Josue
01-16-2015, 08:25 AM
Looking to start a little discussion to get some ideas for my parents'/soon to me mine, '68 Firebird. I already made a thread asking what to do with my budget, new drivetrain vs. upgrading the surrounding cast of characters, but now I'm looking for specific ideas within my budget. There obviously won't be any building or progress pics to share just yet, but once I get the car, money, parts, etc. later this summer, then I'll turn this into a build thread. Quick background on the car...
They originally bought the car for me back in 1996 when I was 13, from my 8th grade history teacher. for $1,700! Interior was in very good shape and all original, body needed quarters, doors, and fenders, but everything else was solid, and the motor was original and untouched. We tinkered around with it for a few years, but I became more interested in lowrider trucks by the time I got my license, so they kept the Firebird for themselves all these years. It's still mostly original though, they had the body work done about 10 years ago, new fenders, doors, quarters, inner quarters, and the color is C5 Corvette Millennium yellow, interior is still all original minus some A/M gauges, and the only thing the motor was taken apart for was a mild cam (not that the WHOLE motor was "taken apart", I just mean that other than a cam, everything inside is still untouched). Other than that, just bolt ons...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/01/20150115_131113_zpstbozesmd-1.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/josue309/media/1968%20Firebird/20150115_131113_zpstbozesmd.jpg.html)
It needed tires, so he bought a new set of Eagle II's along with these god awful trailer wheels for it. They were like $50/ea at the time. lol
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/01/20150115_131157_zpsph8hah1c-1.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/josue309/media/1968%20Firebird/20150115_131157_zpsph8hah1c.jpg.html)
Out with the old, in with the new! My first car was this '72 Nova, but the Firebird was in better shape, so we sold the Nova in favor of the Firebird.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/01/20150115_131226_zpsm2rgl6tz-1.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/josue309/media/1968%20Firebird/20150115_131226_zpsm2rgl6tz.jpg.html)
And today...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/01/20140718_190041_zpselqrntjo-1.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/josue309/media/1968%20Firebird/20140718_190041_zpselqrntjo.jpg.html)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/01/20140718_190108_zpsrwbzvctg-1.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/josue309/media/1968%20Firebird/20140718_190108_zpsrwbzvctg.jpg.html)
Now...here's my situation.
I'll be taking out a loan for this car come summertime. They're only selling it to me for $12,000, but I'm taking out the full appraised value, around $22,000-$25,000, so I'll have that much leftover for upgrades. My plans for the car are typical, do the most I can for the budget I have. I'd love to road race the car from time to time, but in reality, that won't happen for years and years, so for now it will just be a mild street build. The car will be a boarderline daily driver, seeing the road whenever it isn't raining, from the time the salt is off the roads, to the time the leaves stop falling.
From my research, I have some good ideas for upgraded suspension and brakes. I'm allowing $3,000 for suspension, and $2,000 brakes. And obviously, the less I spend on any 1 aspect of the car, the more I can spend on another. I'm looking at this suspension package...
http://scandc.com/new/node/984
Honestly, I'm kind of lazy. lol I'm not into scouring the interweb day and night, trying to find every piece and part needed for my DIY "kit". I'm willing to pay a little more for a complete, one stop shop kit...no muss, no fuss. The jury is still out on this kit though, just because there are so many others to choose from. Hotchkis' complete kit is around $1,800 I think, and DSE's is around $2,200. But their kit is front only, it'd be $3,000 for front and back. Ridetech is a great value for what you get, but I don't know if I want to drop $4,000 for a whole set of A-Arms (vs. just uppers in the SC&C package) coilovers, and a 4 link. I just think that might be overkill for my application?
Brakes - the car has manual drums on all 4 corners, so I'll need a total conversion there. Matt's Classic Bowties had this kit that peaked my interest...
http://www.mattsclassicbowties.com/contents/en-us/d2366.html
So, a little over $1,500 there, plus I'd replace the hardlines too, shipping, brake fluid, etc. So that's where my $2,000 figure for a conversion comes from. I suppose I could get away with one of those factory type setups from the parts catalogs, but I don't know how "performance" oriented they are? Again, not that I'm going to be tracking the car, but I'm still a spirited driver on the streets. lol Maybe I could just do some nice Hawk street pads or something like that with those kits? In which case those kits are around $1,000. Or, I've seen the threads with people piecing together 4th gen and C5 DIY kits for around $1,000 too, but again, I really don't like all the parts sourcing that needs done. It IS nice that the one thread exists that tells you exactly what to buy and where to find it though, so I'm still considering that as a viable option. Saving $500-$600 would be nice!
Wheels - I'd love the 18" Bandit honeycomb wheels from Year One, but spending $3,000+ on billet wheels is a good chunk of my budget!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/12/Banditwheels2_zpsaba542fc-1.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/josue309/media/1968%20Firebird/Banditwheels2_zpsaba542fc.jpg.html)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/12/Banditwheels_zps475a089e-1.jpeg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/josue309/media/1968%20Firebird/Banditwheels_zps475a089e.jpeg.html)
But, after seeing Quikbrd's '69 with cast 17" snowflakes that he had polished, I'm really liking this cheaper option! $800-ish for the wheels, then tires, mounting, etc. maybe $1,500 for everything?
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/01/image_zpsc7flnbkw-1.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/josue309/media/1968%20Firebird/image_zpsc7flnbkw.jpg.html)
I love the idea of staying with some Pontiac history with the wheel choice, and honestly, nothing else out there really peaks my interest.
Then there are some odds and ends I'd like to do. New, brighter headlights would be nice, for all the night time driving I'll be doing. I haven't looked into anything for these old cars like that though.
The steering I'd like addressed...I can't deal with the amount of SLOP these old cars have! A few options here it seems, DSE 600 steering gear, or a Lee box. Then there are whole, bolt in rack and pinion systems that weren't as expensive as I imagined them to be. My question here though, is what else "extra" would I need? I.E.- on DSE's website, they offer rag joints, adapters, fittings, this that and the other.....what all do I need to replace? Someone suggested a new PS pump too.
I'd like to do some solid body bushings, maybe get the SC&C bushing kit they offer to combat NVH. And, the other big item that is important to me is, seat belts. Given the amount of time I plan on being behind the wheel of this thing, I'd like a good set of 3 way belts, so around $600 there. I'll probably do the back seats too, I'll have a 3 and a 1 year old this summer, so I want to make sure I can correctly and safely install their car seats in the back.
I might have around $2,000 leftover to spend. The car has a basic 350 Pontiac. I seriously doubt it's ever been rebuilt, and again, the only thing new internally is a mild cam. My dad just wanted something that lopes, for sound. We put a Holley 650 on, an Edelbrock intake, Hooker headers, full 3" flowmaster dual exhaust with H pipe, and a aluminum radiator. We also put some kind of high performance water pump on it last summer, to try and combat an overheating issue my dad claimed it had. That was the reason for the new radiator too. Transmission is a 2sp powerglide.
It runs and drives, but barely gets out of its own way. lol I was thinking I'd like to address that powerglide, see if I could inexpensively swap in an OD transmission since I plan to drive the car a ton, but I don't know what works and what doesn't. 700R4, 4L60, 4L65E, 70/70E, 80/80E, lots of options it seems. New bell housing? How do you hook up the speedo? Should I get a stall converter? Any other electronics on these newer transmissions that need addressed? I'd love a manual swap, a TKO 500 or 600, but if I could get away with a nice OD auto for $1500 or less, then I'd be into that too. Or, I see all the time, people selling Muncie 4speed "kits" for around $1,000. I'd probably still need to buy a piece or 2, but that could be a cool swap. I already have a clutch pedal for it.
I'm really not sure what rear end is back there, other than whatever it came from the factory with. The gears are low I believe, and there's nothing wrong with the setup.
The only other driveability based item that I'd loved to tackle would be EFI. I know jack squat about carbs, and I'd love to be able to get in the car and go whenever I want, without worrying about chokes, pumping it up, cold weather starts, etc. I'd love an LS swap for this reason, but that's not in the cards obviously, and to be honest...I'm a little put off by the swap. As popular as they've become, again, still a LOT of parts sourcing to be done! Engine harness', headers, engine mounts, cooling, computers, gas pedals, front accy. drives...all kinds of WTF. Then with each part needed, there are literally dozens of suppliers to choose from...oy vey!
As much of a Firebird/Pontiac enthusiast as I'd consider myself though, I'm not THAT die hard about keeping this thing Pontiac powered. All 3 major Pontiac builders quoted me $7,000-$10,000 for a mildly built 400 that would get me in the 12's. I guess ideally I'd love a procharged, EFI Pontiac motor in this thing, but I'm not willing to spend 2-3 times what an LS swap would be. For now though, it's all about stretching the life out of this 350, or a nice situation would be to find someone selling a running 400 out of their project for $2,000-$3,000 because they're going LS or something. Just gotta keep my eyes open for whatever may be out there. The 350 has good compression, and I don't forsee any problems on the horizon with it, maybe I could EFI it, then swap that system over to a new (to me) motor if I found one down the road?
Thoughts on any, or all, of this? Long thread I know, but I didn't want to clutter up every section of this forum starting part specific threads. New thread it the transmission section, new one in an engine section, interior, brakes, suspension, etc. Figured I'd consolidate it all into 1. lol
They originally bought the car for me back in 1996 when I was 13, from my 8th grade history teacher. for $1,700! Interior was in very good shape and all original, body needed quarters, doors, and fenders, but everything else was solid, and the motor was original and untouched. We tinkered around with it for a few years, but I became more interested in lowrider trucks by the time I got my license, so they kept the Firebird for themselves all these years. It's still mostly original though, they had the body work done about 10 years ago, new fenders, doors, quarters, inner quarters, and the color is C5 Corvette Millennium yellow, interior is still all original minus some A/M gauges, and the only thing the motor was taken apart for was a mild cam (not that the WHOLE motor was "taken apart", I just mean that other than a cam, everything inside is still untouched). Other than that, just bolt ons...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/01/20150115_131113_zpstbozesmd-1.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/josue309/media/1968%20Firebird/20150115_131113_zpstbozesmd.jpg.html)
It needed tires, so he bought a new set of Eagle II's along with these god awful trailer wheels for it. They were like $50/ea at the time. lol
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/01/20150115_131157_zpsph8hah1c-1.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/josue309/media/1968%20Firebird/20150115_131157_zpsph8hah1c.jpg.html)
Out with the old, in with the new! My first car was this '72 Nova, but the Firebird was in better shape, so we sold the Nova in favor of the Firebird.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/01/20150115_131226_zpsm2rgl6tz-1.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/josue309/media/1968%20Firebird/20150115_131226_zpsm2rgl6tz.jpg.html)
And today...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/01/20140718_190041_zpselqrntjo-1.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/josue309/media/1968%20Firebird/20140718_190041_zpselqrntjo.jpg.html)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/01/20140718_190108_zpsrwbzvctg-1.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/josue309/media/1968%20Firebird/20140718_190108_zpsrwbzvctg.jpg.html)
Now...here's my situation.
I'll be taking out a loan for this car come summertime. They're only selling it to me for $12,000, but I'm taking out the full appraised value, around $22,000-$25,000, so I'll have that much leftover for upgrades. My plans for the car are typical, do the most I can for the budget I have. I'd love to road race the car from time to time, but in reality, that won't happen for years and years, so for now it will just be a mild street build. The car will be a boarderline daily driver, seeing the road whenever it isn't raining, from the time the salt is off the roads, to the time the leaves stop falling.
From my research, I have some good ideas for upgraded suspension and brakes. I'm allowing $3,000 for suspension, and $2,000 brakes. And obviously, the less I spend on any 1 aspect of the car, the more I can spend on another. I'm looking at this suspension package...
http://scandc.com/new/node/984
Honestly, I'm kind of lazy. lol I'm not into scouring the interweb day and night, trying to find every piece and part needed for my DIY "kit". I'm willing to pay a little more for a complete, one stop shop kit...no muss, no fuss. The jury is still out on this kit though, just because there are so many others to choose from. Hotchkis' complete kit is around $1,800 I think, and DSE's is around $2,200. But their kit is front only, it'd be $3,000 for front and back. Ridetech is a great value for what you get, but I don't know if I want to drop $4,000 for a whole set of A-Arms (vs. just uppers in the SC&C package) coilovers, and a 4 link. I just think that might be overkill for my application?
Brakes - the car has manual drums on all 4 corners, so I'll need a total conversion there. Matt's Classic Bowties had this kit that peaked my interest...
http://www.mattsclassicbowties.com/contents/en-us/d2366.html
So, a little over $1,500 there, plus I'd replace the hardlines too, shipping, brake fluid, etc. So that's where my $2,000 figure for a conversion comes from. I suppose I could get away with one of those factory type setups from the parts catalogs, but I don't know how "performance" oriented they are? Again, not that I'm going to be tracking the car, but I'm still a spirited driver on the streets. lol Maybe I could just do some nice Hawk street pads or something like that with those kits? In which case those kits are around $1,000. Or, I've seen the threads with people piecing together 4th gen and C5 DIY kits for around $1,000 too, but again, I really don't like all the parts sourcing that needs done. It IS nice that the one thread exists that tells you exactly what to buy and where to find it though, so I'm still considering that as a viable option. Saving $500-$600 would be nice!
Wheels - I'd love the 18" Bandit honeycomb wheels from Year One, but spending $3,000+ on billet wheels is a good chunk of my budget!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/12/Banditwheels2_zpsaba542fc-1.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/josue309/media/1968%20Firebird/Banditwheels2_zpsaba542fc.jpg.html)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/12/Banditwheels_zps475a089e-1.jpeg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/josue309/media/1968%20Firebird/Banditwheels_zps475a089e.jpeg.html)
But, after seeing Quikbrd's '69 with cast 17" snowflakes that he had polished, I'm really liking this cheaper option! $800-ish for the wheels, then tires, mounting, etc. maybe $1,500 for everything?
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/01/image_zpsc7flnbkw-1.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/josue309/media/1968%20Firebird/image_zpsc7flnbkw.jpg.html)
I love the idea of staying with some Pontiac history with the wheel choice, and honestly, nothing else out there really peaks my interest.
Then there are some odds and ends I'd like to do. New, brighter headlights would be nice, for all the night time driving I'll be doing. I haven't looked into anything for these old cars like that though.
The steering I'd like addressed...I can't deal with the amount of SLOP these old cars have! A few options here it seems, DSE 600 steering gear, or a Lee box. Then there are whole, bolt in rack and pinion systems that weren't as expensive as I imagined them to be. My question here though, is what else "extra" would I need? I.E.- on DSE's website, they offer rag joints, adapters, fittings, this that and the other.....what all do I need to replace? Someone suggested a new PS pump too.
I'd like to do some solid body bushings, maybe get the SC&C bushing kit they offer to combat NVH. And, the other big item that is important to me is, seat belts. Given the amount of time I plan on being behind the wheel of this thing, I'd like a good set of 3 way belts, so around $600 there. I'll probably do the back seats too, I'll have a 3 and a 1 year old this summer, so I want to make sure I can correctly and safely install their car seats in the back.
I might have around $2,000 leftover to spend. The car has a basic 350 Pontiac. I seriously doubt it's ever been rebuilt, and again, the only thing new internally is a mild cam. My dad just wanted something that lopes, for sound. We put a Holley 650 on, an Edelbrock intake, Hooker headers, full 3" flowmaster dual exhaust with H pipe, and a aluminum radiator. We also put some kind of high performance water pump on it last summer, to try and combat an overheating issue my dad claimed it had. That was the reason for the new radiator too. Transmission is a 2sp powerglide.
It runs and drives, but barely gets out of its own way. lol I was thinking I'd like to address that powerglide, see if I could inexpensively swap in an OD transmission since I plan to drive the car a ton, but I don't know what works and what doesn't. 700R4, 4L60, 4L65E, 70/70E, 80/80E, lots of options it seems. New bell housing? How do you hook up the speedo? Should I get a stall converter? Any other electronics on these newer transmissions that need addressed? I'd love a manual swap, a TKO 500 or 600, but if I could get away with a nice OD auto for $1500 or less, then I'd be into that too. Or, I see all the time, people selling Muncie 4speed "kits" for around $1,000. I'd probably still need to buy a piece or 2, but that could be a cool swap. I already have a clutch pedal for it.
I'm really not sure what rear end is back there, other than whatever it came from the factory with. The gears are low I believe, and there's nothing wrong with the setup.
The only other driveability based item that I'd loved to tackle would be EFI. I know jack squat about carbs, and I'd love to be able to get in the car and go whenever I want, without worrying about chokes, pumping it up, cold weather starts, etc. I'd love an LS swap for this reason, but that's not in the cards obviously, and to be honest...I'm a little put off by the swap. As popular as they've become, again, still a LOT of parts sourcing to be done! Engine harness', headers, engine mounts, cooling, computers, gas pedals, front accy. drives...all kinds of WTF. Then with each part needed, there are literally dozens of suppliers to choose from...oy vey!
As much of a Firebird/Pontiac enthusiast as I'd consider myself though, I'm not THAT die hard about keeping this thing Pontiac powered. All 3 major Pontiac builders quoted me $7,000-$10,000 for a mildly built 400 that would get me in the 12's. I guess ideally I'd love a procharged, EFI Pontiac motor in this thing, but I'm not willing to spend 2-3 times what an LS swap would be. For now though, it's all about stretching the life out of this 350, or a nice situation would be to find someone selling a running 400 out of their project for $2,000-$3,000 because they're going LS or something. Just gotta keep my eyes open for whatever may be out there. The 350 has good compression, and I don't forsee any problems on the horizon with it, maybe I could EFI it, then swap that system over to a new (to me) motor if I found one down the road?
Thoughts on any, or all, of this? Long thread I know, but I didn't want to clutter up every section of this forum starting part specific threads. New thread it the transmission section, new one in an engine section, interior, brakes, suspension, etc. Figured I'd consolidate it all into 1. lol