First Gen F-Body, Stock subframe and UCA's

[JLMounce]

I'd sure love to go crazy on the front of my 1969 Firebird, but the money just isn't there to do that currently. Not without sacrificing a lot elsewhere on the car. I've been holding off saving for nice items, but in the mean time, the car sits and I'm just not enjoying it.

So I'm going to go as far as I can with the stock components for now. What is everyone's thoughts on utilizing a .5" tal ball join in the upper arm, in conjunction with the guldstrand mod? Am I going to run in to binding issues with this type of setup? Would it be best to just run the guldstrand mod alone?



The car currently has hotchkis leafs in the rear and I have hotchkis springs to go in the front.

Should I add a tall tie-rod to this mix?

I'm not looking to win any races, just have a car that isn't going to chew through tires if I take it out to the track, or run the back country roads.

[dhutton]

If I wanted an answer to that question I would ask Mark at SC&C. Be prepared for a long phone call....

Don

[DippedInSauce]

If I wanted an answer to that question I would ask Mark at SC&C. Be prepared for a long phone call....

Don

I whole heartedly agree with Don. Mark at SC&C has been an amazing resource for parts and is second to none when it comes to suspension knowledge and tech. He helped me get the most out of my stock subframe. Keep an eye on those Hotchkis rear springs. I had one completely snap in half while driving 35MPH uphill. They make a decent front spring but I'd stay as far away as possible from their rear's.

[JLMounce]

I whole heartedly agree with Don. Mark at SC&C has been an amazing resource for parts and is second to none when it comes to suspension knowledge and tech. He helped me get the most out of my stock subframe. Keep an eye on those Hotchkis rear springs. I had one completely snap in half while driving 35MPH uphill. They make a decent front spring but I'd stay as far away as possible from their rear's.

I may give him a call. I'm not in a position to even think about buying much for the car right now; the wife and I just built a house. As such I'm not so inclined to call up businesses and waste their time if I'm not a paying customer.

Considering the factory leafs in my car were snapped in half, I'd say at least at this time the hotchkis leafs should be an improvement!

This car will mainly be a driver. I don't run cars competitively and likely won't do an HPDE in the car but maybe once a season.

[David Pozzi]

I would get .5" tall upper ball joints, and tall tie rod ends. Buy tubular upper A arms so you can run more positive caster, around 5 degrees positive is a good start. Adding the Guldstrand mod in combination to tall ball joints will increase bumpsteer and unless you are prepared to fix that, you will have worse bump steer than stock. The loss in steering accuracy will not be worth the camber gains. I wouldn't go taller than the .5" UBJ's.

Currently, the Ride Tech Tru-Turn steering linkage with their tall spindles and A arms is the best package to fix Camber gain, and steering geometry and get the optimum caster alignment. They also move the steering arms away from the rim so you can run a wider rim than 8". If you can't afford the Ride Tech stuff, then do the .5" tall upper ball joints and tall tie rod ends with upper A arms that allow more caster. You can always set a little extra static camber to improve track performance.

The Speed Tech/ATS spindles and arms are another good solution.

[JLMounce]

Thanks for the input everyone! Unfortunately I can't do arms or spindles of any kind right now. Maybe in a year or so. For now I'll do the .5" tall UBJ along with a tall tie rod end. I can justify that along with the Hotchkis springs I already have.

I'll look at the true turn system later on.

[Rod]

What is everyone's thoughts on utilizing a .5" tal ball join in the upper arm, in conjunction with the guldstrand mod? Am I going to run in to binding issues with this type of setup? Would it be best to just run the guldstrand mod alone?

you will be OK with a .5 and the Guldstrand on stock arms...ran that on my own car for a few auto-crosses in testing (with the Hotchkis coil front and leaf rear) ride height is critical to low in the back and the car will push, to high in the back and it will over steer I used lowering blocks to tune the car to tracks, (start with a 1 inch block leave the u-bolts long to so you can slip different blocks in)

Should I add a tall tie-rod to this mix?

NO! some cars need it, some don't, my car was worse with the tall tie rod, (I had short z-28 steering arms)

I'm not looking to win any races

you wont unless your racing another camaro with stock arms, than your miles ahead of him with the gulstrand mod

just have a car that isn't going to chew through tires if I take it out to the track, or run the back country roads.

It will still chew tires, not enough castor and that comes from a good tube arm

Currently, the Ride Tech Tru-Turn steering linkage with their tall spindles and A arms is the best package to fix Camber gain, and steering geometry and get the optimum caster alignment. They also move the steering arms away from the rim so you can run a wider rim than 8". If you can't afford the Ride Tech stuff, then do the .5" tall upper ball joints and tall tie rod ends with upper A arms that allow more caster. You can always set a little extra static camber to improve track performance.

Thanks David!!

[JLMounce]

Thanks for the response Rod. I'm going to run just the tall ball joint with as much caster as I can get out of the OEM pieces for the time being. I need new ball joints anyway, so it's worthwhile to go that route at this point.

I'm leaning towards the True Turn system, but I certainly can't justify the cost of the true turn system, upper and lower mounts and coil-overs at this time. I'll have to piece meal that stuff together over time.

[Jimmy Sean]

Just a thought but if you're planning on the ridetech arms and tru-turn at a later date then don't do the Guldstrand mod as the upper arms don't work with the mod.

[JLMounce]

Just a thought but if you're planning on the ridetech arms and tru-turn at a later date then don't do the Guldstrand mod as the upper arms don't work with the mod.

Correct, I'm just going to do the ball joint at this time. I'll have as modern of an alignment as possible done on the car once it's back on the ground and enjoy it.

[Rod]

Just a thought but if you're planning on the ridetech arms and tru-turn at a later date then don't do the Guldstrand mod as the upper arms don't work with the mod.

whoa, whoa whoa ......not true the guldstrand mod will work with OUR ridetech arms and the tru-turn, that's the problem here guys, nothing is set in stone some cars can use the Guldstrand and some cant, simple, its a tuning aid, ride height, vehicle rake, spring rate, anti-squat, sway bar rate, tire width, rim offset, tire pressure, anti-dive, ALL play into tuning, My car Plain Jane uses the mod, our car 48 hours doesn't, it has 25 lbs lighter rear spring, a 315 rear tire, 18 rims, sits 1inch higher in the back, doesn't have engine bay bars, has more anti-dive and the rim offset has a different scrub radius than mine so with ALL that and a few differences in front to rear weight balance it doesn't need the guldstrand.....drilling 4 holes in the upper perch for the Guldstrand is just a small tuning aid

[JLMounce]

whoa, whoa whoa ......not true the guldstrand mod will work with OUR ridetech arms and the tru-turn, that's the problem here guys, nothing is set in stone some cars can use the Guldstrand and some cant, simple, its a tuning aid, ride height, vehicle rake, spring rate, anti-squat, sway bar rate, tire width, rim offset, tire pressure, anti-dive, ALL play into tuning, My car Plain Jane uses the mod, our car 48 hours doesn't, it has 25 lbs lighter rear spring, a 315 rear tire, 18 rims, sits 1inch higher in the back, doesn't have engine bay bars, has more anti-dive and the rim offset has a different scrub radius than mine so with ALL that and a few differences in front to rear weight balance it doesn't need the guldstrand.....drilling 4 holes in the upper perch for the Guldstrand is just a small tuning aid

I'm not looking to do anything competitive with the car. Just some HPDE events each season and a lot of cruising. So I'm not looking to shave 10th's, just have a competent driver that I can have a little fun with on occasion.

Since this thread is evolving a bit, maybe we can discuss scrub radius for my particular application, as well as the ridetech components. Right now the car has an MP brakes disc conversion on the front and Moser's economy discs in the back. My understanding of the front disc conversion is that it's modeled after the OE equipment used back in the late 60's early 70's. The front hub to hub width increased by 1.75" with this setup. For wheels I have to compensate by utilizing a front wheel that carried more backspacing than is typical for a 69 F body fitment.

What does this do to the scrub radius of the wheel/tire in that situation? Given my intention to simply have a bit of fun with the car and not to put it in a competitive environment, is this even really a concern? Especially considering that with 11" vented rotors at each corner, I'm not going to have enough material to soak up heat from repeated high speed stops etc.

The car will currently be setup with hotchkis' 3" drop leafs in the rear, factory arms with .5" tall UBJ's in the front and Hotchkis' 2" drop springs. The car currently has it's factory 11/16th's factory sway bar and no rear bar. ****ty tires on 15" wheels for now. I'll upgrade wheels when I do the rest of the suspension.

What I'd like to do a bit down the road when finances stabilize is go with the RideTech package up front to include the strong arms, HQ coil-overs and True Turn.

[Jimmy Sean]

whoa, whoa whoa ......not true the guldstrand mod will work with OUR ridetech arms and the tru-turn, that's the problem here guys, nothing is set in stone some cars can use the Guldstrand and some cant, simple, its a tuning aid, ride height, vehicle rake, spring rate, anti-squat, sway bar rate, tire width, rim offset, tire pressure, anti-dive, ALL play into tuning, My car Plain Jane uses the mod, our car 48 hours doesn't, it has 25 lbs lighter rear spring, a 315 rear tire, 18 rims, sits 1inch higher in the back, doesn't have engine bay bars, has more anti-dive and the rim offset has a different scrub radius than mine so with ALL that and a few differences in front to rear weight balance it doesn't need the guldstrand.....drilling 4 holes in the upper perch for the Guldstrand is just a small tuning aid

I sent an email to ridetech asking if using the tru turn and arms with the guldstrand mod was possible. Here is the response I got from Josh Gladish with Ridetech.

"Unfortunately, having the Guldstrand mod and our system, would cause too much negative camber. Everything needs to be mounted up in the factory locations for the best results. If you have any questions, you’re welcome to email me, or give me a call on my direct line."


That is why I posted my response. Thanks for the clarification. I have already done the G-mod but now wanted to use the products from Ridetech. I have another subframe, I could cut the un-modified stock control arm mounts off of it and replace the modified ones on my car. I'll try it out before replacing the mounts on my car.

Thanks,

[Rod]

I sent an email to ridetech asking if using the tru turn and arms with the guldstrand mod was possible. Here is the response I got from Josh Gladish with ridetech.

"Unfortunately, having the Guldstrand mod and our system, would cause too much negative camber. Everything needs to be mounted up in the factory locations for the best results. If you have any questions, you’re welcome to email me, or give me a call on my direct line."


That is why I posted my response. Thanks for the clarification. I have already done the G-mod but now wanted to use the products from Ridetech. I have another subframe, I could cut the un-modified stock control arm mounts off of it and replace the modified ones on my car. I'll try it out before replacing the mounts on my car.

Thanks,

First I will walk over to the Tech/sales department and SLAP Josh, and I say yes try it on the setup you have now, keep the G-mod and start with the castor slug provided it will be the centering plug or 4 degree step back both work GREAT with the guldstrand, you wont have to much negative camber and the curve is awesome for spirited driving