Anyone use Speedtechs second gen tubular control arms?

[yody]

I know how some of you feel about speedtech, but i am wondering if anyone has used the SPeedtech Tubular upper control arms. I am a little weary of using their arms. I am thinkgin of going global west but speedtechs are like $170 cheaper! I am wondering what exaclty goes into these control arms? also do the global west/speedtech tubulars make it so you don't need to put as many shims in to get the correct alignment #'s?

[68protouring454]

yody, carlc is running them on his first gen camaro and likes them from what he has told me, very strong , the only thing he mentiond was i think not enough camber(could be caster, i cannot remember), but speed tech was coming out with a diferent cross shaft to correct it, he had used them on the track i believe also, david poizzi (spelling) has a write up on them
jake

[David Pozzi]

The ST first gen arms I have are very nice. They produce somthing like 3 deg positive caster with no shims at all, shims can be added to get 5 or 6 degrees easily.

The part that might be changed or offered as an option is to make the shaft with an offset like the Moog or GW shafts so you have an extended adjustment range when using 2 deg or more neg camber with +5 deg caster. If you don't have an offset shaft, you may need longer than stock bolts to get enough room for shimms. The regular shaft is fine for normal street settings. I have about two shimms on my wife's 73 right now.

I have GW uppers on my wife's 73 Camaro, the ST were not available. The GW look good, but if you buy them, get the GW shafts too, the stock shafts are too short to work with their bushings, also their arms require the later 70's larger dia bushings. GM changed bushing sizes in the mid-70's.

David

[yody]

this is going to sound kinda like a newbie, but does that much positive caster really make that big of a difference, and how much positive camber is desinged into his arms? well know that i think about it you guys might not know those questions so i will need to contact Todd. In your opinion do you think the quality of the craftmanship/material is on par with global west, how about the bushigns? pretty much the same thing i take it?

[David Pozzi]

The current Hot Rod Magazine has a feature on how GW arms are made. They are TIG welded where the ST arms are Mig welded, the arm material is the same but I don't know the GW thickness. The TIG is a better welding proccess but the ST arms look like they are well done. Either one of these arms is stronger than stock for sure.

GW bushings have proven durability. ST bushings are similar material and design, but probably not an exact copy, they haven't been on the market long enough to see how they last but should be the same as GW.

If you have your car all together, put it on a flat floor and turn the wheel like you are making a turn, measure the camber, the tilt in or out of the front wheel. Adding more positive caster will tilt the wheel in at the top and it helps the car corner better when the tire is flatter on the ground.

The second gen spindle has something like 8 degrees built into it. If you could turn your wheels ninety degrees, it would tilt out at the top 8 degrees! (assuming zero caster). You can only turn your wheels close to half that, so you get four deg camber loss from your static camber setting straight ahead.

Five deg positive caster will cancel out the camber loss from turning the wheel, an extra deg above that, helps compensate for chassis roll or dive, so five deg positive caster is a good setting. There is also a little caster gain due to antisquat angles of the UCA but we'll ignore that for now.

[yody]

hmm, good read, i didn't know that the ST's were mig'd. So on your 73, if you had the chance again, i take it you would of bought the ST's? I think for the $170 price difference the ST's are the way to go. sounds cheesy but i do like the "blue" del a lums' opposed the the black ST's. My main concern was if ST really knew how to blueprint and build a correct arm, and if they new what kind of #'s they were supposed to shoot for, I guess they know what they are doing, or are doing a good job of copying, either way for the price it appears it coudl be worth it.

[CarlC]

An offset shaft is not necessary. The car has -1.8* camber so there is a shim stack. For 0* only a shim or two is required.

I like the ST arms, especially the lowers. The adjustable steering stop comes in handy for fitting big rims and tires.

[David Pozzi]

If the ST arms are like the First Gen arms, they should produce either the same or 1 or 2 degrees less positive caster than the GW arms, but three or more degrees than a stock arm, so they are good enough but just a little less than the GW arms.

Detroit Speed first gen arms have almost exactly the same caster as ST arms - comparing. I should qualify that the DSE arms have slots so maybe there is more adjustment left, but I'm using data posted by Chicane67.

The GW arms are pretty cheap bare, but you need their Del-A-Lum bushings, (don't even consider polly) a shaft, and balljoints. When comparing prices remember the ST arms come completely assembled with new balljoint. I lean toward the ST arms because of price, and appearance, - the SS shaft, and neat balljoint covers. The only negative is they are mig welded, but that shouldn't be a problem.

I don't have anything bad to say about the GW or DSE parts, just that they are a little more costly.

[yody]

Okay now to find out how to get them to answer their phone!!!! SO david in your opinion is there much of a positive handling difference with the tubulars over stock arms with del a lums?

[HOT OHC]

For what it's worth, I have ST's upper/lowers and QA1's on my 67' Firebird. The motor is still not in yet so I can't tell you how they handle, just they are built very well.

[David Pozzi]

hot ohc,
Nice arms, your frame needs paint though! :icon_razz

Yody,
You can order them online I think...
If you could cut off and slide your present frame mount to the rear about 3/4" and reweld, you could use your stock arms, just get delrin bushings for them and you are good to go!
David

[HOT OHC]

hot ohc,
Nice arms, your frame needs paint though! :icon_razz

Naw, I lke them ruff and ready

[jannes_z-28]

One thing I have been thining about for a while (might be a new topic).

If you have done the Guldstrand mod how does that effect the caster with upper arms like GW, Speed Tech or other makes. I mean some of them have more caster than the stock arms, right?

Jan

[yody]

well it isn't recommended to do the guldstrand on a second gen as the suspension geometry is already corrected.

[jannes_z-28]

well it isn't recommended to do the guldstrand on a second gen as the suspension geometry is already corrected.

Well, I was thinking about the first gen since they are the ones you do Guldstrand mods on, like I have on mine. See the sig.


Jan

[zbugger]

From what I've been reading, it can be used. It's more beneficial on the track though. If you only plan on street driving, with little to no track time, it may be a little too aggressive.

[David Pozzi]

If you do the Guldstrand mod alone with no added caster, the caster will "go away" when you turn the wheels, and the outboard loaded wheel will tip out on the top.
The max amount of positive caster with stock arms is somewhere around 3.5 deg + or so, use as much as you can achieve with or without the Gmod.
Guldstrand sells steel offset bushings to achieve more caster. In the 60's and 70's when these parts were invented, Camaros were racing and competing in classes that didn't allow tubular arms, so stock arms had to be left alone but special bushings could be used.

Tubular arms do enough improvement alone for most street only first gens according to Global West. If you want to autocross or do open track events, with a first gen, do the Guldstrand mod too.

Second gen Camaros have better geometry, but on second gen road racers some teams also did a Guldstrand type mod. (no I don't know how much they lowered)

The first gen with Gmod has more neg camber gain than a stock second gen, or a new vette for that matter.

[jannes_z-28]

Thanks David,

I was afraid that with tubular arms I would be getting to much caster. I have it now set to 4 degress. There is more benefits from the Guldstand mod than caster, like better roll center and geometry in general.


Jan

[CarlC]

According to GW, for street driving -1* camber and as much caster as the car will take for a 1st gen car.

However, anything more than 6* caster seems to cause some issues with handling. One car that had 9* had a shimmy during turns. With 6* it went away. 5-6* seems to work pretty well for me.

[David Pozzi]

Carl,
Was the car rear-steer?