Speedway Illustrated article: Hauling Nightmares

[David Pozzi]

There is a Current Speedway Illustrated issue with "HAULING NIGHTMARES" on the cover. I speaks about racers getting tickets and fines for being "commercial haulers" and even fines for improperly transporting fuel.

This article pertains mainly to rigs above what we tow, but I've heard from some friends who had racing "team" logos on their autocross trailers and got stopped by police and asked a lot of questions. They were trying to place them in the catagory of commercial ventures "for profit" racing that would be required to keep log books of their driving hours, stop at all weigh stations, pay fees, etc.
Has anyone run into this with their hobby trailer?
94534
I couldn't find a link to the article, but here is a quote from a newsletter that goes into it a little:


On a more sobering thought, I just read an article in Speedway Illustrated; "Towing the Line.......Hauling
Nightmares........Big fines for Racers. I strenuously encourage you to read this article. It is short, but very

sobering on how our fellow racers are getting fined thousands of dollars for things that they were totally unaware of.

Weight is a big one issue.

If your towing rig is over ten thousand pounds gross, your trailer and contents are over 10,000 lbs gross, or if both towing rig and trailer are 26001lbs, you need a CDL license and all the fun that comes with that. You must maintain a medical card in the vehicle, be subject to random drug testing, maintain a log, pay higher insurance rates, and follow other often expensive requirements.

You'll really love the part about towing with hazardous materials or "hazmat".

The Cliff note version is that you cannot have more than 50 gal of fuel in the trailer and none of that can be in a non-DOT container.

Fuel cells are not DOT approved, and as they are expensive enough, the cell manufactures have not gone to the

expense of DOT certification. There are some exemptions, but unless you’re like Lord Hesketh who put

James Hunt out in a pure white car, you may be guilty of "furtherance of a commercial enterprise." So no exemption for you.

Cops have learned to stake out speedways and have had a field day pulling racers over.

[SShep71]

Ignorance is never an excuse. The "Well I didn't know" should never cut it. If you want to pull a trailer you should know what your state requires of you. I had to learn the hard way pulling a trailer in California that there are some goofy rules, I wound up with a fine but I did get a small break.

[David Pozzi]

I had a friend who was returning to California after running his Camaro at the SCCA national autocross event. 80 odd miles into Wyoming, he gets stopped because his safety chain is scraping & making sparks. His Camaro is towing a small uhaul type enclosed trailer containing some new race tires he picked up from the tire truck at nationals. He sells magnetic numbers to Autocrossers & had his business name on the side of the trailer. The officer made him go back to the border & pay an exise tax on the tires he was transporting through the state. All because he was a "business". I think there were other issues, something about if he or his sponsor, Yokohama owned the tires, but it happened long ago. My point is, there are a lot of people hauling stuff for hire with hobby sized enclosed trailers & the police are trying to make them pay. We could get caught in the middle of this just by having a bunch of decals on our trailers. Or answering questions wrong.

At the vintage races I see huge 18 wheel rigs that are licensed as RV's & the drivers are saying they don't get paid to drive the rig, they do it for free, but they do get paid to work on the cars. This has been getting them by for now. Some are over length & there are issues with them entering California.

The article mentioned a guy who said the IRS wouldn't let him write off his racing as a Business, but the police said he was commercial because he competed for prize money, so they fined him for not complying with commercial hauling regulations.

[Damn True]

Not the exact same thing but I know a few folks that have been dinged for having rigs that were too long. I don't know what the regs are but I guess that over a certain length you have to have a CDL. Plenty of "toter-homes" and bigger 5th wheel boxes are FAR longer than Aunt Maude and Uncle Ned's RV.

[SSLance]

We just had this exact discussion on our local SCCA board. I called a MO highway patrol friend and had the MO laws regarding commercial vehicles explained to me. Keep in mind that every State can and might be different. All of this applies to combined vehicle weights under 26k btw, over 26k is a whole nuther ball game.

Say I take my truck and my trailer and haul a friend's broken car home with it as a favor, not a commercial vehicle.

Say my friend pays me $25 to haul his car home...commercial vehicle (all State DOT rules apply).

Anytime you use a vehicle to earn money in anyway shape or form, it's a commercial vehicle and all rules apply.

I asked about stickers promoting racing, sponsors or whatever, "Not for Hire" blah blah blah... Stickers mean nothing, either way. The actual intent and use of the vehicle is what determines whether is it a commercial vehicle or not. Putting "Not for Hire" on the side of a tow vehicle does not preclude one from being deemed a commercial vehicle.

Hauling your personal race car with your personal tow vehicle to compete in a personal race is personal use. If you have a race team (separate company) that owns any part of the vehicle or items being transported, then it's a commercial vehicle.

In David's example above, the transportation of the magnetic numbers for sale absolutely deems the whole vehicle a commercial vehicle.

Our main discussion revolved around the SCCA van used to pull the SCCA timing trailer to and from events. It got muddy because the SCCA is a non-profit organization. Yes, pulling the trailer to the site in essence creates income as it allows the event to run and make entry fees, but because the owner is a registered non-profit organization that can't make money...it's a little more murky. I'll find out today what the final determination was as our van actually made a trip to the MO highway patrol office for clear determination.

Great discussion though, I know several people that have been popped for DOT violations (mainly small business related, not race related) and generally it gets very expensive, very quickly...especially if it happens across State lines. There are lessons to be learned here for everyone.

[SSLance]

According to the senior Federal CVE (commercial vehicle enforcement) agent in Jefferson City, the SCCA van is not considered a commercial vehicle mostly because it did not fit the criteria of a commercial enterprise. We DO have to remove the "ads" on the rear of the trailer though. However, the van needs to be retagged to 18,000 pounds and drivers must have a Class E endorsement. Federal ICC and DOT rules and laws apply to interstate use and states laws apply to state registered vehicles/rigs.

IMHO the definition of "commercial enterprise" is pretty grey and I could see a State Patrolman with a bug up his rear being a stickler on this.

It's best for everyone to know their own State laws though and if ever stopped and questioned, be prepared to answer the questions correctly the first time through to prevent further hassle and possible fines.

[Ron Sutton]

In California, you do not need a class A or B license if the motorhome is under 40' and with trailer, the combined length is under 65'. When I had my multiple race teams, one of our vehicles was a motorcoach (39' 6") and a custom built stacker trailer (24' 6"). This combo was 64' ... so legal to drive with a regular license.

Or so I thought. :hand:

A CHP officer walked up to the coach when the guys were stopped at a truck stop for diesel fuel and walked around it. He found my driver Sal and asked if he had Class A license? Well ... "no ... why would we need one?" Turns out the trailer was "rated" at 15,000 GVW and if it is rated at 10,000 or above, you need a class A license. It didn't matter what the trailer weighed ... just what it was rated at. :confused:

So 120 miles from home (Sacramento) ... on the way to a race in Las Vegas ... carrying 2 race cars, supplies & crew members ... the CHP officer informs my driver the coach & trailer can not move without a driver with a class A license. :help:

Sal called me ... and only thanks to my deep network of Class A rig drivers on speed dial ... was I able to have a class A licensed rig driver there in an hour and a half to keep the rig & crew rolling to their destination.

After the race weekend, I called my long time buddy Victor at the trailer company (TPD) and asked his advice. Victor said, "does the trailer ever carry weight over 10,000#?" Nope. "OK. Then, let's change the sticker on the trailer to read rated at 9,999#." I was like ... "we can do that?"

Victor said the trailer manufacturer can not over rate a trailer's capacity, but they can under rate them. The only concern would be legal liability if we ever carried over the rating. We did not. Loaded with 2 USAC Midgets (950# each) & supplies it weighed around 8000#. So TPD changed the rating sticker.


P.S. I read earlier in this thread, someone mentioned 1 55 gallon drum of fuel was the limit. We were told by CHP it was 2 drums. So if we needed to carry more fuel than 2 drums, we carried the rest in 5-gallon jugs ... which there is no limit on.

:cheers:

[David Pozzi]

Thanks Ron, the quote I have is from a Mid-West state, probably one of those things that varies.
Another issue in California is fueling from Non-Approved containers. A guy was cited at a gas station filling a jug which had a long hose to refuel motorcycles. The hose is not approved.
94565

California requires a nozzle with "non-spill" nozzle, which has to be pushed against the tank to open the valve, then the fuel flows at about 1/4 the normal rate which takes forever.
94564
I hear the plastic fuel jugs racers use are DOT approved for "transport" but how do you transfer the fuel from them to a car without an approved nozzle? Maybe they are available now.

Sorry, I'm getting off-track and want to stay on the trailer discussion. A comment was made stickers don't matter, but it will lead the officer in his questioning of you & what you say may go against the "evidence" on your car or trailer. If he suspects you are competing for money prizes, or advertising products, you may be treated as Commercial.

[David Pozzi]

I once went to a farm meeting on vehicle licensing, the California Highway partrol was there and there was disagreement between the officers on a question asked. They can ask the higher ups if there is a question but it showed me that some officers will nit-pick a LOT more than others, and a lot depends on the officer & his knowledge of the laws in question.

[Ron Sutton]

I once went to a farm meeting on vehicle licensing, the California Highway partrol was there and there was disagreement between the officers on a question asked. They can ask the higher ups if there is a question but it showed me that some officers will nit-pick a LOT more than others, and a lot depends on the officer & his knowledge of the laws in question.

Agreed. That is my experience too. That is why I shared my 2 drum story. The CHP that told us that could have been wrong. But that is how he practiced.

[BonzoHansen]

Iirc Albert was talking about this once, maybe when we at a run to the shore in nj. Maybe ping him.

Btw I hate those new anti spill deals too. I spill more gas now! /offtopic

[tigerracer]

I received some good advice from a fellow racer that let me use his 48 ft Featherlight to haul a car that I sold to a guy in New York and my vintage Sunbeam Tiger to race at Watkins Glen and Limerock. I had to get a class A license and he told me to take the registrations for the cars to prove they were mine. He garuanteed me that I would get stop going thru Texas. He was right, I was pulled over just east of Ammarillo, the highway patrol assumes you are commercial just by the size of trailer, good thing I had the car registration to prove they were mine.

Dale

[shmoov69]

DOT Nazi's..... Around here, my guess is about 90% revenue and 10% motor vehicle safety.

[andrewb70]

DOT Nazi's..... Around here, my guess is about 90% revenue and 10% motor vehicle safety.

We have a WINNER!

Andrew

[TheJDMan]

DOT Nazi's..... Around here, my guess is about 90% revenue and 10% motor vehicle safety.

It is all about generating revenue, safety is a by-product.

[Rifleman_Racing]

Im surprised more people don't know about this, has no one wondered why some of the really hardcore race trailers out there are all rated at 9999#, skirts the laws.

[parsonsj]

I agree most of this is about generating revenue, but that makes sense: the heaver the load, the more fractional wear to the roadway. That's why commercial haulers are subject to weight checkpoints and the like.

[parsonsj]

Another thought: I wish all driver's licenses in this country were CDL-like. Current passenger licensing standards are too easy, contributing to poor driving everywhere.

[srh3trinity]

If you do need a dot license, those may be getting more pricey as well. I am a physician and there is a new certification starting in mid may for dot medical examiners. It is expensive and more difficult to obtain meaning many docs won't go to the trouble of getting it. The ones that do may start charging more for the physical.

[rustomatic]

In CA (and probably everywhere else), chiropractors and physician's assistants (PAs) are allowed to conduct DOT physicals. Many doc-in-a-box places have stopped using doctors in favor of PAs for these services. Check the money box.

On the fuel hauling point, just in case you happen to have about a four-foot cube's worth of fuel in a trailer, know that you now have a tank (per quantity), and are subject to all kinds of hazmat rules and responsibilities (including the need for tank and hazmat endorsements on your class A CDL)...

It sounds like we need to return the old days of making a point of hard-butting our cars to the tracks themselves, on the road (when I've been this close to getting a trailer)...

[joshe54]

Here is what is going on in Iowa right now to get around these issues. Everyone needs to take this to their state reps and try to get something going in your home state. I have taken to my state rep in Texas to try and get them to work on something.

http://coolice.legis.iowa.gov/Cool-ICE/default.asp?Category=BillInfo&Service=Billbook&hbill=S5173&ga=85

[bishir]

If you come to Florida don't forget to stop at the agricultural stations when entering the state. If not expect to be pulled over for a 'fruit' inspection. ;)

Thanks for making this thread, its been an interesting read so far.

This makes me think about the junk people try to race at tracks and get through tech inspection ,and if that the amount of thought they put into their race car their towing equipment must be scary too. Thinking about my wife/kids in the minivan on the same highway with these bozos makes me appreciate the enforcement. I too have been on the receiving end of a DOT officer's 'discretion.' My problem is they're never around when I wish they were. For instance, dump trucks full of gravel merging onto the interstate spitting rocks everywhere with their 'NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR BROKEN GLASS" stickers. What a joke!

[vintageracer]

If you LOOK COMMERCIAL & SMELL COMMERCIAL your probably ARE COMMERCIAL!

That's that attitude of many a weight man on the interstate. It's up to you to prove to them that you are not commercial!

Let's face facts. No many private individuals are driving down the interstate pulling a LARGE trailer or other type of rig lettered up "advertising" their racing team or whatever they have plastered on the side since it's no fun to have a plain white/black trailer or rig. This is exactly the type of "guy" the weight man is looking for!

When I pull my 2 car trailer you can bet your A$$ that I have paperwork showing the 2 cars on the trailer are MY personally owned cars or just personally purchased cars (Bill of sale to me).. My truck and trailer is personally licensed to me with a FARM tag and not a commercial tag. My truck & trailer insurance in is in my name. Once again the average Joe DOES NOT run up and down the road with a 2 car trailer. When they do in most all cases they are hauling for commerce (Money) and not their own personal vehicles.

Again, Look commercial, smell commercial you probably are commercial.

Use a little common sense and you can avoid all the BS the commercial enforcement guys throw at you.

REMEMBER

All the other states MUST recognize the registration requirements in YOUR STATE of Residence for your type of vehicle. Example in Tennessee any vehicle of 8500# or higher GVW or with a "Weighted" license tag is supposed to run their license plate on the FRONT of the vehicle with no plate on the rear. No plate on the rear really gets other state weight men going and wanting to know "Where is your rear license plate?". That why I carry a copy of the Tennessee Code stating the registration requirements for my truck and why the tag/plate is on the FRONT of the truck. Other states can certainly ban the use certain types or equipment in their state (stinger on a old 1 ton chassis F350 type rollback is a good example) however they cannot stop you from driving through their state with properly registered and legal equipment.

Read your State and Federal DOT manual for more information concerning the requirement for your particular type of equipment.

[David Pozzi]

Mike, great advice!

[Anthony k]

I hear the plastic fuel jugs racers use are DOT approved for "transport" but how do you transfer the fuel from them to a car without an approved nozzle? Maybe they are available now.

.

Funnel

[David Pozzi]

Funnel
Funny, but not approved in California.

Here is a California approved "Fuel jug" it also must be labeled what the contents are, this one says Gasoline.
95261

[FlyDoc]

one reason the DOT is hitting all the "smaller" trailers, is because of all the "hot shots" (duds with pickups and trailers) running, and skirting all the laws.
look at the TV show Shipping Wars.
for the hazmat you need to get in the CFR 49, and find the law and regulation no your own. don't believe some cop that thinks he knows something, after a 4hr lecture!
the last 3years in the army I did hazmat certification for deployments. the class that I had to take was 10hr's a day for 3 weeks, and there was lots that we did not go over. so there is no way that a cop can walk-up and tell you are in the wrong with out a CFR49 in hand and asking questions.
after I get moved to TX I will find my CFR 49 and you all can ask questions and I will give you the correct Federal answer.
one thing that just comes to mind that will need looked up is the transportation of NOS, fuel, oxygen, acetylene, &, propane which most race teams have.

[wendell]

Regardless of your actual weight make sure your stickered cgvw is <26K#. And for God sake take off the race stickers. Every one I know understands it's a no no. Control your ego and stay under the radar of thieves and LEOs. Those two things will at least get you through every state on the east coast.

[67zo6Camaro]

David, I just saw this.

Yes it's true and has happened to me in Texas. I have a white Chevy 2500 truck with a white 24" enclosed car hauler. No logos and/or stickers on the outside. I got pulled over by a commerce Police officer.

The discussion got pretty heated as I was warned by a few fellow racers prior to going to Texas, that I could get pulled over. The officer started out friendly with small talk, then tried to interpret my hobby auto-crossing habit as a paid income if I won any races and venders provided parts and/or payment. He even went so far as inspecting my trailer. When he saw that I had vender stickers on the car he tried to corner me into admitting that I was a paid racer. My reply was that "everyone" puts sticker on their cars and he would have a hard time proving that I was a paid racer in court. I was very irritated a began asking him what the rules where for the GoodGuys autocross.... He was not able to answer, then I asked him that if he did not know the rules then how could he tell me that I would be paid for driving if I participated?

After a few back and forth questions with no real answers from him, I told him that he was harassing me and that I would like to leave now or he could call his superior out. This ended the discussion and I was on my way 1/2 hours later. What a pain in the ass to be interrogated on such false grounds. I even asked him why did he single out my "plain-Jain" white truck and trailer.... His response was that some of the Oil companies have been transporting goods in plain white trucks. He said his job was to enforce safety via checking for log books and making sure commercial transporters are taking required rest brakes....He said "safety and proper rest is important for their highways with speed of upto 80mph with trailers. I acknowledge that scenario and I agreed with the safety issues especially with trailering speeds up to 80mph. However, it does not give him the right to harass and accuse me of being a professional paid race car driver. Interesting on both sides of the coin for this one, as I do agree with the safety issues trailering at higher speeds. My set-up is a 6000lb truck with a trailer rated at 10000lbs. fully loaded I'm probably around 14,000lbs for both truck/trailer and contents.

As mentioned before, I agree that the bottom line is you should know the laws of the states that you will be trailering in. Agreed, that if you place stickers and logos on the outside of your truck and trailer you are just calling attention to yourself as a commercial rig.

[HellPhish89]

David, I just saw this.

Yes it's true and has happened to me in Texas. I have a white Chevy 2500 truck with a white 24" enclosed car hauler. No logos and/or stickers on the outside. I got pulled over by a commerce Police officer.

The discussion got pretty heated as I was warned by a few fellow racers prior to going to Texas, that I could get pulled over. The officer started out friendly with small talk, then tried to interpret my hobby auto-crossing habit as a paid income if I won any races and venders provided parts and/or payment. He even went so far as inspecting my trailer. When he saw that I had vender stickers on the car he tried to corner me into admitting that I was a paid racer. My reply was that "everyone" puts sticker on their cars and he would have a hard time proving that I was a paid racer in court. I was very irritated a began asking him what the rules where for the GoodGuys autocross.... He was not able to answer, then I asked him that if he did not know the rules then how could he tell me that I would be paid for driving if I participated?

After a few back and forth questions with no real answers from him, I told him that he was harassing me and that I would like to leave now or he could call his superior out. This ended the discussion and I was on my way 1/2 hours later. What a pain in the ass to be interrogated on such false grounds. I even asked him why did he single out my "plain-Jain" white truck and trailer.... His response was that some of the Oil companies have been transporting goods in plain white trucks. He said his job was to enforce safety via checking for log books and making sure commercial transporters are taking required rest brakes....He said "safety and proper rest is important for their highways with speed of upto 80mph with trailers. I acknowledge that scenario and I agreed with the safety issues especially with trailering speeds up to 80mph. However, it does not give him the right to harass and accuse me of being a professional paid race car driver. Interesting on both sides of the coin for this one, as I do agree with the safety issues trailering at higher speeds. My set-up is a 6000lb truck with a trailer rated at 10000lbs. fully loaded I'm probably around 14,000lbs for both truck/trailer and contents.

As mentioned before, I agree that the bottom line is you should know the laws of the states that you will be trailering in. Agreed, that if you place stickers and logos on the outside of your truck and trailer you are just calling attention to yourself as a commercial rig.

thats one screwed up phishing expedition

[FlyDoc]

I do believe that the DOT boys need to do there job's.
and that every measure is taken to transport our hazardous materials properly.
Items permanently attached to your car become part of the car, fuel tank and its contents, fire suppression systems, NOS bottles, and so forth.

but being randomly stopped with out probable cause, is a violation
of the 4th Amendment.

U.S. Constitution › Fourth Amendment
Fourth Amendment
Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
this is for the state of Michigan
but it should work for every state.
COMMON LAW VEHICULAR JUDICIAL NOTICE
CONSTITUTIONAL DRIVERS LICENSE

THE UNDERSIGNED Common Law Citizen_________________________: hereby Certifies, by Rights Secured under provisions of the Constitution of the United States of America, the Constitution of the several states, Common Law, Nature and Laws of Natures GOD, that these Rights are retained in FEE SIMPLE ABSOLUTE, and held and protected with special regard to Rights designated and/or set forth as follows: ALSO NOTE Rights and Property are ONE AND THE SAME THING-by the Honorable Justice LOUIS BRANDIS U.S. SUPREME COURT.

NOTICE AND ADVISORY OF RIGHTS CLAIMED INVIOLATE:

1) The Right to TRAVEL FREELY, UNENCUMBERED, and UNFETTERED is guaranteed as a RIGHT and not a mere privilege. That the Right to TRAVEL is such a BASIC RIGHT it does NOT even need to be mentioned for it is SELF-evident by Common Sense that the Right to TRAVEL is a BASIC CONCOMMITANT of a FREE Society to come and go from length and breath FREELY UNENCUMBERED and UNFETTERED distinguishes the characteristic required for a FREE PEOPLE TO EXIST IN FACT. Please See SHAPIRO vs. THOMSON, 394 U. S. 618 . Further, the Right to TRAVEL by private conveyance for private purposes upon the Common way can NOT BE INFRINGED. No license or permission is required for TRAVEL when such TRAVEL IS NOT for the purpose of [COMMERCIAL] PROFIT OR GAIN on the open highways operating under license IN COMMERCE. The above named Common Law Citizen listed IS NOT OPERATING IN COMMERCE and as such is thereby EXEMPTED FROM THE REQUIREMENT OF A LICENSE AS SUCH. Further, the _______________ state, is FORBIDDEN BY LAW from converting a BASIC RIGHT into a PRIVILEGE and requiring a LICENSE and or a FEE CHARGED for the exercise of the BASIC RIGHT. Please SEE MURDOCK vs. PENNSYLVANIA, 319 U.S. 105, and if _______________, state does ERRONIOUSLY convert BASIC RIGHTS into PRIVILEGES and require a License or FEE a Citizen may IGNORE THE LICENSE OR FEE WITH TOTAL IMMUNITY FOR SUCH EXERCISE OF A BASIC RIGHT. Please see Schuttlesworth vs. BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA, 373 U.S. 262. Now if a Citizen exercises a BASIC RIGHT and a Law of ANY state is to the contrary of such exercise of that BASIC RIGHT, the said supposed Law of ANY state is a FICTION OF LAW and 100% TOTALLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL and NO COURTS ARE BOUND TO UPHOLD IT AND NO Citizen is REQUIRED TO OBEY SUCH UNCONSTITUTIONAL LAW OR LICENSE REQUIREMENT. Please see MARBURY vs. MADISON, 5 U.S. 137 (1803), which has never been overturned in over 194 years, see Shephard's Citations. Now further, if a Citizen relies in good faith on the advice of Counsel and or on the Decisions of the UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT that Citizen has a PERFECT DEFENSE to the element of WILLFULNESS and since the burden of proof of said WILLFULNESS is on the Prosecution to prove beyond a REASONABLE DOUBT, said task or burden being totally impossible to specifically preform there is NO CAUSE OF ACTION FOR WHICH RELIEF MAY BE GRANTED BY A COURT OF LAW. Please see U.S. vs. Bishop 412 U.S. 346 . OBVIOUSLY THERE IS NO LAWFUL CHARGE AGAINST EXERCISING A BASIC Right to TRAVEL for a regular Common Law Citizen NOT IN COMMERCE on the common way Public HlGHWAY. THAT IS THE LAW!!! The above named Citizen IS IMMUNE FROM ANY CHARGE TO THE CONTRARY AND ANY PARTY MAKING SUCH CHARGE SHOULD BE DULY WARNED OF THE TORT OF TRESPASS!!! YOU ARE TRESPASSING ON THIS Common Law Citizen!!!

2) The original and Judicial jurisdiction of the United States Supreme Court is ALL actions in which a State may be party, thru subdivision, political or trust. This includes ALL state approved subdivisions and/or INCORPORATED Cities, Townships, Municipalities, and Villages, Et Al . Please see Article 3, Section 2, Para. (1) and (2), U.S. Constitution.

3) The undersigned has NEVER willingly and knowingly entered into ANY Contract or Contractual agreement giving up ANY Constitutional Rights which are secured by the CONSTITUTION, the SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND. This Common Law Citizen has NOT harmed any party, has NOT threatened any party, and that includes has NOT threatened or caused any endangerment to the safety or well being of any party and would leave any claimant otherwise to their strictest proofs otherwise IN A COURT OF LAW. The above named Citizen is merely exercising the BASIC RIGHT TO TRAVEL UNENCUMBERED and UNFETTERED on the Common public way or highway, which is their RIGHT TO SO DO!!! Please see Zobel vs. Williams, 457 U.S. 55, held the RIGHT TO TRAVEL is Constitutionally PROTECTED!!

4) Conversion of the RIGHT TO TRAVEL into a PRIVILEGE and or CRIME is A FRAUD and is in clear and direct conflict with she UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION, THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND. LAWS made by any state, which are clearly in direct CONFLICT or REPUGNANCY are UNCONSTITUTIONAL and are NOT WITH STANDING IN LAW AND ARE BEING CHALLENGED AS SUCH HERE AND THEREBY ARE NULL AND VOID OF LAW ON THEIR FACE. NO COURTS ARE BOUND TO UPHOLD SUCH FICTIONS OF LAW AND NO Citizen is bound to obey such a FICTION OF LAW. SUCH REGULATION OR LAW OPERATES AS A MERE NULLITY OR FICTION OF LAW AS IF IT NEVER EXISTED IN LAW. No CITIZEN IS BOUND TO OBEY SUCH UNCONSTITUTIONAL LAW!!!!!

5) The payment for a privilege requires a benifit to be received As the RIGHT TO TRAVEL is already secured it is clearly unlawful to cite any charges without direct damage to the specific party . Nor may a Citizen be charged with an offense for the exercise of a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT, in this case the RIGHT TO TRAVEL. Please see Miller vs. UNITED STATES 230 F2d 486 . Nor may a Citizen be denied DUE PROCESS OF LAW or EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW.

6) The undersigned does hereby claim, declare, and certify ANY AND ALL their CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS INVIOLATE from GOD and secured in THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION and the CONSTITUTION OF THE state wherein they abode as a SOVEREIGN, COMMON LAW CITIZEN existing and acting entirely AT THE COMMON LAW, and retains ALL BASIC RIGHTS under the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, NATURE AND NATURE'S GOD AND UNDER THE LAWS OF GOD THE SUPREME LAW GIVER.

7) ANY VIOLATOR OF THE ABOVE CONSTRUCTIVE NOTICE AND CLAIM IS CRIMINALLY TRESPASSING UPON THIS ABOVE NAMED COMMON LAW Citizen and WILL BE PROSECUTED TO THE FULLEST EXTENT UNDER THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND. BE WARNED OF THE TRESPASS AND THE ATTACHED CAVEATS. ALSO TAKE CONSTRUCTIVE NOTICE, IGNORANCE OF THE LAW IS NOT AN EXCUSE!!

[David Pozzi]

I'm really glad I started this thread, I am learning a lot.
I guess if you are hauling a car not registered to you, it gets tougher.

[shmoov69]

C'mon, you're grasping at straws now, you know that the government doesn't pay any attention to the Constitution anymore!! LoL!

Should be sad, and not funny actually.

[partsguy57]

The flip side of your comment about gravel trucks (I haul lots of rock with my dump trucks) is the idiot drivers that tailgate us.( and many other crazy stunts) You ride with me for a few days and you will see real quick who the real problem drivers are, not say that there are not poor cdl drivers. Its joe public average driver where the vast majority of problems are.

[Kenova]

The flip side of your comment about gravel trucks (I haul lots of rock with my dump trucks) is the idiot drivers that tailgate us.( and many other crazy stunts) You ride with me for a few days and you will see real quick who the real problem drivers are, not say that there are not poor cdl drivers. Its joe public average driver where the vast majority of problems are.
I completely agree with you, and I don't drive a heavy truck. I spent 28 years commuting an hour each way and the number of idiots on the road is astounding. I eventually got to the point where I could pick out the screw-ups even before they screwed up. It was like they had an invisible sign on their car.

Ken

[David Pozzi]

Here is a link to the SEMA page on avoiding being ticketed as a Commercial hauler: http://www.semasan.com/page.asp?content=motorsports_trailers&g=SEMAGA

[MonzaRacer]

So here in IN, they started being phallic appendages, so we started looking into DOT rules.
The rules here were, 10,100 total plate gvwr. SO 7000lb truck /3000lb trailer should be good to go. Another trick we started doing was finding local DOT inspection shop, we started keeping all applicable safety equipment, triangles,extinguishers,fuses, first aid kit(hit local municipal school garage, they have to swap out first aid kits every so often, find out if they have old ones or have to turn them in) school bus supply companies have best first aid kit, and kind of handy anyway.
Get truck/car/trailer DOT inspected,use appropriate tie downs, proper numbers etc.
Keep track of trips while towing, log books are cheap.
No some will say this says you ARE commercial, but from what I was told this practice keeps you closer to being seen as not trying to skirt laws AND shows your equipment is up to spec.
I know of three guys who swapped truck plates(put lower lb plate on 3/4 ton with no issue) duallys might not get any break. I have double axle trailer, and intend to at least have DOT papers on it and truck.
Also if NOT commercial vehicle, you do not HAVE to display dot numbers, but having the paperwork might cops off back.
Just what several LEOs, DOT inspection shops have related to me. At least here in Indiana
Research well and ask questions.
Good luck.

[nokones]

In California, you do not need a class A or B license if the motorhome is under 40' and with trailer, the combined length is under 65'. When I had my multiple race teams, one of our vehicles was a motorcoach (39' 6") and a custom built stacker trailer (24' 6"). This combo was 64' ... so legal to drive with a regular license.

Or so I thought. :hand:

A CHP officer walked up to the coach when the guys were stopped at a truck stop for diesel fuel and walked around it. He found my driver Sal and asked if he had Class A license? Well ... "no ... why would we need one?" Turns out the trailer was "rated" at 15,000 GVW and if it is rated at 10,000 or above, you need a class A license. It didn't matter what the trailer weighed ... just what it was rated at. :confused:

So 120 miles from home (Sacramento) ... on the way to a race in Las Vegas ... carrying 2 race cars, supplies & crew members ... the CHP officer informs my driver the coach & trailer can not move without a driver with a class A license. :help:

Sal called me ... and only thanks to my deep network of Class A rig drivers on speed dial ... was I able to have a class A licensed rig driver there in an hour and a half to keep the rig & crew rolling to their destination.

After the race weekend, I called my long time buddy Victor at the trailer company (TPD) and asked his advice. Victor said, "does the trailer ever carry weight over 10,000#?" Nope. "OK. Then, let's change the sticker on the trailer to read rated at 9,999#." I was like ... "we can do that?"

Victor said the trailer manufacturer can not over rate a trailer's capacity, but they can under rate them. The only concern would be legal liability if we ever carried over the rating. We did not. Loaded with 2 USAC Midgets (950# each) & supplies it weighed around 8000#. So TPD changed the rating sticker.


P.S. I read earlier in this thread, someone mentioned 1 55 gallon drum of fuel was the limit. We were told by CHP it was 2 drums. So if we needed to carry more fuel than 2 drums, we carried the rest in 5-gallon jugs ... which there is no limit on.

:cheers:

I realize that this was posted almost 2 years ago but, I just read it for the first time today. In regards to the California law, today in 2015, even if the trailer is rated at 9999 GVWR and the weight exceeds 10,001 (tagged trailers) or 15,001 (5th Wheel Trailers), you are required to have a Class A Drivers license. The old law was based on just GVWR and now it is based on both GVWR and laden Gross Weight. Also, if you are towing a trailer that is laden or GVWR is more 10,001 pounds, and you are not towing for commercial purposes, you can get a Non-Commercial Class A Driver's License in California as long as you do not exceed combined vehicle gross weight or rating of 26,001. If you exceed 26,001 regardless if it is commercial or not you are required to have a Commercial Class A Driver's License.

Now, if you are out of state this is where most cops have no idea what California does in regards to the various driver's license classifications so they will interpret enforce their local driver's license regulations on your California driver's license. Just about every State in the 48 states have signed what is called a Driver's License Compact and this Compact is written in the respective vehicle codes. What this means is that they, the other states are suppose to honor the other states driver's license regulations in their state.

Why I point this out is because California issues non-commercial Class A driver's license and a lot of states do not, except for Motorhomes.

Also, if you carry any hazardous product such as gasoline, propane, nitrogen, and even your fire ext., it would be wise to have the Materials Safety Data Sheets for each hazardous product you are carrying regardless of the amount. Some states will cite you if you do not have that information.

Some States require that you enter the scales just for pulling any trailer regardless if you are commercial or not. In Nebraska it used to be that way and I am not sure if it is still that way or not. Pay attention to the signs for each scale you approach. If it says "All Trailer Must Enter Scales" you better enter the scales or they will chase you down and that will probably be the first of many violation that you will be cited for. In some states the vehicle code is specific thickness and there is always something that you can be cited for, so don't blow by the scales and play stupid.

I remember a friend of mine that was going to the SCCA Solo Nationals back in the early 90s towing his a Uhaul type trailer that he bought from the old Jartran Trailer Rental Company and he pulled this little 8ft trailer behind his 3rd Gen Camaro and whizzed by the Scales on I.S. 80 in Nebraska because he did not obey the sign "all Trailers". Well, they went after hime and made him to return to the scales and decided to do the whole enforcement thing on him and deemed that his trailer was Commercial because he had "Yokohama Tires" decals on the side of this old Jartran trailer. He had to pay for a commercial permit just because those stickers deemed his trailer commercial. I don't recall if he was asked the question about making money or not.

So, be careful in how you answer their questions. If your trailer weighs more than 10,001 for tagged trailer and 15,001 for a 5th wheel trailer you better have a Class A driver's license or they will tie you up and you will not be able to leave until you have the proper driver's license.

[nokones]

In CA (and probably everywhere else), chiropractors and physician's assistants (PAs) are allowed to conduct DOT physicals. Many doc-in-a-box places have stopped using doctors in favor of PAs for these services. Check the money box.

On the fuel hauling point, just in case you happen to have about a four-foot cube's worth of fuel in a trailer, know that you now have a tank (per quantity), and are subject to all kinds of hazmat rules and responsibilities (including the need for tank and hazmat endorsements on your class A CDL)...

It sounds like we need to return the old days of making a point of hard-butting our cars to the tracks themselves, on the road (when I've been this close to getting a trailer)...

Not anymore unless they are federally registered and certified and conduct the examination under the federal regulations.

[nokones]

Well, yes and no. Your driver's license is not a right it is a privilege and in most states the law states you can be pulled over at any time for a commercial vehicle inspection. If the Officer deems that you are commercial you must submit to a vehicle inspection. Commercial plates on your pickup will deem you a commercial vehicle to start with.


I do believe that the DOT boys need to do there job's.
and that every measure is taken to transport our hazardous materials properly.
Items permanently attached to your car become part of the car, fuel tank and its contents, fire suppression systems, NOS bottles, and so forth.

but being randomly stopped with out probable cause, is a violation
of the 4th Amendment.

U.S. Constitution › Fourth Amendment
Fourth Amendment
Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
this is for the state of Michigan
but it should work for every state.
COMMON LAW VEHICULAR JUDICIAL NOTICE
CONSTITUTIONAL DRIVERS LICENSE

THE UNDERSIGNED Common Law Citizen_________________________: hereby Certifies, by Rights Secured under provisions of the Constitution of the United States of America, the Constitution of the several states, Common Law, Nature and Laws of Natures GOD, that these Rights are retained in FEE SIMPLE ABSOLUTE, and held and protected with special regard to Rights designated and/or set forth as follows: ALSO NOTE Rights and Property are ONE AND THE SAME THING-by the Honorable Justice LOUIS BRANDIS U.S. SUPREME COURT.

NOTICE AND ADVISORY OF RIGHTS CLAIMED INVIOLATE:

1) The Right to TRAVEL FREELY, UNENCUMBERED, and UNFETTERED is guaranteed as a RIGHT and not a mere privilege. That the Right to TRAVEL is such a BASIC RIGHT it does NOT even need to be mentioned for it is SELF-evident by Common Sense that the Right to TRAVEL is a BASIC CONCOMMITANT of a FREE Society to come and go from length and breath FREELY UNENCUMBERED and UNFETTERED distinguishes the characteristic required for a FREE PEOPLE TO EXIST IN FACT. Please See SHAPIRO vs. THOMSON, 394 U. S. 618 . Further, the Right to TRAVEL by private conveyance for private purposes upon the Common way can NOT BE INFRINGED. No license or permission is required for TRAVEL when such TRAVEL IS NOT for the purpose of [COMMERCIAL] PROFIT OR GAIN on the open highways operating under license IN COMMERCE. The above named Common Law Citizen listed IS NOT OPERATING IN COMMERCE and as such is thereby EXEMPTED FROM THE REQUIREMENT OF A LICENSE AS SUCH. Further, the _______________ state, is FORBIDDEN BY LAW from converting a BASIC RIGHT into a PRIVILEGE and requiring a LICENSE and or a FEE CHARGED for the exercise of the BASIC RIGHT. Please SEE MURDOCK vs. PENNSYLVANIA, 319 U.S. 105, and if _______________, state does ERRONIOUSLY convert BASIC RIGHTS into PRIVILEGES and require a License or FEE a Citizen may IGNORE THE LICENSE OR FEE WITH TOTAL IMMUNITY FOR SUCH EXERCISE OF A BASIC RIGHT. Please see Schuttlesworth vs. BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA, 373 U.S. 262. Now if a Citizen exercises a BASIC RIGHT and a Law of ANY state is to the contrary of such exercise of that BASIC RIGHT, the said supposed Law of ANY state is a FICTION OF LAW and 100% TOTALLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL and NO COURTS ARE BOUND TO UPHOLD IT AND NO Citizen is REQUIRED TO OBEY SUCH UNCONSTITUTIONAL LAW OR LICENSE REQUIREMENT. Please see MARBURY vs. MADISON, 5 U.S. 137 (1803), which has never been overturned in over 194 years, see Shephard's Citations. Now further, if a Citizen relies in good faith on the advice of Counsel and or on the Decisions of the UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT that Citizen has a PERFECT DEFENSE to the element of WILLFULNESS and since the burden of proof of said WILLFULNESS is on the Prosecution to prove beyond a REASONABLE DOUBT, said task or burden being totally impossible to specifically preform there is NO CAUSE OF ACTION FOR WHICH RELIEF MAY BE GRANTED BY A COURT OF LAW. Please see U.S. vs. Bishop 412 U.S. 346 . OBVIOUSLY THERE IS NO LAWFUL CHARGE AGAINST EXERCISING A BASIC Right to TRAVEL for a regular Common Law Citizen NOT IN COMMERCE on the common way Public HlGHWAY. THAT IS THE LAW!!! The above named Citizen IS IMMUNE FROM ANY CHARGE TO THE CONTRARY AND ANY PARTY MAKING SUCH CHARGE SHOULD BE DULY WARNED OF THE TORT OF TRESPASS!!! YOU ARE TRESPASSING ON THIS Common Law Citizen!!!

2) The original and Judicial jurisdiction of the United States Supreme Court is ALL actions in which a State may be party, thru subdivision, political or trust. This includes ALL state approved subdivisions and/or INCORPORATED Cities, Townships, Municipalities, and Villages, Et Al . Please see Article 3, Section 2, Para. (1) and (2), U.S. Constitution.

3) The undersigned has NEVER willingly and knowingly entered into ANY Contract or Contractual agreement giving up ANY Constitutional Rights which are secured by the CONSTITUTION, the SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND. This Common Law Citizen has NOT harmed any party, has NOT threatened any party, and that includes has NOT threatened or caused any endangerment to the safety or well being of any party and would leave any claimant otherwise to their strictest proofs otherwise IN A COURT OF LAW. The above named Citizen is merely exercising the BASIC RIGHT TO TRAVEL UNENCUMBERED and UNFETTERED on the Common public way or highway, which is their RIGHT TO SO DO!!! Please see Zobel vs. Williams, 457 U.S. 55, held the RIGHT TO TRAVEL is Constitutionally PROTECTED!!

4) Conversion of the RIGHT TO TRAVEL into a PRIVILEGE and or CRIME is A FRAUD and is in clear and direct conflict with she UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION, THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND. LAWS made by any state, which are clearly in direct CONFLICT or REPUGNANCY are UNCONSTITUTIONAL and are NOT WITH STANDING IN LAW AND ARE BEING CHALLENGED AS SUCH HERE AND THEREBY ARE NULL AND VOID OF LAW ON THEIR FACE. NO COURTS ARE BOUND TO UPHOLD SUCH FICTIONS OF LAW AND NO Citizen is bound to obey such a FICTION OF LAW. SUCH REGULATION OR LAW OPERATES AS A MERE NULLITY OR FICTION OF LAW AS IF IT NEVER EXISTED IN LAW. No CITIZEN IS BOUND TO OBEY SUCH UNCONSTITUTIONAL LAW!!!!!

5) The payment for a privilege requires a benifit to be received As the RIGHT TO TRAVEL is already secured it is clearly unlawful to cite any charges without direct damage to the specific party . Nor may a Citizen be charged with an offense for the exercise of a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT, in this case the RIGHT TO TRAVEL. Please see Miller vs. UNITED STATES 230 F2d 486 . Nor may a Citizen be denied DUE PROCESS OF LAW or EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW.

6) The undersigned does hereby claim, declare, and certify ANY AND ALL their CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS INVIOLATE from GOD and secured in THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION and the CONSTITUTION OF THE state wherein they abode as a SOVEREIGN, COMMON LAW CITIZEN existing and acting entirely AT THE COMMON LAW, and retains ALL BASIC RIGHTS under the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, NATURE AND NATURE'S GOD AND UNDER THE LAWS OF GOD THE SUPREME LAW GIVER.

7) ANY VIOLATOR OF THE ABOVE CONSTRUCTIVE NOTICE AND CLAIM IS CRIMINALLY TRESPASSING UPON THIS ABOVE NAMED COMMON LAW Citizen and WILL BE PROSECUTED TO THE FULLEST EXTENT UNDER THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND. BE WARNED OF THE TRESPASS AND THE ATTACHED CAVEATS. ALSO TAKE CONSTRUCTIVE NOTICE, IGNORANCE OF THE LAW IS NOT AN EXCUSE!!

[j-c-c]

It may not be obvious to those new to this topic, but most everything here is determined by the simple question of commercial vs non commercial. The reasoning is I believe, persons have constitutional rights, and they are very hard to erode. Businesses have not been in most cases considered to have any equivalent rights, and therefore that leaves a huge loophole for enforcement action against anything deemed commercial. Very recent SC rulings however have started to change that very slightly, and I suppose it's a matter time before its tested and further defined, like for example, your car (castle doctrine) cannot be searched/stopped with out probable cause, unless, with certain restrictions, for LEO safety, imminent pubic danger, etc. Your vehicle when defined as "commercial" can be searched whenever, for no stated reasons, as many times as wanted, etc, ie the commercial vehicle is not your"castle" and it has no rights.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood

Regarding the issue of acquiescing because it ultimately enhances the safety of your family members, you would be hard to prove that to me. That is what they use to justify the regulations, enhanced enforcement, fines, etc, yes, but there is so little real emphasis on the actual safety of the vehicle, and potential real risk, vs, just paperwork compliance. I am certain if i used a strict interpretation of the DOT rule package (likely approaching the complexity and length of IRS tax codes) I could rule "out of service" 99.99% of the trucks on the road. The fines are NOT to collect money, they are to justify the existence and finance those departments handing out the fines. The general public is not getting their tax burden reduced by these fines.

Additionally, the driver twice? a year who vislts his local track with his car in tow, has to abide by the same rules package that Walmart does with its 100,000 of trucks and likely dozens of lawyers and hundreds of staff for recording keeping for thier 100's of millions of annual miles. I believe in fairness, but the risk is not the same or even close.

On the earlier comment transporting as many 5 gal jugs as you like, is I believe ,incorrect, its 110gals limit, which conveniently is 2 55gal drums if preferred. Also a Haz Mat CDL endorsement requires biannual back ground checks, at your cost.

The military member's comment here on on his multi week training on his learning Haz Mat rules, should be very telling. It is complicated, and way overkill IMO.

The comment that multiple LEO have different interpretations of the rules, is not something the public should simply stick thier tail between thier legs and accept. The rules should be clear, written and not vague and up to LEO discretion whether he likes your attitude, hair length, party, brand of car, but kissing, etc.

I recently attended a Fla DOT safety seminar, the 4 LEO's present clearly stated in most cases a contemporaneous, filled out log book is needed, but elected not to explain how its done since it is so "complicated", and to get a private professional tutor, but they will gladly fine you on the road if they deem it incorrect. Say What?

On the driving is a "privilege", I can see that in 1776, but we as citizens to have a constitutional right to move about, try that without a state issued license. I can see in 1776 our current situation not being anticipated, but I believe driving is a right, and that is very important since taking away would involve due process, now its a letter from the the DMV, if they want to spend the money on a stamp, which they are not obligated to do.
http://www.realtruth.biz/driving/supremecourt.htm

Also on a historic note for those who are unhappy, and want to point fingers, this all started in 1986, check who was in the WH, it has expanded every session since.

It will get worse.

Best, easiest, least damage/risk fix, simply change the Arbitrarily chosen 10,000lb weight threshold to say, 16,000lb?, I bet half the current trucks now included would be out from under this mess. All safety laws are still in effect, chains, brakes, lights, tires, etc, but the hassle is gone unless you have a violation.