Hotchkis Leafs or 4 Link

[4fbodies]

In the middle of 69 Camaro build. LS7, T56 Magnum, Speedtech A arms, QA1 coilovers, subrame bushings, Herb Adams front sway bar, Ats spindles, C6 Brakes, 12 bolt. I already have Hotchkis 1.5 drop leaf springs, but have been debating on switching to bolt in 4 link or Torque Arm setup - Would it be worth the time and trouble for the increase in performance while I have the thing in pieces. I've been gathering the parts over many years. I've finally torn the car down. Goals are increased handling with a good ride. May see occasional 1/4 mile or track day. Not willing to cut or weld on the body - rearend ok. And yes, I've done lots of searching and reading. Looking for inputs from people with experience. Thanks

[Rod]

I will jump in .....



Would it be worth the time and trouble for the increase in performance

this is what many think but not true, both setups are capable of good and bad performance, the reason many change to a link rear suspension is the adjustability....easier to change spring rates, ride heights and roll centers, a good leaf setup is just as fast as a link setup

if you have the Hotchkis performance leafs already, spend the money to finish the leaf build up, add the spherical bearings to the front of the leafs with delrin rears, and run a GREAT adjustable shock

I see a ton of leaf cars with crappy shocks and they wonder why it ride like junk, start there

Not necessary but, makes a leaf work AWESOME!!!!I also would look into a Fays2 watts link that will really make the car handle and keeps the leafs from becoming the centering device

[4fbodies]

Thanks, Rod. Familiar with the delrin's, Will look into the spherical bearings and Fays2.

[the owl]

I'll jump in from a different perspective putting performance completely away....

How low do you want the car to be? How wide of tire are you looking to run?

I did the whole leaf/coil setup and then moved to a speedtech set up because I like my car to ride low and enjoy the adjustability of coil overs. the leafs performed well but at some point it becomes a pain if you want 315's in the back, you have to move leafs, do a custom tank etc.

[killer69]

I Vote for the Torque arm!!
you have most of the other parts we make. the TA is an easy install and virtually no set up and off you go. Street ride is Excellent as well as track performance if that is required.

[4fbodies]

I plan on as wide a tire as I can with stock tubs and lips without rubbing - 275/40-18 are planned in the rear. I'm going to lower the car but not looking to put it in the weeds.

Torque Arm is under consideration.

[the owl]

I plan on as wide a tire as I can with stock tubs and lips without rubbing - 275/40-18 are planned in the rear. I'm going to lower the car but not looking to put it in the weeds.

Torque Arm is under consideration.

I have a speedtech torque arm (and chicane kit up front) with viking coilovers and could not be happier and I truly believe it's the best bang for the buck out there. I personally like it way more than my lowered leaf setup (3" lowered) but as I have said before I like my car low. However, if you don't want to go any lower than 3", have a completely custom stance, and do not plan to go wider than what fits in a stock tub there is no reason to spend more money on anything other than leafs in my opinion.

Here is a picture of my car with my speedtech setup for reference. (20" wheel w/ 315's rear and 18" wheel w/265's front with DSE mini tubs)

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[4fbodies]

Very Nice!

[F-Body International]

Have to be real with what you intend for the build. As stated, the leaf springs can handle great and shock absorbers are a huge factor. There is even option for composite leaf springs that are much lighter than steel. Hyperco and Ridetech offers this.

[F-Body International]

Noticed on this thread that no one mentioned the BMR Torque Arm. This is another route where you can add the torque arm setup to a leaf spring car. Here is a link to their 12 bolt torque arm for leaf spring setups...

http://bmrsuspension.com/?page=products&productid=233&superpro=0

[BMR Sales]

It's funny, the only time I have Sold the Torque Arm for use with Leafs, it went into a Truck

[rohrt]

I'm interested in this topic as well. Couple thoughts:

No one mentioned that leafs can S-wrap and in some cases have bad wheel hop. I have seen this mostly with stock leafs. I have never had this with my Hotchkis leafs, but then again I don't have huge tires on it either.

The other thing I was wondering with the 4 link and torq arm setup up is weight. Not necessarily a bad thing in some cases but leafs are heavy and some of those torq arm systems look just as heavy if not worse. I'm only guessing here but I would think the triangulated 4 link would give the same advantage with the least weight.

[killer69]

I have a speedtech torque arm (and chicane kit up front) with viking coilovers and could not be happier and I truly believe it's the best bang for the buck out there. I personally like it way more than my lowered leaf setup (3" lowered) but as I have said before I like my car low. However, if you don't want to go any lower than 3", have a completely custom stance, and do not plan to go wider than what fits in a stock tub there is no reason to spend more money on anything other than leafs in my opinion.

Here is a picture of my car with my speedtech setup for reference. (20" wheel w/ 315's rear and 18" wheel w/265's front with DSE mini tubs)

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121253


Car looks Awesome, thanks for the props as well, Glad your enjoying the car!! that is what it is all about

[Ben@SpeedTech]

I have a Nova set up for drag racing that I built to be a sleeper so aside from drag shocks on their stiffest setting out back there's no other rear traction devices. I use 90/10s and Moroso drag springs up front to transfer weight on launch. The car spends a lot of time wrapping up springs and dropping the body over the axle causing the slicks to rub for all of 1st gear until it settles down. It works but isn't as efficient as it could be. It would seem in our cone dodging genre results would be similar?

I've had the multi leafs out of my Nova and they're not real light either. I'm not sure how much a leaf system including shackles and all weighs, but the weight of a complete Speedtech Torque arm system including the brackets you weld to the axle is a little over 100lbs. That includes a crossmember that the panhard bar and shocks bolt too, which when installed strengthens the rear frame rails. Consider that the main weight of the torque arm system is all low in the car and a good portion of it towards the middle. Relocating the weight and strengthening the chassis can all be an advantage when slinging the car around corners.

Our center arm is engineered with the strength built inside the arm so it's compact and fairly friendly to exhaust systems. We typically do 3" tailpipes out the back on the cars we build in the shop. On my Pro Touring G body, a factory 4 link car like a Chevelle, the exhaust builder had a time of it working the 3" system through the limited space of the lowered 4 link system.

Ron Sutton told us once in a meeting with him that between leafs, a 4 link, and a Torque arm, the Torque arm will allow the most amount of suspension travel before binding up and can be considered the best system available next to a race engineered 3 link, and it doesn't have the packaging and fitment issues a 3-link incurs.

Some thoughts to consider when deciding on a rear suspension.

[badazz81z28]

Proof is on the pavement. I know 69 is different, but if you want big tires you're not going to do it without some welding and cutting.

I agree that leafs can perform wonderfully. I had no issue in the performance department with hotchkis leafs and bilstein shocks. In fact I rode in a 70 with ride tech and had no idea it was under there. Felt no better or worse than my leaf springs. To get 335s in the back of my car, it required something to move inboard. Rather than relocating springs, I just went to the quadra link. That system, ignoring other opinions on 3 links, 4 links, leafs etc...that quadra link system dominate at the autocross. People will always talk bad about other systems, but proof is on the pavement

[badazz81z28]

I'm interested in this topic as well. Couple thoughts:

No one mentioned that leafs can S-wrap and in some cases have bad wheel hop. I have seen this mostly with stock leafs. I have never had this with my Hotchkis leafs, but then again I don't have huge tires on it either.

The other thing I was wondering with the 4 link and torq arm setup up is weight. Not necessarily a bad thing in some cases but leafs are heavy and some of those torq arm systems look just as heavy if not worse. I'm only guessing here but I would think the triangulated 4 link would give the same advantage with the least weight.

I'm pretty sure the quadra link is lighter. I just shipped a set of springs at 90lbs. I would guess with the brackets and shock plates/shocks about 125lbs Total

[BMR Sales]

Leafs weigh a Lot. Just about any system you put in should come in weighing about the same or less

[bret]

In the middle of 69 Camaro build. LS7, T56 Magnum, Speedtech A arms, QA1 coilovers, subrame bushings, Herb Adams front sway bar, Ats spindles, C6 Brakes, 12 bolt. I already have Hotchkis 1.5 drop leaf springs, but have been debating on switching to bolt in 4 link or Torque Arm setup - Would it be worth the time and trouble for the increase in performance while I have the thing in pieces. I've been gathering the parts over many years. I've finally torn the car down. Goals are increased handling with a good ride. May see occasional 1/4 mile or track day. Not willing to cut or weld on the body - rearend ok. And yes, I've done lots of searching and reading. Looking for inputs from people with experience. Thanks

One possibility to consider for a hotrodder who wants a very simple installation, excellent ride quality, great handling, and a price that does not compromise the rest of the car build budget: http://www.ridetech.com/store/streetgrip

As for the discussion about the weight of a traditional leafspring...our composite leafspring package weighs under 20lbs for the pair. [and they are available separately from the entire package] Lots of good technical information in that link...be sure to read through all of it.

[bret]

I would add that the composite leafs like a bit more rebound in the rear shocks than most traditional leafs. I would suggest using our HQ Series rebound adjustable units in conjunction with the composite leafs.

[eurotoys]

I would add that the composite leafs like a bit more rebound in the rear shocks than most traditional leafs. I would suggest using our HQ Series rebound adjustable units in conjunction with the composite leafs.

Bret,

Not to hijack the thread, but I am interested in the Streetgrip for my 73 Trans Am because of the lighter weight. I plan on mostly street driving, the occasional autocross and the occasional roadcourse (including OUSCI). I know the 4-link would be better, but will the StreetGrip work? I have people suggesting the Hotchkiss set-up, but I hate the ride height and heavy springs.

Also, why doesn't Ridetech have a rear sway bar for 2nd gens? Are they not recommended?

Mike

[bret]

Bret,

Not to hijack the thread, but I am interested in the Streetgrip for my 73 Trans Am because of the lighter weight. I plan on mostly street driving, the occasional autocross and the occasional roadcourse (including OUSCI). I know the 4-link would be better, but will the StreetGrip work? I have people suggesting the Hotchkiss set-up, but I hate the ride height and heavy springs.

Also, why doesn't Ridetech have a rear sway bar for 2nd gens? Are they not recommended?

Mike

The StreetGrip system would work very nicely for your application. A coilover/tubular control arm/4 link system would have more tunability for ride height and spring rates, but many times that aspect is lost on the casual driver. Here are the items in the StreetGrip package that I think would be most valuable in a competitive driving event:

1. dual rate coilsprings - the intial spring rate during the first 1" of suspension travel is quite tame to offer a great ride quality. When you hit a large bump or corner the car hard enough to compress the spring beyond that first inch, you transition into a much former spring rate that will resist body roll...and offer better handling.
2. tall upper ball joint - GM musclecars suffer from poor front suspension geometry...the loaded tire goes into positive camber on compression [tire leans away from the turn]. By installing a taller upper ball joint we change the camber geometry so the loaded tire leans INTO to turn...greatly improving the cornering power and overall feel of the car.
3. composite leafsprings - in addition to being 60-80 lbs lighter than traditional leafs, they offer a more appropriate spring rate for better road manners and handling.
4. delrin bushings - as far as I know, we are the only people to offer a delrin bushing system for the oem control arms. Delrin allows free rotational movement of the control arms and eliminates any unpredictable movement of the control arms during cornering. We also use Delrin in the leafspring busings for the same reasons.
5. larger swaybar with Delrin bushings - many companies offer larger swaybars to control body roll, but our use of Delrin bushings eliminates the sticktion that compromises ride quality and predictable handling.
6. adjustable shocks - our HQ Series rebound adjustable shocks can be tuned to optimum ride quality AND then turned up for optimum handling.

As far as ride height, we have images and fender height dimension published here : http://www.ridetech.com/info/streetgrip-dimensions/

We don't offer a rear swaybar for the leafspring applications because we have determined that it is not needed. The car is better balanced without a rear swaybar.

[eurotoys]

Thanks Bret. I noticed that the StreetGrip front sway bar is different than the Muscle bar, is that because of the end links, or is the bar also different? Right now I am leaning towards most of the StreetGrip kit (no front bushings) and getting different spindles & front control arms.

Mike

[bret]

The StreetGrip bar is a bit softer than the Musclebar in anticipation of more street oriented tires and driving.

[yellow1098Greg]

I am also trying to make the decision between a good leaf setup like your streetgrip or the 4link. What I'm not sure of is what the adjustability of the 4link will provide for me in my mostly street driven car, with some track time at the strip and auto cross. The lower ride height is important to me but I don't need it to be crazy low either. However I do plan on having about 600-650 hp with lots of torque, and I was thinking the 4link would handle this kinda of power much better than the leaf setup. I was hoping you could educate me on that aspect and also how much of a difference in price are the 2 full kits? Thanks as always!

[Skip Fix]

I have a Nova set up for drag racing that I built to be a sleeper so aside from drag shocks on their stiffest setting out back there's no other rear traction devices. I use 90/10s and Moroso drag springs up front to transfer weight on launch. The car spends a lot of time wrapping up springs and dropping the body over the axle causing the slicks to rub for all of 1st gear until it settles down. It works but isn't as efficient as it could be. It would seem in our cone dodging genre results would be similar?

I've had the multi leafs out of my Nova and they're not real light either. I'm not sure how much a leaf system including shackles and all weighs, but the weight of a complete Speedtech Torque arm system including the brackets you weld to the axle is a little over 100lbs. That includes a crossmember that the panhard bar and shocks bolt too, which when installed strengthens the rear frame rails. Consider that the main weight of the torque arm system is all low in the car and a good portion of it towards the middle. Relocating the weight and strengthening the chassis can all be an advantage when slinging the car around corners.

Our center arm is engineered with the strength built inside the arm so it's compact and fairly friendly to exhaust systems. We typically do 3" tailpipes out the back on the cars we build in the shop. On my Pro Touring G body, a factory 4 link car like a Chevelle, the exhaust builder had a time of it working the 3" system through the limited space of the lowered 4 link system.

Ron Sutton told us once in a meeting with him that between leafs, a 4 link, and a Torque arm, the Torque arm will allow the most amount of suspension travel before binding up and can be considered the best system available next to a race engineered 3 link, and it doesn't have the packaging and fitment issues a 3-link incurs.

Some thoughts to consider when deciding on a rear suspension.

Saw this thread and thought a few comments -Ben not sure the HP or 60 fts your drag Nova is putting out but you can get a leaf spring not to wrap up. Of course old school slapper bars,Cal tracs are the hot setup now or Mopar Super Stock style springs with the second leaf all the way to the spring eye and clamps on the front half. Some aftermarket springs come with the second leaf like that I think Global West's are more biased. For a drag car before CalTracs the Tri-City "Launcher" springs were the hot ticket for Ford and GMs that copied the Mopar engineering for them on the front pack bias. They helped me 60 ft 1.5s on just a 9" slick in my TA.