Cross Caster 1.75 Degrees...

[pitts64]

My 64 Pontiac needs at least 1.75 degrees more positive caster on the right side to keep from pulling right.. The sway bar link spacer is also a 1/2" smaller on the right.. I think I need the right side jacked up a little.. Would it be a good idea to use a spring spacer on the right spring only? I'd like to balance the caster a little closer...

Thank you...

[David Pozzi]

Check the rear axle for square, it may be steering left.

[pitts64]

Thank you for all your help...

[sixty9cutlass]

What's your cross camber? Have you cross rotated the front tires to eliminate a tire pull?

[pitts64]

It was the H rated Westlake tires, the belts were slipping... This had me chasing my tail.. I'd align it, it would drive like it was on rails, then the tire temp would change and it would hunt, dart and shake... I put new Firestone Destination LE-2 tires on and it's a different car....

[sixty9cutlass]

Very cool, glad you got it figured out. It seems like tires are more of a concern than alignments that are out if they are pulling that hard.

[pitts64]

Here is the alignment specs, the car still drifts right with a cross caster of 2.61... Dave, the rear end is good, I wanted to make sure before posting.. Should I shim the right front spring? When the right wheel is off the ground I can rattle the spring ever so slightly, I can't do that to the left..

I'm ready to have the whole clip cut off and start from scratch.. I love the car... The car sat in the desert for many years before being restored in 1980, I wonder if it sat with the left front wheel missing or flat for that time and twisted the frame..

102273

[sixty9cutlass]

Here is the alignment specs, the car still drifts right with a cross caster of 2.61... Dave, the rear end is good, I wanted to make sure before posting.. Should I shim the right front spring? When the right wheel is off the ground I can rattle the spring ever so slightly, I can't do that to the left..

I'm ready to have the whole clip cut off and start from scratch.. I love the car... The car sat in the desert for many years before being restored in 1980, I wonder if it sat with the left front wheel missing or flat for that time and twisted the frame..

https://www.pro-touring.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=102273&stc=1


I can't believe the car drifts right with that caster. usually it will pull to the side with the least amount of caster, which is the driver side in this case. Does this have shims in the upper control arm cross shafts?

[pitts64]

Yes it has shims, only in the rear bolt though.. Here are some photos of the upper and lower control arms... I have nylon bearings in the lowers with stock solid uppers... Here are some photos of the uppers and lowers...


102301 Passenger side upper..

102302 Drivers side upper..

102303 Passenger side lower..

102304 Drivers side lower..

102305

[cdrod]

pitts64:
Sorry to hi-jack your thread, but I'm dying to know what are the 3 bolts across the lower control arm?

Rodney

102326

[pitts64]

cdrod, Those bolts hold the reinforcing bars in place...You have to make everything for this car... I got the idea from the Fireball Roberts, 62 Catalina, Smokey Yunick built...

[cdrod]

Thanks for the quick reply. Are the reinforcing bars a factory installed item or is this an aftermarket addition? I'm more of an A-body guy don't know much about F-bodies, but I've never seen this on an A-body car. Is this a common thing with F-bodies? Is the strength improvement worth the extra unsprung weight added to the control arm?

[pitts64]

I made these out of heavy wall pipe before I changed to solid style nylon lower control arm bushings.. The rubber lower control bushings were the issue, I don't think these bars actually do much and may take them off...

This car is a B body, 1964 Bonneville. I'd stick with the A bodys, they make everything for them and they are front steer.. A local wants to trade me a nice 69 Buick Special two door post, I'd be taking a hit money wise but I'd be starting with a good foundation and it all ready has a 12 bolt. I really want an El Camino though...

[cdrod]

Sorry about the F-body comment, I read Pontiac and assumed Firebird. I've seen guys weld plate steel to the bottom of the stock LCAs around the ball joint for more strength. That seems to be where they break when they fail. In my build I'm using the stock LCA with SPC adjustable uppers, stock spindles and tall ball joints, but I'm wondering if it's smart to run modern low profile tires with 40-year old stamped steel LCAs. I just didn't want to mess with all the spring pocket spacers, or coil-opver conversions that come with the tubular LCAs. Here's a couple pics of my front suspension.

Rodney


102374

102375

[pitts64]

That looks nice.. I would,nt worry about the lowers, I've been throwing my 4000 lb car around on mine for 10 years, the KRC bushings made a big difference..

I'll never own another rear steer car again, your ahead of the game with your front steer... I may be trading my 64 Pontiac on a 65 El Camino, I hope it turns out to be a good deal..

[pitts64]

Interesting, yesterday I set the alignment to factory specs, 1.5 negative caster both sides, 0 camber, slight toe in and the car drove perfectly straight with a slight drift to the left. The wheel return wasn't there and the steering was feathery and light...
When I set it up for positive caster, I need at least 2 degrees more positive on the right side.. Right now it's 6.5 right 4.5 left and it handles and rides just fine.. I noticed the upper control arm attachment towers are not even, the right is a little more towards positive caster.. The positive caster is in every way superior to the stock negative caster setting. It's just weird why I need 2 degrees on the right to keep the car straight..

I think it's time for some adjustable uppers. I'm thinking the severe angle of the uppers with no shims in the front bolts may have something to do with it..

Does anybody sell adjustable uppers with the dimensions printed out, so I can make sure they will fit... My stock uppers look a lot like first generation Firebird/Camaro uppers..

[cdrod]

Pitts64:
The adjustable arms on my car are made by SPC and they're kinda spendy. I don't think SPC listed anything for a '64 Bonneville; however the arms are made from individual pieces, I'll bet you could mix and match components to get something to fit your car. I suggest you call Marc at SC&C to see if he can assemble something for your car. Here's a pic and a link.

103173

http://www.scandc.com/

[pitts64]

Thanks Cdrod...

[MonzaRacer]

UHMMMM, I wonder what machine they used and all as those numbers for the rear SUCK. You have an 1/8" toe on the left rear.
Work on evening up those rear toe numbers, get them more EVEN.
Because the right has less toe in the the rear is gonna push the car into a left turn, biggest issue is the back fights the front. I would also try to get the camber evened up a little better as more positive left camber makes a car pull left. I tend to use caster only to dial in road crown climb.
If your autocrossing crank in some toe OUT too make car turn in.
I'm also curious as to what the SAI and Included angle numbers are. These would give indicators as to suspension/frame health. If they dont have specs, they can sub in a phantom number, then after caster swing see just how far off the numbers are and adjust the "phantom specs" till you get near a zero number, as in how close to same number are both sides.
See my shops Hunter machine has a feature called adjust too zero, hit that and it gives me all readings in how far from ZERO or preferred spec. everything is.
Using this lets me check for bends, twists, factory f__k ups in welding up frame. and how to dial things in better.
I have older car spec book somewhere, If I get a chance Ill see if I can dig it up and post up all the specs I have, might be more than you have.

[David Pozzi]

Try swapping tires left to right. Just to eliminate them from causing it.
I'd also try shimming the spring to even up the load. I'd also try driving it with one sway bar end link disconnected.

[pitts64]

Thanks!

[pitts64]

Since my car goes positive camber during compression, wouldn't adding more positive caster on the right make it sensitive to pull right because of positive camber..

It's a weird kind of pull, it only pulls when the road dips down on the right side.. I'm also wondering if I need more static negative camber on the right..

I have both sides of my camber set at around -25. to -.30.. With 1.30 degrees more positive caster on the right.. I'm somewhere close to +6.30 right +5 left..

When my car is on the skid plates and I turn the wheel to the right it keeps spinning back to center because of all the extra caster on that side, I have a Lee 12 to 1 steering box..

Thank you for all your help so far.. All in all this old 64 Bonneville handles very well...

[MonzaRacer]

Wait, so your doing your own Alignment? Don't you know after compensation, when doing caster swings, adjustments you should have the brakes locked while measuring and adjusting.
If not your not going to be getting proper readings.

From what your saying you have issues on suspension compression, which may mean your getting some odd bumpsteer issues.

[pitts64]

I tried checking toe with a person in the drivers seat and that made a big difference. The drivers side toes in and extra 1/2" with a body in the car.. So I slightly toed out the drivers side and it's so much better now..

I cut one coil off the front springs and it's a 1/2" lower then factory ride height, it was way too high before the cut. I'm thinking on compressing and turning the coil springs in the spring pockets and installing a lock bolt in the bottom control arm to bring the ride height back up a 1/2"..

Here is a video at 130.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZihzBMaKxg

[ford396]

Fix your bump steer. I would not want to see any more than maybe .040" of toe change in 3" of suspension travel. If you are in fact changing 1/2" just by placing someone in the car, there is no way this will drive good.

Bob