SR20 swap?

[Billett]

Need your opinions on a swap I'm considering. I've got a 1961 Falcon with the original 144ci I6 engine and 2 speed Ford-o-matic trans. I want it to be a fairly reliable DD capable of some autocrossing once in a while. I'd like to stay EFI for reliability/ease of tuning and hopefully keep the mileage around 30mpg which shouldn't be too hard since the car is sub 3000 lbs stock.

I've considered a Ford 302, but it just seems too garden variety. Modular motor would be fun, but would involve a lot of cutting with the strut towers which I'm ok with, but the parts and labor involved in upgrading a modular is a bit more than I'm interested in. I'm a huge fan of LS engines, (swapped one in my 68 C10), but I want to do something a bit more interesting than ANOTHER ls swap in this car.

Which leads me to the sr20. My older brother has a monster sr20 in his 240sx daily driver and definitely has enough spare parts for me to throw together a reasonable one in this car. It's light, it's turbocharged, EFI, cheap, great on gas, and still powerful. Pretty much everything I'm looking for at this point.

My question to you guys is: Is this dumb? Is the sr20 worth the time and effort to fabricate mounts and get it put in this car or would you recommend something else?

[ADiCarlo]

Need your opinions on a swap I'm considering. I've got a 1961 Falcon with the original 144ci I6 engine and 2 speed Ford-o-matic trans. I want it to be a fairly reliable DD capable of some autocrossing once in a while. I'd like to stay EFI for reliability/ease of tuning and hopefully keep the mileage around 30mpg which shouldn't be too hard since the car is sub 3000 lbs stock.

I've considered a Ford 302, but it just seems too garden variety. Modular motor would be fun, but would involve a lot of cutting with the strut towers which I'm ok with, but the parts and labor involved in upgrading a modular is a bit more than I'm interested in. I'm a huge fan of LS engines, (swapped one in my 68 C10), but I want to do something a bit more interesting than ANOTHER ls swap in this car.

Which leads me to the sr20. My older brother has a monster sr20 in his 240sx daily driver and definitely has enough spare parts for me to throw together a reasonable one in this car. It's light, it's turbocharged, EFI, cheap, great on gas, and still powerful. Pretty much everything I'm looking for at this point.

My question to you guys is: Is this dumb? Is the sr20 worth the time and effort to fabricate mounts and get it put in this car or would you recommend something else?

I had an SR20 in my 240sx which was my project before my camaro and my buddy still has one in his drift car now. Honestly, the litre size of the SR makes it's incredible turbo dependent to get its power and I personally hated that. The motor is great if you can keep it in the the 3-4k+ rev band but the torque below that is not enough. You'd have to find a nice balance between turbo size and bumping up the injector/maf size to get it to work right.


Comically the falcon is lighter that a 240sx by about 200 lbs - 2600 for full body 240sx and 2400 for the falcon.

From your sig it sounds like you have a black top notchback.

Where are you located. This sounds fun.

[ace_xp2]

What about the 3rz toyota motor? It's an iron block, but a proven power maker and comes in at 2.7l displacement to help with that low end torque.
The vortec 2900 comes aluminum, but there doesn't seem to be much (indeed any that I found via quick search) aftermarket for it. So with 185hp before boost you might find yourself limited to say double that or less if it proves weak.

[no go nova]

I vote sr20. You can put lower gears in the rear axle to spice up low speeds cruising performance. Its light a great aftermarket for it and you be the only one around.

[jwcarguy]

Let me know if your are in the market for a SR20DET engine

I have a buddy that is going to sell a bad ass one , with aftermarket turbo, intercooler, standalone harness / pcm ,etc, that I personally removed from a another friend's sand rail here in Las Vegas

He is only going to sell it, since he won't be fishing his project

[andrewb70]

Since the car was originally i6, it would be cool to g with something like a RB25DET...I saw one on the dyno that was stock, but had a newer GT28 turbo and it made 350rwhp and spooled up instantly. Just more food for thought.

Andrew

[Motorcitydak]

Also look into chevy's 4cyl that the put in that solstice, they do very well boosted but if you basically have a motor and someone who knows them well, I would go that route

[olason]

The SR20 would be a cheaper option for a 4 cylinder.

The solstice engine to get would be the 2.0L ecotec, which was also in the cobalt ss.

Being ford, would there be any chance of an ecoboost.

All in all, the SR20 is probably the cheaper engine option to run.

[Billett]

Honestly, the litre size of the SR makes it's incredible turbo dependent to get its power and I personally hated that. The motor is great if you can keep it in the the 3-4k+ rev band but the torque below that is not enough. You'd have to find a nice balance between turbo size and bumping up the injector/maf size to get it to work right.

Comically the falcon is lighter that a 240sx by about 200 lbs - 2600 for full body 240sx and 2400 for the falcon.

From your sig it sounds like you have a black top notchback.

Where are you located. This sounds fun.

Yeah I know its only 2.0L, but what would probably happen is I'd use the GT28 that was on my brother's sr20 and he'd buy something better. I know the GT28 isn't as powerful as some of the other turbos but his car spools so fast it more than makes up for it. I didn't know the falcon weighed less than a 240 though , that's fantastic. Mine might be a little more since it's 4-door. I haven't compared the curb weight. I'm out in the "deep south" of NJ, in Elmer. Closest landmark you might recognize is NJMP about 15-20 mins away.

At the moment we're missing a block and crankshaft, but have just about everything else for the swap. Here's a pic of my brother's engine to keep you interested. Its actually had a bit more work done since this too.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/04/IMG_20130605_062835_867_zps9103f82a-1.jpg (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/was35/media/Matts%20240sx/IMG_20130605_062835_867_zps9103f82a.jpg.html)


What about the 3rz toyota motor? It's an iron block, but a proven power maker and comes in at 2.7l displacement to help with that low end torque.
The vortec 2900 comes aluminum, but there doesn't seem to be much (indeed any that I found via quick search) aftermarket for it. So with 185hp before boost you might find yourself limited to say double that or less if it proves weak.

I honestly know absolutely nothing about that toyota engine and I'd much rather do an LS than vortec. The 4.3 crossed my mind, but I have an unreasonable aversion to v6s.


I vote sr20. You can put lower gears in the rear axle to spice up low speeds cruising performance. Its light a great aftermarket for it and you be the only one around.

I'm definitely hoping to be the only one around. A quick search didn't come up with anyone else doing it, so I'm all about it. If I change out the stock rear to an 8.8 explorer the gearing would stay about the same stock, but it opens up way more possibilities.


Let me know if your are in the market for a SR20DET engine

I have a buddy that is going to sell a bad ass one , with aftermarket turbo, intercooler, standalone harness / pcm ,etc, that I personally removed from a another friend's sand rail here in Las Vegas

He is only going to sell it, since he won't be fishing his project

Depends on the price really. sr20s are pretty easy to find and we have most of the parts, but I'm always ready for a good deal. I know we'll need a block and crank as mentioned above, but I'd be open to talk about it. One thing I'm definitely planning on getting is PowerFC, so if that's the standalone he has then I'm all over it.


Since the car was originally i6, it would be cool to g with something like a RB25DET...I saw one on the dyno that was stock, but had a newer GT28 turbo and it made 350rwhp and spooled up instantly. Just more food for thought.

Andrew

An RB was also in the running when I was first trying to sort this out and I had it on there for the same reasons, I6 and easy power, but around me they are quite a bit more expensive than the sr20's so it didn't seem worth it. I always keep a look out for cheap engines on CL, (we just picked up a 4.6L Ford aluminum DOHC yesterday), so if I come across one at a good price I'll probably end up doing it.


Also look into chevy's 4cyl that the put in that solstice, they do very well boosted but if you basically have a motor and someone who knows them well, I would go that route

The ecotechs are pretty great engines, but still pricey. We actually have a pair of sub-1000 mile engines in the garage from two Aveo/Sonics. They were flood cars and we ended up with the engines somehow. Thought about using one, but they are a bit down on power for what I wanted. I suppose we could turbo one, but I imagine it would still be simpler to use the sr.


The SR20 would be a cheaper option for a 4 cylinder.

The solstice engine to get would be the 2.0L ecotec, which was also in the cobalt ss.

Being ford, would there be any chance of an ecoboost.

All in all, the SR20 is probably the cheaper engine option to run.

Thought about an ecoboost, but from what I've read the Ford engines are a bit more of a pain to unlock and tune, and once again they're a bit more expensive.

I realize it's laughable that I'm trying to pinch pennies on the powerplant when the suspension change between the explorer rear and mustang II parts will be much more involved and expensive than an ecotec or RB style engine, but at this point I think I'm really just sold on the idea of an SR-powered Falcon. It's completely ridiculous, but would work perfectly in every way I need it to.

Not to mention I usually get laughed off the boards with some of the things I've come up with, but the positive feedback is making me feel pretty good about this particular project. I'll start amassing some parts for the build first. No need to rip the engine out just yet since it still starts up and runs really well, but I can patch the body and floors and get a decent interior in there until I've got everything I need.

Here's some pics of the old bird. Project Falcon Punch.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/04/IMG_3084_zpsdb4a50bf-1.jpg (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/was35/media/Falcon/IMG_3084_zpsdb4a50bf.jpg.html)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/04/IMG_3085_zpse93ba302-1.jpg (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/was35/media/Falcon/IMG_3085_zpse93ba302.jpg.html)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/04/IMG_3075_zps6260895e-1.jpg (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/was35/media/Falcon/IMG_3075_zps6260895e.jpg.html)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/04/IMG_3092_zpse2b88d36-1.jpg (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/was35/media/Falcon/IMG_3092_zpse2b88d36.jpg.html)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/04/IMG_3086_zpsb7d5dd2d-1.jpg (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/was35/media/Falcon/IMG_3086_zpsb7d5dd2d.jpg.html)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/04/IMG_3087_zpsd091b86b-1.jpg (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/was35/media/Falcon/IMG_3087_zpsd091b86b.jpg.html)

[ADiCarlo]

THAT LOOKS LIKE MY OLD MOTOR lol! Koyorad, front mount, HKS blow off valve, blue hosing. Only thing I didn't have was the mazworx intake but I did have a tubular exhaust manifold for better spool.

I also had the S15 ball bearing T28 on my 2.0 red top and it wouldn't spool quick enough with stock injector and MAF. I see your already looking for a power FC which is good but also get a z32 maf and better injectors.

Let me know when you make mounts - I may want to but a set off you lol

[Billett]

Here's a more recent pic. I also just finished machining a pair of spacers to sit on top of the shock mounts so that his strut tower bar will fit clear the taller valve cover.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/04/IMG_2720_zpsc6c38171-1.jpg (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/was35/media/Matts%20240sx/IMG_2720_zpsc6c38171.jpg.html)

Did you do a VVL swap also? Once that thing hits 4k it kicks HARD.

[Sales-TCI-Eng]

If you've already got a bunch of parts for the SR I say go for it. Take a look at the billet wheel Garrett makes with the 71R dsignation. I've seen compressor maps showing north of 55lbs min of flow (500+ HP). Although I wouldn't go with a 28 hot side, I'd go with a 30.

-J

[Billett]

I'll definitely look into it. I've already been coveting the suspension setups you guys make. Don't have cash right now, but I'd love to run the IFS and 4-link you sell.

[Sales-TCI-Eng]

The 3071R is one bad mofo for mid range and transient response plus with the billet wheel option flows a ton of air. Bump the compression to 11.0:1 and run E85 and it will make boost faster than the tires will be able to contain.


The sump location will cause some problems with a front mounted rack but nothing a new oil pan can't solve. You'll need the shock towers gone to be able to install a big SMIM and top mount turbo of T3 frame size. The good thing is the engine is short so there won't be much overhang out front. Plus, there is a bunch of room to hide a big FMIC up there just get rid of the stock hood latch. Oh yeah, bonus points for routing the gate out the fender, hood, or bottom of car.

-J

[Billett]

Don't look at this the wrong way, the pic in the previous post was just for show. He spent a few years putting that all together and spent way more than I would have/want to. It's capable of far more power than it puts out but he likes it to spool fast and hard so that's why it still has the bottom mount relatively small turbo. It started off as a DD also, but now it's a bit tough to handle in certain weather.

I really am trying to keep this a budget DD car. E85 is definitely out of the question because there just isn't anyone that sells it out here in South Jersey. Haven't really decided on top vs bottom mount turbo. I really need to look into some other builds first and see how some of the falcon guys ran the piping. At the moment though I'm not looking for crazy power, just enough to have fun so I think shooting for 300rwhp is pretty reasonable. I'd rather build it up a bit to run that much power reliably than be at the limits of cheap parts trying to squeeze out power. I've got a 6.0 LS for power, this is for driving.

Plans for this engine at the moment with some basic research and off the top of my head:

FMIC
Injectors - 550-650cc?
PowerFC
Walbro pump
Cobra/Z32 MAF
Cams/springs - optional

As far as the turbo, I do have a bit of a thing for the GT28RS but I realize it just might not be for this application compared to some of the other options out there. If I can find one cheap I might go for it, but if not I'll do some more looking around. I'm just going to try to mix and match some setups here til I can find a reliable 300whp I like. Suggestions are definitely welcome. Piping is all going to have to be fabbed anyway so throw out whatever you've got! I'm really an LSx guy at heart and not super familiar with the sr20s.


On another note I might not have to cut the hood latch either.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

There are actually a few turbo builds on the tffn site, but I can't start a thread over there because the site owner doesn't like non-ford engines in his cars...

[Sales-TCI-Eng]

That FMIC looks right at home sitting in there. It certainly looks plenty big enough for your power goals. Try to stay away from cheap ebay cores as they typically don't have enough fins internally to keep the charge air cool run after run. They can be fine for drag racing but for autocross or road racing, not so much.

The Garrett turbos get expensive fast, especially the ball bearing billet set-ups. Another option is a billet 20G with a TDODSL2 turbine wheel. I had one built by a local shop for right around $500. They used the ported compressor housing which sounds heavenly on boost. It makes roughly 15 psi by 3800 rpm in 3rd gear mounted on a stock 6 bolt 4G63 (7.8:1 compression). Boost response at 4500rpm or higher is immediate. I'd honestly give up a little spool to have it pull harder up top because by 7K it's laying over.

550 injectors will be plenty for 300whp on pump gas but if you can source 650's for cheap enough you may as well. I just sold a set of Bosch 660's for $100 so there are deals out there. In your case I wouldn't worry about valve train or cams unless the SR has a notorious weak spot.

Don't mean to go off on tangents unrelated to where I work but I have always been a big fan of turbos, especially on small displacent engines.


-J

[Billett]

Not unrelated to this thread so it doesn't bother me. Turbos are the weak spot of my knowledge. I try to read up on everything I can and I've got a decent book about turbos and tuning them, but it never compares to the real thing.

[cornfedbill]

When I lived in Tokyo I saw a lot of Silvias. They are quite popular there with the younger crowd.

The SR20 is not a bad motor and is economical. I still would lean towards a Ford Ecoboost 2.0L because this is s Ford body.

The GM LNF 2.0L from the Solstice makes more power. I am a bit partial because I worked on the fuel injection system on the LNF.

[Motorcitydak]

I say do the SR, no real good reason not to since you have it available. I am looking forward to the build thread!

[ADiCarlo]

Here's a more recent pic. I also just finished machining a pair of spacers to sit on top of the shock mounts so that his strut tower bar will fit clear the taller valve cover.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/04/IMG_2720_zpsc6c38171-1.jpg (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/was35/media/Matts%20240sx/IMG_2720_zpsc6c38171.jpg.html)

Did you do a VVL swap also? Once that thing hits 4k it kicks HARD.

Didn't have a VVL just a basic red top. I was coming off a run of cars with V8's and high compression 6 cylinders and 6 cylinder turbos so the 2.0 felt real tiny. lol.

First thing I would do would be to pull the motor out of the falcon and get the SR20 long block with trans hanging in the bay and see where you do and don't have room. This will determine what kind of turbo manifold you can run.

I think the easiest route may be trying to bolt up the SR20 crossmember to the falcon rails. This is the common way they get SR's and F20c's in AE86's which may have the similar space constraints.

[Nothingface5384]

You could stick with ford and dropin a turbo 2.3
or new ecoboost
or a gran national engine..then you'd have a Buford lol

[MonzaRacer]

I could see a 300-6 fi , maybe turbo it, OR a 2.3l turbo with intercooler. Both work great.

[Billett]

300 I6 is too big. They're heavier than a stock 302. That alone wouldn't bother me because I like the feel of the I6s, tons of torque, but it's also just dimensionally huge. Way too much work to try to fit into a 61 engine bay. I'd have a ton of trouble with cooling and hood clearance. 2.3L would work just as well as an sr20, but I've already got the sr20 and no one has done it before, to my knowledge.

[Billett]

Bringing this back to life. This has been in the back of my head for a while and I really wish I had some more spare change right now. I've been trying to figure out what I wanted to do suspension-wise with this car. For the front, I could keep the stock parts, do a shelby drop, and get roller spring perches. This could work, but then I'd have to keep the shock towers and I'd still have shocks and springs and drum brakes. Looking at the pics below I think I could make it work with the shock towers, but do I want to have to worry about squeezing an engine in? A mustang II kit would open the bay up significantly, give me discs, power r&p, etc but I keep hearing the stock suspension with some modifications is actually a better setup. For the rear I could keep the leaf springs or go with a 4 link. I know leaf spring setups can work, but I think a 4-link will give me more versatility. From what I understand a leaf setup is either designed for drag racing or road racing and the two setups don't work well out of their respective fields.

All this leads me to think that it may be $$$ up front, but in the long run I get a well rounded setup going with the MII and 4-link kit from TCI. Might not be the BEST setup in the world, but it will do everything I need it to and give me plenty of room to play with the engine bay. Should be about $5k plus finding and narrowing an 8.8 rear. I'm leaning towards TCI because of the way their engine mounts are designed. The R&C setup looks beefier (to my untrained layman eye), but the TCI will allow me to create some stands that will work better and sit lower since this will be an odd engine.

Nissan Engine bay with top mount turbo
109440

Falcon Engine bay with stock I6
109441

Falcon engine bay with MII kit
109442

As far as the rest of the build goes I'm going to try to keep it as close to $10k as I can for starters. My brother's sr20 has the VE head swap, but that's out of my league for now. I'm still along the same track I was before, FMIC, 550-650 injectors, PowerFC, etc. I did look into the 3071R turbo and it looks pretty fantastic on a top mount setup and since I'll have more room in the engine bay that shouldn't be a problem at all. I might get a set of S3 cams just to bump the power a little bit more, but all in all I think this is actually going to be a pretty nice setup.

Interior will probably be pretty spartan. Sheet metal door panels, manual cranks, possibly a cage. I've been considering picking up a 3D printer for some random projects and the gauge setup on this car would be one. I could make it fit the original position, but have holes for aftermarket electronic gauges... Heck I could even fit a spot in the dash for the HUD the 240s use haha.

[CamaroMike]

An sr20 with a gtx turbo would be perfect for that car. Or drop in a stock rb26

[ace_xp2]

There was a pretty big thread on vintage mustang forum wherein TCI was good enough to post another thread with some specs on the suspension, It's been awhile since I reviewed it but I think I recall that the end result was geometrically better than the stock equipment, though not necessarily ideal.
http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/total-cost-involved-engineering/648628-tci-engineerings-custom-ifs.html
I'd really consider going to a three link or a torque arm if they're available from anyone, I'm not sure how similar the rear in that is to the Mustang, I seem to recall the front being well nigh identical.

Since I last posted up here I've come across one more set of motors that may work well for you. BMW sixes, there's a collection of them from 2.5 to 3.5 liters all easily available in junkyards with manuals hanging off of them ready and willing to put 500+hp to the ground with just the addition of a snail and sufficient fuel. Just one to add to the list.

[Billett]

Gtx is more than this needs. Actually the 3071 is probably more than it needs. I might use my brothers bottom mount setup with a 2871r and he can get a top mount.

Thanks for the link. Compared to the Mustang they are very close, but just different enough to cause problems.

The reason I was going 4 link is because that's what TCI makes also, so I can get them as a package.

I do like the BMW engines a lot, so much that I almost bought one for my new DD but ended up with a miata instead. I think at this point I'm set on the sr20, but I have been rolling around the idea of a matched set of oddballs and running a BMW or rb25/6 in a Nova. Same big engine bay, same light weight, same simplicity and available parts. Gonna make this one work first and go from there. Our next project coming up besides this Falcon is an early 60s f100 prerunner with the modular 4.6.

Even if our cars aren't the best performing we want them to draw a crowd. I love LS engines and have one in my C10, but they're so common now it doesn't get much excitement. Tuner engine in a muscle car sounds very "Tokyo drift" but honestly I think it'll work fantastic.

[Jeff0547]

I also have a '61 Falcon. Mine's a 4-door wagon and I have had sick thoughts like you have. The Ford I-6 170 is so boring and it's 60s technology. So, it's been 3½ years since you posted on this. What happened???? Are ya still driving the Falcon with the 170? :dunno: Just curious

[andrewb70]

How about a Barra 4.0L I6 from Australia?

Andrew