Custom AMC front A arms

[Nothingface5384]

Im looking to get custom tubular control arms for my Hornet
Since its a strut rod design im thinking the better route would be a 1 piece lower like how Ridetech did the mustang arms vs separate strut rod and lower
Now my question is whats better for the lowers bushing type
UMI Rotojoint
Or
QaI Endura XM chromoly heim joints/rods ends

They both have the similar material race to help isolate wear and vibration
Delrin vs teflon/nylon

[amx2334]

Do you plan on making them yourself ?
I corresponded with Ridetech about 8yrs. ago regarding arms for AMC's but I think they were too busy and the AMC market is too small. Maybe now they will?
I stuck with the stock lower and used a modified johnny joint for the arm and a ball joint for the strut rod. I have seen quite a few rod ends used. I also built a custom upper using delrin bushings. This was all 7-8 yrs. ago before freakride.

Honestly if I had to do it again I would just call Freakride and be done with it. They get rid of the strut rod. If you stick with the strut rod and use a bushing on the lower arm and try to crank up the caster it will just tear up the bushing (delrin or urethane). Total Control lower mustang arms fix this issue. I duplicated what they did. I think Ridetech mustang arms relocate the ball joints to increase caster. I also did this with the upper arm on my design.
Long story short, unless you are willing to re-engineer both arms you won't be able to dial in much caster. At this point Freakeride starts looking pretty good. Better spindle w/ more brake options etc. I'm not sold on the r&p they use but maybe you can still use the saginaw box.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/09/12710009-1.jpg (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/amx2334/media/68%20AMX/12-7-10009.jpg.html)

[Nothingface5384]

Freakride is overpriced for what their m2 kit is..
For same price id rather get a full weld in front clip from AME
And for their modified stock, they dont seem to lffer an el carte

Theirs a guy in theamcforum who made a custom upper but he didnt bother tontake advantage of using say a howl tall ball joint or Chrysler screw in nor built in negative camber
But he did make it adjustable via threaded hiem joints.

[Nothingface5384]

Yeah trying to source out the work
Id rather stick with the GM box and get rebuilt by lee or ats

Btw
Sweet arms
So you used a Johnny joint
Just on lower arms?
Both pivot points? Or just the strut rod side?

[amx2334]

I just wandered over to freakride and yes it is kinda spendy. I thought it was less but that was years ago last time I looked. AME front clip puts you into the "cant bring it back" category. Not that AMX's are appreciating much but this one was just too solid to cut.

The lower bushing is a jj ball and urethane bushing cut to fit a custom outer shell welded in the arm. The jj application is the jeep track bar. The camber adjuster bolt is 9/16.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/68033-1.jpg (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/amx2334/media/68%20AMX/68033.jpg.html)

The strut rod is a chrysler small ball joint in place of the bushing. I machined an adjuster and threaded the old strut rod.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/09/68084-1.jpg (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/amx2334/media/68%20AMX/68084.jpg.html)

Its all here http://s248.photobucket.com/user/amx2334/library/68%20AMX?sort=6&page=1

[Nothingface5384]

Bump

[CTX-SLPR]

I just wandered over to freakride and yes it is kinda spendy. I thought it was less but that was years ago last time I looked. AME front clip puts you into the "cant bring it back" category. Not that AMX's are appreciating much but this one was just too solid to cut.

The lower bushing is a jj ball and urethane bushing cut to fit a custom outer shell welded in the arm. The jj application is the jeep track bar. The camber adjuster bolt is 9/16.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/68033-1.jpg (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/amx2334/media/68%20AMX/68033.jpg.html)

The strut rod is a chrysler small ball joint in place of the bushing. I machined an adjuster and threaded the old strut rod.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/09/68084-1.jpg (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/amx2334/media/68%20AMX/68084.jpg.html)

Its all here http://s248.photobucket.com/user/amx2334/library/68%20AMX?sort=6&page=1How has the ball joint held up under use? My Riviera uses the same type suspension and I'm strongly considering this or the Ridetech spherical bearing approach.

[mike343sharpstick]

I think if any AMC guy is looking to upgrade suspension, it can be done is several stages. Also depends on if you have old Trunion or newer 70 and up upper ball-joint with anti-dive geometry.

I have a 69 javelin that works amazingly with while still maintaining the trunion, but it certainly could be better. I’ve boxed the lower control arms, replaced all bushings with polly, increased spring rates, updated brakes with the aerospace kit, and upgraded the sway bar.
A user over on the AMC forum is selling these, and I’m about to order up a set. I think this is a great upgrade to any AMC with intentions of spirited driving.
http://amccars.net/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1223220958/90#90
123885

The CF stuff is great, but it is expensive! Add to that I would need new headers to clear the steering rack and a few other changes, and it’s a bit too far for what I’m willing to change at this point. If I were earlier in a build it might be different.

I love what amx2334 has fabricated; I believe that was a conversion from trunion to an upper ball joint suspension correct? I am actually currently building a jig from a trunion suspension to begin fabricating myself a new upper control arm using 70 and up suspension uprights and a longer mopar-style upper ball joint.
I have most of the parts, I just need some spare time in the Garage :P

On 1970 and up AMC suspensions, I don’t think its bad enough to need complete replacement for most hot street cars. The geometry is relatively good, but boxing in control arms, updating the bushings, and replacing the spring and shock with a coil-over would seem to be a relatively simple and worthwhile effort.
If you would ever want to go real high-end that’s another story. Then it would be great to graft in modern vette stuff, Detroit speed suspension, or update to a new Schwartz chassis.
http://www.detroitspeed.com/X-Gen-Products/032041-X-gen-535.html

[buster51]

THe biggest issue I see with the stock AMC stuff is no or little anti-dive and not enough caster adjustment. There was an article on Ronnie Kaplan's early development of the 68 Javelin for Trans Am where he actually copied the inner fender panel pickup points from a mustang and had AMC do a limited run of inner fender panels. They were actually listed in AMC race parts literature. The new panels relocated the upper arms for more caster and anti-dive.

I have tried to develop my own strut rod for more caster, but the arcs of travel are just so different.I think the factory relied on the flex in the lower control arms and rubber bushings to compensate for it. I don't know how other's make it work without breaking something. I read a great article about a magazine author's 66 Chevelle track car that began breaking the rear control arm brackets after switching to solid arms and poly bushings.

[mike343sharpstick]

To Clarify, the anti dive geometry problem is only on 69 and Older cars. It's basically 'fixed' for the 70 and later cars. The Kaplan fix was used for the '69 season basically, and moved to production for 1970.
On my '69 I'll gain caster via fabrication of the top A-Arm and I'll be able to lean the suspension upright toward the rear of the car about 4 degrees. I'll have no improvements for anti-dive however. Yeah, pushing that lower arm to far forward with added strut rod length would put too much bind in that lower attachment bushing. It would also put even more bind in the upper trunion.

One option is to use a mono-ball in the lower control arm in place of the rubber or Poly bushing.

At any rate, I have all the parts I need to begin building my front suspension jig this weekend!

[mike343sharpstick]

Well, if anyone is interested I've invested a few hundred dollars, and fair amount of time into Fabricating new A-Arms to convert my AMC trunions to upper ball joints.
Yesterday I built a jig that duplicates the front upright, trunion, and upper control arm position using the geometry currently in my '69 Javelin.
I'll use this jig to place the 1970 suspension upright, and connect the upper control arms to that. I'm building in some caster when fabricating the new A-arms as well, it's all just science experiments at this point, It's been very interesting so far.

My car has shorter springs, and is lowered about 1.5 inches. My stock upper a-arm with '69 trunion suspension are at about 2 degrees at the current ride height.
I ordered the QA1 screw in upper ball joints with the mid-length stud. A quick check with the 1970 suspension upright in place with the new upper ball joint shows me about 4 degrees with the new upper A-arm, so a bit more camber gain.

Here is something odd, my car is about an inch and a half lower than stock, so a stock pre-70 front suspension would have the opposite of camber gain for the first few degrees of front suspension travel. That can't be good?

Now that I'm this far I'm going to measure the lower suspension, this will give me the ability to throw all this info in CAD and figure out roll center and a few other things. This is fun:D
If anyone wants more detail let me know, happy to spend some time typing it in here if anyone want's to know.

Cheers
Mike

[greg9705]

Hey mike. I am very interested to see what you come up with. I have a 65 rambler american that i have been looking for ideas on what to do with those trunions, the suspension is the same as your 69. I have thought about just removing the shock tower from a 70 and up amc and welding that in and using the factory knuckle and upper arm and then put a coilover on it. There is a thread on here about the car. Thanks for you info and sharing the love of amc.

[mike343sharpstick]

Greg, I'll keep you posted then. Your idea of grafting a 70 and up shock tower is a good one, but would take some careful fabrication.
I have the Jig built that emulates my stock geometry. I've placed the 1970 upright/knuckle in the jig with the rod-ends and QA1 ball joint and screw-in collar. Now I'll need to have some DOM tubing bent to basically connect the dots.

Here is the jig with the stock suspension held at my current ride height and geometry.

[mike343sharpstick]

Here is the 1970 upright with the new parts showing the basic configuration of the new parts.
A couple things to note, I will not be welding the A-Arms, I'll have a qualified expert doing that.
I'll be testing these for several months before any consideration of making something for anyone else. Even then, I have concerns on safety and liability issues should something go wrong.

I've been wondering how the small custom fabrication shops deal with potential liability of custom suspension?
Maybe I could just loan out the jig and supply a parts list?

At any rate, I did some basic measurements and it looks like this will work out. With the stock configuration the upper A-Arm was at about 2 degrees, with the upper ball joint I've chosen the new upper A-Arm will be at about 4 degrees given current ride height. I can get a longer stud for the QA1 ball joint and increase that even more should I choose to do so.
I'm also building the upper control arm with 5 degrees of caster. On the old trunions the more caster you dial in the more binding you get, so as my car sits now, there isn't much caster at all.

[mike343sharpstick]

Finally had some time to work on this, first one fabricated, and tacked together.
129399

[68Formula]

Finally had some time to work on this, first one fabricated, and tacked together.
129399

Seriously? You're just going to tease us with a section of the SST in the background?:yum:

[mike343sharpstick]

It's just an old Rambler.
129406

[mike343sharpstick]

Upper Arms Done, Now to focus on how to mount the coil-over.
130215

[Smiley]

Hello, just joined for this topic. Cool to see. Had a couple of questions for mike343sharpstick. First, where did touch get that hood scoop? Can you get me One? And next, you mentioned the angle ufo your upper a-arms going from 4 degrees,to 2. So, are the arms still lower at the ball joint side, than at the car Side? If so, have you checked out your clearances for lowering,at car side? Thanks.......mike

[mike343sharpstick]

Hey all, just following up here. I have the completed front suspension on my car and it's even better than expected.
I've been working on this on-and-off for a long time, but I didn't want to say anything until I had something interesting to report.
I've had the car on the road for a few weeks now, and it's so much fun to drive. Interesting the ride quality is better now with rod-ends in the upper control arms, than With the trunion suspension in place with Poly bushings.

I'm setting a few things up so I can sell them to other who may be interested, I'll post more when I have that ready.

Smiley, To answer a few questions. The hood was made from the original mold used by Ronnie Kaplan for the '69 TA Javelins. The current owner of that mold was gracious enough to make one for me. Unlikely he will make any more unfortunately, He is a busy guy, and fortunately he lives near by and I drove over to get it. He doesn't do shipping and all that.

I'm using the QA1 Ball joint with a longer stud, this raises the a-arms on the ball-joint end. This will give better geometry at ride height, and a more aggressive camber curve. I can also dial in high caster angles as well, this is a significant improvement. I've checked every conceivable clearance for full suspension travel, lock to lock steering, etc. All is well and I can fit a 245/45-17 and perhaps even larger now.
With the coil-over in place, I can adjust suspension damping, ride height, and change out spring rates easily and inexpensively.

Admittedly the only thing I've not improved is anti-dive. That would require changing the mounts for the upper A-arm. On an AMC chassis this would require a bunch of fabrication. Perhaps I'll do this on the next car, but not on this one.

I'll try and post a pic with the new lower ride-height out front.
Cheers all.
Mike

[813Demon340]

I love your Javelin and what you're doing to improve the AMC suspension shortcomings. Count me in for a set of your A arms. I just picked up a 68 AMX to make a track/ street car out of and suspension improvements is high on the list. Can you do some rough measurements of the hood blister or some closer shots of it?

[mike343sharpstick]

Thank you. It's so much more fun to drive now!

I'll shoot you a PM with some more info, I'm working out all the details to be able to sell this in kit form.
It's basically three parts; an upper mount that bolts to the inner fender area, lower mount that bolts onto the stock lower control arm, and of course the upper control arm.
You will also need a set of 1970 and up AMC steering knuckles. You can pick up a set in a junk yard, or I have some NOS sets available as well.
You can use any number of off the shelf coil-overs with a 12-inch 400 lb spring.

It can be bolt-in, or also can be welded in. I have a couple guys I'm making a kit for now for initial testing and installation. I've been driving the heck out of the car for a few weeks to test the suspension, and some different alignment specs. I can't wait for others to try it out. Gotta' be careful on those Damn speed humps now.

I'll get you a few pics of the hood, if you google 1969 Kaplan Javelin you can see a few on the original TA car as well.

[mike343sharpstick]

141321
I threw together a before and after picture. I do need to drive a bit more carefully now over speed humps :drive:
Obviously just having a lower car is not necessarily better. The updated ride height I have now is based on having the lower control arm pivot points horizontal. It corners much better now, and I love the looks of the new ride height.
I should do a new glamor-shot of the car now, but I'd need to stop driving it and messing with various adjustments to wash it.

[mike343sharpstick]

My new front suspension has exceeded my expectations. Finally got to the AutoX track. This is my third autocross, ever, and my FIRST with this suspension. On the street it's better, on the track it's WAY better.
Last year at the Optima event in Kentucky I was struggling to get the front to stick.
All I've changed on the car was the front suspension, and went with 245-50/17 front tires.
I finished right in the middle of all the CAM participants.
It took a few runs to get use to the now more planted front with the back perhaps more loose than I'd like. I put together a great run on the last time out.
What a BLAST!
143406

And here is a pic of the back of the car not 'sticking' as much as I'd prefer on a right-hand corner cresting a hill. Sure was fun!
143407

[Nothingface5384]

My new front suspension has exceeded my expectations. Finally got to the AutoX track. This is my third autocross, ever, and my FIRST with this suspension. On the street it's better, on the track it's WAY better.
Last year at the Optima event in Kentucky I was struggling to get the front to stick.
All I've changed on the car was the front suspension, and went with 245-50/17 front tires.
I finished right in the middle of all the CAM participants.
It took a few runs to get use to the now more planted front with the back perhaps more loose than I'd like. I put together a great run on the last time out.
What a BLAST!
143406

And here is a pic of the back of the car not 'sticking' as much as I'd prefer on a right-hand corner cresting a hill. Sure was fun!
143407

Man I've been away from the pro tour scene..still have my 72 Skylark and my 75 hornet..just added a 78 volare

Man, that's some sweet custom.arms
Willing to make me some for my hornet?

[mike343sharpstick]

Thanks, This project has been very popular. I've been busy building kits for many AMC owners.
I have started work on developing a lower arm kit that will work with my upper control arm kit. I have a perpetual waiting list on the upper kit so I haven't had much extra time to get this completed.
The lower kit will replace the stock lower control arm and strut rod, but use tubular construction and race-style components. Same basic components as you would see on a modern TA2orGT1 race car. These lower control arms would fit on a 1970 or later AMC as well.
I could build some upper arms for a 1970 or later AMC but it would be a custom fabricated unit. I would need a complete set of upper control arms to build a fixture.

[Nothingface5384]

Thanks, This project has been very popular. I've been busy building kits for many AMC owners.
I have started work on developing a lower arm kit that will work with my upper control arm kit. I have a perpetual waiting list on the upper kit so I haven't had much extra time to get this completed.
The lower kit will replace the stock lower control arm and strut rod, but use tubular construction and race-style components. Same basic components as you would see on a modern TA2orGT1 race car. These lower control arms would fit on a 1970 or later AMC as well.
I could build some upper arms for a 1970 or later AMC but it would be a custom fabricated unit. I would need a complete set of upper control arms to build a fixture.

So lowers sound like what I'm wanting..just like how ride tech mustang lowers..made it a true A Arm ..no more stupid strut

Yeah, 70 and up arms work with every AMC model except pacer and eagles
If you need uppers I can send them.

[Bulletpruf]

Thanks, This project has been very popular. I've been busy building kits for many AMC owners.
I have started work on developing a lower arm kit that will work with my upper control arm kit. I have a perpetual waiting list on the upper kit so I haven't had much extra time to get this completed.
The lower kit will replace the stock lower control arm and strut rod, but use tubular construction and race-style components. Same basic components as you would see on a modern TA2orGT1 race car. These lower control arms would fit on a 1970 or later AMC as well.
I could build some upper arms for a 1970 or later AMC but it would be a custom fabricated unit. I would need a complete set of upper control arms to build a fixture.

Sending you a pm about your kits.

Thanks

Scott