in the PT world feel that they have to *******ize a car. Why not just buy a chevy if that is the powerplant you choose?

Sorry for the rant.

[Matt@RFR]

By your logic, you'd better stay away from ATS, GW, DSE, Wilwood,etc, etc etc. None of those brands came stock on any of these cars either. What's the difference?

Why not change the motor? I like SBC's. Allways have, and allways will. Hell, if I had a '98 Camaro, I'd toss the LS1 and throw in a SBC. That's who I am. I like my motors to try to rip my heart out through my mouth when they're idling. I consider nitrous and forced induction to be cheating. I like stiff 7 1/4", three disc clutches. I like my motors to idle no lower than 1200 RPM. I like my motors to say, "That's it?" at 8500 RPM. I like Ford Falcons. I like Chevy II's. I like '34 Ford Trucks. Guess what motor I'd put in any of those cars.

If a SBC doesn't "do it" for you, then you need more timing in it. :)

[protour_chevelle]

By your logic, you'd better stay away from ATS, GW, DSE, Wilwood,etc, etc etc. None of those brands came stock on any of these cars either. What's the difference?

Why not change the motor? I like SBC's. Allways have, and allways will. Hell, if I had a '98 Camaro, I'd toss the LS1 and throw in a SBC. That's who I am. I like my motors to try to rip my heart out through my mouth when they're idling. I consider nitrous and forced induction to be cheating. I like stiff 7 1/4", three disc clutches. I like my motors to idle no lower than 1200 RPM. I like my motors to say, "That's it?" at 8500 RPM. I like Ford Falcons. I like Chevy II's. I like '34 Ford Trucks. Guess what motor I'd put in any of those cars.

If a SBC doesn't "do it" for you, then you need more timing in it. :)
Ditto!

-Matt

[Northern Goat]

By your logic, you'd better stay away from ATS, GW, DSE, Wilwood,etc, etc etc. None of those brands came stock on any of these cars either. What's the difference?

Why not change the motor? I like SBC's. Allways have, and allways will. Hell, if I had a '98 Camaro, I'd toss the LS1 and throw in a SBC. That's who I am. I like my motors to try to rip my heart out through my mouth when they're idling. I consider nitrous and forced induction to be cheating. I like stiff 7 1/4", three disc clutches. I like my motors to idle no lower than 1200 RPM. I like my motors to say, "That's it?" at 8500 RPM. I like Ford Falcons. I like Chevy II's. I like '34 Ford Trucks. Guess what motor I'd put in any of those cars.

If a SBC doesn't "do it" for you, then you need more timing in it. :)


Your obviously missing the point. I have tons of aftermarket goodies in my car, but suspension, steering and brake tidbits do not make a car, after all most GM's shared all those stock parts. The engine is what seperates a Chevy from a Pontiac, a Pontiac from an Olds, and so.

I'm not knocking Chevy power what so ever. All I am sayig is that if Chevy power is what you want buy a Chevy.

[protour_chevelle]

Your obviously missing the point. I have tons of aftermarket goodies in my car, but suspension, steering and brake tidbits do not make a car, after all most GM's shared all those stock parts. The engine is what seperates a Chevy from a Pontiac, a Pontiac from an Olds, and so.

I'm not knocking Chevy power what so ever. All I am sayig is that if Chevy power is what you want buy a Chevy.

Your thoughts are pretty specific to a certain crowd... Look in the LSX Hybrid section on LS1tech. You name it, it has an LS1. From WRX's, RX7's, Volvo's, Miata's, Trikes, Mustangs, etc...

Some people like the style of a car, but sometimes its just more feasable(sp?) to run a different powerplant.

Sure a numbers matching engine is cool, but IMO its not worth it to me to spend the numbers matching prices for average performance.

-Matt

[ProTeal55]

My 2cents on the topic....

I think it makes sense to get as much Horsepower per dollar as you can , and this is done with a Chevy based motor. Weather it be a SBC or BBC.

While I think it is impressive that some dude makes
800 N/A horsepower from a Poncho motor , just think how much power he could of made from a BigBlock Chevy ?

Prob. allot more.........

[Northern Goat]

I'm not a numbers guy. I have modified my car with amny aftermarket parts, I just keep the block and heads Pontiac (not #'s matching). I guess I am a bit of a dinosaur when it comes to this issue. I always respect the time, effort and craftmanship that goes into a car even if I have issues with it, so don't get me wrong. It just hurts to see a perfectly good pontiac get ruined by an engine swap. Your on the good side buddy everyone wants your power. Just thinj how it would feel to see people swapping Hyundai motors into Chevys. LOL.

[GBodyGMachine]

I have a regal with a chevy powerplant. I am not a huge fan of the monte carlo, but wanted a G-Body. I run a 383 stroker, a great motor in my opinion.
I have always been a fan of chevy. Correct me if Im wrong, but they were the first company to make one horsepower per cubic inch.
I love the car, and it always makes people look twice. I like my car, my way, whether it be useing chevy powerplants in buicks, or bear aftermarket brakes, or a twin turbo setup.
Just my $0.02.

Jeff

PS. My lic plate is REGALSS

[Ralph LoGrasso]

When building your car for improved performance and capability (pro-touring), why not upgrade the engine to something more efficient with respect to both power and the monetary facet? :dunno:

[Steve1968LS2]

Actually there is no such thing anymore as a CHEVY or PONTIAC engine.. they are all GM CORPORATE engines..

So, by that logic, Bill's Goat is running a GM engine.. Just like a new GTO or 4th gen Trans Am does..

:)

[Roger Poirier]

I'm not a numbers guy. I have modified my car with amny aftermarket parts, I just keep the block and heads Pontiac (not #'s matching). I guess I am a bit of a dinosaur when it comes to this issue. I always respect the time, effort and craftmanship that goes into a car even if I have issues with it, so don't get me wrong. It just hurts to see a perfectly good pontiac get ruined by an engine swap. Your on the good side buddy everyone wants your power. Just thinj how it would feel to see people swapping Hyundai motors into Chevys. LOL.

Chevy Guys,

You have to own a older (muscle car) Pontiac car to understand. These cars have more character to them then most. Nicer interiors, better looking body styles, more detail from GM was put into the car. A lot more history to the muscle car era then others. However, they are not the fastest. It just goes with the territory. Pontiac car, Pontiac engine. Old school, yes, but I like it that way with these cars.

R.P.

[Northern Goat]

That is exactly the point I am making. By changing engines you totally destroythe soul of that cat. It's not as big an issue with cars produced after the late 70's because we went towards the 'corporate engine", but the engine is very important to the cars of the earlier era.

Do you really think there would be so many new "GTOs" collecting dust on dealer lots if they had truly respected history, instead of buying Wangers off with a new toupee and hoping we would swallow this car up.

[Bill Howell]

I can only speak for myself, but here is my take on the subject. Being from the old school I know where you are coming from, I have been part of the chalk mark, # matching crowd myself.
However, as my signature says, protouring is to improve things, all things about our cars. When I started the goat project, there was no motor, or at least one I was interested in using. The LS stuff is what is hot right now and readily avalible. As Steve said, LS is corporate, not brand specific. I remember in 1977 buying Pontiacs new with Oldsmobile engines, and visa versa. Or both with chevy engines.
Anyway, not only was I looking for performance with the goat, I wanted gas mileage too. What better way to accomplish all this than with a LS motor.
To argue an LS is not Pontiac is pretty weak, since the Fourth gen cars came with them from 98-03.
I guess it comes down to this, there is no wrong way to build your car, as long as it is safe. So whatever floats your boat is fine, just respect the next guy the same way you want his respect. I really see no difference in aftermarket brakes or suspension parts or engine choice. All these cars are 30 years old or more, so not many will have the parts they left the factory with anyway. I want to replace my old, worn out parts with the best I can afford, the most modern I can afford. The goat got an LS because if fit that criteria. :icon996:

[Matt@RFR]

Just thinj how it would feel to see people swapping Hyundai motors into Chevys.

So tell me, what are your thoughts on putting a 455 in a Hyundai? I happen to have plans to do exactly that, except with a SBC.

The thing you fail to realise is that you asked a "help me understand your opinion" question, but you're still trying to defend your opinion. That won't work dude.

In any case, it's just a bunch of opinions and personal preferences. You'll get 10 different answers, and all 10 are correct answers.

Someday, I'm gonna go to the Mopar Nats with a Mopar of some sort with a Ford 9", a SBC, and anything else that I can think of that isn't a Mopar product, just to piss those folks off. Why? Because I can, and because that's what makes me happy. If you're happy with you poncho stuff, just stick with it and don't try to understand car-*******izing people like me.

[redsand]

Owning a 77 and 80 trans am, I can attest to what it cost to keep the motor pontiac. It was a significantly more expensive to build the motor than a chevy, but it was just a choice I made. I have been to several pontiac shows where if you are not all pontiac(Older cars) you were shoned from the field. I honestly did it because I did not want to screw with the motor mounts!! and it came with a 301 non turbo!! Simple as that.

I wouldn't say that pontiacs are any more detailed than others. Sometimes a little more cheesy than camaros. I know you guys are speaking about a older cars, but I can honestly say that if smokey and the bandit was filmed with a camaro with a special striping package and a scoop, we would be seeing these cars @ 10,000 + like the current trans ams.

Honestly it comes to reliability and tuning. I would much rather have a 502, built and dynoed with a warranty than my 400.

[Matt@RFR]

These cars have more character to them then most. Nicer interiors, better looking body styles, more detail from GM was put into the car. A lot more history to the muscle car era then others. ...and the first thing I would do to a car like that is cut the floor completely out and sell all the interior and suspension. :) All that matters to me is if I like the body style....the rest will be my own ideas and preferences.


Pontiac car, Pontiac engine. Old school, yes, but I like it that way with these cars. A happy car owner/builder is what's important. That's it. And I'm glad you've found that sweet spot for yourself.


By changing engines you totally destroythe soul of that cat. Who's soul is more important, yours or the cars? My particular soul requires a minimum 13:1 SBC. Yours evidently requires a poncho motor in a poncho car. Bitchin. I'm glad we got that cleared up.

[parsonsj]

I used to own a 69 Pontiac GTO. It was probably my favorite car with a 400 and 4 speed. I ported the heads, put in a cam, rebuilt the bottom end, etc. All this in the late 70s/early 80s. I loved that car! When I saw Andrew Borodin's 70, it made me miss it even more.

That being said, if I ever get another one, I'm tossing that lousy Pontiac engine and swapping in a BBC or an LSx.

Why? Because the soul of a car doesn't exist. There is no such thing. It's all in your mind. And I know (it's a fact) that a BBC or an LSx is superior technology to the Pontiac engines of the 60s and 70s. But that's just me. :)

jp

[Northern Goat]

Thanks for the little chat. I hope Matt does well at the Mopar Nats.

I do appreciate the work you guys do and the advice you have given me to date.

P.S. If anyone wants to unload a Ponco motor you know who to call.

[zbugger]

So, is it wrong that I want to put a supercharged northstar v-8 in my old '65 Buick Special? If you want to take away the "soul" of a car, modify the body to death, or better yet, crush it. That will kill it. Putting a different engine in the car is just that. Putting a different engine in the car. Now, that's just my view. You are certainly allowed to have your own views and ideas.

[Matt@RFR]

I think, wait.....yeah, I think we just had ourselves the very first 'opinion' thread that didn't turn into a pissing match. Nice!


I hope Matt does well at the Mopar Nats. I'd do better bringing a Vespa. :) I couldn't care less about trophies or recognition anyway.....I wonder how much those trophies would go for on ebay???

Your last post read like a fairwell post. I hope it isn't, but if it is, I hope you take away the fact that everybody agrees that you're car is perfect with that poncho bad boy under the hood. It's perfect for you, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Group hug guys?









































Fags. :)

[Damn True]

What if you took an LSx out of a new GTO? Would that keep your vehicular chakra in harmony?

[Steve1968LS2]

What if you took an LSx out of a new GTO? Would that keep your vehicular chakra in harmony?

THat was my point.. there is NO SUCH THING as a Chevy or Pontiac motor anymore.. putting an LS1 or LS2 into a old GTO is akin to putting in a Pontiac motor..

There are only GM corporate motors these days..

So I say go for it.. besides.. I hate rules, must be why I have never gotten into restoring cars..

[Bill Howell]

Thanks for the little chat. I hope Matt does well at the Mopar Nats.

I do appreciate the work you guys do and the advice you have given me to date.

P.S. If anyone wants to unload a Ponco motor you know who to call.

LOL, Like Matt said, I hope this is not a fairwell speech. No one is upset, but you did ask why. I knew when I built my car I would ruffle feathers with the purists. I really doubt I ever go over the the Pontiac Nationals or a Pontiac website because I am sure I would not be welcomed. However, at SEMA, a group of purist showed up at the car one day and really gave the car a once over. When they saw the whole car and understood the total package, they agreed that the LS was the right choice for my car. Again, everyone is entitled to their own choice, especially when they are spending their money. We certainly welcome everyone here, regardless of engine, or for that matter, car choice. Thank goodness, we are finally getting more here than first gen camaros.
Now, how do you think the Mopar guys will handle me putting a new gen 6.1/425hp hemi in a 66 Belvedere. LOL

[parsonsj]

NG,

You'll have a big advantage on me if I sell you the original engine out of my next 69 GTO: you'll think its worth a lot more than me, so you'll get a better deal!

Anyway, I've got no problem with people wanting to keep part of their cars "stock". It ranges all the way from the red stripe tire boys to those who simply want the engine brand to match the body brand.

I consider the whole car as something I can improve. Suspension, brakes, tires, wheels, frame, body, interior, gages, and engine. All of 'em are up for grabs. I only limit myself by my time, skill, and money. Especially money.

jp

[69protour]

I think this is why OUR hobby is so cool! Every one of us whether it be male or female, young or old, has his or her own view, thought, dream, or vision on what they want in a car, truck or whatever vehicle they choose to modify, fix up, mini tub, pro street, lower, lift, or any other neat things they can think of doing. That at the end of their build, will love it and enjoy it and make other poeple stop and say WOW, thats different! If everyone did the same thing to their rides, man would that be boring! Enough said, lets all enjoy each others dreams and wishes, lifes to short to knit pick about stuff like this. P.S. Believe me, I'm not out to pick on Northern Goat or anyone else. :grouphug:

[parsonsj]

Yeah, well, this thread is bringing back all those GTO withdrawal symptoms again. I really love those cars. It's something about the hidden headlights and hoodscoop, I think.

jp

[Bill Howell]

It's something about the hidden headlights and hoodscoop,

jp


Its not too late yet. You can always fab something up for the Chevyll
It's name is llmuch fab anyway right. :lmao:

[parsonsj]

Lol! If I cut one thing on II Much, David Sloan will drive up here and shoot me!

jp

[Roger Poirier]

That is exactly the point I am making. By changing engines you totally destroythe soul of that cat. It's not as big an issue with cars produced after the late 70's because we went towards the 'corporate engine", but the engine is very important to the cars of the earlier era.

Do you really think there would be so many new "GTOs" collecting dust on dealer lots if they had truly respected history, instead of buying Wangers off with a new toupee and hoping we would swallow this car up.

FYI - Hey, Jims 69 GTO Judge is at www.motorcitysteel.net getting some work done where my car is at.

[Roger Poirier]

I used to own a 69 Pontiac GTO. It was probably my favorite car with a 400 and 4 speed. I ported the heads, put in a cam, rebuilt the bottom end, etc. All this in the late 70s/early 80s. I loved that car! When I saw Andrew Borodin's 70, it made me miss it even more.

That being said, if I ever get another one, I'm tossing that lousy Pontiac engine and swapping in a BBC or an LSx.

Why? Because the soul of a car doesn't exist. There is no such thing. It's all in your mind. And I know (it's a fact) that a BBC or an LSx is superior technology to the Pontiac engines of the 60s and 70s. But that's just me. :)

jp

JP and others,

No ones arguing the technology end of things or its benefits. Its kind of weird, but I enjoy having my Pontiac engine in my GTO. Its almost non existent to have a Pro-touring car with a real Pontiac old school motor. To each is own I have always said. What ever floats your boat and works for you.

R.P.

[Mean 69]

This is a funny and interesting thread. It basically defines the state of hot-rodding right now, in our little micro-cosm (how the hell do you spell that?), we are pretty much on the cutting edge of modifying cars these days, in every regard. On one hand, I can completely relate to the soul and original integrity of a car by leaving the stock type muscle and other things intact (interior, etc). On the other hand, and I can switch in a femto-second, I can also relate to cutting the crap out of a car and installing all new stuff.

Just like the question of "what is Pro Touring," there is no right answer. Totally an individual issue, and no one should be offended by any one else's decision. Me? In the case of Pontiac, I personally HATE the powerplants due to some stupid a$$ issue with a guy I knew 20 years ago, totally unreasonable, but still there (kind of like my loathing for the Steelers, sorry). Love the cars, hate the motors, I just can't help it. I LOVE the 65 GTO though, and will hopefully be lucky enough someday to own one. On the other hand, I can't bring myself to pull the 440 out of the new project we bought (68 Satellite, yahoo baby!!!!), for another totally unreasonable issue, which again, I have no objective basis on. New HEMI makes great power, and is a bunch lighter, but doesn't feel "right?"

Said it before, I'll say it again, and I don't even care if anyone hears or cares. Build your own car, the way you want, not to impress others. You're the one that needs to enjoy the journey, and only you can define what it is that is "right."

Mark

[JamesJ]

This is a funny and interesting thread. It basically defines the state of hot-rodding right now, in our little micro-cosm (how the hell do you spell that?), we are pretty much on the cutting edge of modifying cars these days, in every regard. On one hand, I can completely relate to the soul and original integrity of a car by leaving the stock type muscle and other things intact (interior, etc). On the other hand, and I can switch in a femto-second, I can also relate to cutting the crap out of a car and installing all new stuff.

Just like the question of "what is Pro Touring," there is no right answer. Totally an individual issue, and no one should be offended by any one else's decision. Me? In the case of Pontiac, I personally HATE the powerplants due to some stupid a$$ issue with a guy I knew 20 years ago, totally unreasonable, but still there (kind of like my loathing for the Steelers, sorry). Love the cars, hate the motors, I just can't help it. I LOVE the 65 GTO though, and will hopefully be lucky enough someday to own one. On the other hand, I can't bring myself to pull the 440 out of the new project we bought (68 Satellite, yahoo baby!!!!), for another totally unreasonable issue, which again, I have no objective basis on. New HEMI makes great power, and is a bunch lighter, but doesn't feel "right?"

Said it before, I'll say it again, and I don't even care if anyone hears or cares. Build your own car, the way you want, not to impress others. You're the one that needs to enjoy the journey, and only you can define what it is that is "right."

Mark

I agree...

:cheers: :thankyou: :cheers:

[Northern Goat]

I think, wait.....yeah, I think we just had ourselves the very first 'opinion' thread that didn't turn into a pissing match. Nice!


Your last post read like a fairwell post.

No, definitely not my last post. I just wanted to have a lively chat and see where you guys are coming from. I too am glad this didn't turn into a pissing match.

I see what you guys are doing, where you are coming from and you guys are the reason guys like me are leaving the stock scene and changing our views.

I hear what you guys are saying about your GM Corporate Engines. Maybe one day I will drop one in a Regal or something. Just not a GTO.

BTW, Bill corp engine or not your Convertible is SWEEEEEEEEEEET.


Later

[Bill Howell]

Thanks, btw, the original engine in my car was a 326! Hopefully that will clear things up for a true Goat guy. :cheers:

[ACEFOOTER]

I love the around town torque of the 400 but I want the weight savings and higher revs the LSx has to offer. Easy 1+hp/ci, junk yard fuel injection, and smaller package. The best part is if I miss a shift and scatter the engine, I won't have killed my #'s matching engine. No I don't need to sell it either, there is always room for another engine under my bench! That being said if some one has a free all aluminum Pontiac Motor that will turn 7000 rpm for me I'll forget all about the LSx.

If it helps the car pull MORE G's in ANY direction, it's Pro-Touring

[Jim Nilsen]

Ok , I have sooo much room that I just went all dreamy and thought about one of those 16 cylinder engines those guys make, can't remember their name but it was way cool to have a v16 in the car in my imagination. It would fit, heavy as hell but it could pull its own weight.
Then on another night while having tooo many beers I really fell in love with that Duttweiler Buick TT that had 1100HP and all of the room was there for it. It was lightweight even looked killer in the ol engine bay. I think most would have forgotten about it being a Buick since it would have had BIG MONEY and Power written all over it.

Then there was the day when I just couldn't get over the article on the Hennesey Viper engine and thought so much about how it would get me to 200mph and fill up the engine bay and have sooo many people talking about the car ,good and bad , that I was laughing at how many magazines would want to feature it but couldn't or wouldn't or would do it just to get people to notice them.

I could personally care less what you have for an engine as long as it isn't stock, looks killer, and goes like stink. I saw a streetrod once with a Toyota Hemi in it, yes Toyota made a Hemi !! and it looked way cool.

I know where the same engine same car thing makes some feel comfortable, if the shoe fits comfortably for them then thats great for them. As far as the engine being the only thing that adds Soul to a car? I guess I had better go back to a 3 spd and an open rear end or my confirmation from the church is going to show wrath on my heathenistic ways of overdrive and spinning both tires and have mercy on my lost Soul.

This sure is interesting to see the opinions everyone and know that the majority of us only care about one thing!!!! BUILD what you can with what you got or know, the way you like.

I sure love seeing ingenuity or is that Enginuity when it comes to building a car.

Jim Nilsen

[andrewb70]

No, definitely not my last post. I just wanted to have a lively chat and see where you guys are coming from. I too am glad this didn't turn into a pissing match.

I see what you guys are doing, where you are coming from and you guys are the reason guys like me are leaving the stock scene and changing our views.

I hear what you guys are saying about your GM Corporate Engines. Maybe one day I will drop one in a Regal or something. Just not a GTO.

BTW, Bill corp engine or not your Convertible is SWEEEEEEEEEEET.


Later


So let me get this straight....Its OK to put a "corporate" engine in a Buick but not a GTO?

Every Pontiac purist sounds like a teenager that just got his first Mazda RX7 and finds out that I have a "corporate" engine in my RX7. They start talking about the "soul" of a car and how I ripped it out. They carry on and on and on and on and on.............

Give me a break already. Cars are just a mix of metal, plastic and rubber. They do not have a SOUL! Cars do have personality, but it certainly is not defined by the powerplant. A car doesn't even know what engine is in it, nor does the engine know what name is on the outside of the car.

Andrew

P.S. Your welcome for the inspiration.

[Derek69SS]

I love Andrew's GTO. I think the BBC is way cool, but I also feel pontiac power would be a "bonus" to the coolness of the car, even if it made less power with more cost... It's only my opinion, kind of like how any 58-64 chevy is "cooler" with a 348/409 W-engine than a SB or BB.

I like to see things like Flathead Fords, early Chrysler Hemi's, and Buick Nailheads in old street-rods, even though you can make more power cheaper with a SBC. Why? I just think it's cool, despite the performance.

Part of Hot-Rodding is better performance. The other part of Hot-Rodding is personalizing your car the way you want it. Some guys value one more than the other, and others go crazy with both.

I'm sure Andrew put a lot of consideration into his engine choice, and he picked the most practical way to meet his performance goals, heritage be damned... can't fault a guy for that.

[Northern Goat]

Andrew,

I think us "Pontiac purists" view swapping an engine as ruining a vehicle we hold in high regard and lust for, but we don't care if its done to another make. You got to remember that most Pontiac guys are extremely loyal to their brand. I can name 10 guys I know that haven't owned anything other than Pontiacs or GMC trucks. My GP GXP is my 4th GP and my 10th Pontiac Daily driver, I would still be driving a GMC if they made an Avalanche ( so I had to go Chev. on that one).

I know a lot of purists actually drive people way from Pontiacs, I'm not one of them. Since my core group of friends are all Pontiac guys, I probably take more grief than even you have over the PT theme, even though I have a Pontiac engine.

I'm here to learn from you guys and support PT, I'm not about knocking anyone. And for the record your GOAT was a great inspiration to me. Your car is why I'm building a 70 for my friends brother with Baer 4 wheel disks, GW, Kiesler 5 Speed conversion and other Goodies. I'm even going to paint it a Porsche Silver and put 18's on it. The only thing I haven't changed is the engine, it is a 455 with ported E heads.

[gEtyOpAPiOn]

How About Using An Ls1 Out Of A *pontiac Firebird* Lol Will That Make Us All Happy ?

[JLM]

I love my poncho mill. I've never driven anything like it that compares. Theres' just something about it.

With that said I'm not above a motor swap. Though I don't currently have the funds for such a build, I'd love to eventually go deeper in my 69 Firebird and build an LS2/T56 combo for it.

[paul67]

Think how many times Henry Ford spun in his grave when a Chevy engine's gone into a Ford street rod, it would take years for him to stop spinning.
paul67

[Matt@RFR]

Paul, cruise a divisional or national NHRA race sometime. I think the last numbers I heard were that 98% of other-than-Chevy bodied cars were running either a BBC or SBC.

[JoshStratton]

Lets take this back to the beginning. I remember just the other (insert chimes and wavy screen now) day...day...day...day...

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=11952

[Bigblue73]

Hey Matt - How many Mopars do you see at NHRA events that have a Chevy stuck in it. Fact - Putting a chevy in a mopar still won't make it any faster!!

Pure and simple - best bang for the buck, and does it fit into theme of the car. Imagine a LSX/T56 in a Challenger. :machine:Someone may get hurt.

Tony

[andrewb70]

Mmmmm....all this talk makes me want to put a Nissan engine in my GTO. :poke:

Andrew

[JoshStratton]

I honestly don't see what the big deal is...if it isnt your car then why argue about it? Like Andrew said, they are just a mix of metal, plastic and rubber. Seriously, not a big deal.

[Steve Chryssos]

Throw a Chevy engine in a Pontiac with a Viper trans and a Ford 9". Then add seats out of a BMW M3. And don't forget to add a nice small Mitsubishi alternator and a Harley Davidson sticker in the rear window. Then park it in the garage next to a bone stock 69 Lincoln.

Chevy in a Pontiac; Pontiac in a Chevy. It's all good. They call it hot rodding. Cross platform swaps have been around as long as there have been hot rods.

[dgumoe]

my drag car is a pontiac with a SBC, and it actually did have a real pontiac mill in it to begin with. its also got a ford 9", the paint scheme includes, viper yellow, viper blue, prowler purple and international harvester magenta. the cars name is brutus, but we also call it identity crisis.

[Norm Peterson]

Please don't take this as an insult. I am just trying to understand the thought process of changing engine brands.

. . .

I just don't get why so many people in the PT world feel that they have to *******ize a car. Why not just buy a chevy if that is the powerplant you choose?

Sorry for the rant.No apologies necessary.

Because the name or part number that's cast on the engine block is one of its least important performance parameters. Once you've gone aftermarket with cam, pistons, rods, intake, exhaust, and heads and then machined the block and crank for anything other than minimal clean-up of age-related distortion and wear it's lost a bit of its OE heritage anyway. And if my first choice in replacement wasn't up to the task that I was after, well, funds permitting, I'd just yank that and try something else (so there isn't necessarily anything sacred about Chevy engines either).

For that matter, I'm not inherently any more concerned about a car's model name or even its make name beyond the fact that those pieces of information have to show up here and there on the title/registration/insurance paperwork and that they do tend to simplify the exchange of useful information.

Norm
(somewhere out there in the realm of street-fighterdom)

[CHILI442]

I'm with ya Northern Goat. Chevy motors are boring and I don't care if it's cheaper. I didn't get into this hobby because it's cheap. If I wanted a cheap hobby I would buy a pair of rollerblades, and if I wanted a chevy powered car I would buy a chevelle.

Put a SBC in this? Yeah right........

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2005/12/side_front442_2-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2005/12/2005_0422Image0001-1.jpg

[yody]

Well I have a pontiac with a chevy motor, viper transmission, mitsubishi seats(really recaros), Corvette and camaro brakes, corvette wheels, and probably some other stuff that didn't come with teh car. Who cares?? I had a pontiac 400, it ran really good, no problems with it ever, but it leaked oil like no other(rebuilt it twice with same leaks) and it was heavy as hell. Did I plan to put my 454 in it? no, it just happened, and I could really care less. Yes I would love to build an all aluminum 4.500 bore 4.00 stroke with long pontiac rods, Pontiac motor with fuel injection(not sure if that bore/stroke combo is even available?) but that would probably cost about $20,000................... I could do the same thing with a BBC for about $13,000-$15,000 probably even less

[derekf]

The LS1 going in my El Camino came from a TA. I reckon that makes me one of the few that's going the other way - Pontiac mill in a Chevy.

If you consider an LS1 in a TA a Pontiac engine, that is.

[Roger Poirier]

At least we all agree to disagree without fighting. Thats progress!
LOL.

R.P.

[JoshStratton]

I saw this somewhere (hope it doesnt offend someone):

Fighting on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics... even if you win, you're still retarded...

[Northern Goat]

I'm offended.

Let's fight.

[JoshStratton]

:box:

[BonzoHansen]

Less Filling!:cheers:
Tastes great!:cheers:
Less Filling!:cheers:
Tastes great!:cheers:
Less Filling!:cheers:
Tastes great!:cheers:
Less Filling!:cheers:
Tastes great!:cheers:
Less Filling!:cheers:
Tastes great!:cheers:


...I think reading this made me drunk...:Alchy:

[rattus]

At least for a streetable 500+ hp motor I'm not so convinced that chevys cost significantly less than an equivalently equiped pontiac. When I was planning to rebuild/replace my 69 firebird motor I looked into switching to a BBC, but found that the price would be just about the same to rebuild my pontiac. The pontiac rebuild came in at $8200 (461c.i., 525 hp / 526 ft-lb, stroked crank, forged pistons/rods, cnc ported alum heads, alum intake, roller cam, stainless full roller rockers, etc. The only thing I kept from the old 400 motor was the block). The zz502 is $7500 + freight + new cam + new rockers, etc would have put the crate motor $$ at or above the pontiac rebuild, and with the pontiac I got a custom precision blueprinted rebuild.

IMO the only drawback to building pontiac motors is the lack of forged cranks. For a 500 - 600 hp motor it's not really a problem because the currently available cast steel cranks can handle it, but for higher hp (nitrous or forced induction), $$$ billet cranks are the only option.

I've come to have a certain disdain for crate motors, especially after watching, Foose, Boyd, bike build shows. I mean these builders spend all this time customizing various parts of the projects (which are mostly cosmetic) then they plunk in crude mass produced cookie cutter crate engines and tout themselves as being cutting edge fabricators / modifiers. To me, an engine makes up at least 50 - 60% of the personality of a project, its the main source of what makes the vehicle carry out it's primary function (then 35-45% suspension and 5% or so cosmetic).

[Travis B]

I've come to have a certain disdain for crate motors, especially after watching, Foose, Boyd, bike build shows. I mean these builders spend all this time customizing various parts of the projects (which are mostly cosmetic) then they plunk in crude mass produced cookie cutter crate engines and tout themselves as being cutting edge fabricators / modifiers.

well watching overhaulin and american hot rod doesn't do either builder justice. Of course foose is going to use a crate motor in the overhaulin shows there is not hardly anytime to build an engine. Plus crate motors have a lot going for them lots of power for a reasonable price and they ship the next day!

[Matt@RFR]

Hey Matt - How many Mopars do you see at NHRA events that have a Chevy stuck in it. Fact - Putting a chevy in a mopar still won't make it any faster!!

I'll make one revision to my statements: A 440 based motor is the only other platform I'd consider. Attached is picture of a dyno'd 1180hp 440 based motor. I do believe that if I were to build a 440, I'd make it a point to put it in a Chevy or a Ford bodied car. :)

[JoshStratton]

Hey Matt, do you guys have a website? I see you are a sponsor, but you dont have a thumbnail on the right side.

[Norm Peterson]

At least for a streetable 500+ hp motor I'm not so convinced that chevys cost significantly less than an equivalently equiped pontiac.Out of curiosity, what would have been the cost for building up a 0.030" over 454 in similar fashion to the Pontiac? I certainly recognize the economics of not having to buy the block, which remains a valid reason for building up what you already have rather than starting from scratch.

I'm with you to some extent regarding crate engines. Sure, they're a decent "plug and play" option when time is critical. But they're the result of compromises that were made by others to suit a wider general consumer base. Fair enough, since you do have to be able to sell in bulk. But sort of "cookie-cutter". Additionally, since I've generally preferred engines somewhat more oversquare than even a stock bore:stroke 350 for a number of reasons, the current trend to build stroker engines out of just about everything for a bit more displacement is a wee bit out of step with the what I want in my powerplants. So they don't completely 'work' for me either.

Norm

[USAZR1]

I consider the whole car as something I can improve. Suspension, brakes, tires, wheels, frame, body, interior, gages, and engine. All of 'em are up for grabs. I only limit myself by my time, skill, and money. Especially money.
jp

That pretty much sums up my philosophy too,John.

[USAZR1]

Heck,I want to install an LT5 in my 69. Since those were built by Mercury Marine,where does that put me in the pecking order? :rotfl:
:drive2:

[andrewb70]

Heck,I want to install an LT5 in my 69. Since those were built by Mercury Marine,where does that put me in the pecking order? :rotfl:
:drive2:

On a similar note, SHO engines were made by Yamaha, does that make it any less of a Ford?

Andrew

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Pure and simple - best bang for the buck, and does it fit into theme of the car. Imagine a LSX/T56 in a Challenger. :machine:Someone may get hurt.

Tony

In all honesty -- I would love to build a Challenger with an LSX/T56. Why not go with the new hemi, right? Well, there is no tuning software yet (i.e. can't do a turbo) and the aftermarket isn't as great...

[parsonsj]

Someday, I'd love to use the SHO motor in a "little" car. Maybe a Vega or something ...

jp

[USAZR1]

An SHO in a Pinto pt'er,maybe.
An LSx in a Vega would definitely be cool. Damn,I'm getting inspired here. Need to post a photo of the V8 Vega GT I built. It would definitely fit in here.

[parsonsj]

Clint,

Me too! I had 3 Vega GTs (after the GTO in the early 80s). 2 were small block powered. I had one with a Chevy motor, Ford top-loader 4 speed, and a Mopar 8 3/4 rear. Neat little cars. I drove them daily for several years during college.

jp

[USAZR1]

Mine was a 73 GT with 70 LT-1,TH350,and Don Hardy narrowed 12 bolt w/4.56 cogs. Hardy supplied the conversion parts and I bought a four core radiator from Motion Performance. A local machine shop converted the front hubs to five lug. I ran some 14x7 & 14x10 Centerline wheels with F60 and L60 tires on the car and it was pretty low.
Had a lot of fun driving & streetracing the car. Later on,we took it down to the bare shell and installed a full Prostock-style chassis with tunnel ram'd 377",Lenco four speed,and Dana 60 rear with SRD ladder bars,Konis,and 5.86 cogs.
In retrospect,I should have kept it a streetcar. My neighbor down the street has a 73 GT I've been trying to buy for many years,though. One of these days,,,,

[StRacerDuke]

Umm, Wait.


I can't believe people are wasting time with this thread. "Why do people not use the OEM brand motor in their cars?!?!?!" and "the car looses it's soul?!?!"

good lord people. They're freeken custom cars!



If I want to put a honda motor in my 69 COPO camaro backed by a ferrari 6 speed and use a duely rear axle I'm sure going to do what ever the hell I want with it. I'm going to do what I want with my car regardless if someone else doesn't like it, even if it means letting my floppy balls flap in the wind while I'm bent over changing the exhaust pipes. Hahaha, now there's an image for yea!

Openion's are like something and not everyone is going to like what you do with your car. That's why they get to build their own!



(Wow, that was liberating!)

Edit: please don't try to work around the profanity filter.

[Beeper]

Now, how do you think the Mopar guys will handle me putting a new gen 6.1/425hp hemi in a 66 Belvedere. LOL
Good engine choice.

The soul of your car is the time and effort you spend building it, knowing every nut and bolt.

[6'9"Witha69]

My 0.02 is that BOP engines are just uglier than Chevy motors. Never mind that when Chevys and Ponchos shared platforms the Ponchos seemed too cluttered. They added lines and extra crap to the front ends which killed the lines of the cars. Given the cost to build, SBC for me! My buddy's 76 HURST TA 400 always had head gasket issues. Never mind the oil leaks!

If it weren't for all the crap I would have had to go through with my 62, it too would be sporting a Chevy motor. If for nothing else than reliability! Damn FE motors!

I am glad there is now just a corporate engine so this crap won't mean anything going forward.

[Roadrage David]

Afther reading some of these post i like to give my 2 cents to . i belive a pontiac engine should be in a pontiac it hase nothing to do with matching nr but everyting to do with identety . ecetera . farytails that a sbc is more eficient then a pontiac engine is rediculess a pontiac engine produces a hell of a lot less polution, hensh the rezen the 400/455 engine where in the f body cars till 1979 they where also the last muscle cars that where able to seriusly burn rubber in those last days . saying a sbc ore bbc gives more hp to the dollar is bs those days are long gone!!!!! the costs today are the same plenty of high perf aftermarket stuff availeble . the only rezen a olds 403 was stuck in a pontiac car was due to the fackt that GM in those days like today had a serieus $$ problem and alredy disided that all gm brands where going to run incorperated engines . pontiac buick olds engine where to ecspensife to build . the big pile of 350 olds engines needed to be used first the 350 engines where bored up to make 403 engines . pmd / pontiac motor division and all the other brand engine divisions where put together to invend a new engine line based on the sbc core witch was the "cheapest" but by far not the best engine to produce . pontiac olds chevy buick engine tegnicks where used to get the job done . in that respect i see no trouble to stick one of those in watever gm brand . but putting a chevy in a pontiac ore visa virsa is rediculess . i dont know how it is in the chevvy world but in poncho land your going to be a outcast . fr the simple rezen that these brands have been fighting it out fore decades against echother to be the best they could be . its that ficht that gave the cars there soul styling ecetera ... forgive my spelling as some of you know im dutch lololol ....

[Roadrage David]

My 0.02 is that BOP engines are just uglier than Chevy motors. Never mind that when Chevys and Ponchos shared platforms the Ponchos seemed too cluttered. They added lines and extra crap to the front ends which killed the lines of the cars. Given the cost to build, SBC for me! My buddy's 76 HURST TA 400 always had head gasket issues. Never mind the oil leaks!

If it weren't for all the crap I would have had to go through with my 62, it too would be sporting a Chevy motor. If for nothing else than reliability! Damn FE motors!

I am glad there is now just a corporate engine so this crap won't mean anything going forward.
..... nick you ever saw a 400 69/70 gto loose in a street fight from a 454 chevelle!!! i dont thingk so the pontiac intermidiat engine produced big block performance in a nearly small block weight pacage!!! try to stear and brake a 454 chevelle around the corner and your in a world that heurts . till resendly the bbc ruled the strip but the streets still belong to us lololololol

[Roger Poirier]

My thoughts,

To me its not that you can't switch engines, its why would you if you have a Pontiac car. I'm referring to Pontiac muscle cars before corporate engines were put in all GM cars. Guys, you must admit very few Pontiac owners change engine companys.

Pontiac engines have a lot of torque. For the street they are a lot of fun, period. Do you need anything more? These pro-touring cars except for a few who have modified them to the extreme, use them for street driving only. Someone please take a poll. My guess is 95% are street driven and only 5% have ever made it to a road track. I don't care if you call it soul, character, whatever, its a feeling most Pontiac owners have.

I enjoy seeing updated high tech GM corporate engines in Chevy muscle cars. Its a Chevyyyyyyyyyy. Pontiac muscle cars were always looking from the outside in. Back in the day, we didn't have access to aftermarket parts like a Chevy. You learned to work with what you had.

Now, I do understand there is an exception to the rule and I respect that. No problem, if that what works for you.

R.P.

P.S. Roadrage David - who woke you up? LOL

[JoshStratton]

I am changing engines because for several reasons. I have no loyalties to Pontiac, or any other car company for that matter. I just like cars and will put in whatever suites my particular need. I like the Chevys because there are lots of parts readily available, they look better and even though my particular engine had ~105K miles and had recently been rebuilt by the previous owner, I really have no idea how many miles are on the internals. Instead of spending 1000s to fix up a relic, I would rather put that into something shiney and new. Sure it was a numbers matching car of which only 2500 were built and probably only 1500 or so still exist, but I really dont care.

Sure you can present the arguement about the 'value lost', but if i dont plan on selling it anytime soon, dont care at all about Pontiac history and realize this is a customized build that will only have the resemblence of a 79 TA by the shape of the car, then what does it matter?

Maybe I am just the exception to the rule. I would LOVE to see how this post has been translated over to some of the Pontiac boards . . . LOL

[6'9"Witha69]

I think it has more to do with attitude than anything. Having Poncho buddies and seeing the way FoMoCo guys talk like their stuff doesn't stink and nothing could EVER be wrong with their brand.

And the statement that it costs the same to build a Poncho vs. SBC is similar, in what world?? Have you even looked in a Summit or Jegs catalog recently. When you see ads for parts "starting at $_____", that is usually the SBC price, everything goes up from there. Hell the selection is even greater for an engine series which can share parts between all displacement blocks in a family. That fact in particular is exactly why SBC and BBC engines are less expensive to build. There are 2 platforms. Small and Big. Chevys don't have FEs, Ms, Windsors, Clevelands, etc. The KISS (keep it simple stuipid) method has really worked and since you don't need 5 different toolings to make a head or cam offering to the marketplace the cost of production decreases and expands the possibility for R&D in that area. Since the price is right and more people use the SBC now, the demand is higher so there is more R&D in that area. As technology increases the efficiency of these motors increases greater than that of other makes (even within the GM family) and you can see where I am going from here.

And yes, I have seen many a poncho fall to a chevy!

[BonzoHansen]

If I want to put a honda motor in my 69 COPO camaro backed by a ferrari 6 speed and use a duely rear axle I'm sure going to do what ever the hell I want with it.I want to see that! :)

[USAZR1]

..... nick you ever saw a 400 69/70 gto loose in a street fight from a 454 chevelle!!! i dont thingk so the pontiac intermidiat engine produced big block performance in a nearly small block weight pacage!!! try to stear and brake a 454 chevelle around the corner and your in a world that heurts . till resendly the bbc ruled the strip but the streets still belong to us lololololol

Please put the crack pipe down,David. :lmao:

[Mean 69]

Why not go with the new hemi, right? Well, there is no tuning software yet (i.e. can't do a turbo) and the aftermarket isn't as great...

Oh yes there is, Ralphy. At least very, very soon. We are doing a customer Mopar B-body car for an upcoming event(s) from one of the biggies, well, we're doing the rear suspension anyway. It'll be a new HEMI, with more goodies to come soon thereafter (supercharger option, etc). Our development car will have a 440 (well, a 500" version of it), but it won't be the current purple paint scheme (sorry Matt, can't look at it with seriousness, ain't gonna happen), and I am looking forward to it more than anything else we have goin' down. Think the Pontiac folks are sensitive, try explaining to a Mopar guys that you are going to put a 9" Ford rear, and C5 brakes on the car?! Gulp!

M

[Mean 69]

Please put the crack pipe down,David.

Actually, Clint, it's more like "please PASS the crack pipe!" Quick!
M

[Mean 69]

Additionally, since I've generally preferred engines somewhat more oversquare than even a stock bore:stroke 350 for a number of reasons, the current trend to build stroker engines out of just about everything for a bit more displacement is a wee bit out of step with the what I want in my powerplants. So they don't completely 'work' for me either.

I would in concept have to agree with you Norm, mostly on the premise that a big stroke engine allegedly makes "too" much downstairs power and looses steam on top, but you know, I think that might be an old wives tale if not taken to the extremes. I'd love to have a huge bore, short-ish stroke rat (aluminum of course) in my car that can spin to the stars, but the cost of valvetrain, as well as maintenance cost (springs, etc) will make you scratch your head when you want to enjoy the car on a budget. I think this is especially true when looking at "typical" big block motors of today. Let's face it, they are heavy, won't rev crazy high to begin with and don't need to, so the trick becomes putting the (huge) torque down, one way or the other.

Like everything, you'll get more opinions on this one than you can deal with.
M

[Northern Goat]

I think it has more to do with attitude than anything. Having Poncho buddies and seeing the way FoMoCo guys talk like their stuff doesn't stink and nothing could EVER be wrong with their brand.

And the statement that it costs the same to build a Poncho vs. SBC is similar, in what world?? Have you even looked in a Summit or Jegs catalog recently. When you see ads for parts "starting at $_____", that is usually the SBC price, everything goes up from there. Hell the selection is even greater for an engine series which can share parts between all displacement blocks in a family. That fact in particular is exactly why SBC and BBC engines are less expensive to build. There are 2 platforms. Small and Big. Chevys don't have FEs, Ms, Windsors, Clevelands, etc. The KISS (keep it simple stuipid) method has really worked and since you don't need 5 different toolings to make a head or cam offering to the marketplace the cost of production decreases and expands the possibility for R&D in that area. Since the price is right and more people use the SBC now, the demand is higher so there is more R&D in that area. As technology increases the efficiency of these motors increases greater than that of other makes (even within the GM family) and you can see where I am going from here.

And yes, I have seen many a poncho fall to a chevy!
I'm the first to admit in modified form Ponchos have a difficult time keeping up to Chevy, for the simple reason that there is so much more available to the Bow Tie group, and that's life I can deal with it.
I originally asked the question because I am new to this site but was surprised at how many people change powertrains. I see where you guys are coming from and I don't look down on anyone for their preference. After all it is the craftsmanship that drew me to PT and I appreciate the effort that goes into these rides. So I can appreciate the technology and parts availability arguement.
As for your cost arguement, anyone who is into this lifestyle and factors cost into the equation is out to lunch IMO. We all know this hobby sucks up a lot of cash.The arguement that cost helps dictate engine choice doesn't hold water. If you aren't willing to spend it, put it into an IRA and watch it grow.

And just for the record most Pontiac parts are interchangeable.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Oh yes there is, Ralphy. At least very, very soon. We are doing a customer Mopar B-body car for an upcoming event(s) from one of the biggies, well, we're doing the rear suspension anyway. It'll be a new HEMI, with more goodies to come soon thereafter (supercharger option, etc). Our development car will have a 440 (well, a 500" version of it), but it won't be the current purple paint scheme (sorry Matt, can't look at it with seriousness, ain't gonna happen), and I am looking forward to it more than anything else we have goin' down. Think the Pontiac folks are sensitive, try explaining to a Mopar guys that you are going to put a 9" Ford rear, and C5 brakes on the car?! Gulp!

M


This is good news. Mopars need more aftermarket support, especially from companies like LD. My post came off in the wrong tongue; I'd love to see more mopars being built, it's just their biggest obstacle to date has been the lack of a solid aftermarket. 9" Ford Rear and C5 brakes, huh? That should ruffle a few feathers, but hey--it's all in the name of hot rodding :).

[Roadrage David]

My thoughts,

To me its not that you can't switch engines, its why would you if you have a Pontiac car. I'm referring to Pontiac muscle cars before corporate engines were put in all GM cars. Guys, you must admit very few Pontiac owners change engine companys.

Pontiac engines have a lot of torque. For the street they are a lot of fun, period. Do you need anything more? These pro-touring cars except for a few who have modified them to the extreme, use them for street driving only. Someone please take a poll. My guess is 95% are street driven and only 5% have ever made it to a road track. I don't care if you call it soul, character, whatever, its a feeling most Pontiac owners have.

I enjoy seeing updated high tech GM corporate engines in Chevy muscle cars. Its a Chevyyyyyyyyyy. Pontiac muscle cars were always looking from the outside in. Back in the day, we didn't have access to aftermarket parts like a Chevy. You learned to work with what you had.

Now, I do understand there is an exception to the rule and I respect that. No problem, if that what works for you.

R.P.

P.S. Roadrage David - who woke you up? LOL
.....Roger .....i woke up seeing and reading the bs lololol . most chevy people ore people who have a pontiac but have chevy buddys, have no clue whats availeble fore the traditional injun v8 , ore are aware of the afthermarket blocks that are availeble including aluminium ones . if we talk about efisensy again. pontiac didnt need a small ore a big block it was and still is ONE SIZE FITS ALL how about that to keep it real!!! and simple ... whether its a 326 / 350/389 /400 /421 /428 /455 all are the same size block and many interchangeble parts . its a known fact that the big block chevy till resendly was the best engine disign for the big cubest and big hp . its a known fact that the injun v8 disign whas the best street engine due to its awesome torque and weight advantige over the bbc today its becoming a fact that the INDIAN ADVENTURE II blocks iron ore aluminium and the kaufman MR1 blocks with the varius aluminium heads availeble includint the tiger heads , wil give the bbc a spanking and a serius runn for its money . one aczample is that mr kaase tryd the poncho mill this year in the engine master chalenge . his engine was hurt afther 250 runs , but produced the higest hp/torque ratings!!!!! . thing is without dis respect . every swinging d,,k in the field drives a chevy . where is your will to be diferend!!!!! ..... as for the fella saying to lay douwn the crack pipe i did that manny years ago , i woke up why dont you!!!!

[Damn True]

.....Roger .....i woke up seeing and reading the bs lololol . most chevy people ore people who have a pontiac but have chevy buddys, have no clue whats availeble fore the traditional injun v8 , ore are aware of the afthermarket blocks that are availeble including aluminium ones . if we talk about efisensy again. pontiac didnt need a small ore a big block it was and still is ONE SIZE FITS ALL how about that to keep it real!!! and simple ... whether its a 326 / 350/389 /400 /421 /428 /455 all are the same size block and many interchangeble parts . its a known fact that the big block chevy till resendly was the best engine disign for the big cubest and big hp . its a known fact that the injun v8 disign whas the best street engine due to its awesome torque and weight advantige over the bbc today its becoming a fact that the INDIAN ADVENTURE II blocks iron ore aluminium and the kaufman MR1 blocks with the varius aluminium heads availeble includint the tiger heads , wil give the bbc a spanking and a serius runn for its money (http://0-29.com/?go=money) . one aczample is that mr kaase tryd the poncho mill this year in the engine master chalenge . his engine was hurt afther 250 runs , but produced the higest hp/torque ratings!!!!! . thing is without dis respect . every swinging d,,k in the field drives a chevy . where is your will to be diferend!!!!! ..... as for the fella saying to lay douwn the crack pipe i did that manny years ago , i woke up why dont you!!!!


Woah!

[MrQuick]

yeah well my big block will kick your big blocks ass! LOL

[Roadrage David]

hhhhaaahahaha ok mister quick

[andrewb70]

.....Roger .....i woke up seeing and reading the bs lololol . most chevy people ore people who have a pontiac but have chevy buddys, have no clue whats availeble fore the traditional injun v8 , ore are aware of the afthermarket blocks that are availeble including aluminium ones . if we talk about efisensy again. pontiac didnt need a small ore a big block it was and still is ONE SIZE FITS ALL how about that to keep it real!!! and simple ... whether its a 326 / 350/389 /400 /421 /428 /455 all are the same size block and many interchangeble parts . its a known fact that the big block chevy till resendly was the best engine disign for the big cubest and big hp . its a known fact that the injun v8 disign whas the best street engine due to its awesome torque and weight advantige over the bbc today its becoming a fact that the INDIAN ADVENTURE II blocks iron ore aluminium and the kaufman MR1 blocks with the varius aluminium heads availeble includint the tiger heads , wil give the bbc a spanking and a serius runn for its money . one aczample is that mr kaase tryd the poncho mill this year in the engine master chalenge . his engine was hurt afther 250 runs , but produced the higest hp/torque ratings!!!!! . thing is without dis respect . every swinging d,,k in the field drives a chevy . where is your will to be diferend!!!!! ..... as for the fella saying to lay douwn the crack pipe i did that manny years ago , i woke up why dont you!!!!


Spell check is your friend. Use it often.

Andrew

[Norm Peterson]

Even Word's spell- and grammar-checker isn't bright enough to help fix everything (I tried it), though "English as a Second Language" is probably as much the cause here as anything.

Roadrage David - what I'm now getting out of this thread is that you have even stronger marque loyalty than Northern Goat, perhaps to the point of excess. While there's nothing automatically wrong with privately holding such a position, could you dial it back a bit in public? This is a forum dedicated to the discussion of a wide variety of performance modifications, not one for inter-marque bickering. If there are Pontiac-based aftermarket pieces that really are better than their Chevy counterparts, it's the detailed hard data that will matter, not the nontechnical opinion.

Understand that there's more to a PT engine than output. With the hope that I'm correctly remembering this, destroked Pontiac engines did appear in the early under 5 liter Trans-Am series, but were also associated with more oiling system issues under track conditions than either the SBC or SBF engines. Not that that is a problem that can't be solved, but if the blocks didn't change much (as all of that interchangeability which I do understand to be true suggests), it's still something that needs to be addressed in a PT/G-machine/street fighter. Losing a $xxxx engine over the accumulated damage sustained by repeated extreme cornering or from just one complete starvation would kind of suck. What about other considerations related to durability, such as the head bolting arrangement? Etc.

As much as I enjoy building up an engine, I really don't want to keep re-doing the same one just to keep it running. Once it's built and installed in the car, I'm supposed to be able to get in, turn the key, and drive off every single time with at least the same level of confidence that it will stay together as if it had come from the factory built to precisely the same specs.

FWIW from the guy who is not at all afraid of "polluting" one make of car with parts from a different make, the first suspension mod that I did to the '79 Malibu was hard front sta-bar endlink bushings - which at that particular point in time were only available across the Pontiac dealer's parts counter. Just so you don't get the idea that I'm anti-Poncho or something.

Norm

[andrewb70]

...... though "English as a Second Language" is probably as much the cause here as anything.

Norm

Well don't I feel like a big pile of doo doo right about now.

Andrew

[Norm Peterson]

No need to, Andrew.

When something is buried toward the end of a difficult-to-read piece of writing, it's easily overlooked. Full disclosure: I've recently spent some time scoring standardized 10th grade writing samples, so I've had a bit of professional practice at having to read compositions carefully.

Norm

[Roadrage David]

Spell check is your friend. Use it often.

Andrew
..... if i use spell chek my pc starts acting up prety bad .im dyslectic as wel . i always ore at least 9 out of 10 times apologize for my bad spelling at the bottom of my posts . just in case guys like you start reminding me i cant wright / spell . so your coment is out of order ! . and iventho its badly written im very confedend you know aczackly what i wrote .......... last but not least iventho im handicapt with the dislectia , i speak ore wright a lot beter in your natife speatch then you do in mine ..

[Roger Poirier]

I'm the first to admit in modified form Ponchos have a difficult time keeping up to Chevy, for the simple reason that there is so much more available to the Bow Tie group, and that's life I can deal with it.
I originally asked the question because I am new to this site but was surprised at how many people change powertrains. I see where you guys are coming from and I don't look down on anyone for their preference. After all it is the craftsmanship that drew me to PT and I appreciate the effort that goes into these rides. So I can appreciate the technology and parts availability arguement.

As for your cost arguement, anyone who is into this lifestyle and factors cost into the equation is out to lunch IMO. We all know this hobby sucks up a lot of cash.The arguement that cost helps dictate engine choice doesn't hold water. If you aren't willing to spend it, put it into an IRA and watch it grow.


I will agree with that statement.

R.P.

[Norm Peterson]

..... if i use spell chek . . .
. . .
i speak ore wright a lot beter in your natife speatch then you do in mine ..I understood Andrew's later post to be an apology. Please read it for yourself and see if you get the same impression. Then can we drop this off-topic tangent and get back to things automotive?

What you say about second languages is probably true. But let's not go there, m'kay?

Edited to revise some wording that might not translate too well.

Norm

[parsonsj]

RR David,

Can you take a moment and fill out your location in your profile? That's a good way to help us remember you are not a native-English writer.

jp

[6'9"Witha69]

As for your cost arguement, anyone who is into this lifestyle and factors cost into the equation is out to lunch IMO. We all know this hobby sucks up a lot of cash.The arguement that cost helps dictate engine choice doesn't hold water. If you aren't willing to spend it, put it into an IRA and watch it grow.
Maybe you don't read the posts around here too much. MANY of the people on this board, myself included, are on a budget. This influences MANY aspects of which parts we choose or don't choose. A simple reference to opportunity cost should suffice here. We do not all have Bill Gates' budget. If we did, the tech for brake swaps, spindle swaps, rear end swaps, etc would not exist since we would all be able to afford GW/DSE, ATS, Wilwood/Baer, Wayne Due and other parts. Since we can't, we learn haw to salvage good performance pieces from other cars for a fraction of the price.


. . . such as the head bolting arrangement?
My buddy with the T/A used to say, "see, Pontiac knows how to bolt a head on w/ 10 bolts instead of the Band-aid 17 you chevy guys have to use". Guess whose head gaskets were always blowing and mine didn't!!! Ever heard of the term "hydraulicing" a motor??

[Roadrage David]

Even Word's spell- and grammar-checker isn't bright enough to help fix everything (I tried it), though "English as a Second Language" is probably as much the cause here as anything.

Roadrage David - what I'm now getting out of this thread is that you have even stronger marque loyalty than Northern Goat, perhaps to the point of excess. While there's nothing automatically wrong with privately holding such a position, could you dial it back a bit in public? This is a forum dedicated to the discussion of a wide variety of performance modifications, not one for inter-marque bickering. If there are Pontiac-based aftermarket pieces that really are better than their Chevy counterparts, it's the detailed hard data that will matter, not the nontechnical opinion.

Understand that there's more to a PT engine than output. With the hope that I'm correctly remembering this, destroked Pontiac engines did appear in the early under 5 liter Trans-Am series, but were also associated with more oiling system issues under track conditions than either the SBC or SBF engines. Not that that is a problem that can't be solved, but if the blocks didn't change much (as all of that interchangeability which I do understand to be true suggests), it's still something that needs to be addressed in a PT/G-machine/street fighter. Losing a $xxxx engine over the accumulated damage sustained by repeated extreme cornering or from just one complete starvation would kind of suck. What about other considerations related to durability, such as the head bolting arrangement? Etc.

As much as I enjoy building up an engine, I really don't want to keep re-doing the same one just to keep it running. Once it's built and installed in the car, I'm supposed to be able to get in, turn the key, and drive off every single time with at least the same level of confidence that it will stay together as if it had come from the factory built to precisely the same specs.

FWIW from the guy who is not at all afraid of "polluting" one make of car with parts from a different make, the first suspension mod that I did to the '79 Malibu was hard front sta-bar endlink bushings - which at that particular point in time were only available across the Pontiac dealer's parts counter. Just so you don't get the idea that I'm anti-Poncho or something.

Norm
.... Norm im not sure what you mean by dialing it back for the public! . if its about the every swingning d..k in the field thing, i must say that i was under the impression that there where no saints on this forum......... as for brand loyalty yes im a diehard injun fan ........ what tips me over is that over and over and over again , you hear chevy people say pontiac is to ecspensife to build and ore stick a chevy in there . while they are totaly ignorend and unaware that injun engines are every bit as good if not beter in the power range ore in durabilety then the best chevys out there ......... . the small but still ignorend comends made that i see time and time over again are like little drips of water that fall in a water bucket. its disrespectfull and sometimes this bucket runs over , then when something like this post comes along . il spill some of my own lololol .......... ok as for the transam 5 liter destroked injun mills and there oil problems . what i know about pontiac raceing division is that afther de big sucses and walk overs by pmd in the early 60,s pontiac was put on a lease by GM . chevy always got the free hand in that part . as soon as pontiac came up with something sucsesfull the plugs where puled time over again .................. in the transam raceing series pontiac HAD to race with a chevy mill . by the time pontiac came with the ecsperimental ram air v engines it was almost over . this 303 engine indeed had a oil problem due to the high reving , however these engines where not the ordenery run of the mill injun engines ................ no oil problem in the traditional injun v8!!!!! on ore of the track . it is as reliable as any good v8 out there . as long as there is no chevy aprotch building it . ........................... about prices jus imported a custom build 500 hp 383 stroker 73 4 bold chevy dart race pro 1 heads air gap intake eagle stroker kit srp pistons milowdon oil pan xe 274 comp cam 6700 rpm bdm full roller rockers holy ho aed 750 msd ignition the whole 9 yards . costs 8000 usd and some change ........ stunning engine ...... BUT for the same price i have a injun 400 tot 461 stroker eagle kit srp pistons edelb alu ram air iv heads with 2.19 / 177 vl torker II manifold comp cam xe284 6200 rpm all day milowdon oil pan msd ignition holly 850 ho aed ecetera again the whole 9 yards same stuf , but 575 hp /577 lbs feet of torque . now the small block chevy thusend make this torque and unlike the big block chevy the injun has no valve train isiuews ... now dont get me wrong i love all american v8,s im biast to the pontiac brand . but today there is absolut no rezen to stick a chevy engine in a pontiac car becuase of a obsolete myth about the injun engine beeing to ecspensif of not reliable nothing could be feurther from the truth ....

[Roadrage David]

My buddy with the T/A used to say, "see, Pontiac knows how to bolt a head on w/ 10 bolts instead of the Band-aid 17 you chevy guys have to use". Guess whose head gaskets were always blowing and mine didn't!!! Ever heard of the term "hydraulicing" a motor??............. ofcours there is a flip side to that coin ... personaly i know lots of people with mild to wild engines . very sporatic i hear a gasget problem, but no more then any other brand . it thepends who is fooling around with it..........

[Roger Poirier]

Roadrage David - what I'm now getting out of this thread is that you have even stronger marque loyalty than Northern Goat, perhaps to the point of excess. While there's nothing automatically wrong with privately holding such a position, could you dial it back a bit in public? This is a forum dedicated to the discussion of a wide variety of performance modifications, not one for inter-marque bickering.

Norm

I'm a pretty easy going guy. However, that statement "dail it back a bit in public" is a double standard. This board is alive and well with Chevy owners blowing their horn each and every day! Let R.D. have a little fun.

Thanks,

R.P.

[Damn True]

No need to call people ignorant based on a difference of opinion.

[USAZR1]

Actually, Clint, it's more like "please PASS the crack pipe!" Quick!
M

Yep, Pass the KoolAid while you're at it.
Just kidding,guys. Having a little fun,is all.

[Damn True]

Mmmmm, Kool-Aid!
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial4/jonestown/
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Roadrage David]

No need to call people ignorant based on a difference of opinion.
......a diferens in opinion must be based on facts and personal ecspearions, not on hearsay ........... like i said today there is absolutly no rezen nor ecscuse to stick a chevy mill in a pontiac ............ people who still do it i call ignorend yes ..... because whats the rezen for doing it ?? . prices today are the same . horse power levels are the same . durabilety is the same ........ aczample in 2 years time whe got 4 new heads . 3 of those are diferend types of aluminum heads one of those flow 400 cfm out of the box . 2 new alu manifolds 3 improved afthermarked blocks 1 aluminium all 3 good enoughf to withstand 3 to 5000 hp ........ not to mention the rest of the afthermarket parts .......... now going fore a chevy mill today in a pontiac car eather meens you are a die hard chevy mill fan , but dont like the models chevy hase been put out there , so you got a better looking pontiac insted!!!!! ore your just not aware about the quality / price /range of a pontiac mill today witch i call ignorens ..

[Northern Goat]

[QUOTE=6'9"Witha69]Maybe you don't read the posts around here too much. MANY of the people on this board, myself included, are on a budget. This influences MANY aspects of which parts we choose or don't choose. A simple reference to opportunity cost should suffice here. We do not all have Bill Gates' budget. If we did, the tech for brake swaps, spindle swaps, rear end swaps, etc would not exist since we would all be able to afford GW/DSE, ATS, Wilwood/Baer, Wayne Due and other parts. Since we can't, we learn haw to salvage good performance pieces from other cars for a fraction of the price.


I can relate to your comment on cost. I am sitting here jacked on coffee b/c I got off work at 5, ate dinner in my truck on the way to the body shop and just finished putting my body back on the frame. i probably put in 40+ hours into my car every week b/c I too am on a limited budget. I have done almost every part of this nut and bolt frame off myself, paint and majority of the body excluded. I couldn't afford baer rear disks so I put together my own set using S10 parts. And like everyone else I can go on and on about costs. You should try doing this in Canada, where we have to ship in all our parts and pay double the US equivalant and have few resources b/c PT is in it's infancy here.

The point I was making is that using cost as an arguement for anything in this hobby is weak.

[Roadrage David]

i second that as i have to pay airfreight shipping to the Netherlands in europe and pay 25% taxes on top of the parts cost including the shipping!!!! . not to mention i HAVE to have my car build for me due to hernia and diabeties . pro touring low budget ore not is a very ecspensif hobby

[trapin]

Steve....GM "Powertrain" engines.

I'll have to admit....I like when a Chevy has a Chevy and an Olds has an Olds and a Pontiac has a Pontiac, ect..ect. There's just something so damn cool about that. But I have no problem with the LSX engines. As Steve said....they're basically universal engines now so they could go in just about any GM car you'd want.

When people put Chevy engines into Fords or Ford engines into Chevys...it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. BUT I DIGRESS. TO EACH HIS OWN.

[Roadrage David]

Steve....GM "Powertrain" engines.

I'll have to admit....I like when a Chevy has a Chevy and an Olds has an Olds and a Pontiac has a Pontiac, ect..ect. There's just something so damn cool about that. But I have no problem with the LSX engines. As Steve said....they're basically universal engines now so they could go in just about any GM car you'd want.

When people put Chevy engines into Fords or Ford engines into Chevys...it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. BUT I DIGRESS. TO EACH HIS OWN.
......... Tony wat can i say . your,n oak . lolololol. i tottaly agree with that.......

[Norm Peterson]

. . . This board is alive and well with Chevy owners blowing their horn each and every day!
Thanks,

R.P.Maybe so, but when the text within the post gets as close to flame bait as the following excerpts, it's gone too far IMNSHO. Unwillingness by one participant to bend even a tiny bit on any detail suggests that it isn't a discussion any more; rather it's become an argument that will have no real closure or conclusion.


there is absolutly no rezen nor ecscuse to stick a chevy mill in a pontiac ............ people who still do it i call ignorend yes and


ore your just not aware about the quality / price /range of a pontiac mill today witch i call ignorens ..
FWIW, and with reference to the apparent English as Second Language issue, there is a huge difference in meaning between "ignorance" and "uninformed". Uninformed simply means that the reader hasn't been exposed to certain information. Ignorance implies that he would not be able to understand it even if it were handed to him on a platter; the word is a polite synonym for 'stupidity'. I think most here will freely admit to being uninformed about any number of things, but certainly not to being generally stupid.

Norm

[Northern Goat]

I think you guys may have converted me and influeneced my way of thinking about this engine swapping thing. I may pics up a Yenko and put a 326 Pontiac in her.

Just lightening up this thread. LOL.

[andrewb70]

I think you guys may have converted me and influeneced my way of thinking about this engine swapping thing. I may pics up a Yenko and put a 326 Pontiac in her.

Just lightening up this thread. LOL.

Now your getting the idea!

Andrew

[Roger Poirier]

I think you guys may have converted me and influeneced my way of thinking about this engine swapping thing. I may pics up a Yenko and put a 326 Pontiac in her.

Just lightening up this thread. LOL.


I love it! :lol:

R.P.

[Roadrage David]

Maybe so, but when the text within the post gets as close to flame bait as the following excerpts, it's gone too far IMNSHO. Unwillingness by one participant to bend even a tiny bit on any detail suggests that it isn't a discussion any more; rather it's become an argument that will have no real closure or conclusion.

and


FWIW, and with reference to the apparent English as Second Language issue, there is a huge difference in meaning between "ignorance" and "uninformed". Uninformed simply means that the reader hasn't been exposed to certain information. Ignorance implies that he would not be able to understand it even if it were handed to him on a platter; the word is a polite synonym for 'stupidity'. I think most here will freely admit to being uninformed about any number of things, but certainly not to being generally stupid.

Norm
...... Norm for the sake of argument . in the first part that you used out of my wrigting . it sais people who STILL use a chevy mill in a pontiac is ment for the presend day!!!!! . same gose fore the second fraze.. .. when i bought my 68 firebird, the first thing people said to me stick a chevy in there!! . and to tell jou the truth i nearly did . they ofered me a 454 ls6 engine . 9 out of 10 people told the same thing .. then i whent on the internet and DID MY HOMEWORK i found out that there was no need of sticking watever v8 in there but a pontiac mill . i was "ignorend" enoughf at first to belive these people , only when i digt in deeper in the matter stuff i needed to read and see came out the pc very fast!!! . call it what you whant i never said stupit nore intend to . stupit is stupit ignorend is ignorend..........

[6'9"Witha69]

stupit is stupit ignorend is ignorend..........
Despite our difference of opinion, you are correct here.
Definition of ignorant: ig·no·rant

Lacking education or knowledge.
Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.
Unaware or uninformed.
No reference to stupid or lack of capacity for understanding here. Some colloquial speech uses it that way, but text book definition does not inmply lack of intelligent thought.

[Damn True]

......a diferens in opinion must be based on facts and personal ecspearions, not on hearsay ........... like i said today there is absolutly no rezen nor ecscuse to stick a chevy mill in a pontiac ............ people who still do it i call ignorend yes ..... because whats the rezen for doing it ?? . prices today are the same . horse power levels are the same . durabilety is the same ........ aczample in 2 years time whe got 4 new heads . 3 of those are diferend types of aluminum heads one of those flow 400 cfm out of the box . 2 new alu manifolds 3 improved afthermarked blocks 1 aluminium all 3 good enoughf to withstand 3 to 5000 hp ........ not to mention the rest of the afthermarket parts .......... now going fore a chevy mill today in a pontiac car eather meens you are a die hard chevy mill fan , but dont like the models chevy hase been put out there , so you got a better looking pontiac insted!!!!! ore your just not aware about the quality / price /range of a pontiac mill today witch i call ignorens ..


Listen, it is a difference of OPINION and matter of PREFERANCE.
If you like broccoli and I don't that dosen't make me ignorant of the health benefits and flavor of broccoli. It simply means I prefer asparagus.

Lighten up dude.

[redsand]

I can get the 301 back from the farmer that put it in a tractor if you still want a pontiac!!

[6'9"Witha69]

Listen, it is a difference of OPINION.
If you like broccoli and I don't that dosen't make me ignorant of the health benefits and flavor of broccoli. It simply means I prefer asparagus.

Lighten up dude.
What about Brussel Sprouts?!:poke:

[Damn True]

What about Brussel Sprouts?!:poke:



Ya know, I like cabbage but I don't care much for Brussel Sprouts. So I guess that makes me ignorens.

[Roadrage David]

Despite our difference of opinion, you are correct here.
Definition of ignorant: ig·no·rant

Lacking education or knowledge.
Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.
Unaware or uninformed.
No reference to stupid or lack of capacity for understanding here. Some colloquial speech uses it that way, but text book definition does not inmply lack of intelligent thought.
.... Thank you 69 whita69 ..... as fore dam true i proved my point and said wat needed to be said . no need to contignue on from this point i rest my case . lolololol

[derekf]

I think we've run our course here. I'm going to go ahead and close the thread.