88-98 C1500 2WD Spindle Engineering Question

[NCTroop]

I have a 1995 C1500 and I am wanting to do a pro touring build. My question, is it possible to have someone build a spindle for my truck that uses a C5/C6 hub like the 2nd gen camaro options that are out there. That spindle appears to not be that drastically different then the 88-98 spindle. I know there is probably some geometry differences. Can anyone help with this. I have called and called to every place I can think of and no one can provide any assistance. This would help with wheel options and brake options which are very limited on my truck. Any insight as to why this can't work on my truck or who could help me would be greatly appreciated.

This is one 2nd generation camaro spindle using a corvette hub and BMR steer arm.

https://www.pro-touring.com/webkit-fake-url://ba0db815-b535-4ed2-8fa5-9f1f9e7ce264/imagejpeg

[LT1C1500]

Subbed, because I want to know as well.

[vwmopar]

Someone I'm sure could fabricate one. It would be welded construction not cast or forged. To make small runs casting isn't cheap. The 4wd or prerunner truck guys build spindles all the time. Try these guys http://michiganmetalworks.com they build all kinds of one off truck stuff.

[Dr G]

Making spindles really is not that hard. As long as you're not trying to squeeze the last ounce of weight out of them. Some of the sexiest fabricated hardware I've held in my hands ever was a fabricated upright/spindle for a 90's TransAm car. That was made from sheet 4130, light as hell, heat treated after welding and then straightened. Impossible to do for the average enthusiast. But if you stick to mild steel and throw more mass at it so things do not distort when welding, and so you have a x5 or more safety margin, then probably a lot of folks could make their own spindles. Certain parts maybe you'd want to get CNC'd, like the part the stub bolts to, just to get the bolt pattern perfect. That is what I would do anyway. Then there's the part your ball joints attach to, are they press-in or bolt-on? If press-in you can get the taper machined or buy a tapered reamer and form the taper yourself. If the balljoints bolt on then it's even easier. You absolutely need a fixture to hold everything precisely during assembly, but it's not rocket science. I guess it's my opinion that folks get overly intimidated by this sort of stuff. Although obviously you do need some level of skill if you're doing to tackle it. But there are definitely more people around that could build spindles than people that do build spindles.

Heck, you could even build a spindle out of machined parts that just bolted together (no welding). There would be an upright, with holes for the stub to bolt to. Then more holes for the steering arm that would bolt on. Then holes at the top and bottom for little blocks to bolt on that would be the upper and lower ball joint attachment points. All the parts would be separately machined. You could design everything yourself and go to eMachineShop.com to have the parts made. I've been using that place for 15 years with good results for low volume machining. Then bolt it all together with ARP fasteners and voila.

[Tincup]

Something like this. It is possible to do it, but it does take time. I probibly have close to 30hrs design time, another $3-400 in material ( all 4140 ) and luckily I have a friend with a CNC, otherwise it would have been a ton to machine. All said and done, I'll bet your looking at $3000 to make a set. I made mine so I could run Dodge Ram SRT10 hubs and brakes on the front (15" rotors).

133244

133243

[CharlesW]

wouldnt it be easier to modify the control arms to accept new ball joints that mount to the C5/ C6 spindle ?

[Dr G]

Something like this. It is possible to do it, but it does take time. I probibly have close to 30hrs design time, another $3-400 in material ( all 4140 ) and luckily I have a friend with a CNC, otherwise it would have been a ton to machine. All said and done, I'll bet your looking at $3000 to make a set.


Yes, that's the ticket there tin-man. A bolt-together spindle.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2016/10/spindle-1.jpg

The 30 hours of design time should not be an issue for the average enthusiast. This is a hobby after all. Designing parts is supposed to be fun!

The cost, I'm not sure. You went with 4140, a great choice and a strong material, but expensive to machine. 15 years ago I owned a small company making brake parts for BMW M3's. I had a kit that adapted Porsche 996 monoblock calipers to M3 front ends and the adapter bracket was made from 4140. Heat treated after machining. Yet there were other companies selling similar brake kits where the adapter bracket was just made from CNC'd 6061-T6, and they suffered no ill effects that I ever heard of. So was I just being too cautious? Who knows. Neither I nor any of those any other companies did an FEA check (finite element analysis).

To wit, there are some very professional spindle kits on the market now in the Pro Touring arena where the steering arm is CNC aluminum. And even some where the whole spindle is aluminum. That would be a lot cheaper to machine. It would be more bulky though.

Not pooh-poohing your design at all, it looks great. Just trying to point out that there are times where steel is absolutely required for a part. Either because of absolute strength requirements. Or because there is not enough room for the extra space that an aluminum part would require. But I'm not sure a spindle is such a part. I think aluminum is a viable material for a spindle, and it would bring down machining costs quite a bit.

[Protour_Pinto]

Kibbetech builds a lot of prerunner trucks and fabs a lot of suspension parts for them.

Scotts Hotrods has been getting into the C10 world.

[Tincup]

Yes, that's the ticket there tin-man. A bolt-together spindle.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2016/10/spindle-1.jpg

The 30 hours of design time should not be an issue for the average enthusiast. This is a hobby after all. Designing parts is supposed to be fun!

The cost, I'm not sure. You went with 4140, a great choice and a strong material, but expensive to machine. 15 years ago I owned a small company making brake parts for BMW M3's. I had a kit that adapted Porsche 996 monoblock calipers to M3 front ends and the adapter bracket was made from 4140. Heat treated after machining. Yet there were other companies selling similar brake kits where the adapter bracket was just made from CNC'd 6061-T6, and they suffered no ill effects that I ever heard of. So was I just being too cautious? Who knows. Neither I nor any of those any other companies did an FEA check (finite element analysis).

To wit, there are some very professional spindle kits on the market now in the Pro Touring arena where the steering arm is CNC aluminum. And even some where the whole spindle is aluminum. That would be a lot cheaper to machine. It would be more bulky though.

Not pooh-poohing your design at all, it looks great. Just trying to point out that there are times where steel is absolutely required for a part. Either because of absolute strength requirements. Or because there is not enough room for the extra space that an aluminum part would require. But I'm not sure a spindle is such a part. I think aluminum is a viable material for a spindle, and it would bring down machining costs quite a bit.

You are correct Dr. G, but my decision to go with steel vs aluminum was based on a number of factors. First I did run a simplified analysis program that is built into Solidworks called Cosmos which told me the 6061 Aluminum could not handle the forces that I used. Now granted the forces I used were based on a lot of assumptions that I and my colleagues came up with, mostly because we have no way to actually measure these forces. Second, the difference in cost of materials was negligible, as well as the cost of machining ( I worked a deal with a friend of mine ).
Now, you could simply assume that if aluminum was good enough for Dodge to use on their spindles,( which I'm sure they ran FEA on ) on a truck that weighs in at close to 2000lbs more than my truck, it would be safe. But given the fact that my truck will primarily see street use in New England where the potholes have been known to swallow up small cars, I decided to go with the steel.

[rubens09]

Have you looked at little shop of horrors? They have a complete willwood brake kit for the front and rear using willwood components and accept stock spindles or dropped spindles. I have same style truck and will be doing the same build.

[Dr G]

If anyone is looking for some random "spindle/upright inspiration" here are some photos of spindles from various types of motorsport. F1, WRC, Prototypes, BTCC, Trophy Trucks etc...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2016/10/upright11-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2016/10/WRC_braking_alcon6pot_water_cooled_calip-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2016/10/Screen20Shot202016102020at2011061520AM-1.png

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2016/10/DSC00022-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2016/10/Force20India20Upright202-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2016/10/Hot20Rod20Hoonigan20article20suspension2-1.jpg

[f-body]

I see you are using an adjustable upper control arm. The stock control arm is fictional but seems to lack much adjustment. A cross shaft like the original first Gen and second Camaro's would be better.
The 1988-1995 GM trucks use two bolts and eccentric and as soon and you make an adjustment they no longer travel on a common pivot point and it actually binds the upper control arm, poly bushings make the problem worse. And to add to that GM used the same design later with adjustment on its 4x4 trucks on the lower control arms.


I will take some of those welded up spindles. Look at this welds!! I need to practice my TIG welds!!!

[DocME]

I have a 1995 C1500 and I am wanting to do a pro touring build. My question, is it possible to have someone build a spindle for my truck that uses a C5/C6 hub like the 2nd gen camaro options that are out there. That spindle appears to not be that drastically different then the 88-98 spindle. I know there is probably some geometry differences. Can anyone help with this. I have called and called to every place I can think of and no one can provide any assistance. This would help with wheel options and brake options which are very limited on my truck. Any insight as to why this can't work on my truck or who could help me would be greatly appreciated.

This is one 2nd generation camaro spindle using a corvette hub and BMR steer arm.

https://www.pro-touring.com/webkit-fake-url://ba0db815-b535-4ed2-8fa5-9f1f9e7ce264/imagejpeg

Did you ever make any headway on this? I'm interested in the same....

[Tpichevy]

Call kore3 im pretty sure they make a billet hub that fits the OBS and you can run c5/c6 brakes

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https://www.kore3.com/products.php?cat=14