CPP C5 spindles & hub - 2nd gen bird with C6 Z06 calipers/rotors?

[aronhk_md]

First, I think Tobin at Kore3 is an awesome guy, and I want to thank him for talking to me about trying to make some brake choices. I'm finally getting back to work on The BEAST, my 73 turbocharged Trans Am, and I'm trying to decide which way to go to put the C6 Z06 6 & 4 piston brakes on (instead of looking pretty on the shelf, looking pretty on the car). These are some options I have been trying to work through...

1) Modify my old spindle and cut the old rotor off the hub at a machine shop (I have the earlier style hubs with the smaller wheel bearing :( ), or mod the spindle and buy the Kore3 hubs for $319

2) Buy UBER expensive ATS spindles and then I'm assuming you run C5 hubs?

3) CPP sells their C5 conversion spindle AND hubs for $399 (this kit isn't on their website...the ones they show include stock C5 brakes, but if you ask for it they sell it this way too). They say its designed for 70-78 2nd gen Camaro (so I assume bird too, though not sure why they don't include 79-81 in there?) and keeps track width stock, and steering geometry stock.

I called them and asked if the C6 Z06 brakes will work on the C5 spindle/hubs, and they said they've mocked it up with their 67-69 setup.



Any input from the forum members with CPP stuff, or someone who has actually done this? CPP will take returns, but they have a 20% restocking fee, or no fee if you take store credit.

Thanks!

P.S - some nice pics of the CPP C5 brake kit with their upper and lower control arms can be seen here in this guy's thread

http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversion...l#post18714392

[gray86hach]

I bought Kore3 hubs and brackets. They are really nice.

Tech help is always quick.
All off the shelf wearable parts if you need them and are cheap.

Tim

[aronhk_md]

Yes, Tobin has great stuff, and I definitely plan to use what he has for the rear brakes. For the front though Kore3 hubs are $319, and the brackets to adapt the calipers are $95, plus they are using the smaller wheel bearings from my early year car. And I would still need to modify the spindles myself.

For $399 the CPP kit has new spindles designed for the 2nd gen geometry but allowing bolt on C5 (and C6 stuff right?) and the hubs use the more modern C5 bearings...which I believe are better. I just want to know if someone can verify that the Z06 6 piston calipers would bolt to this spindle using the Z06 14" rotors??? Or would an adapter bracket still be needed?

Thanks

[gray86hach]

Not sure if those spindles come with bearing but those are $310 a pair.

I would question cpp ability to properly engineer a spindle that is durable and has the geometry correct. Most arms are built to help the geometry.

Tim

[aronhk_md]

If you mean the CPP units from what I understand its spindles, hubs and bearings. From what I've read people are pretty happy with the CPP parts. Supposedly the spindles are built to keep 2nd gen geometry, but allow C5 stuff.....my question is does that also translate to the C6 Z06 brakes too?

As for arms being built to help geometry, that's not usually true from what I've read on 2nd gen stuff...factory geometry was pretty good on those cars, unlike first generation Camaros/firebirds. But I already have other arms, so wouldn't be using CPP arms.

So the question still is...does anyone know whether the C6 Z06 front brakes and 14" rotor will bolt up to a C5 spindle (in this case the CPP units, but really any C5 spindle)?

[rickpaw]

I "think" it will work, since the mounting holes for the abutment brackets are the same. Only the abutment brackets are different between a regular C5/C6 and c6 z06 due to the larger rotor diameter on the z06.

Can you get CPP to give you the mounting hole dimension?

[MonzaRacer]

All c5/c6 brakes interchange on Vette spindle. As for CPP I don't know, seen several people with issues from them, other no issus at all.
Bang for the buck so far my friend has two sets of ATS
/ Speedtech's spindles and he says its best cash he ever spent except for ridetech air ride for his Camaro and Ridetech coilovers for wife's.

[aronhk_md]

hey Lee...except the ATS are freakishly expensive. To me anyway. When you compare $1200+ for a set of spindles to $399 for spindles and hubs? That's a huge difference. For me the ATS spindles are just out. I'd modify mine and go with Kore3 hubs first.
Do you recall what the issues were with CPP? Was it the spindles or something else?

[rickpaw]

FWIW, the AFX spindles for 2nd gen F-body are sold only as part of suspension packages, according to Speedtech website. So that becomes a moot point.

I don't want to start another CPP vs. AFX spindles debate (that has been done to dead already), but if you start breaking down the cost of the individual parts, the AFX spindles are not that much more expensive.

[aronhk_md]

but if you start breaking down the cost of the individual parts, the AFX spindles are not that much more expensive.

Rick - I thought the ATS/AFX spindles were available separately? I know they used to be, and were well over a grand, so not sure how that equaled out to being "not that much more expensive? I guess I need to search more too as in my initial search I didn't come across much material regarding a CCP vs AFX debate. Sometimes its just figuring out what to search for...lol

[killer69]

[

So the question still is...does anyone know whether the C6 Z06 front brakes and 14" rotor will bolt up to a C5 spindle (in this case the CPP units, but really any C5 spindle)?[/QUOTE]

does CPP know the answer to your question?

[aronhk_md]

Their response when I asked was...they've mocked them up on the 1st gen C5 setup. But not the 2nd gen was what I took from that. Still, he seemed to imply that if it fit 1st gen it might 2nd gen.

[79-TA]

[

So the question still is...does anyone know whether the C6 Z06 front brakes and 14" rotor will bolt up to a C5 spindle (in this case the CPP units, but really any C5 spindle)?

does CPP know the answer to your question?

Yes.

The dimensions that matter are the same. That is, both the radial offset to the mounting holes from the center of rotation and the axial offset from the hub mounting surface to the knuckle mounting datum remain unchanged. You can find C5 guys upgrading to C6 Z06 brakes on the same steering knuckle.

CPP phone guy should have been able to give a confident answer.

This interchangeability is the whole advantage of these systems. I assume ATS had the same thing in mind with their four figure steering knuckles. That means you can look at running C6 Z06 brakes (if you do, skip the padlets and get real one piece pads) or other aftermarket kits made for C5/C6 Corvettes.

The C5 hubs CPP supplies with these kits will not be anything special. C5 hubs in themselves aren't great. If you're considering track days, look into getting ZR1 hubs. CPP sells just the knuckles without hubs.

As for the 2nd gen application, the CPP C5/C6 steering knuckles mimic the stock geometry, so nothing will alter your camber gain or bump steer. All aftermarket solutions that could be used on a stock 2nd gen steering knuckle can be applied to the CPP unit.


I'm wondering why they left out 79-81 also. Their website shows 70-81 in the product description. I know the '79 steering knuckles were stronger and featured a beefier spindle, but I don't know what about that would affect interchangeability to the ball joints.

http://www.classicperform.com/C5-Spi...5-Spindles.htm

[Takid455]

Maybe this will help. I recently went from C5 brakes to C6 Z06 brakes. No new brackets were needed. It was a direct bolt on/ off swap.

I happen to have Kore3 hubs.

I do have a set of ATS spindles and arms sitting in the original box unused.

[aronhk_md]

Thanks for the reply Brett. Yes, the 6 piston fronts I got are already loaded with one piece pads. I know the c5 hubs aren't that great, but if they survive 10,000 miles on a car that's a summer driver that probably puts me 3 yrs down the road at least. They'll just me a maintenance/wear item and I'll carry a spare.

I'm not expecting any gains in geometry. From what I have seen the geometry was pretty good for its time, and with my other suspension upgrades hopefully I can not lose too much time against the real race cars around corners and gain it back on straights. lol That's where the HP advantage comes into play...AND the need for good brakes. lol

[rickpaw]

Rick - I thought the ATS/AFX spindles were available separately? I know they used to be, and were well over a grand, so not sure how that equaled out to being "not that much more expensive? I guess I need to search more too as in my initial search I didn't come across much material regarding a CCP vs AFX debate. Sometimes its just figuring out what to search for...lol

Looks like you got your question answered regarding the brakes.

According to Speedtech website, the AFX spindles for 2nd gen are compatibles with Speedtech arms only. Therefore they're part of suspension packages only. The one for 1st-gen is available separately. I bought a set last Thanksgiving for my 67 Firebird.

As for cost, here's how I broke it down:
-CPP uses C5 bearing/hub. With the cost they charge for the bearing, I'd assume the bearings are made overseas.
-AFX spindles come with ZR1 hubs, which cost $300 a piece.

So for apple-apple comparison:
-CPP ($300)+ ZR1 hubs ($600)= $900
-Speedtech AFX spindle = $1200

For a difference of $300, you'll get a lighter spindle, improved suspension geometry, made in the US vs cast iron made overseas. The choice was clear for me. Granted, they're expensive in the beginning. I saved a long time in order to get the AFX spindles, but to me it was worth it. If they were on sale ($1000), that makes them even more attractive compared to CPP. This is for my application, which is 1st-gen F-body.

For your application, again it's a moot point, unless Blake can chime in and say otherwise.

[killer69]

Looks like you got your question answered regarding the brakes.

According to Speedtech website, the AFX spindles for 2nd gen are compatibles with Speedtech arms only. Therefore they're part of suspension packages only. The one for 1st-gen is available separately. I bought a set last Thanksgiving for my 67 Firebird.

As for cost, here's how I broke it down:
-CPP uses C5 bearing/hub. With the cost they charge for the bearing, I'd assume the bearings are made overseas.
-AFX spindles come with ZR1 hubs, which cost $300 a piece.

So for apple-apple comparison:
-CPP ($300)+ ZR1 hubs ($600)= $900
-Speedtech AFX spindle = $1200

For a difference of $300, you'll get a lighter spindle, improved suspension geometry, made in the US vs cast iron made overseas. The choice was clear for me. Granted, they're expensive in the beginning. I saved a long time in order to get the AFX spindles, but to me it was worth it. If they were on sale ($1000), that makes them even more attractive compared to CPP. This is for my application, which is 1st-gen F-body.

For your application, again it's a moot point, unless Blake can chime in and say otherwise.

Not sure what else you would like me to add. (the commission check is in the mail...lol) the AFX spindle is what it is, no one is retiring buy selling them. They are EXPENSIVE to produce, Oh and I just got word that our forging cost is going up AGAIN!!. Here's the difference. The forging dies cost over 50,000 to make, the material starts as 10" round bar 7075 Aluminum. (We have to order on average 400 at a time $$$$. )it gets heated, and 2 strike forged, (so the die has 2 "shapes" in it the first is a rough shape the part goes in it is "struck" they then move that part to the finished "shape" and then strike it again. they are then allowed to cool they are then heat treated to a t75 hardness, each is hand checked for hardness, the rejection rate is only about 5% on average. once they are done at the forging company, they are shipped to the machine shop, there they go through another Die check to confirm the grain structure. then they start the 5 op machining process. again they are checked and once don machining they are tumbled to remove any sharp machining edges, from there each one is bubble wrapped and shipped to us. we order the hubs 80-100 at a time, and they need to be machined as well. it is a 2 op process to mill the hole in the mounting flange and then drill and face the threaded hole so it will accept a bolt. We assemble and box them. we use 3 boxes for each set and there you go.
they get a lot of handling and checking to make sure YOU get the best product!.

[Nicks67GTO]

Im not sure how tight your budget is but I know on A body cars you can use the stock drum hub.

You just need to turn down the outside diameter of the hub to under 6" and add some longer studs and you're in business. I know it works for A body cars. I'm not 100% sure about 2nd gen F body cars. If you have your stock hubs it may be worth a check.

With that said, I currently have Kore3 hubs and brackets and they are very nice pieces.

Now with THAT said.... I really wish I had just ordered the fancy AFX spindles and been done with it in the first place. I didn't realize that they made a huge difference in handling above the tall ball joint option on my SC&C package. It was my oversight. Oh well live and learn. In the future I will probably reuse the Kore3 hubs on my next Chevelle project and opt for the AFX spindles on my GTO.

[aronhk_md]

Blake - I understand you are proud of your product, and with good reason, but this thread isn't about what goes into making your product. I can understand you have a lot invested and aren't getting rich from it. In this case, it IS a moot point though since you don't offer your spindle without the subframe, though I thought once upon a time it was? But let's say for a moment you did.

For someone like me I can't justify the extra expense over your "competition", and they are competing products in the sense that guys will either make a decision to buy yours or another manufacturers. For all the effort that goes into making yours strong...there is not any real evidence out there that the competition has had any that have broken. The hub design you have is better, but the other one works and there ARE very fast cars using C5 hubs, even if they need to be replaced every so often they are $40 on ebay. The final piece of the puzzle is geometry improvements. For guys like me doing a bit of weekend racing how much would we benefit by an improvement that only perhaps a seasoned driver would notice?

To me its like the horsepower wars. There will ALWAYS be someone with more than I have. The deeper into it you go, the more you pay for marginally smaller gains in horsepower. To the serious racer, there is no other choice but to pursue that "edge". To me as a hobbyist with a budget I compromise.

I'm spending over a grand on C6 Z06 brakes because they will provide me a major improvement over what I had, and its those major improvements for reasonable investment I will continue to pursue. Its just not in the cards to have a $200,000 car here.

If I win the lottery though I'll come knock on your door and I'll spend a fortune on everything you have!

[71maroesteban]

Ever get a for sure on this? I for one would love to use speed tech spindles but since I'm going to be using ridetech arms I'm guessing they won't sell them to me and I'd like to run a spindle with a bigger bearing maybe I'll just need to settle for finding some 79 to 81 camaro spindle?:/