CPP C5 spindles & hub - 2nd gen bird with C6 Z06 calipers/rotors?

[aronhk_md]

First, I think Tobin at Kore3 is an awesome guy, and I want to thank him for talking to me about trying to make some brake choices. I'm finally getting back to work on The BEAST, my 73 turbocharged Trans Am, and I'm trying to decide which way to go to put the C6 Z06 6 & 4 piston brakes on (instead of looking pretty on the shelf, looking pretty on the car). These are some options I have been trying to work through...

1) Modify my old spindle and cut the old rotor off the hub at a machine shop (I have the earlier style hubs with the smaller wheel bearing :( ), or mod the spindle and buy the Kore3 hubs for $319

2) Buy UBER expensive ATS spindles and then I'm assuming you run C5 hubs?

3) CPP sells their C5 conversion spindle AND hubs for $399 (this kit isn't on their website...the ones they show include stock C5 brakes, but if you ask for it they sell it this way too). They say its designed for 70-78 2nd gen Camaro (so I assume bird too, though not sure why they don't include 79-81 in there?) and keeps track width stock, and steering geometry stock.

I called them and asked if the C6 Z06 brakes will work on the C5 spindle/hubs, and they said they've mocked it up with their 67-69 setup.

Any input from the forum members with CPP stuff, or someone who has actually done this? CPP will take returns, but they have a 20% restocking fee, or no fee if you take store credit.

Thanks!

P.S - some nice pics of the CPP C5 brake kit with their upper and lower control arms can be seen here in this guy's thread

http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1762425-1970-camaro-pro-touring-build-montata-3.html#post18714392

[gray86hach]

I bought Kore3 hubs and brackets. They are really nice.

Tech help is always quick.
All off the shelf wearable parts if you need them and are cheap.

Tim

[aronhk_md]

Yes, Tobin has great stuff, and I definitely plan to use what he has for the rear brakes. For the front though Kore3 hubs are $319, and the brackets to adapt the calipers are $95, plus they are using the smaller wheel bearings from my early year car. And I would still need to modify the spindles myself.

For $399 the CPP kit has new spindles designed for the 2nd gen geometry but allowing bolt on C5 (and C6 stuff right?) and the hubs use the more modern C5 bearings...which I believe are better. I just want to know if someone can verify that the Z06 6 piston calipers would bolt to this spindle using the Z06 14" rotors??? Or would an adapter bracket still be needed?

Thanks

[gray86hach]

Not sure if those spindles come with bearing but those are $310 a pair.

I would question cpp ability to properly engineer a spindle that is durable and has the geometry correct. Most arms are built to help the geometry.

Tim

[aronhk_md]

If you mean the CPP units from what I understand its spindles, hubs and bearings. From what I've read people are pretty happy with the CPP parts. Supposedly the spindles are built to keep 2nd gen geometry, but allow C5 stuff.....my question is does that also translate to the C6 Z06 brakes too?

As for arms being built to help geometry, that's not usually true from what I've read on 2nd gen stuff...factory geometry was pretty good on those cars, unlike first generation Camaros/firebirds. But I already have other arms, so wouldn't be using CPP arms.

So the question still is...does anyone know whether the C6 Z06 front brakes and 14" rotor will bolt up to a C5 spindle (in this case the CPP units, but really any C5 spindle)?

[rickpaw]

I "think" it will work, since the mounting holes for the abutment brackets are the same. Only the abutment brackets are different between a regular C5/C6 and c6 z06 due to the larger rotor diameter on the z06.

Can you get CPP to give you the mounting hole dimension?

[MonzaRacer]

All c5/c6 brakes interchange on Vette spindle. As for CPP I don't know, seen several people with issues from them, other no issus at all.
Bang for the buck so far my friend has two sets of ATS
/ Speedtech's spindles and he says its best cash he ever spent except for Ridetech air ride for his Camaro and Ridetech coilovers for wife's.

[aronhk_md]

hey Lee...except the ATS are freakishly expensive. To me anyway. When you compare $1200+ for a set of spindles to $399 for spindles and hubs? That's a huge difference. For me the ATS spindles are just out. I'd modify mine and go with Kore3 hubs first.
Do you recall what the issues were with CPP? Was it the spindles or something else?

[rickpaw]

FWIW, the AFX spindles for 2nd gen F-body are sold only as part of suspension packages, according to Speedtech website. So that becomes a moot point.

I don't want to start another CPP vs. AFX spindles debate (that has been done to dead already), but if you start breaking down the cost of the individual parts, the AFX spindles are not that much more expensive.

[aronhk_md]

but if you start breaking down the cost of the individual parts, the AFX spindles are not that much more expensive.

Rick - I thought the ATS/AFX spindles were available separately? I know they used to be, and were well over a grand, so not sure how that equaled out to being "not that much more expensive? I guess I need to search more too as in my initial search I didn't come across much material regarding a CCP vs AFX debate. Sometimes its just figuring out what to search for...lol

[killer69]

[

So the question still is...does anyone know whether the C6 Z06 front brakes and 14" rotor will bolt up to a C5 spindle (in this case the CPP units, but really any C5 spindle)?[/QUOTE]

does CPP know the answer to your question?

[aronhk_md]

Their response when I asked was...they've mocked them up on the 1st gen C5 setup. But not the 2nd gen was what I took from that. Still, he seemed to imply that if it fit 1st gen it might 2nd gen.

[79-TA]

[

So the question still is...does anyone know whether the C6 Z06 front brakes and 14" rotor will bolt up to a C5 spindle (in this case the CPP units, but really any C5 spindle)?

does CPP know the answer to your question?

Yes.

The dimensions that matter are the same. That is, both the radial offset to the mounting holes from the center of rotation and the axial offset from the hub mounting surface to the knuckle mounting datum remain unchanged. You can find C5 guys upgrading to C6 Z06 brakes on the same steering knuckle.

CPP phone guy should have been able to give a confident answer.

This interchangeability is the whole advantage of these systems. I assume ATS had the same thing in mind with their four figure steering knuckles. That means you can look at running C6 Z06 brakes (if you do, skip the padlets and get real one piece pads) or other aftermarket kits made for C5/C6 Corvettes.

The C5 hubs CPP supplies with these kits will not be anything special. C5 hubs in themselves aren't great. If you're considering track days, look into getting ZR1 hubs. CPP sells just the knuckles without hubs.

As for the 2nd gen application, the CPP C5/C6 steering knuckles mimic the stock geometry, so nothing will alter your camber gain or bump steer. All aftermarket solutions that could be used on a stock 2nd gen steering knuckle can be applied to the CPP unit.


I'm wondering why they left out 79-81 also. Their website shows 70-81 in the product description. I know the '79 steering knuckles were stronger and featured a beefier spindle, but I don't know what about that would affect interchangeability to the ball joints.

http://www.classicperform.com/C5-Spindles/C5-Spindles.htm

[Takid455]

Maybe this will help. I recently went from C5 brakes to C6 Z06 brakes. No new brackets were needed. It was a direct bolt on/ off swap.

I happen to have Kore3 hubs.

I do have a set of ATS spindles and arms sitting in the original box unused.

[aronhk_md]

Thanks for the reply Brett. Yes, the 6 piston fronts I got are already loaded with one piece pads. I know the c5 hubs aren't that great, but if they survive 10,000 miles on a car that's a summer driver that probably puts me 3 yrs down the road at least. They'll just me a maintenance/wear item and I'll carry a spare.

I'm not expecting any gains in geometry. From what I have seen the geometry was pretty good for its time, and with my other suspension upgrades hopefully I can not lose too much time against the real race cars around corners and gain it back on straights. lol That's where the HP advantage comes into play...AND the need for good brakes. lol

[rickpaw]

Rick - I thought the ATS/AFX spindles were available separately? I know they used to be, and were well over a grand, so not sure how that equaled out to being "not that much more expensive? I guess I need to search more too as in my initial search I didn't come across much material regarding a CCP vs AFX debate. Sometimes its just figuring out what to search for...lol

Looks like you got your question answered regarding the brakes.

According to Speedtech website, the AFX spindles for 2nd gen are compatibles with Speedtech arms only. Therefore they're part of suspension packages only. The one for 1st-gen is available separately. I bought a set last Thanksgiving for my 67 Firebird.

As for cost, here's how I broke it down:
-CPP uses C5 bearing/hub. With the cost they charge for the bearing, I'd assume the bearings are made overseas.
-AFX spindles come with ZR1 hubs, which cost $300 a piece.

So for apple-apple comparison:
-CPP ($300)+ ZR1 hubs ($600)= $900
-Speedtech AFX spindle = $1200

For a difference of $300, you'll get a lighter spindle, improved suspension geometry, made in the US vs cast iron made overseas. The choice was clear for me. Granted, they're expensive in the beginning. I saved a long time in order to get the AFX spindles, but to me it was worth it. If they were on sale ($1000), that makes them even more attractive compared to CPP. This is for my application, which is 1st-gen F-body.

For your application, again it's a moot point, unless Blake can chime in and say otherwise.

[killer69]

Looks like you got your question answered regarding the brakes.

According to Speedtech website, the AFX spindles for 2nd gen are compatibles with Speedtech arms only. Therefore they're part of suspension packages only. The one for 1st-gen is available separately. I bought a set last Thanksgiving for my 67 Firebird.

As for cost, here's how I broke it down:
-CPP uses C5 bearing/hub. With the cost they charge for the bearing, I'd assume the bearings are made overseas.
-AFX spindles come with ZR1 hubs, which cost $300 a piece.

So for apple-apple comparison:
-CPP ($300)+ ZR1 hubs ($600)= $900
-Speedtech AFX spindle = $1200

For a difference of $300, you'll get a lighter spindle, improved suspension geometry, made in the US vs cast iron made overseas. The choice was clear for me. Granted, they're expensive in the beginning. I saved a long time in order to get the AFX spindles, but to me it was worth it. If they were on sale ($1000), that makes them even more attractive compared to CPP. This is for my application, which is 1st-gen F-body.

For your application, again it's a moot point, unless Blake can chime in and say otherwise.

Not sure what else you would like me to add. (the commission check is in the mail...lol) the AFX spindle is what it is, no one is retiring buy selling them. They are EXPENSIVE to produce, Oh and I just got word that our forging cost is going up AGAIN!!. Here's the difference. The forging dies cost over 50,000 to make, the material starts as 10" round bar 7075 Aluminum. (We have to order on average 400 at a time $$$$. )it gets heated, and 2 strike forged, (so the die has 2 "shapes" in it the first is a rough shape the part goes in it is "struck" they then move that part to the finished "shape" and then strike it again. they are then allowed to cool they are then heat treated to a t75 hardness, each is hand checked for hardness, the rejection rate is only about 5% on average. once they are done at the forging company, they are shipped to the machine shop, there they go through another Die check to confirm the grain structure. then they start the 5 op machining process. again they are checked and once don machining they are tumbled to remove any sharp machining edges, from there each one is bubble wrapped and shipped to us. we order the hubs 80-100 at a time, and they need to be machined as well. it is a 2 op process to mill the hole in the mounting flange and then drill and face the threaded hole so it will accept a bolt. We assemble and box them. we use 3 boxes for each set and there you go.
they get a lot of handling and checking to make sure YOU get the best product!.

[Nicks67GTO]

Im not sure how tight your budget is but I know on A body cars you can use the stock drum hub.

You just need to turn down the outside diameter of the hub to under 6" and add some longer studs and you're in business. I know it works for A body cars. I'm not 100% sure about 2nd gen F body cars. If you have your stock hubs it may be worth a check.

With that said, I currently have Kore3 hubs and brackets and they are very nice pieces.

Now with THAT said.... I really wish I had just ordered the fancy AFX spindles and been done with it in the first place. I didn't realize that they made a huge difference in handling above the tall ball joint option on my SC&C package. It was my oversight. Oh well live and learn. In the future I will probably reuse the Kore3 hubs on my next Chevelle project and opt for the AFX spindles on my GTO.

[aronhk_md]

Blake - I understand you are proud of your product, and with good reason, but this thread isn't about what goes into making your product. I can understand you have a lot invested and aren't getting rich from it. In this case, it IS a moot point though since you don't offer your spindle without the subframe, though I thought once upon a time it was? But let's say for a moment you did.

For someone like me I can't justify the extra expense over your "competition", and they are competing products in the sense that guys will either make a decision to buy yours or another manufacturers. For all the effort that goes into making yours strong...there is not any real evidence out there that the competition has had any that have broken. The hub design you have is better, but the other one works and there ARE very fast cars using C5 hubs, even if they need to be replaced every so often they are $40 on ebay. The final piece of the puzzle is geometry improvements. For guys like me doing a bit of weekend racing how much would we benefit by an improvement that only perhaps a seasoned driver would notice?

To me its like the horsepower wars. There will ALWAYS be someone with more than I have. The deeper into it you go, the more you pay for marginally smaller gains in horsepower. To the serious racer, there is no other choice but to pursue that "edge". To me as a hobbyist with a budget I compromise.

I'm spending over a grand on C6 Z06 brakes because they will provide me a major improvement over what I had, and its those major improvements for reasonable investment I will continue to pursue. Its just not in the cards to have a $200,000 car here.

If I win the lottery though I'll come knock on your door and I'll spend a fortune on everything you have!

[71maroesteban]

Ever get a for sure on this? I for one would love to use speed tech spindles but since I'm going to be using ridetech arms I'm guessing they won't sell them to me and I'd like to run a spindle with a bigger bearing maybe I'll just need to settle for finding some 79 to 81 camaro spindle?:/

[aronhk_md]

Hey 71maro

From what I've been told here and in private it seems for sure. This is the deal though. CPP the kit is $399. You have to call them and specifically ask for the kit with just spindles and hubs because its not in their catalog or online, though they do have a number for the kit (7081SH-K). To be 100% sure though and in case I had to return them I checked the return policy. They will take it back for complete store credit or give cash back with a 20% restocking fee. YUCK.

But then I read somewhere that Summit carries the CPP products. Looking over on Summit they didn't have this particular kit though the other CPP stuff they had often seemed to be a few bucks less than CPP sells it for themselves! In addition, Summit has a no hassle return policy. So I called them and they said give them an hour and they would add the kit. Although I have yet to see it in an online search, they added the kit (CLP-7081SH-K), but for $449. Talk about disappointed. Called them back and the guy I spoke with said they'll beat an advertised price, but since the item isn't in CPP's catalog or online they can't match it. I went round and round with him trying to get him to call and verify with CPP, but he said they don't do it that way.

Then I found the CPP kit on ebay. Its not listed with their part number, but CPP IS the seller, and its definitely THIS kit. Here's the current ebay link.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/381197338237?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

For those who come later and the link is bad because the auction is over, the title on ebay was CAMARO SPINDLES SET UP FOR C5 CORVETTE PARTS DISC BRAKE SPINDLE, then the subtitle said "Camaro C5 Spindle & Hubs! Only from CPP!!" and CPP's user name on ebay is "classic_performance_cpp" This kit is $379 on ebay with $25 shipping....BUT if summit matches the price we might get it for $379 with free shipping, since all their orders over $99 are free shipping.

My intent was to go back to Summit with this info and say hey look...This is the kit, and now here you have an advertised price BY CPP themselves on ebay and see if I can get them to match.

But there is another maybe better way yet to do this. Summit DOES sell just the C5 conversion spindles. This is summit's part # (CP30014), and if you look at the application chart it shows 70-81 Camaros. The spindles alone from Summit are $249.97 with free shipping. Then I looked up C5 hubs on ebay, and the cheapest with free shipping were these. I grabbed a few sellers in case one runs out. But basically they are $39 each shipped.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/231118418676?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.com/itm/310806677437?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.com/itm/201300244428?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

So with the spindles from Summit (and no hassle return policy if something doesn't fit) plus the ebay C5 hubs the total price is $328. Just be aware that if you do it this way most of the ebay sellers don't have a return policy for the hubs. You'd have to go sell them on a forum somewhere if you needed to.

So.......see if Summit will match CPP's ebay price of $379 for the spindles and hubs and give free shipping? Or buy the spindles straight Summit and get the hubs from ebay and save another $50?

LOL

[1nastyZ06]

I have the Scott Mock subframe and it came with C6 spindles and C6Z hubs and it's an awesome setup. Then CPP C5/C6 spindle setup is very high quality for both the 1st gen and 2nd gen Fbody and I would not hesitate to get those and run them on my 69 or 2nd gen. Actually I was looking into ordering the CPP C5/C6 spindle and hub setup for my 69 and then I came across a killer deal on my Scott mock I just couldn't pass up.
My dad has the Speed Tech subframe with the ATS spindles and C6Z hubs and I think you should go with the CPP setup and invest the $1000+ you save for other suspension parts or other performance parts.

And yes the C6Z brakes will bolt right up to the CPP C5/C6spindles with no adapters or any other stuff. I am using the C6Z brakes on my front setup. And btw another option would be the CPP modular drop spindles are forged and you can bolt up C5/C6 and Z06 brakes with their adaptor bracket. You really can't beat them for the money.

[csouth]

I have the Scott Mock subframe and it came with C6 spindles and C6Z hubs and it's an awesome setup. Then CPP C5/C6 spindle setup is very high quality for both the 1st gen and 2nd gen Fbody and I would not hesitate to get those and run them on my 69 or 2nd gen. Actually I was ordering the CPP C5/C6 spindle and hub setup for my 69 and then I came across a killer deal on my Scott mock I just couldn't pass up.
My dad has the Speed Tech subframe with the ATS spindles and C6Z hubs and I would say by looking at his setup compared to mine as well as the CPP spindle setup that I just don't see a $1000 difference in quality between mine and the CPP compared to ATS. I think you should go with the CPP setup and invest the $1000+ you save for other suspension parts or other performance parts.

And yes the C6Z brakes will bolt right up to the CPP spindles with no adapters or any other stuff. I am using the C6Z brakes on my front setup. And btw the CPP spindles are forged also. You really can't beat them for the money.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the CPP spindles are NOT forged, they are cast from iron. Please don't compare your the OEM components Scott Mock used on your sub to CPP. Scott designed his subframe to work around factory components. You might not SEE the difference in the price, but you can always find the metallurgy info on the OEM part and the ATS spindles. I have yet to see any facts on the CPP spindles to date.

[1nastyZ06]

I wasn't comparing my spindles to CPP at least as far as quality. There are very few aftermarket manufacturers who can make something comparable to OEM quality. ATS is very nice stuff. For that he is trying to do though the CPP spindles will be fine. And I was mistaken about the CPP C5 spindles being forged. They are not. I was thinking about their "Modular Drop" spindles which are forged and work with aftermarket brake kits and can easily be made to work with C5/C6 brakes including Z06.

[aronhk_md]

Forged, not forged...doesn't really matter to me right now. I've never heard of one of their spindles breaking. But I'll be the first to post here if it happens. lol Honestly its not even a $1000 difference between a 2nd gen on ATS and CPP, since Speed Tech does not sell these spindles alone for 2nd gen. So its a choice...spend $325, or many thousands of $ for their entire subframe and the spindles too. Just not in the cards for this car or time in my life. For those who can I applaude them because they have a great product. There is always the choice to use OEM spindles, and the mod is not difficult. But then you have to either buy the Kore3 hubs (assuming you have the later bearing type, not earlier type spindles) or modify a set of OEM hubs.

For $329 I'm trying the CPP route.

[rberry]

Can I jump in on this subject of corvette brakes, and ask a question? I have a 69 camaro that I have built a custom brake system ( in other words I've created a mess) I am running c6 zo6 rotors 14". I started out using a 69 camaro drum brake hub the problem was that the hub didn't fit into the rotor hub Reg. 70.7 mm so I machined down the outer dim. of the hub to fit, this always concerned me about it's strength, but now it seems that the hub face was not fitting right in the rotor away and when the discount tire people torqued the "crap" out of the lug the hub is now bent warped. Any ideas what hub and where to get a pair of the correct hubs?

[rickpaw]

Can I jump in on this subject of corvette brakes, and ask a question? I have a 69 camaro that I have built a custom brake system ( in other words I've created a mess) I am running c6 zo6 rotors 14". I started out using a 69 camaro drum brake hub the problem was that the hub didn't fit into the rotor hub Reg. 70.7 mm so I machined down the outer dim. of the hub to fit, this always concerned me about it's strength, but now it seems that the hub face was not fitting right in the rotor away and when the discount tire people torqued the "crap" out of the lug the hub is now bent warped. Any ideas what hub and where to get a pair of the correct hubs?

Kore3.com.

Tobin will get you set up.

[csouth]

Forged, not forged...doesn't really matter to me right now. I've never heard of one of their spindles breaking. But I'll be the first to post here if it happens. lol Honestly its not even a $1000 difference between a 2nd gen on ATS and CPP, since Speed Tech does not sell these spindles alone for 2nd gen. So its a choice...spend $325, or many thousands of $ for their entire subframe and the spindles too. Just not in the cards for this car or time in my life. For those who can I applaude them because they have a great product. There is always the choice to use OEM spindles, and the mod is not difficult. But then you have to either buy the Kore3 hubs (assuming you have the later bearing type, not earlier type spindles) or modify a set of OEM hubs.

For $329 I'm trying the CPP route.

My post on the correction was merely in case someone reads this thread in the future and becomes misinformed. It happens far to often in the interweb....

[1nastyZ06]

Yep. And that was why I corrected my post as well. I misremembered but I don't want incorrect info being posted either.

BTW you will be just fine with the CPP setup. It's a nice setup and you really can't beat it for the money and will def get the job done. When I checked them out in person i was surprised at how nice they were.

[DB Z28]

The wheel bearing size on 79-81 is larger than 70-78

[RLJ676]

Great idea. And basically just as cost effective as the cheapest route I could find, which was using classic works adapter kit which doesn't seem as nice of a hub compared to C5. This also gets rid of having to run a bigger cap on my wheels on order.

$250 at summit plust $80 on ebay is only a $30 premium, and much cheaper than the Kore 3 hub+adapter (which does look very quality).

Now the question is Z51 C6 setup or Z06...

[1nastyZ06]

Can I just ask why you feel the need to run the ZR1 hubs? Especially considering that there are a lot of cars running C5 hubs or C6Z hubs with absolutely zero problems. And these guys are out tracking their cars extremely hard and not having any issues whatsoever. Also you have to remember our cars aren't seeing 10k miles a year. They would be lucky to have that many miles put on them in 4-5 years. And there are plenty of guys running C5 and C5 Z06 corvettes with stock hubs with 80k+ miles on them and they are also tracking their cars with that kind of mileage on their setups and they aren't having any problems. So I don't know why you think you would have any problems with that setup or why you think you need ZR1 hubs other than just to say you have them.



Looks like you got your question answered regarding the brakes.

According to Speedtech website, the AFX spindles for 2nd gen are compatibles with Speedtech arms only. Therefore they're part of suspension packages only. The one for 1st-gen is available separately. I bought a set last Thanksgiving for my 67 Firebird.

As for cost, here's how I broke it down:
-CPP uses C5 bearing/hub. With the cost they charge for the bearing, I'd assume the bearings are made overseas.
-AFX spindles come with ZR1 hubs, which cost $300 a piece.

So for apple-apple comparison:
-CPP ($300)+ ZR1 hubs ($600)= $900
-Speedtech AFX spindle = $1200

For a difference of $300, you'll get a lighter spindle, improved suspension geometry, made in the US vs cast iron made overseas. The choice was clear for me. Granted, they're expensive in the beginning. I saved a long time in order to get the AFX spindles, but to me it was worth it. If they were on sale ($1000), that makes them even more attractive compared to CPP. This is for my application, which is 1st-gen F-body.

For your application, again it's a moot point, unless Blake can chime in and say otherwise.