Targa Truck '71 GMC build - The first truck in Targa Newfoundland.

[bovey]

so you said a few times that the stock frame isn't up to snuff anymore. whats the plan for this incredibly awesome truck? tube chassis?

I'm looking at a complete chassis, But my case is a tad unusual.

1) My truck started as a rusty Northern truck - so the frame is compromised due to corrosion.

2) It's a long bed.

The chassis options I'm looking at are all still ladder design style similar to a stock chassis, but it'll be boxed, etc AND tied up with a 10/12 point cage. I've seen guys work with the stock chassis, cut it, change it, etc. Most have regretted using the stock frame rails. I've also explored the cost of using a clean stock frame vs. having the rails build and it's not that much different in cost to go full custom when you are going full on.

I know what I want to do, I have most of the people and parts planned out. I'm wrapping my head around the timing, the costs involved in this level of project, and looking at the events I want to take on over the next 5 years to make sure the truck is ready to rock.

Thanks for thinking the truck is awesome. Appreciate it.

[bovey]

Time blasts by. I came home, put the truck in the garage broken-ish and have yet to even unpack it - work has been crazy.

Here are a handful of photos from LS Fest, it was awesome. If you visit Targa Truck's Facebook page, there is a pile of photos.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.829753120478046.1073741841.519149518205076&type=1&l=65a4c2ac05

As this is the trucks section, let's start with a truck. This thing is awesome.
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It was great to see the 48 hour Vette rock it.
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And then there were the LS swaps, they sure bring out the haters.
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This Porsche was super tidy.
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This truck has a turbo the size of my head. There's a photo on the fb link.
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Met Kyle Tucker this week-end, super nice guy and wow, can he make this Camaro dance. LOVE.
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The Summit cars were neat, very racey. But I'm all for extreme, so bring it.
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And finally, my beast hanging with a 427 COPO and my SDPC peeps. They were super nice.
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Again, way more photos on Facebook, I just can't post them all here. More photos from the trip to share, next up is my awesome visit with Rob and his crew at No Limit Engineering. I just need to process them.

[andrewb70]

Mark,

Thanks for posting all those pictures!

Andrew

[bovey]

So, I heard some very confused kids in costumes talking about getting car parts in their loot bags. I quickly ran out to the garage to find the truck was joining in on the trick or treat fun. I then explained to the truck that kids like CANDY!

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Happy Halloween everyone!

[Badbowtie383x]

That's AWESOME. Happy Halloween. I know I'm a day late but still.



So, I heard some very confused kids in costumes talking about getting car parts in their loot bags. I quickly ran out to the garage to find the truck was joining in on the trick or treat fun. I then explained to the truck that kids like CANDY!

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Happy Halloween everyone!

[bovey]

Part 3 of my LS Fest Adventure. This is the final part.

By this point LS Fest was over, everyone had left. I was packed and ready to return home to Canada. As I was already in Kentucky, I called Rob at No Limit Engineering to see if I could swing by. And by swing by, it was a 4 hour trip East to his new shop in Dandridge, TN. The odd thing was his shop was the exact same distance home as it was from my hotel in Bowling Green Kentucky so this adventure was totally worth the 4 hour drive, even it was only for a 5 minute meet and greet.

When I arrived Rob and his crew were stuffing a new tranny into Hellboy, we started to chat and I asked permission to take some photos of his shop. He said it was okay to share them too, so here. I have to say, it was awesome to check out Hellboy and the Velocity Camaro up close. I live so far away from the action, I only see this stuff on the internet.
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Rob was a great host and showed me around No Limit, this is what he called one of their standard No Limit chassis for a C10
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He also showed me a bunch of his new stuff, like the Sniper IFS package they are developing for their new shop car.
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And he had a set of carbon Corvette brakes for a customer car. They are huge. HUGE. That is my size 11 shoe sitting in front.
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In total, I was there for 3 hours. Met the crew, who were really nice, it was great. Turns out Rob likes to have photo taken with his visitors, which was super cool.
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After No Limit, it was back on the Interstate. I had 875 miles to get home. I had been living in the truck for 7 days now. Let me tell you, a containment seat is really comfy while competing, but after 8-10 hours a day bombing across the country, my boney butt was done. Everyone always asks me: "How's the gas milage in that THING?!?!" Too be honest, it's great, the @ss milage is the problem. In 6th gear I need to get out every 25 bucks of 93 octane fuel and go for a walk. Time for a hotel stop anyway.

The next morning, I hit a Bob Evan's for a massive breakfast and hit the road. Again, the rest stops you have on the interstates are awesome. I was making great time, so I was taking it easy, checking out the sights on my way home. This was a stop in West Virginia, I love West Virginia, but it doesn't like me. Or more specifically, West Virginia does not like my belt tensioners...
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I had turned onto an off ramp to get gas, and stretch. But this gas station was 10 miles off the highway, so I jabbed the throttle, spun the truck around and headed back down the on ramp to find one closer to the Interstate. But when I jabbed the throttle, I heard a funny creak/snap sound... then my alternator idiot light came on. Joy. Sure enough my fan tensioner had snapped, oddly, the last time I broke a fan tensioner, I was going through West Virginia. 2 broken fan tensioners - Twice in West Virginia - Have only been through West Virginia twice in my life. The odds.

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It was not that big of a deal, I carry spare parts, one of which is a fan tensioner. I was only off the road for 10 minutes. Better yet, the AutoZone 20 minutes away had one in stock. Once I arrived, I met Bill. Unfortunately, the tensioner was not quiet right so Bill pulled out all the stops and found me one - at O'Reilly's. Now that is service.

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A quick stop by O'Reilly's to pick-up a new back-up tensioner and I was back on the road. By this point, I was about 3 hours from home. No problem I thought, I grabbed a coffee and hit the highway, I'll be home by 11PM. I was flying down the highway, and something smelled funny, kinda like hot oil, but not engine oil. I went to pull over and the wheel was like a rock... power steering fluid was the smell...

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Let me tell you, Pennsylvania is dark. Like There were no lights anywhere. It was about 11PM and the power steering had puked everywhere. Turns out my antics at LS Fest had moved the inner fender over a enough to push a line fitting into my reservoir. There was no fixing this, so I cut the belt off as it's dedicated to the PS pump. Easy. I also unloaded part of a can of brake cleaner to clean up the mess, which had ran all the way to the rear of the truck through the frame and managed to splash everywhere.

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In the middle of the night, traffic flies. The rest of the trip was un-eventful, other than the border guards were totally confused when I pulled up at 1AM. They ended up yanking me and searching the truck. Apparently, driving a racey looking truck and hanging out in both Kentucky and Tennessee and saying repeatedly "No, I have no firearms and did not by any firearms" don't add up. Anyway, they were nice about it.

I got home, stuffed the truck in the garage at around 2:30AM. Hugged my sleeping 3 y/o son, and crawled into bed with my wife. It was an amazing 2000+ mile trip, the open road is freaking awesome in this truck, I met some amazing people, saw some killer cars and got the toss around my truck for a few days at LS Fest. Perfect.

[Badbowtie383x]

Wow those brakes are massive. Are you hoping one day to have a no limit chassis or something similar ? Any upgrades lately or just home for the holidays? Hope your having a good Holiday break and Happy New Year to everyone.

[bovey]

Wow those brakes are massive. Are you hoping one day to have a no limit chassis or something similar ? Any upgrades lately or just home for the holidays? Hope your having a good Holiday break and Happy New Year to everyone.

Yeah, the plan was to get No Limit going on a chassis, I've been working my butt off saving up money to pull the trigger. HOWEVER, I got caught in a weird issue. Currency Exchange. The US economy has been doing well and sadly, our oil industry took a hit here in Canada (this is an over-simplification), but the result is it currently costs me $1.42 to by $1 US. And when you start talking in 1000s of dollars... well, you get the idea.

So, I've been wracking my brain changing my plans for upgrades. I just can't do the chassis right now. I have a mid-step plan mostly figured out. Instead of going to V2 of the Targa Truck, I'm going to do a V1.42 (insert currency exchange joke here). I'll post the plans soon. One thing I do intend on adding to the build is a video series, I've always wanted to create one and am figuring out how to write/plan it.

Happy New Year everyone!

[Steve-O-08]

That sucks about the damper on you plans. Definitely going to be cool whichever way you go.

BTW, what wheels do you have on the truck?

[bovey]

That sucks about the damper on you plans. Definitely going to be cool whichever way you go.

BTW, what wheels do you have on the truck?

Ahhh... life. It'll get done, I'm just concerned about wasting money, when money is the problem. The trick is going to be doing some changes that will not get lost when future improvements are made.

My current bronze 18"x10" wheels are New Gen, the black 18"x9" wheels you see on the truck from time-to-time are Pro Comps. If you want to know more about the wheels, go to page 4 of the build thread all of the info is there.

Also Steve-O-08, I'm a big fan of your truck and build thread. I always look forward to your updates, I really dig that year.

Also, today LSXtv released a article on LS swapped trucks, the Targa Truck included! I happened to meet a press guy at LS Fest who had actually heard of the truck. I was so taken back. Anyway, take a read, and please share. And thanks to everyone reading this thread and helping keep the truck alive.

http://www.lsxtv.com/features/car-features/three-not-of-a-kind-an-unlikely-trio-of-ls-swapped-pickups/

[Dr G]

Part 3 of my LS Fest Adventure. This is the final part.
I got home, stuffed the truck in the garage at around 2:30AM. Hugged my sleeping 3 y/o son, and crawled into bed with my wife. It was an amazing 2000+ mile trip, the open road is freaking awesome in this truck, I met some amazing people, saw some killer cars and got the toss around my truck for a few days at LS Fest. Perfect.Fun trip report. Thanks!

[Steve-O-08]

Ahhh... life. It'll get done, I'm just concerned about wasting money, when money is the problem. The trick is going to be doing some changes that will not get lost when future improvements are made.

My current bronze 18"x10" wheels are New Gen, the black 18"x9" wheels you see on the truck from time-to-time are Pro Comps. If you want to know more about the wheels, go to page 4 of the build thread all of the info is there.

Also Steve-O-08, I'm a big fan of your truck and build thread. I always look forward to your updates, I really dig that year.

Also, today LSXtv released a article on LS swapped trucks, the Targa Truck included! I happened to meet a press guy at LS Fest who had actually heard of the truck. I was so taken back. Anyway, take a read, and please share. And thanks to everyone reading this thread and helping keep the truck alive.

http://www.lsxtv.com/features/car-features/three-not-of-a-kind-an-unlikely-trio-of-ls-swapped-pickups/

Thanks man i appreciate it. Definitely more to come just a little at a time. I contacted New Gen wheels through Facebook after I tried to get on their website from a link and it didn't work. They are apparently not making wheels anymore... Bummer.

[Badbowtie383x]

Mr Bovey I forgot to ask how was Ron Suttons tuning event? I wish I could of gone, I did at least order his book if they ever getting the print right. That stinks about the frame deal. Fully understand how you don't want to waste money on upgrades if they can't be used in the future. I didn't even notice on No Limits site do they make a LWB frame or was is something they were going to custom make? Love the build keep it up thanks.

[bovey]

Mr Bovey I forgot to ask how was Ron Suttons tuning event? I wish I could of gone, I did at least order his book if they ever getting the print right. That stinks about the frame deal. Fully understand how you don't want to waste money on upgrades if they can't be used in the future. I didn't even notice on No Limits site do they make a LWB frame or was is something they were going to custom make? Love the build keep it up thanks.

Ron's event was great. Some of it was over my head, but I learned a lot. His demonstration of roll centre was amazing. I also like Ron, he's a nice guy and a good presenter. I've enjoyed working with him because we have similar build sensibilities.

The frame thing bugs me, I can't believe I have to do the next stage of the build the exact way I hate doing a build. But it's either figure it out, or don't drive it. And not driving it, or leaving it in parts for a year or two is NOT an option. This truck was in parts for the first 8 years I owned it, never drove once. And I'll never do that again.

As for a long wheelbase frame. No one makes a chassis for a LWB truck, because everyone cuts down LWB into SWBs. The chassis is the same, they have the front and rear chassis horns pre-cut, only mine the middle piece will be 12" longer for the extra length. We've discussed some other tricks to help it turn; it'll never turn like a SWB truck or Pony Car, but that's fine.

I'm having a meeting with a local builder this week-end, once plans are set, I'll post an update.

[linkstar69]

Just read your thread from start to finish. Love the truck and love how its evolving

[RobNoLimit]

Mark, please keep us in the chassis loop. I may be able to help out. - have some ideas for you.

[bovey]

Just read your thread from start to finish. Love the truck and love how its evolving

Awesome. Thank you. And I'd also like to thank you and your country for producing the original Mad Max and Road Warrior.


Mark, please keep us in the chassis loop. I may be able to help out. - have some ideas for you.

Rob! Very cool. I'll be in touch. Thank you.

[Rod]

fun read Mark

[Ethereal]

QQ about your brake setup -- I've been reading about brakes in general and have taken it for granted that I'd go to discs in the back until I came across an article from stoptech. Their point was basically that the brake force is split 70/30 to the front, and so most clamping force needs to be on the front brakes. They also pointed out that the limiting factor in braking is almost always the tires, not the brakes and that the point of going to bigger brakes would be for heat dissipation and not really at all to gain braking force.

Given that, I'm thinking that rear drums will actually do just fine for braking power (I can lock up all four drums no problem!) but what about heat dissipation? Basically I'm wondering if you've thought about all this and have some definitive reasoning behind brake selection, especially since you had assistance with your brakes selection.

Re: chassis, why not buy a SWB chassis and have it lengthened, in the opposite way that people cut down LWB trucks? I bet it would be a heck of a lot cheaper than having a custom chassis built. Maybe I missed it in this thread, but besides rust what are the limiting factors of your current chassis? And would a new chassis force you out of vintage/classic race classes?

[Dr G]

Given that, I'm thinking that rear drums will actually do just fine for braking power (I can lock up all four drums no problem!) but what about heat dissipation?

I've read this many times. I can lock up my brakes so why should I need to modify them?

My response is that when you are trying to stop quickly, locking up your brakes is the last thing you want to do. You want to stop as quickly as possible without locking up your brakes. That is why discs are better than drums, and bigger discs are usually better than smaller discs.

My two cents...

Gustave

[bovey]

QQ about your brake setup -- I've been reading about brakes in general and have taken it for granted that I'd go to discs in the back until I came across an article from stoptech. Their point was basically that the brake force is split 70/30 to the front, and so most clamping force needs to be on the front brakes. They also pointed out that the limiting factor in braking is almost always the tires, not the brakes and that the point of going to bigger brakes would be for heat dissipation and not really at all to gain braking force.

Yes. And for example, the upgrade I'm looking at doing - going from stock from rotors w/Wilwood D52s and a simple 12.19" Wilwood rear to a 13.06" 6 piston front, 4 piston rear - stopping power is similar. However, heat dissipation is vastly improved, consistency issues are solved (swapping a 9" floater for the c-clip 12 bolt is a factor too), but the fancier larger set-up also should give me better modulation. Ideally, with lower heat, I spend less time bleeding brakes.


QQ Given that, I'm thinking that rear drums will actually do just fine for braking power (I can lock up all four drums no problem!) but what about heat dissipation? Basically I'm wondering if you've thought about all this and have some definitive reasoning behind brake selection, especially since you had assistance with your brakes selection.

I've looked at many options. But first, as Dr G pointed out, just because you can lock up all 4 wheels doesn't mean you have loads of breaking force. Weight transfer, tire selection, wheel weight, spring rate, shocks, MC size, pedal ratio, etc, etc, all affect your ability to brake. Let's not for get you, have you been taught how you properly brake? The best mod I've made to my truck is the driver mod. AND I have a long way to go.

A few things on drum brakes you may want to look into, because I'm no expert.

1) Heavy. And heavy in a bad place. My C10 drums were crazy heavy.
2) All that weight holds heat. The drum. The backing plate.
3) What's in that oven of brake drum and backing plate - the wheel brake cylinder.
4) What is inside that hot wheel brake cylinder, inside the oven of brake parts - fluid - fluid that hates heat.
5) When the drum expands due to heat; the tolerances get bigger, in a bad way.
6) Drum brakes have springs that pull the brakes off. I dunno about you, but I don't want anything fighting me when I hit the brakes.
7) Performance drum brake pads have got to be limited

AGAIN, I'm no expert, and if someone knows better, or I've missed something, or gotten something wrong. PLEASE CORRECT ME.

As for my reasoning behind my brake selection, I read a lot. That reading revealed that my ability to judge a brake system was not good enough. My experience buying my rear brakes exposed a 2nd problem, brake manufactures believe their brakes are the best (as they should). That is why I went with a third party (RSRT) to help me understand what was best. Math typically does not lie, better yet math does not show preference, nor does math care about the logo on the parts.

A few other things guided me, the big one was heat. My truck is heavy AND I do endurance runs. What you intend on doing with the vehicle is very important. When I first AutoXed my truck it had drum brakes and it worked fine and it was fun. But when I punish it for 10-12 hours a day? When concrete barriers, rocks, cliffs, trees, and oceans have replaced pylons? I need to trust my brakes.

My current brake plans are based on these factors:

1) Stopping power for the weight of my truck
2) Heat dissipation and reliability. Repeatable performance.
3) Parts availability - AKA: the Canada Factor
4) Parts price vs. kit price
5) What parts duplicate front vs. rear. I need to keep spare parts on hand when competing.
6) I legally need a parking brake. Most companies don't offer it in the severity of brakes I need.
7) Stopping power vs size. I don't care about brake size, I want performance for my use.
8) I have zero preference in brand.
9) Manufacturer material selection and understanding it.


Re: chassis, why not buy a SWB chassis and have it lengthened, in the opposite way that people cut down LWB trucks? I bet it would be a heck of a lot cheaper than having a custom chassis built. Maybe I missed it in this thread, but besides rust what are the limiting factors of your current chassis? And would a new chassis force you out of vintage/classic race classes?

When I started looking into parts years ago and told the "suspension companies" my truck was a long bed, they would say I can't compete in a long bed, or "our stuff is for SWB trucks only". Some of the wheel base issues can be overcome, in the end it'll never be ideal - I don't care. As I've said before, I'm out to have fun with a truck I love and keep it a part of my life.

Most of the short wheel base chassis I've looked at just are not up to what I intend to throw at this truck. Like any product, companies build stuff to a price point, end use based on their customer base, or the company owner's preferences, etc. I've come to discover that whether you build a full custom frame or buy a "off the shelf" custom frame, the price is kinda the same. So I'm going to be specific to my use, my wheelbase, my truck.

Cheaper? Nothing is cheap when you are building a 1971 LWB truck that requires everything custom. I'd rather not talk about currency conversion again... it's upsetting.

The limitation of the stock chassis is that it takes time to make it work, and in the end it's a money-sucking-time-sucking compromise. Time in my life is very limited and expensive. A custom frame has better space, the lighter weight, the better control of just having a frame built is superior to the stock chassis (In my case, for my use). Let alone the bother of finding a stock LWB frame and the BS that comes with that. If you read the build thread of Hellboy, Summers and sons commented on how they wish they did a custom chassis instead of using the stock frame rails in their C10, for the reasons stated above. When you read about Rob's experience building the Silver Bullet, he states that his time and cost involved in that truck isn't much different that a frame laying bagged truck. Fab time, is fab time. After that it's engineering, knowledge and experience.

My truck has 205,000 miles on it. The first 70,000 as a farm truck and next 135,000 have been hard miles at the right foot of me.
For the sake of my safety, it's getting retired.

[kingcrunch]

Don't forget to mention the self-energizing characteristic of drum brakes:
The pads wedge themselves into the drum surface, which makes many (unloaded) rear-drum/front disc pickup trucks lock up the rear brakes early.

I swapped my full size 4x4s ('76 Dodge 3/4t longbed) rear brakes from drums to discs and it stops significantly better without locking the rear brakes.

[Ethereal]

Most of these points make sense, but especially heat dissipation away from the wheel cylinder. I also like the idea of easier maintenance. I think I'll go with some floating Camaro calipers on my 12-bolt: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=382633 as it seems like an easy upgrade.

[bovey]

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=382633

@ Ethereal; I wish I had have found this as a solution for my 12 bolt. Be sure to post about how it works.

On the subject of brakes, I've been receiving some questions via Facebook regarding brake parts. Everything I have done is well documented here, but there a couple of things came up that are worth sharing some more detail on.

1) Frame Unions
2) Brake Fluid

Yes, it's an annoying little detail. Frame Unions.

My Willwood flexible SS brake lines came with clip in frame unions, like these.
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They work just fine. BUT, do to the metal thickness of my frame the clip would not fit, and resulted in me grinding the frame down to get the clips to fit. It was a super fun job! Eventually, everything fit. However, in the rough situations I drive in, the clips rattle out, even when I basically have to hammer them in place.

Then someone said, use nut type frame unions. Well, I had no idea these existed. It just was not on my radar. They look like this, companies make them in a wide variety of colours as they are a AN type fitting.

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If I was to do it all over, I'd buy the line kit AND a set of these. It would make putting it together much, much easier. Now, I've never heard anyone else having a problem with the frame metal thickness being too thick, but mine was.

2) Brake Fluid.

I'm not super qualified to talk about this, but I want to raise some points for those who have not thought about it. Gotta keep everyone safe.

A) Manufactures talk about dry ratings and wet ratings. Wet is the one to pay attention too.
B) Technically, the fluid becomes "Wet" the moment you open the container and expose it to air.
C) Brake fluid has a crazy ability to absorb moisture
D) Do NOT leave your MC open, do NOT leave the brake fluid container open.
E) Open container shelf life is short. I throw my partial containers out, it's not worth the risk.
F) Check your fluid regularly in performance uses.
G) Flush it regularly depending on use. At minimum I flush in the spring, before and during big events with my current set-up.
G) Air and heat degrade brake fluid.

Again, if I've missed anything - please correct me. And please search this subject on the internet and understand it, not all brake fluid is created equally, you may need fluid specific to your brake manufacturer AND how you drive.

That is all. Happy building.

[bovey]

So, we hit the scales last night. I'm very fortunate that some people want to see this truck do better. A friend of Performance Improvement's lent them scales, so I could weight my truck. I've never even met the guy who owns these, but he was cool enough to drop them off for me to get this done.

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I read a few articles prior, Hot Rod Magazine has a simple article that explains who to do it. The concept of weighing your car is simple, but you must do a few things.

1) Floor needs to be level. I bought a 7" long level to check it. Hot Rod recommends a 10' long one.
2) Buy a box or 2 of cheap 12"x12" vinyl floor tiles, you can stack them to level that scales.
3) Vehicle must be empty, or containing what you want in it.
4) Tire air presssure should be equal.

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Handily, PI's location was a printing shop prior to them owning it, so the floors are level. So we did not need any tiles to get the 4 scales properly located. Remember to shake the vehicle so it settles on the scales, or that is what Proform wanted us to do with theirs.

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Aaaannnnnddd no surprise, the truck is heavy and has the typical 60/40 weight balance. Considering this thing has an Iron race block (heavy) mild steel cage AND fire system you'd think it would be heavier. On the bright side, it weights less than a 2015 Dodge Challenger R/T Scat Pack.

And I expected the weight. We here may be a little crazy for wanting to make trucks go fast, but I'm not in denial either! FYI - the scales are sensitive, I forgot to remove a box of lug nuts from the box and the corner weight changed by a pound. Not that a pound matters, but you get the point.

We finished the night by weighing Performance Improvement's Factory 5 Project 33, yes those are winter tires. It came in under 2400 lbs (5.3/TKO), perfect 50/50 weight distribution AND near perfect 25% on each corner, it was out by a whopping 13 lbs.

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Happy week-end all!

[Munssey]

And I would think that weight bias would be even worse with a short bed version. She's a heavy girl up front for sure (but purty)

[smbrouss70]

Did y'all weigh them with or without a driver? Or in the case of your truck, a driver and navigator?

[bovey]

And I would think that weight bias would be even worse with a short bed version. She's a heavy girl up front for sure (but purty)

Maybe, but not as much as you think. The only real difference is 12" of frame and box sheet metal. that and I believe some of the mass of the suspension is moved towards the middle of the truck. But yes, I need to get some weight of the nose. I'm planning on placing my battery and dry sump tank in the front of the box, eventually the engine will go back 10-12" and the body panels will go on a diet.



Did y'all weigh them with or without a driver? Or in the case of your truck, a driver and navigator?

Yup. Sure did.

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[GEARBOXGARAGE]

Excellent stuff Mark!

[Ethereal]

Are you running a rear sway bar?

[bovey]

Are you running a rear sway bar?

Oddly, no. I had a chase video from the POV car behind me on a very technical track. During my first round of refinements with Ron Sutton, he reviewed the footage and felt a rear sway bar was not needed with my set-up at that time. Changes are coming and the rear sway bar subject will be revisited.

[kingcrunch]

Hey Mark,

how's it going?
May i ask you to snap some pics of your brake cooling ducts when you find the time?

Thanks,
Alex

[bovey]

Hey Mark, how's it going?
May i ask you to snap some pics of your brake cooling ducts when you find the time?



Hey Alex, all is well. Crazy, but awesome. The truck is currently getting blown apart for upgrades.

As for you question, photos are below. I had to dig them up, so many hard drives, so little organization.

For the front cooling ducts, it's not easy to route for the 3" duct when the truck is so low with factory parts. In my case, I needed to feed air to the inside of the rotors, front and rotor. These rotors are designed to pull air from the centre to out.
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I simply made them out of the factory backing plates and some 3" exhaust tubing. With a vice, a hammer and holding your tongue right, you can shape them easily.
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The back was straight forward. Again, use the vice, hammer and tongue holding technique. The the gap to get air in these Wilwood's (when mounted) was small, so it took a little more test fitting and hammering to get them to shoot air in the right spot.
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This opening is actually a little big, but making it any smaller distorted the other end that attached the 3" ducting hose, which needs to be round.
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These ducts made a world of difference, my brakes felt great and lasted longer. So, I pushed harder, this sort of activity meant the end of my drilled rotors. They were replace with solid versions. Remember: friends don't let friend use drilled rotors.
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In the beginning I only had 3" holes in the bumper feeding the front ducts. I then mail boxed the front bumper, I have not had an over-heating issue since.
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I can't recall the exact temperature, but the front and rear brakes all kept good even temperatures after these modifications. The original plan was to put blowers on the rear, but it was never needed.

These take some time to make, and are inexpensive to make. The orange hi-temp ducting is the biggest expense.

NOTE: be mindful of were you run the orange ducting hose, it takes more space than you think. If it's it a problematic area you can always make a metal elbow or sleeve to protect it. I also was sure to make sure my brake lines did not rub, etc.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Good info as always Mark. Do you have a close up pic of the outside of the bumper?
Peter

[bovey]

Good info as always Mark. Do you have a close up pic of the outside of the bumper?
Peter

The bottom picture is a close- up the outside of the bumper. Maybe it's not clear.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Ha! I thought that was the inside... oops

[Centerforce]

That's an awesome brake cooler! Props for putting in the work!

[Dr G]

I had never heard of anyone using inline fans on brake cooler lines until the Sprint Cup race in Arizona just recently. Earnhardt forgot to turn his fans on, which I gather caused him all kinds of handling issues.

I can see where they might be useful in a draft, where there is little pressurized air hitting the front of the vehicle. Do you think they will make much difference in "open track" conditions at 80-120 mph?

Gustave

[bovey]

That's an awesome brake cooler! Props for putting in the work!

Thank you. I had to do something to make it work better. Technically, the boxes in the bumper should blend smoother into the hose inlets, but I do not possess the the fabrication talent for that. I imagine my design creates some negative turbulence, but my brakes work, so it's a win.


I had never heard of anyone using inline fans on brake cooler lines until the Sprint Cup race in Arizona just recently. Earnhardt forgot to turn his fans on, which I gather caused him all kinds of handling issues.

I can see where they might be useful in a draft, where there is little pressurized air hitting the front of the vehicle. Do you think they will make much difference in "open track" conditions at 80-120 mph?

Gustave

Blowers are common on short track and dirt track cars up here. I was arming myself with every possible option to keep brake temps under control. The rear rotors are .8" and do not have the mass to displace heat fast enough. I figured the blowers would be expensive, but when my parts guy said $18 each (CAN), I just bought them on the spot - just incase.

As for making a difference on "open track" conditions. I have no idea, none, I bet it depends on the car or truck. My truck is low, and has a lot of exhaust and suspension in the way underneath. Ideally you want the air ducts to scoop air, but that was impossible in my case. I bought these as a back-up plan, as I had no idea how much air was making it in the hose inlet. I still may install them, because the trucks life is not gonna get any easier.

During the Targa Newfoundland, we had to swap out all of the brake fluid on day 2 of a 5 day event. By day three we were pushing harder and harder, and every night we had to bleed out some the blackest brake fluid you have seen. Daily we replaced at least 2 or 3 bottles of EXP 600 fluid. Maybe the blowers would have helped control boiling the fluid, but I did not have time to install them during the event. Besides, we had a case of brake fluid that would get us to the end.

[Dr G]

Blowers are common on short track and dirt track cars up here. I was arming myself with every possible option to keep brake temps under control. The rear rotors are .8" and do not have the mass to displace heat fast enough. I figured the blowers would be expensive, but when my parts guy said $18 each (CAN), I just bought them on the spot - just incase.

As for making a difference on "open track" conditions. I have no idea, none, I bet it depends on the car or truck. My truck is low, and has a lot of exhaust and suspension in the way underneath. Ideally you want the air ducts to scoop air, but that was impossible in my case. I bought these as a back-up plan, as I had no idea how much air was making it in the hose inlet. I still may install them, because the trucks life is not gonna get any easier.

During the Targa Newfoundland, we had to swap out all of the brake fluid on day 2 of a 5 day event. By day three we were pushing harder and harder, and every night we had to bleed out some the blackest brake fluid you have seen. Daily we replaced at least 2 or 3 bottles of EXP 600 fluid. Maybe the blowers would have helped control boiling the fluid, but I did not have time to install them during the event. Besides, we had a case of brake fluid that would get us to the end.Sounds good. On a step side you could force air to the rear brakes from the leading edge of the front fenders. With a fleet side like yours that is not possible obviously. I'll have to go up in this thread to recall where you are drawing air from for the rear brakes. I remember that being mentioned. Gustave

[bovey]

I'll have to go up in this thread to recall where you are drawing air from for the rear brakes. I remember that being mentioned. Gustave

Don't bother, that information is incorrect. At one time, I was told these rear brakes pulled air to the centre, THEY DO NOT.

Air is pulled from the centre, out. Which is why duct placement, like pictured above, is paramount.

[kingcrunch]

Mark, thank you very much.
I am in the process of pricing out having the stock (heavy) metal bumper remade in carbon fiber (or glass fiber, if the first kills my wallet big time).
Part of that process is integrating an air dam with proper air ducts like these:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[hotrod56]

Mark, thank you very much.
I am in the process of pricing out having the stock (heavy) metal bumper remade in carbon fiber (or glass fiber, if the first kills my wallet big time).
Part of that process is integrating an air dam with proper air ducts like these:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Hey Kingcrunch: I would like to know more about what you find with the bumper. I am in the same situation. Need to shed weight.

[Dr G]

Don't bother, that information is incorrect. At one time, I was told these rear brakes pulled air to the centre, THEY DO NOT.

Air is pulled from the centre, out. Which is why duct placement, like pictured above, is paramount.Yes, I think most all (vented) brake rotors are designed for cooling air to be forced in to the center, then out the circumference. I've never seen one designed otherwise in any case. I was curious about the location from which you were drawing the air in to the ducting. I assume that you are not drawing in air for the rear brakes from the front spoiler area, but maybe I am wrong? I would think that a NACA type duct on the lower front side of the bed would be better. Or maybe a NACA duct flush with the the bottom of the chassis just ahead of the rear wheels?

Gustave

[kingcrunch]

@Hotrod56:
Don't want to highjack Marks thread but maybe it's interesting for him aswell:
I'll have a company (you could do it yourself if you have the skills) recreate the bumper by pulling a mold from the factory (heavy) metal bumper.
Using that mold they laminate a carbon fiber or glass fiber version of it.
In that process i want to laminate the lower lip way longer so i can bolt some kind of air dam to it. This air dam will be made from carbon or glass again with the ducts incorporated into it.

[bovey]

@Hotrod56:
Don't want to highjack Marks thread but maybe it's interesting for him aswell:
I'll have a company (you could do it yourself if you have the skills) recreate the bumper by pulling a mold from the factory (heavy) metal bumper.
Using that mold they laminate a carbon fiber or glass fiber version of it.
In that process i want to laminate the lower lip way longer so i can bolt some kind of air dam to it. This air dam will be made from carbon or glass again with the ducts incorporated into it.

Not highjacking at all. I'm building up the gusto to attempt moulding my front bumper as well, so your information would be welcomed. I've been following Love Fab's Pike's Peak build and really want to try it. FYI, if you have not been following that build, find it now.

One thing to keep in mind in the search for lower weight, I was told by a good source that low weight is obviously a good goal, but a better goal is a balanced set-up. And when it comes to weight-loss, loosing rotational weight or unsprung weight is better than just pulling out the sawsall and having at it. Now, this is an over simplification, but not all weight is created equal.

I was originally looking at my tailgate and shedding weight everywhere. But now I'm looking at loosing a 200 lbs of the nose and moving 200lbs back as a starting point. I think it's doable without too much drama, and it'll net a huge improvement in in my hunt for a 50/50 balance, but the truck will still be a tank overall.

[hotrod56]

Not highjacking at all. I'm building up the gusto to attempt moulding my front bumper as well, so your information would be welcomed. I've been following Love Fab's Pike's Peak build and really want to try it. FYI, if you have not been following that build, find it now.

One thing to keep in mind in the search for lower weight, I was told by a good source that low weight is obviously a good goal, but a better goal is a balanced set-up. And when it comes to weight-loss, loosing rotational weight or unsprung weight is better than just pulling out the sawsall and having at it. Now, this is an over simplification, but not all weight is created equal.

I was originally looking at my tailgate and shedding weight everywhere. But now I'm looking at loosing a 200 lbs of the nose and moving 200lbs back as a starting point. I think it's doable without too much drama, and it'll net a huge improvement in in my hunt for a 50/50 balance, but the truck will still be a tank overall.

Bovey: Where would be a good place to follow Love Fab's build?

Have you considered moving the radiator to the back of the truck?

[bovey]

Bovey: Where would be a good place to follow Love Fab's build?

Have you considered moving the radiator to the back of the truck?

You can follow Love Fab's Facebook page, or they have a separate page for both their Torquezillion and Enviate Hypercar Pike's Peak Builds. Fair warning, you can't un-see this stuff and it'll make you want to build crazy things. They have loads of photos of carbon fibre molds and typically lots of discussion on the process.

I was fortunate enough to run into Cody (fab/owner) at PRI and get a first hand look at the Eviate. Such and amazing build - way beyond what I'll ever do. He's a nice guy to boot.

125401

As for moving the radiator to the back. I see very little weight saving for that amount of work. By the time you run the lines, the extra coolant to fill the long lines, figure out the shrouding to get air through the rad, AND bigger fans to make it all work... no thanks.

Also, a rad in the bed severely cuts down on payload space for running to Home Depot!

I get why Baja guys or off-road guys move them, to keep them clean or out of harms way, rocks, etc. I'm looking at some options from C&R that are light and simple to deal with from a air extraction standpoint. This may not happen this year, as I'm sure I'll run out of $ long before I hit this year's goals.

[Dr G]

As for moving the radiator to the back. I see very little weight saving for that amount of work. By the time you run the lines, the extra coolant to fill the long lines, figure out the shrouding to get air through the rad, AND bigger fans to make it all work... no thanks.

Also, a rad in the bed severely cuts down on payload space for running to Home Depot!

Yes sir. 100% agree. A pro touring truck should stay a truck from a utility point of view. Otherwise you just have a very tall car right? (unless it's HellBoy in which case it's ok) :razz:

Gustave

[hotrod56]

You can follow Love Fab's Facebook page, or they have a separate page for both their Torquezillion and Enviate Hypercar Pike's Peak Builds. Fair warning, you can't un-see this stuff and it'll make you want to build crazy things. They have loads of photos of carbon fibre molds and typically lots of discussion on the process.

I was fortunate enough to run into Cody (fab/owner) at PRI and get a first hand look at the Eviate. Such and amazing build - way beyond what I'll ever do. He's a nice guy to boot.

125401

As for moving the radiator to the back. I see very little weight saving for that amount of work. By the time you run the lines, the extra coolant to fill the long lines, figure out the shrouding to get air through the rad, AND bigger fans to make it all work... no thanks.

Also, a rad in the bed severely cuts down on payload space for running to Home Depot!

I get why Baja guys or off-road guys move them, to keep them clean or out of harms way, rocks, etc. I'm looking at some options from C&R that are light and simple to deal with from a air extraction standpoint. This may not happen this year, as I'm sure I'll run out of $ long before I hit this year's goals.

I hear ya, but every time you move 30 pounds or so to the back or reduce it, accumulatively, it can make a big difference. Radiator, fiberglass fenders, eliminate the heavy bumper, etc. By the way, Loves Fab is great. Sure enjoyed looking at that. Take a look at this build. It is my all time favorite (unless someone shows me something more cool). Its 22 pages but so worth it even if you just look at the pics. http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=48116&highlight=rampage+camaro

[Ethereal]

You could do a fiberglass front clip to save a ton of weight. You can even get a full glass cab if you want to go crazy.

[bovey]

You could do a fiberglass front clip to save a ton of weight. You can even get a full glass cab if you want to go crazy.


Depends on the fibreglass, I've seen 'glass hoods that don't weight much less than a full steel hood. I may lighten the sheet metal, I'd love carbon. Munssey Speed makes some nice stuff. I wish someone would make a the later square hood, the early hood is better for performance, but I have a soft spot for the later brick design.

In other news, my adventure to Holley LS Fest is in print. Performance Improvements produces a magazine, they circulate about 36,000 of these. They are having a huge sale this week-end, stop in for a copy of the magazine and they also have some posters of the truck to give out.

125543

[hotrod56]

Hey Bovey

What does your truck weigh and what is the weight distribution?

[bovey]

What does your truck weigh and what is the weight distribution?

The weight of the truck is fully outlined in posts 276 and 279. But here is a summary:

125545

[Ethereal]

Hey Mark,

I'm looking forward to working with you on your new truck chassis which will be a killer for next year's event ... and helping improve your current truck to perform as best it can in this year's event.

For your current truck, I'm suggesting better shocks & brakes. To keep the cost in line, let's go with Wilwood D52 floating calipers up front in place of your cast iron GM calipers. Then, let's upgrade the pads from BP-10's to Wilwood's BP-20's. That will increase your braking force enough to make a significant improvement. See the chart below.

I feel your current braking torque is less than optimum, especially for the 295 tires you're planning to run. If your master cylinder needs replacing, you could go with option #1 and switch to a 7/8" M/C & leave the pedal ratio alone. You said your brake pedal is 14" long from pivot center to center of foot pad ... and the dimension to the M/C rod clevis is 2.5". That works out to a 5.6-1 pedal ratio.

If the M/C does NOT need replacing, save some money & simply increase the pedal ratio. If you drill a hole for the M/C rod at 2" from the pivot 91/2" above the current hole CL-to-CL) ... that will change the pedal ratio from 5.6-1 to 7-1 as shown in Option #2. That
would be my preference.


94363

I'm going through brake calculations right now and referencing yours -- what was the reasoning behind the wilwood calipers up front? The stock calipers have a bigger piston area and thus greater clamping force. Also the Hawk HP+ pads have a coefficient of friction of .55 -- not .41 at 700 degrees... I'm getting a brake force of 2800 lb vs 1600 for the stock front calipers in this configuration with a 7:1 pedal ratio. My calculations can be seen in this spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12D2jQFb14YjAa6S52A6NgR-9eFUb3EHbNgXZy4iPPhk/edit?usp=sharing).

[bovey]

I'm going through brake calculations right now and referencing yours -- what was the reasoning behind the wilwood calipers up front? The stock calipers have a bigger piston area and thus greater clamping force. Also the Hawk HP+ pads have a coefficient of friction of .55 -- not .41 at 700 degrees... I'm getting a brake force of 2800 lb vs 1600 for the stock front calipers in this configuration with a 7:1 pedal ratio. My calculations can be seen in this spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12D2jQFb14YjAa6S52A6NgR-9eFUb3EHbNgXZy4iPPhk/edit?usp=sharing).

Those are good questions, questions I don't really have answers for. But I will offer this.

1) I needed new callipers, so upgrading to Wilwood's D52 was easy.

2) The variance in numbers maybe because Ron accounts for actual not theoretical. I believe his numbers are based on tests he has done, or information someone has given him. Can't recall.

3) I was having huge heat problems stock calipers, going to aluminum helped.

4) I seem to recall the larger diameter of the stock caliper was a wash because they flexed under heavy braking. Add heat and thing get inconsistent.

I know Ron is crazy busy at the moment, but I'll shoot him a message and try to get him to chime in.

[Ethereal]

Those are good questions, questions I don't really have answers for. But I will offer this.

1) I needed new callipers, so upgrading to Wilwood's D52 was easy.

2) The variance in numbers maybe because Ron accounts for actual not theoretical. I believe his numbers are based on tests he has done, or information someone has given him. Can't recall.

3) I was having huge heat problems stock calipers, going to aluminum helped.

4) I seem to recall the larger diameter of the stock caliper was a wash because they flexed under heavy braking. Add heat and thing get inconsistent.

I know Ron is crazy busy at the moment, but I'll shoot him a message and try to get him to chime in.

I was looking at Howe calipers because they have slightly larger pistons, but then caught this quote on their product page:
"For higher heat applications we recommend a steel outer half to reduce high temperature flexing that occurs in all aluminum calipers."
I guess this means that the manufacture an outer half made of steel to use with the aluminum portion of the caliper, but I couldn't find it on their website.

http://www.howeracing.com/p-7708-howe-double-piston.aspx

For heat dissipation I'm looking at these cool heat sinks:
http://www.fourproducts.com/coolshim-technology.php
But at their price ($120 for two wheels) I might get creative and make my own. They look like a computer heatsink brazed to a metal shim.


How do you know when you have temp issues, does your brake fluid burn up or something?

[kingcrunch]

For a brake setup that does not have vented discs and is hard to upgrade to vented discs, this setup is kind of the last straw before going all out and converting to something expensive.
What vehicle are you working with? Does it have solid or vented discs?

I am asking because a vented disc is a much larger heatsink that the little sinks on the brake pads in that link.
With good brake ventilation that should give a much larger effect on brake cooling.

You will notice that your brake fluid is boiling when you suddenly loose the pedal.
When the fluid boils, air bubbles form and these collapse under the pressure of the pedal, the pedal sinks to the floor.
Fluid that has been cooked will do that again much faster after its initial boiling.

When it gets that hot, the brake pads will glaze aswell, leaving you with a lot less braking power.

[bovey]

I was looking at Howe calipers because they have slightly larger pistons, but then caught this quote on their product page:
"For higher heat applications we recommend a steel outer half to reduce high temperature flexing that occurs in all aluminum calipers."
I guess this means that the manufacture an outer half made of steel to use with the aluminum portion of the caliper, but I couldn't find it on their website.

For heat dissipation I'm looking at these cool heat sinks:

How do you know when you have temp issues, does your brake fluid burn up or something?

How do you plan on using the vehicle? Be mindful of using full on race calipers on the street. They don't always have the same piston seals and will not put up with the dirt and crap associated with a street car life.

In your quest for braking force, don't forget you can have too much. From my understanding, once you get into the 4000lbs of force arena, you need to have your pedal ratio optimized so you can modulate the brakes. To say that another way, you can have so much braking force that every time you hit the petal you risk locking up the wheels, or a lack of control of the force that is unsettles the vehicle. This is extreme, but possible.

Like kingcrunch said, you'll know when you have brake over heating issues. The brakes go soft first, then they go away. And after they cool off, you'll notice you need to pump the brakes going into corners to get them loaded up. Once you settle on a brake package find out what the rotor temp should be and buy a heat gun to keep tabs on things.

The brake cooler attachment is neat. Find out how much they weigh. And not sure what your planning to do with the vehicle, but keep in mind many forms of heavy duty motorsport keep their brakes temps under control with ducting.

[Ethereal]

I'm going to start with autocrossing my C-20 longbed (with vented discs @kingcrunch) and see where I go from there... I'll def. add some ducting and plan on adding a bunch of sensors for rotor, caliper, and wheel temps etc to chart those things during runs. I'm really using this thread as a baseline for my build since it's obvious that a lot of though and effort has already been put into your decisions :) No need to start from scratch.

I plan to start with stock front calipers and the 97 camaro rears to get a baseline and adjust as necessary. I believe that I'll generate a lot less heat doing autox that you have experienced and I might be ok with these components from a heat standpoint.

I certainly don't understand brake modulation yet but what you're saying about overbraking makes sense. My thought is that pedal ratio is simple to adjust, so I'm trying to design my brakes with as much stopping power as possible and will reduce that via pedal ratio if necessary.

[Josh@Ridetech]

Always nice to see the updates Mark!

[bovey]

Always nice to see the updates Mark!

Thank you. I'm long overdue for a big update. Work has been crazy, I'll be back soon. Big changes are in the works.

[bovey]

It surprising how much time is takes to lock down a plan. Everything is constantly changing.


From the first post of this build, it was my intention to do a Version 1 and Version 2, Ver. 2.0 being a full chassis, etc., etc. Everything was on track, I had worked through the plan with Ron Sutton, I had met a number of builders, I had saved up money. But then the Canadian dollar dropped. At its depth, it cost me $1.47 to buy $1 USD. Needless to say, money conversion broke my budget.

So, instead of Targa Truck Ver 2.0 – I humbly present Targa Truck Ver 1.47 – thank you global economy.

FWIW, the dollar has rebounded to a better place, but this ship has sailed, sadly the chassis has to wait.

Not being able to do the chassis complicated things a lot. My upgrades are intended to make the truck safer, and more reliable. There will be some performance upgrades as a result of these changes, but the benefits of Ver. 1.47 will not be fully realized until Ver. 2.0 happens.

PLEASE KEEP IN MIND, some of this might seem weird. Race spindles, stock a-arms - stuff like that. This is a long term project and I'm working towards a complete vision of the truck, one that I can't complete in one hit.

SUSPENSION/ BRAKES / SAFETY


Ron Sutton and I have had a plan for the truck for a while, but the trigger has been pulled, Ron called a couple of days ago to let me know the following has been shipped:

1) 1 set of RSRT Track Star spindles.
2) Speedway Engineering 9” Grand National Floater w/ Detroit locker and 4:11s
3) Wilwood Aerolite Calipers – 6 piston front, 4 piston rear
4) 13.06” x 12.5 Wilwood Spec 37 rotors x 4
5) 2 of super cool adjustable pan hard bar mounts

126885


Following closely behind are a new set of Forgeline GZ3R wheels. This was a painful purchase. I had bought my first set of wheels with the intension of drilling them out for 5/8” studs, the manufacturer said “No problem”…

Actually, it is a problem. There is not enough meat on wheel design to drill them out. Every garage needs expensive wall are – right???? Sigh.

As usual, trying to save money, cost me money. Oh well, Forgelines are sexy tho. FYI - running a custom spindles allows for a true square set-up with some serious depth on the wheels.

126884


ENGINE


My dad came down for a week-end and we pulled the engine out, it was a great day. The engine is going down to my friends at SDPC (Texas) for a rebuild. Sadly, that has been delayed because I need an approval letter from the EPA to ship an GM LS engine back to it home country of the USA. Seriously.

126879

The engine is going to get an overhaul, maybe a new set of pistons, a new cam profile as the transmission and gearing are changing, more on this below. Nothing is really wrong with it; this is just preventative maintenance. Besides, it’s lived some hard, HARD miles.

I was at PRI this year and it was amazing opportunity to inspect parts and meet the companies/people behind them. The truck is going dry sump so I need to source the front drive and decide on a dry sump supplier.

One of the company’s I meet with was Aviaid, they make a killer product and were beyond helpful with my questions, we have designed a set-up for the truck including a 3-port pump and a 3 gallon tank in the bed. (Not photographed)

126881

My current front drive is a Wegner (WAK-11)street set-up, and they now make a race version, so I just need to buy a few parts to complete the upgrade to accept the additional oil pump.

My dream plan is to go to an electric water pump. Davis Craig has a really neat set-up; it’s just a matter of cost. Not that it’s expensive, but I have a budget.

126882

TRANSMISSION

I was going to stick with my current T56, it’s a wide ratio Magnum. However, a race team reached out to me that has proper endurance race quality Tranzilla t56 they’d like to get rid of, so I’m figuring that out right now. It’s a killer close-ratio version, with a 2:29 first gear, Carbon Synchros… it is sexy stuff. They also have some spare twin disc GS Giken clutches. I need a cold shower.

126883

While this is outside the budget, it’s a great opportunity that I doubt will happen again, so I pounced on it. This was an important purchase to lock down now as it affects the both the engine and 9” gearing. While the cam selection is not decided, we have locked down on 4:11s for the final gear., instead of the 4:30 I was going to use with my wide ratio t56.

WEIGHT

The big experiment is going the be weight. The truck is heavy, corner balance is decent, but I’m going to further perfect the balance and start to move weight back to achieve better a better bias front-to-back.

This amount of work is more than the talent I have, let alone space and time. I’ve found a couple race shops to help redo the fire wall, replacing the massive OEM heater system with a compact light unit, put a pedal box in, and move the engine back 10-12 inches.

Most of the work is mundane, pinion angle… stuff like that. We do need to fabricate a pan hard bar and bracket, but that is nothing crazy. The pan-hard bar height and location will be set once we figure out the spring rates of my current springs, I just need to find someone to measure them.

Here are a couple of idea on the PHB, space is more limited that expected.
126886


WIRING

My truck is long overdue for a rewire job. My original plan was to use a traditional wiring system, fuse panel, relays, etc, etc. But after seeing some demos of PCMs, I’m going that way. Fortunately, one of the people I’ve met along the way is a Motec dealer so we are currently making plans. PCMs and their abilities are mind boggling.

There are loads of details to each thing mentioned above. I’ll dive into that on a part-by-part basis as this juggernaut moves forward. But for now, it’s just a waiting game. Getting stuff out of the USA and into the USA is never easy, let alone the paperwork, but that is another story.

Thanks for following along.

[Dr G]

This is awesome. Can't wait to read more. I love the Forgeline GZ3R wheels. What size did you get?

Gustave

[bovey]

This is awesome. Can't wait to read more. I love the Forgeline GZ3R wheels. What size did you get?

I almost went with the more traditional GW3R, but really liked more, let's call it elegant design of of the GZ3R.

Sadly, they are only 18" x 10", my current chassis set-up will not allow for more width on the front and I want a square set-up with same bs all the way around.

[Dr G]

I almost went with the more traditional GW3R, but really liked more, let's call it elegant design of of the GZ3R.

Sadly, they are only 18" x 10", my current chassis set-up will not allow for more width on the front and I want a square set-up with same bs all the way around.

I'm with you on the square set up. 10" wide is not bad. If you had your druthers would you go 11" or 12" in width?

I like the GW3R style also. To me it looks a lot like the classic BBS wheel that has been on Porsches and BMWs for many years. I think for an American made truck I prefer the GZ3R you ultimately chose.

I note you're doing a full floater. How do folks implement a parking brake with those?

Gustave

[bovey]

I'm with you on the square set up. 10" wide is not bad. If you had your druthers would you go 11" or 12" in width?

I note you're doing a full floater. How do folks implement a parking brake with those?

Going 13" when the time finally comes. Again, square set-up with 335s. I'm stuffing every inch of tire I can under this thing.

As for parking brakes. I have found a product. Now I just need to get it into the country. More soon.

Also, my Ron Sutton Race Technology shipment arrived! SO AWESOME. I'm going to at least look at the crate tomorrow, not sure if I'll have time to open it until Monday/Tuesday.

[Ethereal]

For the panhard, why not a combo of your options 2 and 3? mount the left side as low as possible and the right side as high as possible for the closest to level bar that you can get in order to minimize axle movement.

[Ron Sutton]

I'm with you on the square set up. 10" wide is not bad. If you had your druthers would you go 11" or 12" in width?

I like the GW3R style also. To me it looks a lot like the classic BBS wheel that has been on Porsches and BMWs for many years. I think for an American made truck I prefer the GZ3R you ultimately chose.

I note you're doing a full floater. How do folks implement a parking brake with those?

Gustave

Hey Gustave,

On the floater rear end, if we go with Speedway Engineering's "Mod-Lite" floater with steel hubs, we have 2 brake kits options with a parking brake. One from Wilwood with 12.88" x .81" rotors & Superlite calipers ... available now. The second one, from StopTech that I designed utilizing a 14" x 1.25" Aero-Rotor & ST40 Calipers will be available in July.

But I'd say 2/3 of my clients going with floater rear ends do not run a traditional parking brake. They want to avoid the extra weight out on the end of the axle. So most of them put a line lock solenoid (like drag racers use) in either the front or rear brake line. Then when they want to warm up their car, they fire it up in neutral, put on a little brake pressure, hit the toggle switch (instead of a momentary switch) and lock one set of brakes. Very simple, light & low cost.

:cheers:

[Ron Sutton]

For the panhard, why not a combo of your options 2 and 3? mount the left side as low as possible and the right side as high as possible for the closest to level bar that you can get in order to minimize axle movement.

Just to clarify ... the PHB will be level-ish. The drawing just shows range.


:cheers:

[andrewb70]

https://www.pro-touring.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=126884&d=1462539669

I approve of the wheel color!

Andrew

[Dr G]

Going 13" when the time finally comes. Again, square set-up with 335s. I'm stuffing every inch of tire I can under this thing.

Wow! 13's! Go big or go home. I like it. Gustave

[Dr G]

Hey Gustave,

On the floater rear end, if we go with Speedway Engineering's "Mod-Lite" floater with steel hubs, we have 2 brake kits options with a parking brake. One from Wilwood with 12.88" x .81" rotors & Superlite calipers ... available now. The second one, from StopTech that I designed utilizing a 14" x 1.25" Aero-Rotor & ST40 Calipers will be available in July.

But I'd say 2/3 of my clients going with floater rear ends do not run a traditional parking brake. They want to avoid the extra weight out on the end of the axle. So most of them put a line lock solenoid (like drag racers use) in either the front or rear brake line. Then when they want to warm up their car, they fire it up in neutral, put on a little brake pressure, hit the toggle switch (instead of a momentary switch) and lock one set of brakes. Very simple, light & low cost.

:cheers:



Thanks for the response Ron-Man. A line lock was actually something I thought of doing on my current non-floater setup. Just because I was having trouble getting my current internal drum parking brake setup to work correctly. It turns out all my problems were actually due to my having attached the parking brake cable guides to the truck arms just a little too tightly causing a bit of bind where the cables leave the arms and head to the rear hubs. Once I removed the rear-most cable guide attachment point, voila, now they work fine. Lesson learned for me.

The drifting guys use a lever to actuate the rear brakes similar to what rally guys have been using for years. Just a master cylinder with a parking brake lever to actuate it, which is plumbed into the rear brake circuit. Some of these can be had with a ratcheting mechanism to also act as a parking brake. For a while a thought of doing this, but did not like the idea of having a whole extra master cylinder as part of my rear brake circuit. Though it does not seem to hurt the WRC guys any.

I actually run an automatic transmission. And judging by how few daily drivers folks actually even bother with the parking brake with autos, maybe the whole thing is a moot point! I could just stick it in Park and be done with it like my in-laws. But no, sorry, I cannot bring myself to do that.

I ordered a couple of Wilwood's baby calipers intended for parking brake use and they are pretty heavy. I was just inspecting them to see how they work and if I could modify them for my 1.1" thick rotors. I think I like the line lock idea better. Though I would probably prefer a mechanical line lock for street use where the parking brake might be left one for long periods of time.

Gustave

[kingcrunch]

A working parking brake is mandatory in Germany for example. Hydraulic parking brakes are not allowed, gots to be mechanical (can be electrically actuated though!).
I'll be using a '02-10 Ram 1500 rear axle just because it comes with 14" brakes AND a parking brake suitable for my vehicles weight (because the parking brake has to be able to actually hold the vehicle).

[bovey]

My parts arrived from Ron Sutton Race Technology. Easily one of my best box openings of my car building life. This doesn't trump the time I found a rust free souther door under the Christmas tree from my dad, but this rocks.

Love Ron's sticker. So true.

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This is not everything, just a few photos of the major components. I'll cover other stuff off as the truck gets built.

Ron is a big fan of Wilwood. I did look at other brands, but people who are far faster than I am use these and stadium trucks use a smaller version, so I went for it. When it comes to bang-for-the-buck, it's hard to beat the Spec 37 rotors and Areolite callipers. 6 Piston front, 4 piston rear. 13.06" x 1.25" rotors on all four corners.

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My main concern with this upgrade is safety, my second is trying to do changes that will live on when I can build the full-on Ver 2.0 of the Targa Truck. These are Ron's Track Star spindles, if you ever order a set you have full control of many, many variables. These worked in my favour as you can adjust the Lower Ball Joint to Wheel Mounting Surface distance. This will give me a better scrub radius later in life, but for know it allows be to run a true square set-up with my wheel/tire combo. The biggest bonus is these are tough, very tough.
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A proper 9" floater, this is a Speedway Engineering Grand National. I had a 3rd member built as well with 4:11s and a Detroit Locker. Beyond awesome, my 12 bolt has been a thorn for too long. This is a welcome change.

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With these changes comes another personal project. I met a fellow car freak and he is a director. We spoke about doing a little series on the truck and our schedules finally allowed for it. So we started filming last week, and the fine people at Performance Improvements are letting us shoot it in their warehouse. No, this is not going to be Street Outlaws, but I'll do my best to make it fun, ideally interesting and there'll be some good info. We have a plan, but it's boil down to opportunity and my available funds. Episode 1 will be an overview of this pile of parts.

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The Forgelines have arrived as well. And they are sexier than expected. More photos to come.

Take care everyone.

[Ryans C10]

I'm having some serious part envy right now.
Quick question, I've been referencing the chart on page 1 to set up the brakes on my truck. Is all that info assuming no brake booster? I was going to run hydroboost on mine but I dont see a booster on your truck in the pics.
Thanks!

[Ethereal]

I'm having some serious part envy right now.
Quick question, I've been referencing the chart on page 1 to set up the brakes on my truck. Is all that info assuming no brake booster? I was going to run hydroboost on mine but I dont see a booster on your truck in the pics.
Thanks!

That's with no booster -- you can make a copy of a similar spreadsheet I put together if you'd like, and if you were to use a booster this would go in the "assist" cell.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12D2jQFb14YjAa6S52A6NgR-9eFUb3EHbNgXZy4iPPhk/edit?usp=sharing

[Ryans C10]

That's with no booster -- you can make a copy of a similar spreadsheet I put together if you'd like, and if you were to use a booster this would go in the "assist" cell.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12D2jQFb14YjAa6S52A6NgR-9eFUb3EHbNgXZy4iPPhk/edit?usp=sharing

Nice! Thanks man!:cool:

[kingcrunch]

Holy effing cow! I know the feeling of unboxing stuff like that and it's awesomer than awesome.
Can't wait to see the episodes!

[SSLance]

Wow! Nice box o parts you got there...

[GEARBOXGARAGE]

Looking great Mr. Bovey!! Definitely keeping an eye on your progress, I just started working with Ron this week for my C10 as well, Tech Service #41! Although I'm going more of the Autocross route, as apposed to the road rally stuff like yours. Good luck on the progress!

[bovey]

https://www.pro-touring.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=126884&d=1462539669

I approve of the wheel color! Andrew


Thanks Andrew. Here are a few photos of the wheels. They arrived and are wonderful.
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They are 18x10s - for now.

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I was going to go exposed hardware, but after speaking to Forgeline I went with hidden.

Forgeline said there is no difference is strength, as they use helicoil inserts for the blind applications. However, the exposed hardware applications are 1/2 lb heavier due to the extra hardware (nuts) required. And given what centrifugal force does to weight, I went hidden, besides I like the look better. My main concern was performance, but this seems to be the best answer for that as well.

It should be noted that Forgeline was very nice to deal with. I order the wheels through Ron Sutton Race Technology, as Ron was doing all the math to make sure everything would fit. However, I did not want to drive Ron crazy with a questioning when it came to finishes, etc - so I went direct to Forgeline. They were very courteous and helpful. The order was completed quickly and shipped efficiently. This was not the experience I had with my first set of custom wheels.


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A quick mock-up because I could not resist.

Ethereal, thanks for answering Ryans C10 question. You are correct, I run manual brakes as I prefer the feel.

kingcrunch, SSLance and GEARBOXGARAGE - thanks for the comments. Exciting times. I've needed to make these changes and am happy to finally be doing so. Hope everyone enjoys the ride and my plan is to provide some info that plagued me, so others can avoid my mistakes.

[kingcrunch]

I may need your notes/info on the cage for my vehicles concept (which i am writing for technical authorities, to go through every detail of the build before i put it together).
Do you have any stuff you could send me?

I am so damn envious of the endless choice of wheels you guys have. I am limited to stuff that actually has been approved and certified road legal...

[bovey]

I may need your notes/info on the cage for my vehicles concept (which i am writing for technical authorities, to go through every detail of the build before i put it together). Do you have any stuff you could send me? I am so damn envious of the endless choice of wheels you guys have. I am limited to stuff that actually has been approved and certified road legal...

Yes, I do. I have my concept drawings somewhere. They were in my my office, but it had to be changed over to a baby room, my wife an I had twins over the week-end. I have to organize some stuff today, I'll try to find them, so long and mom and the new babes are cool. Be careful of what you see on the internet, there is a lot of "roll cages because they are cool". I've discovered that even mine has a few flaws. Building a roll cage is about deciding on the compromises that you have to make and make sure the fabricator is an accomplished welder. This is not the project to learn to weld. Be safe. Be fast.

One thing, watch your overall weight. If you get too close to 4000lbs, some sanctioning bodies want .120" wall 2" tubing - it'll add a crap load of weight and really compromise the amount of space. I made a strong case to go 1.75" .120 wall and they accepted it due to the cockpit safety concerns I had as it was a truck.

Also, the rear down bars should hit the frame just behind the rear axel.

Again, I'll find my drawings and give you some more info.

As for the wheels, given how fast you can drive in Germany, legally. I bet the OEM stuff is amazing.

[kingcrunch]

Congrats on the twins!

No need to hurry on the cage stuff.

[bovey]

As I've ventured my way through this update, it's tossed a couple of curve balls at me.

1) Expensive US$. Solved that by changing plans. Fine.

2) EPA. It took me nearly 3 months extra to get my engine into the USA to get the rebuild started. This was unexpected.

You can't gain 3 months back in a season this short. So, I've decided to do some extra things. While doing the firewall, I have committed to doing a pedal box, changing the heating system, and rewiring the truck. The pedal box is sorted, I bought a Tilton unit and once all the parts are here, I'll share that experience.

The final extra thing on the list was a steering column. A real deal racing safety column by a company called Woodward. They make the the columns for Sprint Cup and the Australian V8 Supercars.

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These are collapsable.
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However, they don't have provision for turn signals. I have an idea, but we'll cross this bridge later.

Woodward has spec drawings and pdfs to help you figure out the length, but I did manage to find a few loop holes that required me to call the tech line 3 times. Thankfully, they are very nice and super helpful.

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First, let talk seating position. With your seat adjusted PROPERLY (upright, you're not a Gangsta), you should be able to push on the floor just behind your pedal/clutch. With your harness or seatbelt on, AND YOUR shoulder blade NOT LIFTING from the seat - your wrist should rest on the top of your steering wheel. Simple enough - right? I my case the truck was close, I've added 1.5" to the length of my column to get the wrist thing right.

I stole this from google to illustrate the seating thing. FYI - good driving posture will make you a better driver.

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There was the trick to ordering the column that caused me to measure a dozen times. When you order a Woodward column you make a part number out of two different lists, the shaft and the sleeve. And if you use your stock column as a reference point, you may end up with a unit that is too long and not rigid enough.

A stock column sticks through the firewall about 11-ish inches. A Woodward column should just poke through your firewall enough to attach the u-joint to create the linkage to run to your rack or steering box. Again, this is an important detail.

In my case, here is the math (you must do your own math as you and your truck are different than me):

Current Truck Measurements:
29.5” -- firewall to SWMS
PLUS 1.5” to place the wheel (MINUS 0.5” for spacer adjustment)
26.5” -- firewall to steering box.
11” -- firewall to end of stock column (2 or less” ideal-ish - Woodward confirmed)
17” -- lower rollbar to the SWMS


29.5" (current firewall to SWMS) + 1" (move SW to better location) + 2" (shaft poking through firewall) = 32.5” Ideal

Using Woodward's instructions:
32.5” - 1” (boot cuff) - 2.38” (QR) -.3 (6 bolt) = 28.82”

Figure out Shaft option 1
28.82”- 14” (SL20 shaft) = 14.82” ----- 15.75” sleeve

Figure out Shaft option 2
28.82”- 11” (SL17 shaft) = 17.82” ----- 17.75” sleeve

Because I had 2 options, I called the tech line the 3rd time... And they had a great answer, when you have 2 options ALWAYS choose the longer sleeve, the net result will be a sturdier steering column.

So Option 2 wins.

Math reversed to double check:
17.75 (sleeve) + 2.38 (QR) + 1 (boot cuff) + 11 (SL17 shaft) +.3 (6 bolt) = 32.43”

FWIW my final order was a SCA700 - 1775 - SL17

And one thing on the QR hubs, if you are running in anything FIA, you must run a YELLOW ring version to past tech. FIA sanctions my events here is Canada, but I've never seen them get this fussy with us grass roots guys. I ordered a yellow one anyway.

At this time, it's ordered through Performance Improvements, turns out they can get me anything, I honestly had not idea - this makes life easier. When it arrives, I'll post photos.

In closing, Happy Father's Day. I did a photo shoot with my kids today, because this will be the only time in my life I'll have twins that fit in Forgelines. Or at least I hope...

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One last thing, Targa Truck officially has an Instagram page.

peace.

[smbrouss70]

Great pic! My wife even thinks it is cute, and she HATES seeing truck parts!

[RobNoLimit]

Lookin awesome Mark. For turn sigs, check into the wiring modules that custom Harley builders use. They can be set up with a momentary push button (push-on/push-off) or a momentary push button with a timer (push-on/timer-off). They are designed for low load L.E.D. lighting and are very small.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Congratulations on the twins mark! Nice pic too!

[Guyt699]

Awesome pic and congrats!

[Rockett]

Wow!! Congrats on the twins!! I have been following along and have missed the last few days, man... Lots going on! Looking amazing!!!

[Centerforce]

It seems like your truck AND family are coming along nicely! The Forgelines look amazing, and we cant wait to see them mounted. What did the weight on them come out to?

[bovey]

Thank you everyone for the kind comments on the twins. Like twin turbos, they are very cool.


Lookin awesome Mark. For turn sigs, check into the wiring modules that custom Harley builders use. They can be set up with a momentary push button (push-on/push-off) or a momentary push button with a timer (push-on/timer-off). They are designed for low load L.E.D. lighting and are very small.

Thanks Rob! That looks like a simple solution and options are handy, because things never seem to work out as planned. When I rewire the truck, I'm going with a Motec PDM, and those systems offer some good options too. I may still try to keep the turn signal on the column, i've been dabbling in 3D design and might, MIGHT make something.


It seems like your truck AND family are coming along nicely! The Forgelines look amazing, and we cant wait to see them mounted. What did the weight on them come out to?

Thanks, i'll post photos when they get mounted. As for weight, i plopped one on a nitrous scale and they came in at 25.2 lbs.

128463

[Dr G]

First, let talk seating position. With your seat adjusted PROPERLY (upright, you're not a Gangsta), you should be able to push on the floor just behind your pedal/clutch. With your harness or seatbelt on, AND YOUR shoulder blade NOT LIFTING from the seat - your wrist should rest on the top of your steering wheel. Simple enough - right? I my case the truck was close, I've added 1.5" to the length of my column to get the wrist thing right.

I stole this from google to illustrate the seating thing. FYI - good driving posture will make you a better driver.

128368



You discuss the fore-aft position of the steering wheel.

What are your thoughts regarding (1) the height, and (2) the angle of the steering wheel.

Since the column is non-tilt it may have to exit the firewall pretty high up to prevent the angle from being "bus-like" no?

Gustave

[bovey]

You discuss the fore-aft position of the steering wheel.

What are your thoughts regarding (1) the height, and (2) the angle of the steering wheel.

Since the column is non-tilt it may have to exit the firewall pretty high up to prevent the angle from being "bus-like" no?

Gustave

I do plan on re-visiting a some "office" ergonomics when the time comes. For my stock column height, my seating position was a little low. However, I liked to low seat position as it kept my head further away from the roof of the truck. Technically, it helps with cg too, but I'm not pretending for a second that it really affected the truck's handling given the stock nature of the chassis. #keepingitreal

I need to double check seating position; from what I recall, ideal seating position places your chin roughly at the top edge of the steering wheel. As mentioned above, I'm lower than that but I like it. Why? Because I'm currently stuck with a 14:1 steering box and every so often my hands get lost and having the wheel more in my visual line seems to help. NOTE: This only happens on tight AutoX runs.

Once I get the column and a few things mocked up I'll figure out if the new Woodward column is moving down on the dash mount or up on the firewall. It's not as bad as you think, these trucks don't drive like buses. Here's an old photo that gives you an idea of the current angle, BUT the steering wheel is bent from my pre-harness-race-seat days.

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More soon. Waiting on a couple of oddball parts. Oh, the delays...

[Josh@Ridetech]

Thank you everyone for the kind comments on the twins. Like twin turbos, they are very cool.



Thanks Rob! That looks like a simple solution and options are handy, because things never seem to work out as planned. When I rewire the truck, I'm going with a Motec PDM, and those systems offer some good options too. I may still try to keep the turn signal on the column, i've been dabbling in 3D design and might, MIGHT make something.



Thanks, i'll post photos when they get mounted. As for weight, i plopped one on a nitrous scale and they came in at 25.2 lbs.

128463

Oooooh. Nice choice!!

[Dr G]

I do plan on re-visiting a some "office" ergonomics when the time comes. For my stock column height, my seating position was a little low. However, I liked to low seat position as it kept my head further away from the roof of the truck. Technically, it helps with cg too, but I'm not pretending for a second that it really affected the truck's handling given the stock nature of the chassis. #keepingitreal

I agree with you on sitting low. I like to sit as low as I can, in any vehicle really. The two limits on how low I can sit generally, are how far my feet can extend out, and whether I can still see over the dash. Sitting up high in my truck makes me feel like I'm rowing a canoe while sitting on a bar stool!



I need to double check seating position; from what I recall, ideal seating position places your chin roughly at the top edge of the steering wheel. As mentioned above, I'm lower than that but I like it. Why? Because I'm currently stuck with a 14:1 steering box and every so often my hands get lost and having the wheel more in my visual line seems to help. NOTE: This only happens on tight AutoX runs.


For me personally I like my steering wheel high and close, and as vertical as I can get it. That's just me. Any car or truck I get in that is the first thing I do: shove the seat all the way down, and shove the steering wheel all the way up and out (I'm 5'11").

Additionally, over the last 15 years or so I've spent time studying the way professional race car drivers set up their cockpits (steering wheel, shifters, pedals). I maintained a website back in the early-mid 2000's for performance BMW's and I had a section dedicated to cockpit ergonomics. Most of the pictures came from "Racecar Engineering" and "Race Tech" magazines (both from England) and focused on F1, World Endurance, DTM, Touring Cars and World Rally. These drivers all had their steering wheels positioned so that the center of the wheel was somewhere between their sternum and their collarbone, and almost vertical. It was also located pretty close to the body, such that with their hands at 3 and 9 o'clock the elbows were at their sides. Sprint Cup is similar except their steering wheels are large so they mount them a bit lower so that they can still see. A thread is worthless without pics so:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2016/06/YM_2005_BTCC1-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2016/06/driving_position1-1.jpg

So that's my two cents about steering wheel position. Most people think I'm nuts when I ramble on about this stuff. But I figure It's worthwhile to pay attention to driver's who are paid millions to do what they do, and maybe learn something from it. Just as someone would pay attention to a pro golfer's swing and try to emulate it.




Once I get the column and a few things mocked up I'll figure out if the new Woodward column is moving down on the dash mount or up on the firewall. It's not as bad as you think, these trucks don't drive like buses. Here's an old photo that gives you an idea of the current angle, BUT the steering wheel is bent from my pre-harness-race-seat days.

128554


OK, I'm obviously not familiar with your class of truck. That picture shows exactly what I would like to do on my F100, have the steering column go right through the bottom part of the dash and on out through the firewall. Right now I have it shoved up against the bottom of the dash. But that is already I large change when you take into account that in stock configuration F100's have the steering column exiting the cab somewhere between your ankles! And that does indeed lead to a "bus-like" steering wheel configuration, as can be see on countless hot-rodded F100's around the country. Fine for just tooling around, but not conducive to performance style driving.

Gustave

[bovey]

Additionally, over the last 15 years or so I've spent time studying the way professional race car drivers set up their cockpits (steering wheel, shifters, pedals). I maintained a website back in the early-mid 2000's for performance BMW's and I had a section dedicated to cockpit ergonomics. Most of the pictures came from "Racecar Engineering" and "Race Tech" magazines (both from England) and focused on F1, World Endurance, DTM, Touring Cars and World Rally. These drivers all had their steering wheels positioned so that the center of the wheel was somewhere between their sternum and their collarbone, and almost vertical. It was also located pretty close to the body, such that with their hands at 3 and 9 o'clock the elbows were at their sides. Sprint Cup is similar except their steering wheels are large so they mount them a bit lower so that they can still see. A thread is worthless without pics so:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2016/06/YM_2005_BTCC1-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2016/06/driving_position1-1.jpg

Gustave

I appreciate your ramblings. Bring it on. I was reading about endurance, NASCAR, etc type ergonomics with the steering wheel closer as you mentioned. They do it for a reason - driver fatigue. With the steering wheel closer to the body, in some NASCAR set-ups they can almost rest their entire forearm on the wheel?!?! They created this driving position so the driver can engage core muscle groups instead of using their arms. Interesting stuff.

Thanks for the constructive reply.

[bovey]

Some progress.

Started tearing out everything, I'll bring back what is needed, as needed. The wiring will all be replaced, so it's gone too. I'm taking out things that I put in when I was 18. The ground wire that almost delayed my 1997 Hot Rod Power Tour trip? That sucker was tight, I must have been angry when I finally figured that was the problem many moons ago...

I am weighing things as I take them off, I'll report back with photos and numbers soon.

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Part of the thinking of stripping it down bare is trying to get the weight down. Based on the pre-build numbers, I need to move or loose 400 lbs off the front. The truck will still be heavy, but at least it will be balanced. You gotta start somewhere.

In other news, the new transmission has landed. A full-on IMSA prepared Tranzilla t56, this one comes from a Pratte and Miller Z28R. Close-ratio, carbon fiber synchros, tougher gears, rated at 1200 HP / 1000 ft/lbs. Sexy. Sexy. Sexy. To put it mildly, I'm excited about this. A full blue printed rebuild is included with the purchase, I have this for mock-up.
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I am very fortunate that a local race team has been following my progress and wants to help out, they also gave me some shifters to try for fitment. I believe the stock one is a GM GTO piece. They have moved on from the Z28Rs, so they have some spare stuff lying around that is useless to them.
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They also had this spare rad and oil cooler, it's a NASCAR piece, and would you believe is almost the identical size of a stock C10 rad? It's more "direct fit" than the last "direct fit" aluminum rad I bought. Even my twin Spal fan set-up fits better.
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I doubt the rad is going in the stock location. I also need to figure out if this rad is going to give me trouble later on. It's sexy and it's a wonderful addition to my build and plans, but if I ever need to replace it new... I may need mortgage my house. Ex-race car parts are a great value, but new they make my wallet wince.

[andrewb70]

Nice progress Mark!

Will you be at LS Fest (not with the truck but for fun...)?

Andrew

[bovey]

Nice progress Mark!

Will you be at LS Fest (not with the truck but for fun...)?

Andrew


I don't know. I've thought about it. The gang as SDPC has asked me to come down for a visit too. I'm also trying to get down to another of Ron's workshops as well... Also looking at driving schools in the US, as I need to lock down some seat time while the truck is out of commission.

Lots to sort out. I had a pile of fun last year.

[andrewb70]

I don't know. I've thought about it. The gang as SDPC has asked me to come down for a visit too. I'm also trying to get down to another of Ron's workshops as well... Also looking at driving schools in the US, as I need to lock down some seat time while the truck is out of commission.

Lots to sort out. I had a pile of fun last year.

Make the trip down. We can hang out more and enjoy some adult beverages together.

Andrew

[bovey]

Make the trip down. We can hang out more and enjoy some adult beverages together.

Floated a few options past my wife. Bowling Green (LS Fest), Fort Worth (Ron Sutton Work Shop), Las Vegas (Ron Sutton, SEMA combo) and said pick 1 or 2. She's doing some homework, but this might happen. Will update. I'm more than likely going to PRI again this year, that is such a nerdy show.

[Ethereal]

Have you gone through the motions of comparing R&P to the stock steering box system? I'm on the fence, and I think for me the benefits of R&P boil down to weight savings and less wear points.

[bovey]

Have you gone through the motions of comparing R&P to the stock steering box system? I'm on the fence, and I think for me the benefits of R&P boil down to weight savings and less wear points.

For me it's 100% R&P. Just not yet.

From what I know, the fastest bolt on box is 14:1. I have an 14:1 AGR set-up and love it, it's just not fast enough. I even like the feel of my set-up. People claim R&P has a better feel, but I don't have enough personal experience to weigh in on that debate.

NOTE: you can get faster boxes, but they are for inside frame rail applications. This era of truck is outside the frame rail.

It's a costly change and very easy to get wrong. The geometry has to be correct to get the desired end result. The only way I'd go R&P on this generation of truck is with a full IFS clip like No Limit, DSE or Roadster Shop, OR if you did a full chassis from No Limit or RS. On this note, has anyone seen the RS products driven in anger, like consistently in anger?

IMHO, again... IMHO... unless you go all the way to make sure the geometry is correct, I question the cost and effort. The AGR set-up is a great solution that has tremendous bang for the buck AND it 100% bolt-on reliable performance in MY experience.

Please others, weigh in.

[bovey]

Most of the teardown is complete. I forgot how long this takes when you are trying NOT to break stuff. Talk about having room to work.

129438

GOOD NEWS: I now have in my possession a solve for a massive problem.

The parking brake. It's been a total pain in the butt.

By law, we are required a mechanical parking brake. Most try to get by with either a:

1) Line-loc
2) Hydraulic p-brake
3) old running shoe

None of these work for me and I strangely enjoy the challenge of making this thing legal and emissions friendly.

After a lot of digging, I found these. I noticed them on a few monster builds and a few Vipers. It took me forever to track them down to a company called IPSCO in Colorado.

129435

I spoke to the owner, his name is Mark. Nice guy. He's been making these for 18 years for this exact purpose - people who want to go fast or used hardcore parts on the street, but NEED a parking brake. AND THEY ARE FULL FLOATING, mechanical at that.

I must say the quality of these did not disappoint and the price point is more than fair. He offers a variety of brackets as well.

129436

I have yet to weight just the caliper, but Mark says it's about 2 lbs. The unit as photographed with the backing plate and cable mount came in at 3.4 lbs. There is a specific Right and Left side.

They are bigger than you think. Coke can for scale.

129437

[Dr G]

Have you seen those setups where they attach a small disc to the differential yoke and fasten the mechanical caliper to the housing? That way you only need one parking brake setup instead of two.

Gustave

[bovey]

Have you seen those setups where they attach a small disc to the differential yoke and fasten the mechanical caliper to the housing? That way you only need one parking brake setup instead of two.

Yes, I did look at them. However, the worst kind of weight to add to a vehicle is rotating mass. Not all mass is created equal - static, unsprung and rotating are evaluated differently. The static mass of what I choose is far better than adding weight to on the housing. It's a double whammy, adding rotating mass AND unsprung mass.

Most of the housing P-brakes are designed for Street Rods, and my intention and use is very far away from that.

[Dr G]

Yes, I did look at them. However, the worst kind of weight to add to a vehicle is rotating mass. Not all mass is created equal - static, unsprung and rotating are evaluated differently. The static mass of what I choose is far better than adding weight to on the housing. It's a double whammy, adding rotating mass AND unsprung mass.

Most of the housing P-brakes are designed for Street Rods, and my intention and use is very far away from that.Sure, sure, rotating mass. Though what I had in mind would be of little consequence in that regard. Assuming that we are talking about a "parking brake" and not an "emergency brake", then a very small disc could suffice, since thermal issues would be of no regard. So something like this little thing I saw on the Wilwood site would work:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2016/07/Ti20sprint20car20rotor-1.png

I had imagined this disc combined with the one of the trick little calipers you discovered. I do not know of that caliper could work with such a narrow disc though. And of course all of this would require some fabrication. I'm not sure there is really any advantage really other than some slight reduction in unsprung weight in single wheel bump, and it's kind of cool.

But maybe the way you are going is closer to a bolt on deal which makes it more straight forward (faster to completion), which is worth a lot. I'm always drawn to the road less travelled.

Gustave

[kingcrunch]

Personally i am not too fond of having the emergency brake act on the drive shaft. Drop it and gone is your emergency brake and parking brake.

[Ethereal]

I always thought a pin that when activated slotted into the rotor from the side or top would make a good, cheap, lightweight e-brake. I just did a quick search and couldn't find such a thing though.

[kingcrunch]

Been looking into the Forgeline wheels.
Where the heck does one specify the bolt pattern?

[bovey]

Been looking into the Forgeline wheels.
Where the heck does one specify the bolt pattern?

They can drill almost anything depending on the wheel design. In my case, I had ordered my wheels through Ron Sutton - he has all of my suspension calcs and figured out the wheel backspace in reference to my new spindles, from there we made set the 9" floater width. BUT, you can contact Forgeline through their tech e-mail address. I had some questions about finishes and hardware, they responded quickly and were very nice to deal with.

Do yourself a favour and think about your stud and nut size and double check the size of the socket you require, they can adjust the opening in the wheel for the socket to anything you want. I'd also confirm the wheel seat and make sure you can get nuts that work for your load/application. These small details can lead to expensive mistakes when dealing with wheels.

[MalibuSSwagon]

Mark, amazing build is what I have to say, really opened my eyes with what I can do with my 86 C10. I'm about to blow it apart soon to install the CPP trailing arm conversion I have, along with a TKO600 to get a little more sporty feel over the current SM465. I already have a 5.3 LS truck engine in there which runs great. I came here because I want to do more with the truck besides car shows and the daily drive, found your thread and now I can't wait to hit some auto-x courses.

[LT1C1500]

I've been home sick and just read this entire thread from the beginning. Thanks for documenting everything in detail. It's an awesome read, and will help me when I get down to business with my own truck. Keep up the great work!

[bovey]

Hi MalibuSSwagon and LT1C1500, thank you for the kind words. This entire thing has kinda spiralled out of control. The original plan was to just build it, do the Targa and then turn it into a "Pro-Touring" truck. However, lots has changed since I competed in the Targa Newfoundland, the main thing being I'm now a father of 3, so the truck is officially useless, so I'm going to push it further in the open road race direction. Good luck with your builds, and please, PLEASE learn from my mistakes.

I have completely missed driving this year. A few days ago, a friend asked for a couple photos of the truck. During my hunt, I found a few that had not been shared. Makes me miss pounding the pavement even more!

130822
130823

AND more parts arrived! In update #337 I outlined how I figured out to order a column from Woodward. Their product is beyond nice.
130821

They make a few firewall brackets, this is their new one. It's machined aluminum instead of stamped steel.
130820

And finally, these. Oh. My. You'd be shocked at how cheap these make street rod stuff look. Just a heads up, the spline is proprietary to Woodward, so you need to order everything from Woodward.
130824

More soon. 99% of the parts are officially here. I'm working my butt off at the moment so the project can finally enter fabrication. Sadly, I'm a couple months behind.

[andrewb70]

Nice parts! Did you decide on LSFest? Also, weren't you sending me a care package? I have a new address now....:-)

The rack in my Cougar is made by Woodward and those u-joints are very nice. Although, Burgeson makes really nice ones as well.

Andrew

[bovey]

Nice parts! Did you decide on LSFest? Also, weren't you sending me a care package? I have a new address now....:-)

The rack in my Cougar is made by Woodward and those u-joints are very nice. Although, Burgeson makes really nice ones as well.

Andrew

Crap. Your care package got lost in the transition of my office turning into a baby room. Ack. You are not the only one... the Karma Police are going to be hunting for me now. PM me your updated address.

As for LS Fest. I'm more than likely not going to make it, I just landed a new client. But I might be in the Vegas area around SEMA time.

Thanks for the tip on Burgeson, I'll look'em up!

[Dr G]

The original plan was to just build it, do the Targa and then turn it into a "Pro-Touring" truck. However, lots has changed since I competed in the Targa Newfoundland, the main thing being I'm now a father of 3, so the truck is officially useless, so I'm going to push it further in the open road race direction.
What do you mean when you say the truck is "officially useless"? As a work truck for hauling stuff? Are you going to make it "non-operational" for the street and have it as "track only"?

[kingcrunch]

Gustave, you need a Crew Cab to haul five people :D

[Dr G]

Gustave, you need a Crew Cab to haul five people :DAh-so...:)

[bovey]

What do you mean when you say the truck is "officially useless"? As a work truck for hauling stuff? Are you going to make it "non-operational" for the street and have it as "track only"?

Sorry, guess that is kinda a non sequitur... Not long ago, like 2 years ago, the truck was our family vehicle. We used it for family vacations, grocery shopping, Home Depot, dump runs, etc. We were planning on being a family of 4, but ended up 5. To further complicate the use of the truck, we live as downtown as you can get in Canada's largest city - we have LA level traffic. I live most of my day-to-day life on a bike, because it's faster. Again, truck is not needed. Due to all of this, and the main issue of being a family of 5 with 3 kids under the age of 4, and a truck that can sit a maximum of 3, makes it useless as anything other that using it go fast.

On the upside, my hand has been forced. I don't want to sell it, so might as well make it handle as best that I can (it's an interesting challenge), therefore making it useful. I've gone to great lengths to make it street legal for now, but I assume at some point it will become a completion only vehicle. But until then, or when it gets outlawed, I'll still drive it to the track and do the occasional Home Depot and ice cream run.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Get the plasma cutter out, time to alter that wheelbase! Project, 'extenda cab'

[bovey]

Hilarious Peter. Umm. No. The truck is actually big enough as is. ;)

The engine is down in Texas at the moment at SDPC Raceshop. They have been super cool about sending me photos during the build. The long block is done, I'm waiting on the dry sump system. Aviaid have been nice to deal with too, they had a few parts for my particular build that ended up not being off the shelf at the moment.

In a nutshell, the engine was is good shape with exception to a couple pistons that were galled from a time I had a couple of lifters let go.
131357

Everything has been magnafluxed and passed. Crank and rods have been resized, polished, and balanced; the block had to be cleaned-up up to 4.130" as the two galled pistons took the cylinders with them.
131354

The replacement pistons are forged Wiseco (2618 Alloy)
131353

I use a Callies CompStar rotating, all of the measurements checked out, so they are going back in. These parts are non-forged.
131356

Hello new pistons, meet the old rods. Or as Don Garlit's used to say "They are not used parts, they are proven parts." He drove my dad crazy, but I liked his schtick.
131358

Let the assembly begin!! SO. EXCITING.
131359
131360
131355

Ready for the dry sump test fit, and the head are going out for some work.
131361

[2ndroundko]

Man I love the approach of this build. Even though you didn't get you chassis everything else is going to make this truck so awesome. I hope you can keep it street legal long term, but if not I think this truck has earned it's retirements to the race track playground from street duty.

[kingcrunch]

Maybe a shortened race-Suburban? Would help with the weight distribution as well? Just kidding.

[Ethereal]

Ok what's the secret to getting companies to give you photos/perks/comps/etc? Might convince me not to just do everything myself if I could track the progress :p

[bovey]

Man I love the approach of this build. Even though you didn't get you chassis everything else is going to make this truck so awesome. I hope you can keep it street legal long term, but if not I think this truck has earned it's retirements to the race track playground from street duty.

Thanks. It's an odd thing to wrap my head around, I've always been into street driven monsters.


Maybe a shortened race-Suburban? Would help with the weight distribution as well? Just kidding.

I e-mailed about not one, but two K5s today... TWO. T-W-O. ACK. WHAT. AM. I. THINKING.


Ok what's the secret to getting companies to give you photos/perks/comps/etc? Might convince me not to just do everything myself if I could track the progress :p

Oh boy. There is no secret. Work really, really hard. Do something that more than likely should not be done. Be nice. I always ask the companies that I'm buying parts from for photos or something I can share here or wherever - I just want to make it interesting. I wasn't really planning on anyone caring. For the record - sometimes I get photos, most of the time nothing happens. I ask no matter what.

All of my partnerships kinda started by accident, I had not really thought of it until the owner of a wood mill I've dealt with since I was a kid (Hoffmeyer's Plaining Mill) said he'd be "glad to pitch it to help get the truck to the Targa Newfoundland" - he was a huge fan of that race.

The the ball just started rolling after that, cut to me on the side of a busy highway having a conference call with Dr. Jamie Meyer of Chevrolet Performance in Detroit - that was crazy. My local speed shop, Performance Improvements have had my back since they came out to a track day with me and had the time of their lives - and they continuously save my bacon. The SDPC thing hook-up came via Jamie at GM, SDPC are a great group of people. I have no fancy gear, no fancy garage, just some late, late nights. The people I've met have changed my life, and apparently I've done some good things for them too. I just try.

Trust me, where the truck is going now and what I'm going to attempt to do with it it unwritten territory for me. We are all along for the ride. Time and $ are a huge battle, but we all have that problem - no matter what we build.

We have a band up here called the Tragically Hip - they have a famous line in their song "Ahead by a Century" that has become stuck in my brain as I fight my way through this year.

"No dress rehearsal, this is our life."

[LT1C1500]

I shelved my truck when I met my wife. No money when we got our house, and I never did get thst big air compressor I was promised when we bought this place. 9 years later, my truck sits on jack stands with a stripped oil pump drive gear. Can't even start it anymore. As much as I've hated it for various reasons over the years, I just can't part with it. Enjoy the kids when they are young, and you'll be back having fun as time allows! We have a local road race track in our state, my goal is to have the truck running on it when I turn 40. That's 4 years. I have a stack of summit gift cards burning a hole in my pocket.

Enough of me, That steering column is a piece of artwork! Drool worthy!

[Ethereal]

We have a band up here called the Tragically Hip - they have a famous line in their song "Ahead by a Century" that has become stuck in my brain as I fight my way through this year.

"No dress rehearsal, this is our life."

Reminds me of the song "Wheat Kings" -- I'm going to have to give them another listen, their catalog is a lot bigger than I thought!

I also never thought I'd be getting even halfway serious about racing my truck but the more I dig into it and learn, the more it seems like it should be theoretically possible to make this thing handle. Challenging, but possible! I originally bought my truck for $600 and it had been sitting in the woods for 9 years; I thought it would make a good firewood hauler, and it sure did :)

[bovey]

So some photos showed up! And with them a story about planning ahead that worked out - accidentally.

Back when I built the LS 427 in 2010, the front drive options were minimal. Most people went with factory stuff, or there was some show and shine type stuff that scared the hell out of me. Then I found Wegner Motorsports. Yowza. Wicked, wicked stuff and could handle serious rpm. However, it was costly. But costly for a reason, when you bought there front drive kit, you got everything, the ATI damper, a Stewart water pump, alternator, everything. And it was designed to work with my GM distributor conversion, which it turned out Wegner designed for GM.

So I bought the WAK11 kit, super tidy set-up, mine is anodized black, but it looks like this. Worked and looked great. compact and sexy. Better yet the tensioner and pulleys are easy to find.

131582

But I'm swapping over to a dry sump, so I called Wegner and it turns out I can use most of my kit and just buy a few pieces to for their new race LS set-up. Super handy. I thought it was going to be a complete replacement type deal and drop a wad of cash. Nope. WIN.

131583

Then some bad news, I was taking to Casey (Wegner) and he said this would not work because I was going to street drive the truck and this was their full race set-up and designed to operate ONLY at high rpm. Basically, none of the accessories drives would work properly.

BOO.

But then he offered up a different solution, he had made the piece below for a guy building a crazy LS powered pre-runner truck and they had made a couple, just in case. So he sold me this. Basically, it keeps the water pump and accessories going and the right rpm an has room for the dry sump pump drive cog. NEAT.

131585
131586

THANKFULLY, Casey sent me photos of the part and I realized there was no provision for the power steering. Back to the drawing board. But after a quick back and forth about space, he sent me this photo which is a newer set-up (WAK-23), I only need the power steering bracket on the driver's side head. I own everything else, and the new crank drive above solves my dry sump issue.

131584

Thankfully, Wegner designs their parts with interchange in mind so they can accommodate different needs. This is a great example of paying a little more up from for quality parts (US made to boot), and having karma pay you back later with an inexpensive upgrade for when your build needs to grow.

[LT1C1500]

So some photos showed up! And with them a story about planning ahead that worked out - accidentally.

Back when I built the LS 427 in 2010, the front drive options were minimal. Most people went with factory stuff, or there was some show and shine type stuff that scared the hell out of me. Then I found Wegner Motorsports. Yowza. Wicked, wicked stuff and could handle serious rpm. However, it was costly. But costly for a reason, when you bought there front drive kit, you got everything, the ATI damper, a Stewart water pump, alternator, everything. And it was designed to work with my GM distributor conversion, which it turned out Wegner designed for GM.

So I bought the WAK11 kit, super tidy set-up, mine is anodized black, but it looks like this. Worked and looked great. compact and sexy. Better yet the tensioner and pulleys are easy to find.

131582

But I'm swapping over to a dry sump, so I called Wegner and it turns out I can use most of my kit and just buy a few pieces to for their new race LS set-up. Super handy. I thought it was going to be a complete replacement type deal and drop a wad of cash. Nope. WIN.

131583

Then some bad news, I was taking to Casey (Wegner) and he said this would not work because I was going to street drive the truck and this was their full race set-up and designed to operate ONLY at high rpm. Basically, none of the accessories drives would work properly.

BOO.

But then he offered up a different solution, he had made the piece below for a guy building a crazy LS powered pre-runner truck and they had made a couple, just in case. So he sold me this. Basically, it keeps the water pump and accessories going and the right rpm an has room for the dry sump pump drive cog. NEAT.

131585
131586

THANKFULLY, Casey sent me photos of the part and I realized there was no provision for the power steering. Back to the drawing board. But after a quick back and forth about space, he sent me this photo which is a newer set-up (WAK-23), I only need the power steering bracket on the driver's side head. I own everything else, and the new crank drive above solves my dry sump issue.

131584

Thankfully, Wegner designs their parts with interchange in mind so they can accommodate different needs. This is a great example of paying a little more up from for quality parts (US made to boot), and having karma pay you back later with an inexpensive upgrade for when your build needs to grow.

times like these are what make me want to buy, own, and know wtf I'm doing on a Bridgeport.

[bovey]

I'd love to build more of my own parts too. But time. Ugh. Also, I don' have time for the R&D. Companies like Wegner (for example) are invaluable when it comes to that. They partner with various companies to build serious stuff. I need proof the parts work, more than the satisfaction of building my own part.

I realize this type of thinking dips our toes into the 'built or bought' conversation, but I'm more about the vehicle is "On Jack Stands ON On Track" and for me 'On Track' is far more
important. I spent 8 years building the entire truck the first time - never, ever, again.

[Badbowtie383x]

Bovey thats awesome everything is working out and cant wait to see more pics of progress. We love pics, so bring em on.

[Dr G]

Nice. I actually get pretty excited about a well thought out and constructed accessory drive system. Something "track ready" vs. the usual billet-n-bling street machine stuff you see around.

[bovey]

Tonight I'm bringing a slightly different update. It's courtesy of a fellow racer, someone I met during the Targa Newfoundland in 2014.

In the 2014 event, he told me he was building a car to compete. I wished him well and followed his progress. He ended up building one hell of a car, an Evo. Epic 'cage, a well built car. The 2016 Targa just finished this past Friday.

131882

However, things did not go as planned, they made an error and met the end of their race prematurely and violently. This photo looks rather cushy, he assures me it was not.

131880

Once the car was dragged out, they were more able to appreciate the scope of the damage.

131881

The above photos are what were shared online, socially. I contacted him and asked if it was cool to share the photos here and asked him some questions.
He agreed, as he was happy with how the car saved them from serious injury.

Injuries. There were some. The co-driver escaped anything serious. He did need to spend the day in the hospital having scans and x-rays, there were concerns about his spine, due to the impact. He was able to get home that night, find a driver, find a car and continue in a lower class, for fun.

The driver, who is also the owner and builder of the car was not so fortunate. His knee below for example, is broke in half.

131883

Total injuries include a broken left knee cap, 2 broken ribs, a dislocated thumb and a nice full body hurt.

I took note of the knee cap, it made zero sense to me. He explained to me that the sideways nature of the hit, bashed his knee on the door braces.

I asked, but were they not padded? He said yes, with roll bar padding, but not the SFI kind. I did not tell him this but the difference in price is about $7CAN for the SFI stuff. FYI - regular roll cage padding is only good for insulating hot water pipes, at best. The foam roll bar padding you see on every drag car should be illegal - it's too soft and when you hit it during an accident it compresses fully and you hit the metal bar anyway. Spend the extra few bucks on the SFI stuff, a few companies make it.

That being said, I'm going to inspect my padding by my legs. I have SFI padding on my door brace, but my front down bar (not currently padded) is very close to my shine/ankle area.

Back to the car. I've asked for interior stress-point photos inside the car, but AFTER his knee heels.

But here is the underside. The car is hurt everywhere. However he has started teardown and believes the core of the car is fine. I have yet to ask him if he knows the car is still square, or not.

131885

131879

So, how fast do you think he was going? The limit in the Targa Newfoundland is 120ish MPH. Got a number?

131884

They were doing 85 mph when the hit. Eighty-freaking-five miles per hour. Hell, we've all done that on a highway. Right???

I thought this post might be a good share. I know most people are just AutoXing or doing the occasional track day. I am building the Targa Truck to take on more open road events, so I'm looking into this with great interest. Just like I am following along the findings of Big Red's fire. Things happen, we don't want them to, especially to fellow racers our ourselves, but they do.

This all reminds me it's best to build for the unforeseen things, and build them so you can go fast another day. Which is the case here, they have already started the teardown, and are planning the rebuild, and return to the starting line.

Be safe my friends, be fast too.

[bovey]

I need to find, then lose or move weight off the nose, the back is fine for now. At first, it seemed like a make work project stripping down the truck. However, given the number of missing or loose bolts; this turned out to be great idea.

It's not rocket science, other than getting the wiper arms off without scratching the paint. No matter how many times I do this, I always for get the trick. Eventually, I won. Pop over to the Targa Truck Facebook page if you want to see a stop motion gif thing... Benny Hill style.

132148

Kinda amazing how small these trucks make 295 tires look.
132149

And there has been some doubt about my set-up, that I'm hiding something fancy. Nope. Just boring stock stuff, with exception to the CCP sway bar, springs and spindles.
132151

Next up, a scale. In a perfect world, I'll loose some weight, which should be easy as I'm tearing out the heater, cutting out the factory firewall, rewiring with lighter components, the bulky factory pedals and column will be replaced with lighter parts. I'm thinking a lexan rear and side windows might be in the mix too.
132152

The goal is to loose or move 400 lbs to achieve a 50/50 front rear bias. I suspect I'll end up in the middle, loose some weight, move some weight. And ideally take the weight out of the stuff that is higher, like the hood, windows, etc. Time will tell.

[kingcrunch]

Yep, tires just "disappear" under trucks...

I'd say carbon fiber parts (hood, bumper, fender skins)... or punch speed holes into every sheet metal parts inner structure.
Get rid of the frame horns and replace them with bolt on aluminum outriggers.
R&P conversion should save some weight as well, but i think the most weight is in the sheetmetal. Prove me wrong and i will have to rethink my own approach as well.

[bovey]

Yep, tires just "disappear" under trucks...

I'd say carbon fiber parts (hood, bumper, fender skins)... or punch speed holes into every sheet metal parts inner structure.
Get rid of the frame horns and replace them with bolt on aluminum outriggers.
R&P conversion should save some weight as well, but i think the most weight is in the sheetmetal. Prove me wrong and i will have to rethink my own approach as well.

Agreed. Hood and bumper for sure. The fenders will stay metal as the cost vs. weight saved will not be a good enough. I may also look at "offshore" front fenders as they are made with a thinner gauge. Does anyone acid dip anymore? Might build an aluminum rad support. A fellow pt member (GEARBOXGARAGE) introduced me to Auto Rad aluminum core supports, but I'd have to modify it to death - photo from their web-site below.

132349

I'd like to note that the above paragraph is very expensive. I suspect I'll be working with what I have, and putting the money into the major changes that I'm doing now that will ideally set me up properly for the chassis build.

There is not a lot of weight to be saved from punching holes in the inner structure of the front body panels. If I remember correctly, Rob at No Limit did an artful job of punching holes in the original factory hood for Hellboy, and after all the work he had saved 7lbs. There are easier and better ways for me to save 7 lbs at this point, but it does all add up... so.... where is .. my hole saw...

The actual skins of the body are thick, thus heavy. It seems that with every evolution of truck designed, the manufacturing process got better and they were able to use thinner and thinner metal down to the tinfoil body panels we find on modern cars.

I'm very curious to see what can be achieved by moving all of the electronics, etc from the firewall to the back wall of the cab. All the wiring, heater, and the factory pedal assembly are a 100 lbs easy. And the new pedals are floor mount, reverse mount MCs for easy maintenance.

132350

I'm leaving the steering alone for now. It'll get changed when the chassis gets replaced.

[kingcrunch]

Maybe not the conventional type of idea but what about replacing that foremost crossmember with one replicated in aluminum?
Hollow sway bar saves a few pounds as well.

What about the bumper? Do you have a source for that?
I am done with modifying my proto-bumper and hope to be able to move that to the company making the carbon fiber copies of it...
They said they could pull about 80 pieces from that mold.

[bovey]

Maybe not the conventional type of idea but what about replacing that foremost crossmember with one replicated in aluminum? Hollow sway bar saves a few pounds as well.

What about the bumper? Do you have a source for that?
I am done with modifying my proto-bumper and hope to be able to move that to the company making the carbon fiber copies of it...
They said they could pull about 80 pieces from that mold.

The chassis is staying largely untouched. If I get my way, it will only be under the truck for another year or 2.

Most of the body parts available for these trucks are the early C10 parts. As this is a later design GMC, the front end stuff inducing the bumper are slightly different. I want to keep it a GMC, so I have to figure out these details. Maybe I shouldn't care, but I do.

Major surgery is now booked, the truck with be going under the plasma cutter soon. I've been looking at the cab trying to figure out where to cut it.

I've come up with this plan, to start anyway.

If anyone has suggestions or has cut one of these, please advise. Thank you in advance.

This is basically what is coming out. Most of it has so many holes from the factory, or is in the way of me moving the engine. As the steering column, heater, and pedals are getting changed, I'm starting fresh.

132858

I think leaving the door pillar alone is smart, but the vent area is gone I believe. I want to cover up the vents for safety anyway. But I do want to figure out an alternate plan for fresh air. Also, doing it something like this keeps all my factory panel mounting points to keep it easier to put back together.

132857

Either we will cut the front floor seam OR cut it just in front of the body mount brace. The floor needs to be remade to suit the floor mounted tilton pedal box. Not sure what all has to come out from the trans tunnel. I figure well trim and trim until the engine/trans are sitting the right spot and build around them.

132856
132855

Not sure what addition safety (i.e. bars) I need or want around my feet. Need to do some homework there.

[Ethereal]

So the goal of a rebuilt firewall is to save weight I assume, but what will you replace it with, and how much weight do you expect it to save? I've got some hood hinges sitting on a shelf and those are 10lbs on their own I bet.

Re: radiator support, I bet you could fab up a lightweight skeleton/frame style support right? No reason that it has to be a solid sheet of metal afaict.

[bovey]

So the goal of a rebuilt firewall is to save weight I assume, but what will you replace it with, and how much weight do you expect it to save? I've got some hood hinges sitting on a shelf and those are 10lbs on their own I bet.

Re: radiator support, I bet you could fab up a lightweight skeleton/frame style support right? No reason that it has to be a solid sheet of metal afaict.

The primary goal of the rebuilt firewall is to accommodate the new engine placement, to move weight back. Some weight will be saved, I'm not sure how much yet - depends what happens to the rigidity when we cut it. The factor firewall has a number of layers, I'll be replacing it with .060" steel to pass tech, no idea of the weight trade-off yet.

FIA, CASC and SCCA say this about a firewall: "A metal bulkhead separating Driver's compartment from engine room preventing the passage of flame and debris." No mention of thickness.

FIA does give a spec for Formula Drift: .036" steel ir .59" aluminum

ECTA (land speed) requires 0.60" minimum regardless of metal, but would "prefer" .095".

I do plan on doing something with the rad support, IF everything goes smoothly. I have a new radiator to work in anyway. Not sure if it's smarter to rebuild the rad support when I do the chassis.

I'm currently hunting down a set of scales to weigh the truck without a front end. I've also weighed all the various stock parts. I'm only adjusting what needs to be done, if the stock stuff works from a weight standpoint, it's going back on for now.

[kingcrunch]

About the tires again:
I rolled a 305/35 R20 under my truck today and whaddaya say, it didn't disappear optically.

[bovey]

My father thinks it's hilarious that I'm cutting out the only part that wasn't rusty when we first built the truck.

A good chunk of the firewall is out. More that likely more will be cut, but this is all that needs to be removed for now. We are playing it safe as not to compromise the structure of the cab. So far, so good.

133964

The mock-up engine and t56 are getting fitted at the moment. Had an unfortunate issue with the dry sump, engine mount and header all wanting to occupy the same place. The end result is the header is going to meet a cut-off wheel and tig welder. Photos to come.

133965

All of the old parts are now off the truck, and we fitted the new RSRT spindles, they went on like factory units. That goodness, as I'm sticking with the factory a-arms until I build the next version of the chassis. These Howe 3-piece ball joints are fantastic works of art. Looks like a may have to do a little magic on the tie-rod ends, but I think it's easy. Think...

133963

I will not miss this 12 bolt. Nothing but an expensive pain in my wallet, and that's after shelling out the $$$ for the 9" floater. Right now we are figuring out he driveline angles. The springs are coming out so I can have the spring rates checked. I made some mistakes in recording the ride height, so the is some precision guess work coming up to sort that out. There is a chance that we can do some ride height work, but that will come once we understand how the truck is going to sit.

133962

I'm very curious to weight this pile. None of it is going back on, but the question is how much weight difference is there between this pile of heavy and the new pile of parts to replace them. I'm working on some math to show how I'm finding the 400 lbs to loose or move to the back. It's going to be a bit of both to try to achieve the goal, HOWEVER some of the new parts are heavier, like the brakes, so there is going to be some give and take.

133966

[kingcrunch]

How far are you going to set the engine back?
I am debating with myself whether i should do the same. But: pristine firewall...

[bovey]

How far are you going to set the engine back?
I am debating with myself whether i should do the same. But: pristine firewall...

The aim is around 12 inches back. The dash was the limit, but I'm warming up to adjusting the dash for engine placement at this point. We are going to put the block and t56 in place and see what lands where. The tailstock and the tailing arm crossmember might be the stopping point, or the stopping point might be the amount of room left for the pedal box, time will tell. I also am going to need to figure out how to get air into the throttle body, but I have some ideas. AND shifter location is also something that needs consideration.

For a street truck, I wouldn't go this extreme. And if you don't go this extreme in a truck then it's kinda a wasted effort as you can achieve the same weight adjustments with other changes. At least that is what my calculator says.

[Ethereal]

Your engine is pretty gnarly, but have you considered going to an aluminum block to shave ~80lbs off the front? What about an aftermarket crossmember (could save ~20lbs, stocker is aout 70lbs) -- This one (http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showpost.php?p=4735558&postcount=9) is ~200lbs less than stock altogether.

I was thinking, is it better to add weight to the rear to artificially achieve a 50/50 weight balance if that's necessary? Or would the detriment of the added weight make this a losing proposition.


if you don't go this extreme in a truck then it's kinda a wasted effort as you can achieve the same weight adjustments with other changes. At least that is what my calculator says.

What other changes? Is moving the engine back 12 inches really the easiest way?

I bet you could effectively move 15lbs to the rear by switching to airbags up front, with the compressor and tank in the rear. Maybe have the lower control arm shafts machined out of aluminum to save 10lbs there...

[Mtrhd329]

I did pretty much what you are looking into doing. I set my engine back behind the crossmember and then since the crossmember was not in the way i could drop it down also. Ended up being about 18" back and 6" down. I made a frame of what used to be my firewall out of 3/4" square tubing and plated it with .032 aluminum.

[bovey]

I did pretty much what you are looking into doing. I set my engine back behind the crossmember and then since the crossmember was not in the way i could drop it down also. Ended up being about 18" back and 6" down. I made a frame of what used to be my firewall out of 3/4" square tubing and plated it with .032 aluminum.

Wow. 18". You sir, are my hero. I've been following your build, it's very adventurous - love it. What pan do you have on your engine to achieve the 6" drop? I'll have a 2.125" dry sump pan, making the t56 the lowest point. I'm not sure where my headers hang in reference to my transmission. Next week is a big week for this project. Decisions are going to be made.

I fully plan on getting behind the front crossmember, but hot dam son - 18" back?!?!?! Impressive. Just keep in mind .032" aluminum is not exactly going to do much in regards to safety. I'm going with 0.040" steel to pass ECTA tech, I want to go land speed racing again.

[bovey]

Your engine is pretty gnarly, but have you considered going to an aluminum block to shave ~80lbs off the front? What about an aftermarket crossmember (could save ~20lbs, stocker is aout 70lbs) -- This one (http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showpost.php?p=4735558&postcount=9) is ~200lbs less than stock altogether.

Well, a stock aluminum block will not survive. I've been told this by various engine builders and people inside GM. I'd love an aftermarket aluminum block, but I can't afford it. And at this time, that kind of money goes a long way doing other things. I own the heaviest, toughest block as it's an Chevrolet Performance LS Race Block, it'll put up with what I do. If this was a trailered car, I'd do it differently.

The cross member in that link is cool, but it breaks many geometry rules for turning corners. The truck will be a lighter chassis in the next bing revision a couple years from now. Keep in mind, the truck handles well for my talent level at this time. The changes I'm making should allow me to progress as a driver and make the truck more reliable/safer.


I was thinking, is it better to add weight to the rear to artificially achieve a 50/50 weight balance if that's necessary? Or would the detriment of the added weight make this a losing proposition.

I've read about this very thing on various posts and everyone says the same thing. Never add extra weight, no matter what. Based on the empty truck weight, I'm moving back or loosing 400lbs. It's more complicated than this, but my plan is to outline this process as I go.


What other changes? Is moving the engine back 12 inches really the easiest way?

No. And if I wanted easy, I'd have bought something else or build something and not built this long bed GMC.

I want/need interesting.

Moving the engine back now gives me room to move in the future. IF I can balance the truck with an boat anchor iron block, steel body, and in street trim, Imagine how easy it'll be for me to loose weight overall SHOULD the truck ever go full race! This is an experiment. There is no reason for the engine to stay in the stock location for my use, so I'm moving it to centralize the weight. Even if it was an aluminum block, it would still be better to move it closer to the centre of the chassis.

Please keep in mind, no matter what I do to this truck, it will never be ideal because of the platform I'm starting with. It's too long and too wide.


I bet you could effectively move 15lbs to the rear by switching to airbags up front, with the compressor and tank in the rear. Maybe have the lower control arm shafts machined out of aluminum to save 10lbs there...

I'm not an air guy. As for moving 15 lbs, I'm aiming for way more than that. For example; moving the battery and mufflers under the bed saves 10 lbs and moves almost 100 lbs off the front to the rear. And if I use a race battery it drops 40lbs and moves 70 lbs. Either way it is 110 lbs relocated of the 400 lbs I need to find. And this is just a start. I have ideas, but are they any good? We'll find out.

[kingcrunch]

I want/need interesting.


Can i get a shirt with that quote? :hail:

Sums it up best.

[Dr G]

And if I wanted easy, I'd have bought something else or build something and not built this long bed GMC.



Yup, if we wanted easy I suppose we'd all be working on Formula-V's or something right? :)

[Peter Mc Mahon]

So if it is true to never add weight then I think it would be true to always try and lose weight even if it is off the back of a pickup truck? Thoughts?

[Ethereal]

And in that vein, why not just take the bed off?

[Peter Mc Mahon]

A truck is not a truck without a bed.

[bovey]

So if it is true to never add weight then I think it would be true to always try and lose weight even if it is off the back of a pickup truck? Thoughts?

Not exactly. Keep in mind there are two goals.

1) Balance the weight. 50/50
2) loose weight. Anything under 4000 lbs. is a win.

Trucks tend to be a 60/40 split. Given these numbers, if you take weight off the rear, you are making the imbalance/bias of the truck overall worse. We don't want that.



And in that vein, why not just take the bed off?

Same answer as above. The weight problem is worse up front, than in the rear.


A truck is not a truck without a bed.

AND where would I put all of my spare parts and tools? Not to mention the tailgate makes a lovely pot luck dinner table.

I've made some diagrams to explain my thinking. To keep it simple I'm working with ROUND numbers. Please feel free to jump if you have a better idea.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a pro and this might be over simplified. Just trying to make a point about my findings after spending a lot of time weighing parts.

I realized that there are two centres, both of these are mathematical centres. At this time I do not understand where the exact centre is. My belief it is somewhere within 8 inches in front of the trailing arm crossmember.

Centre 1
The overall truck centre is roughly at the cab/box meeting point, which also happens to be the trailing arm cross member in the frame. The total vehicle weight is obviously everything that hangs before and after the wheels, but please note the rear has more overhang which adds to the pendulum effect when things get hairy.

Centre 2
When moving weight around for handling, it's my understanding to keep it between the front and rear axel, keep it low and spread it evenly side-to-side.

134072

Let's keep the math simple. 4000 lbs with a 60/40 split. For the sake of this conversation I'm leaving left and right equal. This is NOT reality. This is perfect example for discussion purposes. Cool? Once I have the majority of parts back on the truck, I'm going to weight it and see what is where.
134073

Here is why taking weight from the rear is tricky - it's 1600 lbs. If you could make the front 1600 lbs??!?! We'd have a 3200 lb truck. Great in theory. Tough in practice, without cutting it to death and I'm not doing that at this time. I'd like to see what can be achieved with weight management, prior to lightweight ($$$) body panels, etc.
134074

My plan was move 400 lbs to the centre/back, but in front of the rear wheels. Truck is still 4000lbs, but it has achieved a 50/50 weight balance.
134075

This is the ultimate goal for this stage of the build. Remove 200 lbs of weight from the front and move 300 to the centre/back. Total vehicle weight of 3800 lbs and 50/50 weight bias.
134076

Is this clear? Do you see why I question taking weight from the rear? It's 800 lbs lighter than the front. 800. I believe this also illustrates why adding weight when the truck is already so heavy is an issue too. The magic number is the mysterious 400 lbs that needs to move to the rear for a 4000 lb truck that is 50/50.

Easy in theory. Hard in practice. But here we are in the trucks section of pro-touring.com!

i'm keen to learn something. More info as soon as I can.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

So I am probably over simplifying this too much, but if it is possible to remove weight in the rear and you don't because of throwing off the balance even more, that is 'sort of' the same as having had a lighter truck that you added weight to for improving balance?.

[bovey]

So I am probably over simplifying this too much, but if it is possible to remove weight in the rear and you don't because of throwing off the balance even more, that is 'sort of' the same as having had a lighter truck that you added weight to for improving balance?.

Let's add weights to this. Simplified numbers again.

If your truck is 3000 lbs. 1600 front. 1400 rear. You add 200 lbs to the rear for 50/50 and a total of 3200 lbs. Sure, I guess.

But I'd fight like hell to remove 200 from the front and have a 2800 lb truck.

And sure, you could act like a drag racer and build the car underweight and bring it up to a race weight or ideal weight.

[Ethereal]

Keep in mind that the placement of weight affects the front/rear weight balance linearly -- the further back the weight is placed, the more it contributes to rear weight vs. front weight. So placing weight just behind the rear axle will be more beneficial that placing it just in front of the rear axle, for instance. Similarly, taking 200lbs from the front and placing it in front of the rear axle might not result in the net weight shift that you are looking for. If you have weights of course, you could just move some sandbags around the truck to see exactly what the effect will be in various placements.

I'm still not sure about adding weight to achieve 50/50 or whether it's a good idea. You mentioned that it's never a good idea to add weight even if it results in a 50/50 balance but I think that's not true; it probably depends on what your priorities are. If you need as light a vehicle as possible vs. the enhanced handling of a 50/50 balance, for instance.

[Dr G]

Allow me to throw a monkey wrench into this conversation. The idea that a vehicle should have a 50/50 front to rear weight distribution as some sort of ideal, where did this originate? Look at Formula One for example. Those cars have over 60% of their mass on the rear tires and they handle just fine last time I looked. And I've never heard any of the head designers wish they could move mass forward. They are perfectly happy with the front to rear mass distribution that they have now. (as an aside they have a 120 inch wheelbase too, wow)

But, F1 cars have a mid-engine configuration. Similarly, one can look at the now very effective Porsche 911 rear-engine configuration, which has been made to handle extremely well with over 60% of it's mass over the rear tires.

My conclusion? The 50/50 magic number applies only to front engined vehicles. So maybe that is not a big revelation for most folks.

But why only 50/50? Why should we not 45/55 target front to rear weight distribution? That is better for acceleration, better for braking, and cornering can be balanced out with slightly wider rear tires.

My theory is simply that it is very difficult to get better than 50/50 weight distribution for any front engined passenger vehicle, so it has just become the default magic number over the years. BMW probably helped propagate this by using it as part of their advertising for a long time. Their are front engined cars that have more mass on the rear tires than the front, but they are usually limited to two-seaters of the "front-mid-engine" type, like Aston Martins and some Ferraris. And these cars do handle extremely well.

Now, on to the monkey wrench. Let's say Bovey, though great effort, has achieved his nirvana of 50/50 front to rear weight distribution (on the tires). Could he jettison the truck bed to reduce overall weight, thereby destroying the balance, and yet be faster overall?

My answer has two parts:

Autocross = I venture that the answer is yes. But it would take some unorthodox setup techniques. I speculate that the front wheels and tires would have to be wider than the rears to achieve some type of cornering balance. And who know what would have to be done with springs and shocks. But auto-x is so incredibly sensitive to vehicle mass that I believe the reduction in mass would outweigh the reduction in balance.

Road Coarse = I am not sure. Loosing the bed is an extreme example. Something less extreme, like losing 100 pounds off the rear in some magical way, I think that would still be faster. Would you start to have traction problems if the rear got too light? Well Formula Ford's and Formula V's weigh nothing and get traction just fine. Granted they have less mass to push, but the truck is getting lighter overall as we (theoretically) take weight off the rear wheels. Front wheel drive cars can be made to go very fast on a track with over 60% of their mass on the front tires. But one you start approaching 65% front mass I think things would get pretty weird.

Anyways, just me two cents, in the interest of discussion. Me personally, I'd be aiming for 50/50 and be pretty happy if I could get there!

[Peter Mc Mahon]

This subject should be its own thread. I like it.

[bovey]

Keep in mind that the placement of weight affects the front/rear weight balance linearly -- the further back the weight is placed, the more it contributes to rear weight vs. front weight. So placing weight just behind the rear axle will be more beneficial that placing it just in front of the rear axle, for instance. Similarly, taking 200lbs from the front and placing it in front of the rear axle might not result in the net weight shift that you are looking for. If you have weights of course, you could just move some sandbags around the truck to see exactly what the effect will be in various placements.

I'm still not sure about adding weight to achieve 50/50 or whether it's a good idea. You mentioned that it's never a good idea to add weight even if it results in a 50/50 balance but I think that's not true; it probably depends on what your priorities are. If you need as light a vehicle as possible vs. the enhanced handling of a 50/50 balance, for instance.

Yes, but you need to keep packaging in mind, the further you put weight from the both the x and y axis, the more leverage the weight has. This is why serious solo autoX builders put as much weight as they can in the middle of the car.

And yes, there are exceptions to the 50/50 rule and adding weight to achieve balance. But in the case of the things we build here, the 50/50 rule and not adding weight to vehicles that are 4000 lbs make a lot of sense and are solid goals to aim for.


Dr G. Excellent thoughts.

One thing, keep in mind F1 cars have things like aero... and wings... and downforce to optimize the car.

We chase a static 50/50 weight as it's simple to understand and a good starting point. The aero dynamics of what we are dealing with here on this forum are less than ideal, to state the obvious!

"Similarly, one can look at the now very effective Porsche 911 rear-engine configuration, which has been made to handle extremely well with over 60% of it's mass over the rear tires." - Dr. G

I'd be willing to bet if they could achieve a better bias the cars would be more competitive. But to your point, they have optimized the set-up, give the rear loaded weight. You can compensate with tire width and suspension set-up.

"Now, on to the monkey wrench. Let's say Bovey, though great effort, has achieved his nirvana of 50/50 front to rear weight distribution (on the tires). Could he jettison the truck bed to reduce overall weight, thereby destroying the balance, and yet be faster overall?" - Dr. G

Maybe, if the shocks suspension are tuned for it. Look at the problems Roadkill had with the Vette cart when they simply cut away all the weight to make the car better - it did not handle well until they compensated in other areas.

My goal at this time if to keep the truck looking like a truck, so the bed stays. Sure 50/50 is a mathematical goal and you may not need it perfect to achieve better driving characteristics. The likely hood of hitting this goal is slim, it will always have a bias be it front or rear due to the loads I carry for different events are always changing, like a co-driver, tools, spare parts, etc.

I always remind myself when things seem impossible that 3 years ago I was told this truck would never be competitive and at this time the truck has chased down a number of super cars that I can only dream to own.

[Dr G]

One thing, keep in mind F1 cars have things like aero... and wings... and downforce to optimize the car.

We chase a static 50/50 weight as it's simple to understand and a good starting point. The aero dynamics of what we are dealing with here on this forum are less than ideal, to state the obvious!

"Similarly, one can look at the now very effective Porsche 911 rear-engine configuration, which has been made to handle extremely well with over 60% of it's mass over the rear tires." - Dr. G

I'd be willing to bet if they could achieve a better bias the cars would be more competitive. But to your point, they have optimized the set-up, give the rear loaded weight. You can compensate with tire width and suspension set-up.



I don't think we should let the aero of F-1 or the rear engine configuration of the 911 obscure the discussion. Maybe I should have used the Boxster as an example instead of the 911. A slight rearward bias is preferable (in an ideal world). Accelerate; weight transfers to the rear tires, better acceleration. Brake; weight transfers to the front tires, evening out the overall weight distribution and improves braking. Cornering can be balanced via wider rear tires.

You are probably correct concerning the 911. Porsche engineering would most likely prefer to have the mass of that engine inside the rear axle. But I suspect that's more for reduction in polar moment of inertia than for front to rear weight distribution. Once you start the rear sliding with that big mass hanging way out back it's tough to control (aka the old Turbo Carrera and its fearsome reputation). But over the years the guys at Porsche have slowly tamed it with all kinds of tweaks, most notable active rear steering in the latest iteration.

Notwithstanding the foregoing, as the lawyers love to say, there are cars on either side of the 50/50 point that handle very well indeed. Just a few from some recent magazine tests:

2017 Aston Martin V12 Vantage S 53/47%
2017 Audi R8 V10 42/58%
2016 BMW M4 GTS 53/47%
2017 Camaro SS 1LE 54/46%
2016 Dodge Viper ACR 50/50%
2016 Mustang GT350R 54/46%
2016 McLaren 570S 42/58%
2016 Mercedes-AMG GT S 48/52%
2017 Nissan GT-R 55/45%
2017 Porsche 911 Carrera S 37/63%

[Dr G]

My goal at this time if to keep the truck looking like a truck, so the bed stays. Sure 50/50 is a mathematical goal and you may not need it perfect to achieve better driving characteristics. The likely hood of hitting this goal is slim, it will always have a bias be it front or rear due to the loads I carry for different events are always changing, like a co-driver, tools, spare parts, etc.

I always remind myself when things seem impossible that 3 years ago I was told this truck would never be competitive and at this time the truck has chased down a number of super cars that I can only dream to own.

In case it's not clear, I am totally on board with your goals. They are very similar to my own. Keep the truck looking like a truck, and try to make it go as good as it can. And although I'm not there yet, the thought of leaving some Porsche guys in my rear views at a track day seems very appealing. Just for the WTF-factor. I used to do the same thing in my old 1976 Rabbit back in the 90's.

Keep up the good work!

[bovey]

Notwithstanding the foregoing, as the lawyers love to say, there are cars on either side of the 50/50 point that handle very well indeed. Just a few from some recent magazine tests:

2017 Aston Martin V12 Vantage S 53/47%
2017 Audi R8 V10 42/58%
2016 BMW M4 GTS 53/47%
2017 Camaro SS 1LE 54/46%
2016 Dodge Viper ACR 50/50%
2016 Mustang GT350R 54/46%
2016 McLaren 570S 42/58%
2016 Mercedes-AMG GT S 48/52%
2017 Nissan GT-R 55/45%
2017 Porsche 911 Carrera S 37/63%

These are interesting, thanks for digging them up. I'd be willing to bet that the engineers that build the cars you mention above are not happy about compromising performance for whatever creature comfort or selling feature they had to accommodate for.

As others have mentioned as we discuss this topic, there are clearly more ways to skin this cat. However for where my build is at; the truck is a shell at the moment with zero drivetrain, or interior, or front end, I'm taking the opportunity to put things back in a better location for weight management.



This subject should be its own thread. I like it.

Agreed, it's making me think. Curious to see how it actually works out.

[Ethereal]

Porsche engineering would most likely prefer to have the mass of that engine inside the rear axle.

Now you're talking, that's some 10x engineering right there! Let's take a front wheel drive package and throw it in the rear :)

[brawls43]

The other thing to keep in mind with weight balance are the vehicle dynamics. If you're set up is just a little off, or your getting tired behind the wheel, what's easier to drive hard? 911's have struggled for a long time with snap oversteer, due to the amount of weight behind the rear axle. That weight gets out there, and it can be hard to catch and bring it back. Look at the new 911's coming out, they've finally moved the engine to mid.

To Dr G's point, a 45/55 might be an even better weight balance then 50/50, but getting there with a front engine setup is a big challenge. You can always strive to be like the Panoz racecars, and instead of hoping for a mid/rear layout, get to the front/mid layout. Hard to package, but if you're moving an engine back 12-18", you're getting pretty close to that.

I love these non-traditional race "cars". Keep up the good work guys!

[Ethereal]

Ok now that I've read this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift-off_oversteer

I have a question about snap oversteer (sorry bovey this thread has gotten way OT perhaps), is this affected by weight placement, or only by the center of gravity? In other words, if the CG is center of the car does it matter exactly where the weight is?

I can actually see using this as a benefit to long vehicles like trucks, in order to make sharper turns (autox).

[Ron Sutton]

50/50 is ideal for pavement race cars. No exceptions I know of. Everything else is a compromise & has to be dealt with. When you build a rear engined car it is next to impossible to make it 50/50 & still have a driver fit. So the key is to run bigger tires & bigger aero in the rear to help handle the rear weight bias.

[Dr G]

There was also a previously unaddressed question = "does it ever make sense to add mass to a vehicle in order to get closer to a 50/50% front to rear weight distribution?"

I will speculate the answer is no.

My answer is based only on observations of modern touring car racing series where they employ "success ballast". Most notably the BTCC (British Touring Car Championship), where a car that wins is subsequently forced to run ballast in the next race. If it wins again it has to run more ballast. And so on, until it starts to place further back in the field, whence the ballast can start being removed. It sounds contrived but makes for some great racing. And they have all types of cars: front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, all wheel drive etc. all competing pretty evenly.

Now the front wheel drive cars, when run at minimum weight, will always be pretty front heavy by virtue of having the engine mounted out over the front wheels. So when they win (and the often do) and then have to run ballast, you can bet they try to balance out their weight distribution with that ballast. I'd wager they mount it low down between the center of the car and the rear axle somewhere. This unquestionably gives them a better front to rear weight distribution. But, I have never seen a car with ballast run faster than one without ballast. They always run slower when weight is added, in fact they are quite sensitive to it. Regardless of any improvement in weight distribution.

For the RWD and AWD cars I cannot be sure what their non-ballasted weight distributions are. Maybe they are already close to 50/50? For the Audi's probably not, again because of the engine being out over the front wheels. But the Audi's don't generally win, so I've not seen how they react to ballast.

Anyway, there is my empirically derived theory on adding weight to improve weight distribution. :)

[Peter Mc Mahon]

So I will throw in, if they always slow down by adding weight, do they always speed up loosing weight? Will a poorer 50/50 ideal balance be offset by the quicker acceleration/deceleration of loosing weight?

[kingcrunch]

Does that allow for the conclusion that the larger tire goes where the weight is?

[bovey]

Does that allow for the conclusion that the larger tire goes where the weight is?

Let's see if Ron chimes in, but I'm fairly certain the answer is yes. He speaks about this in his suspension tuning workshops. The problem is, no one wants to put 335s on the front of their '69 Camaro and 245s on the back.

Also, so not of topic. I'm totally down with this conversation, ideally we all learn something. I've experienced, no induced snap oversteer - totally my fault too. You can see the result in the video below at the :30 second mark. I came within 6" of going through a fence and parking in a little old lady's living room.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e6qlmlUSP4

[Ron Sutton]

So I will throw in, if they always slow down by adding weight, do they always speed up loosing weight? Will a poorer 50/50 ideal balance be offset by the quicker acceleration/deceleration of loosing weight?

Just to clarify ... I did not say that removing weight will always make a car quicker nor adding weight will always make a car slower. A lot of racers have added weight as a tuning tool and it was successful in making their car quicker. But it was masking a different issue. If they had tuned the correct part of the car, they could have made the car quicker without adding weight. Conversely, some racers have removed weight from their cars & the car slowed down on track because the suspension wasn't tuned for the new weight balance.

What I was attempting to convey is that in designing or building a car or truck, the closer we can get to 50/50 F/R .... and 50/50 L/R weight bias ... the better platform we'll have for autocross & road course competition. The suspension still needs to be set up & tuned for whatever balance we have. Being 50/50 F/R doesn't make the car an automatic performance star. It simply makes that car a better version of itself.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

I also think that centralizing mass might be worth more time on a track vs 50/50. Getting weight away from the perimeter I think would be one of the most advantageous things. Making a probably irrelevant argument, if putting 200 lbs fuel cell on the rear bumper would give you a 50/50 balance but putting that 200 lbs fuel cell behind the cab would make it say 54/46. My totally uneducated guess would be the latter will be faster on a track. I think the same is true for side to side and not just front to rear

[Ethereal]

Does that allow for the conclusion that the larger tire goes where the weight is?
I'm thinking the opposite; that to achieve equal traction front to back you can compensate for decreased weight by going with a larger contact patch. That's assuming that you actually want equal traction of course.


I also think that centralizing mass might be worth more time on a track vs 50/50. Getting weight away from the perimeter I think would be one of the most advantageous things. Making a probably irrelevant argument, if putting 200 lbs fuel cell on the rear bumper would give you a 50/50 balance but putting that 200 lbs fuel cell behind the cab would make it say 54/46. My totally uneducated guess would be the latter will be faster on a track. I think the same is true for side to side and not just front to rear

I'm getting the feel that this is always a tradeoff -- a counterargument here is that moving weight from the rear to the center of the vehicle will facilitate greater weight transfer under braking conditions, reducing rear traction.


I think for me, I need to know what the *ideal* car looks like and then design toward that. I tried searching for this via the Google and came across this article, which I've yet to fully read but it looks intrigueing:

http://automotivethinker.com/chassis/stop-and-weight-a-5050-weight-distribution-is-not-optimal/

[Ron Sutton]

I also think that centralizing mass might be worth more time on a track vs 50/50. Getting weight away from the perimeter I think would be one of the most advantageous things. Making a probably irrelevant argument, if putting 200 lbs fuel cell on the rear bumper would give you a 50/50 balance but putting that 200 lbs fuel cell behind the cab would make it say 54/46. My totally uneducated guess would be the latter will be faster on a track. I think the same is true for side to side and not just front to rear

Hey Peter,

You are correct. Putting the weight masses inside the axles is more important than hitting a F/R weight bias number. Side to side is less critical, because the weight is inside the tire footprint.

P.S. I did develop a Build Your Own Chassis package that fits the goals you laid out to me. Let me know if you're still interested.

[Ron Sutton]

Does that allow for the conclusion that the larger tire goes where the weight is?

The short answer is Yes.

The detailed answer is we have two forces to consider when cornering. The forces pushing down (car weight & any downforce) on the tires creates grip. So more weight on tires creates more grip. This is good for unbalanced weight cars ... because the other force is G-force wanting to push the car to the outside of the corner and off track. More so as corner speed increases.

If we only consider car weight ... the grip of the tires doesn't increase with speed, but the force wanting to push the car off track does. At some point in cornering speed, the g-forces will overcome the grip & the car will break traction. If the car was neutral handling up to this point ... the heavy end of the car will be the end that breaks free.

In other words, again assuming the car's suspension was set-up & tuned for neutral handling up to the point we lose grip ... if the car was front heavy, the front tires would brake traction & go into a push. If the car was rear heavy, the rear tires would break traction first & get loose. So on cars that are rear heavy, if the race rules allow, we run wider rear tires (and more downforce if the rules allow). So on Formula Fords & F2000 cars where we have a 44/56 F/R weight bias, we also run close to a 44/56 F./R tire bias by running 8" wide tires in the front & 10" in the rear. This is why you see wider rear tires on Indy cars & other cars with heavier rear weight bias.

Make sense?

[kingcrunch]

Thanks Ron! Really easy to understand explanation.

[Ethereal]

Wouldn't a better conclusion be to stuff as much tire as you can in all four corners? It seems silly to aim for all four corners breaking free at the same time when you should really aim to not break free at all, especially if your weight is front biased because additional rear traction will help you with acceleration right?

[Ron Sutton]

Wouldn't a better conclusion be to stuff as much tire as you can in all four corners? It seems silly to aim for all four corners breaking free at the same time when you should really aim to not break free at all, especially if your weight is front biased because additional rear traction will help you with acceleration right?

I'm not sure who you are asking, but I'll respond. Yes, our handling goal should be to run as wide of tires as you can ... evenly on all 4 corners .... assuming the car/truck is 50/50 weight bias or front heavy. The only time we want to run wider rear tires for handling purposes, is if the car/truck is heavier in the rear.

It sounds like you're looking to learn about car design. If so you may want to read on some of my sticky threads here:
Front Suspension (https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/111963-Front-Suspension-amp-Steering-Geometry-for-Track-Performance)
Rear Suspension (https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/111964-Rear-Suspension-amp-Geometry-for-Track-Performance)
Overall Handling (https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/111962-Overall-Handling-amp-Tuning-for-Track-Performance)
Measuring, Modifying & Improving Suspension Geometry (https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/98063-Need-a-little-help-figuring-something-out)
Aerodynamics (https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/101460-Designing-Aerodynamics-for-Track-Performance)
Safety for Pro-Touring Cars (https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/103597-Safety-for-Pro-Touring-Track-Cars)

Best wishes! :cheers:

[bovey]

Putting the weight masses inside the axles is more important than hitting a F/R weight bias number. Side to side is less critical, because the weight is inside the tire footprint.

Now you've got me thinking about my gas tank position. Based on the things you've taught in your workshops, plus the comment above - it makes little sense to put the gas tank behind the axel. Well, other than that being the furtherest location from the passenger compartment and the low placement in the chassis. When full it mast add a pile of weight to the wrong place.

However, to put it anywhere else raises it up higher in the body, affecting the c.g. For example, inside the box in the middle of the truck.

Or is it safer in the rear, behind the axel?

FYI - I'm upgrading to a proper fuel cell with a bladder, etc.

[Ron Sutton]

Now you've got me thinking about my gas tank position. Based on the things you've taught in your workshops, plus the comment above - it makes little sense to put the gas tank behind the axel. Well, other than that being the furtherest location from the passenger compartment and the low placement in the chassis. When full it mast add a pile of weight to the wrong place.

However, to put it anywhere else raises it up higher in the body, affecting the c.g. For example, inside the box in the middle of the truck.

Or is it safer in the rear, behind the axel?

FYI - I'm upgrading to a proper fuel cell with a bladder, etc.


If you can put the fuel cell or cells in front of the rear axle, you should. It will be beneficial to handling a couple ways.

[rustomatic]

This is a great discussion! It brings me to a quandary I've had regarding fuel tank placement in my Falcon, which has most of a 1992 Corvette chassis underneath. The original placement of the fuel tank in the C4 is at the rear-end of the car, kind of high up. I built some structure to use this same setup in my Falcon, however at a lower level, but much of the motivation for this came from wanting to use as many Corvette parts as possible. This was generally pointless. I've seen too many of these cars loop out hard on autocrosses (yes, lots of driver error, but possibly some pendulum effect from having the weight way back there). This tells me that a lower profile tank placed between the rear wheels (somewhat ahead of the axle) and more forward in the chassis would be beneficial for weight distribution, even if the overall height of the tank might go up a bit.

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[Peter Mc Mahon]

Mods, I think we are tying up Marks thread here. Can we have this as a separate thread?

[bovey]

Mods, I think we are tying up Marks thread here. Can we have this as a separate thread?

I'm cool. This was all based on the topic we were talking about for the truck and I am living this particular subject every day right now.

But if the Mods want to move this chunk out to make this it's own subject, that is cool too.

Whatever is best for the community.

[Ron Sutton]

This is a great discussion! It brings me to a quandary I've had regarding fuel tank placement in my Falcon, which has most of a 1992 Corvette chassis underneath. The original placement of the fuel tank in the C4 is at the rear-end of the car, kind of high up. I built some structure to use this same setup in my Falcon, however at a lower level, but much of the motivation for this came from wanting to use as many Corvette parts as possible. This was generally pointless. I've seen too many of these cars loop out hard on autocrosses (yes, lots of driver error, but possibly some pendulum effect from having the weight way back there). This tells me that a lower profile tank placed between the rear wheels (somewhat ahead of the axle) and more forward in the chassis would be beneficial for weight distribution, even if the overall height of the tank might go up a bit.

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Yup!

Ron Sutton

[Ethereal]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but any weight rearward of the front wheels will contribute to the pendulum effect once your rear wheels break free since the front wheels are then at the axis of rotation. The more rearward the weight, the faster it's motion and therefore the greater it's momentum and contribution to motion.

At the same time, placing weight further back contributes more weight to the rear wheels which should aid in traction and therefore reduce the chance of lift-off oversteer, especially since it's caused by weight transfer to the front of the vehicle. Which is more important? I would posit that *if* you're a good enough driver to avoid lift-off oversteer then the added traction would be more important.

[bovey]

Progress.

This in the engine is it's first location. I'm not 100% sure how far it has moved, as my reference points are no longer on the truck. I know, novice mistake.

It's well over the desired 12" back and at least 4" down - so this is win at this point. The front of the block is almost inline with the factory frame shock mounts. For height, originally the front cross bar was going to hit the heads. Turns out it's not an issue. But I may need to move the bar for the breather set-up.

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At first it did not seem that dramatic, but then I started looking at some old photos of when we first put this engine in.

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For example, the back of the block was about where the bolt in the mock block head is. Inside it looks as though the back of the block is almost inline with the where my stereo once was.

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We are currently double checking the scrub lines for the bell housing and a few other details before we call this the engine's permanent home. There are also some weird packaging issues, on the drivers side, the dry sump has been tricky. On the passenger side, the headers, engine mount and starter don't want to get along. There is more space with the engine here, but the components seem to want to occupy the exact same space. Always something to figure out.

[RobNoLimit]

WOW, that is "down and back"! With the dry sump, are you using a low profile bellhousing/flywheel/clutch with reverse mount starter? I thought about doing that, but the $$ changed my mind. Given the current level of competition I would do it that way if doing it over. The drop in CG would be worth it.

[Ron Sutton]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but any weight rearward of the front wheels will contribute to the pendulum effect once your rear wheels break free since the front wheels are then at the axis of rotation. The more rearward the weight, the faster it's motion and therefore the greater it's momentum and contribution to motion.

At the same time, placing weight further back contributes more weight to the rear wheels which should aid in traction and therefore reduce the chance of lift-off oversteer, especially since it's caused by weight transfer to the front of the vehicle. Which is more important? I would posit that *if* you're a good enough driver to avoid lift-off oversteer then the added traction would be more important.

That is incorrect.

[Ethereal]

Thanks, not quite what I meant by "Correct me" but I'll give it some thought.

[bovey]

WOW, that is "down and back"! With the dry sump, are you using a low profile bellhousing/flywheel/clutch with reverse mount starter? I thought about doing that, but the $$ changed my mind. Given the current level of competition I would do it that way if doing it over. The drop in CG would be worth it.

The bell housing is my limiting factor for engine height with the stock chassis. We had to raise the engine up a little after we double checked the scrub line. The up side is we found another 1.5" of room to move back further.

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The dry sump and pan have loads of room, I'm using a convention bell housing and starter. Like you, that gets into a entire other level of cost that I cannot justify at this time. This change is over achieving my goals for part of the build - the engine location is better that ever imagined. Sadly, that comes with having to build new headers and adjust the cage. The shifter might get interesting too...

Once the truck goes to the next level, I'm going to re-evaluate the goals and consider more compact bell housing, reverse mount starter, etc.

This is crazy enough for now and should give me room to grow as a driver.

FYI - the LS/t56 Quicktime SFI bell housing weights 24lbs, plus the bolts and front shield. Ouch. However, it is a work of art, I'd love to see the press that makes them, it must be massive.

[kingcrunch]

Awesome progress! I was stunned when i saw the pictures yesterday.

Does that affect braking balance?

[kingcrunch]

Oh, and what are you going to do about the shifter location?

[Dr G]

The bell housing is my limiting factor for engine height with the stock chassis. We had to raise the engine up a little after we double checked the scrub line.



If possible I would like to see a picture of your engine and transmission as a unit, taken from the side. So as to compare how low the dry sump pan sits relative to the bell housing and transmission.

For me, I run an automatic, and it has become apparent that any efforts to lower my engine will absolutely be limited by the AODE/4R70W, not the engine. I'd be throwing money away in fitting a dry sump only for the purpose of raising the oil pan height (proper oil supply during high G's not withstanding).

I am planning on fabricating a custom steel fluid pan for my AODE just so I can squeak every bit of clearance possible out of that area.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Gustave, what distance from your trans pan to the road?

[bovey]

If possible I would like to see a picture of your engine and transmission as a unit, taken from the side. So as to compare how low the dry sump pan sits relative to the bell housing and transmission.

For me, I run an automatic, and it has become apparent that any efforts to lower my engine will absolutely be limited by the AODE/4R70W, not the engine. I'd be throwing money away in fitting a dry sump only for the purpose of raising the oil pan height (proper oil supply during high G's not withstanding).

I am planning on fabricating a custom steel fluid pan for my AODE just so I can squeak every bit of clearance possible out of that area.


This is the only photo I have from the side. I'm standing, so the camera is higher than the engine, but it kinda gives you the idea.

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The dry sump is above the pan mounting surface and the dry sump pan itself is 2.125" deep. The bottom lip of the bell housing may have a date with a cut-off wheel.

[Dr G]

This is the only photo I have from the side. I'm standing, so the camera is higher than the engine, but it kinda gives you the idea.
OK Thanks Bovey.


The bottom lip of the bell housing may have a date with a cut-off wheel. Seems like a win-win.

[Dr G]

Gustave, what distance from your trans pan to the road?Peter, I cannot answer exactly as my truck is on jack stands right now, for the exact purpose of getting a little more ride height :)

I was going to give a long-winded answer, then realized this is not my thread. I'll add something to my own build thread about it soon.

Gustave

[hotrod56]

Peter, I cannot answer exactly as my truck is on jack stands right now, for the exact purpose of getting a little more ride height :)

I was going to give a long-winded answer, then realized this is not my thread. I'll add something to my own build thread about it soon.

Gustave


Hey Dr G. What ride height did you have and what problems with it. What are you raising it up to?

[bovey]

Someone, somewhere, asked for a photo from inside. Here it is. We are currently figuring out driver position.

134610

It's so much easier to do this without the firewall in the way, but there are still compromises. I'd love the seat to move over another inch, but the door bar gets in the way. We are still moving things around.

More soon.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Weren't you running Momo seats when you came to the Toyota car show Mark?

[Dr G]

Someone, somewhere, asked for a photo from inside. Here it is. We are currently figuring out driver position.

134610



I thought you might run into interference between the left cyl. head and your right foot toes (at WOT). Although not totally clear from the picture, it looks like you will be ok. Maybe your truck being quite wide helps in this regard.

Gustave

[bovey]

The 427 LSX is back (dyno'd too) from SDPC Raceshop! For fun, we are going to do a "Facebook live" unboxing and discussion tomorrow. Details below.

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As you know Performance Improvements, here is Canada help me a lot and they are super excited to see the engine. They also do a Facebook live series called "What's in the box" (think Seven, but for speed parts).

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They have asked me to do a live unboxing of the engine and discuss what and why has been done to it. One crate is the engine, the other is the Aviaid Dry Sump. I'll post a time later today, or check in with PI or the Targa Truck's Facebook page.

[bovey]

We are aiming for a live air time of 1PM EST. This is for fun, to try something different, we are far from pros!

There is now an added bonus, a PI customer's Edelbrock Supercharged Coyote has landed so we are going to unbox both my 427 LSX and the 5.0.

Final details:
Saturday, Dec. 3rd
1PM EST on facebook
Search for "Performance Improvements Speed Shops" to find us.

[bovey]

We did our live unboxing today. There were technical difficulties, but we rolled with the punches!

Here is what we opened up...

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I'll post a longer response with more photos. I need to cull my photos and edit them.

DYNO RESULTS! WOOT!

610.8 HP @ 6100
579.1 ft/lbs @ 5000/5100

Average HP from 4500 - 6500 rpm - 576.6
Average torque from 4500 - 6500 rpm - 548.3 ft/lbs

Today was a sobering day, I felt like a kid opening gifts. SDPC Raceshop were fabulous to deal with. The journey home was 1650 miles and everything arrives safe and sound.

[linkstar69]

Wicked

[andrewb70]

What's with the distributor?

Andrew

[bovey]

What's with the distributor?

Well, the short story is back in 2010, there were very few way to hide the look of an LS. My truck was a sleeper then, that I drag raced. I still run it because I can't afford to change it. That and I like it, people think it's a Pontiac engine for some reason. A number of people did not understand why I was at LS Fest...

[Centerforce]

Here is what we opened up...

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That is one pretty engine! :yum: We can't wait to see it all tucked in.

[bovey]

Hope everyone had a fabulous holiday. Lots going on in the land of the Targa Truck, sorry for being a little behind with an update. Life is busy.

We did the major hacking and mocked-in the LS engine.
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Ended up ditching the factory trans mount for weight saving and the engine is lower than stock, so this was just easier. It turned out really nice.
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The Speedway 9" floater is in. Super happy to have this kind of security under the truck.
136068

We did a test fit on my driving position and petal placement. These cabs are a little short on space, so we are caging and boxing the foot well to add about 8" more room.
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The RSRT spindles, Howe ball joints and Wilwood brakes were all bolt on to the stock parts. The only thing that was a pain was the 11/16" steering linkage, it had to mate to the 5/8" helm joints. In typical fashion I headed straight to the circle track parts guys and they have a sleeve to solve this. I'll do a more in-depth post on this later. I need to find the photos I took.
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I'm super happy with the Forgeline wheels, the build quality is amazing. The camera lens makes the brakes look small, they are 13.06" x 1.25"
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And this should give you an idea of the engine set-back. It's almost 18" back. Let's put it this way, there is roughly enough space to put a second engine in front of it.
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I spend yesterday re-measuring the rear suspension. Weighed it, and have to come up with a plan to keep the weight under control. The rear spring set-up is going to get interesting. Originally I thought it would be easier, but I had some mis-information... nothing a cut-off wheel and a welder can't solve.

The t56 is out for a re-fresh and I'm figuring out the shifter location - it'll have to bend forward to be useful or do a remote set-up like the Viper people do. I've also started designing the wiring system, I'm going to a modern PDM set-up. My tuner is a Motec dealer, so he going to aid the design and set-up.

More soon, the engine is just in the chassis as of a couple days ago and we are figuring out the new headers and exhaust.

[smbrouss70]

Wow! Keep the pictures coming!

[hotrod56]

Hey Bovey

Looks good. That is a lot of engine set back. How much room are you going to have for your feet? Any pics of the inside?

[bovey]

Looks good. That is a lot of engine set back. How much room are you going to have for your feet? Any pics of the inside?

Lot's of people ask about space for me feet. It's similar to a Viper or an AC Cobra. The throttle is roughly where the brake pedal once was, and the brake pedal and clutch are not that much further left than the factory set-up. Final seating placement has yet to be set, we've pushed the throttle as far right as we can. There is plenty of room for headers, more than in the factory location because the frame is wider here.

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[Mtrhd329]

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looks familiar! Mine is about the same. I had enough room to lay my radiator down almost flat and still have room in front of the motor. I had to move my brake pedal to the other side of the column amd make a new gas pedal and pedal mount. Its still very tight in there. Trans tunnel JUST clears the dash also. Looks good. Interested to see what else you do with it

[Dr G]

The Speedway 9" floater is in. Super happy to have this kind of security under the truck.
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I love it. Floaters are the way to go. And Speedway Engineering makes great stuff.



We did a test fit on my driving position and petal placement. These cabs are a little short on space, so we are caging and boxing the foot well to add about 8" more room.
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I sort of figured you'd end up doing something like that.



I'm super happy with the Forgeline wheels, the build quality is amazing. The camera lens makes the brakes look small, they are 13.06" x 1.25"
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Awesome. This would probably be the wheel I'd choose for myself.



And this should give you an idea of the engine set-back. It's almost 18" back. Let's put it this way, there is roughly enough space to put a second engine in front of it.
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Wow! Very cool.

[Ethereal]

On wheels/tires, is there a way to determine from a performance perspective the optimal wheel and tire size?

[bovey]

looks familiar! Mine is about the same. I had enough room to lay my radiator down almost flat and still have room in front of the motor. I had to move my brake pedal to the other side of the column amd make a new gas pedal and pedal mount. Its still very tight in there. Trans tunnel JUST clears the dash also. Looks good. Interested to see what else you do with it

The space is crazy. There's enough room for an extra engine. My final landing place puts the back side of the head/block just behind the dash. The doghouse will be a little funkier than I wanted. The only other side affect I did not think about was the driver position getting pushed to the left. I was only worried about the shifter going back, I forgot about it getting to far away as it is in the centre of the the truck.



On wheels/tires, is there a way to determine from a performance perspective the optimal wheel and tire size?

The short answer is yes. The easy answer is as you are in a forum where we are trying to make giant North American cars handle, you generally need all the tire you can fit/afford to make fit. If this were a Miata forum (for example) we'd be having a different conversation. With less mass and power, you need less tire. Too much tire on a car like a Miata will slow it down.

[Ethereal]

The space is crazy. There's enough room for an extra engine. My final landing place puts the back side of the head/block just behind the dash. The doghouse will be a little funkier than I wanted. The only other side affect I did not think about was the driver position getting pushed to the left. I was only worried about the shifter going back, I forgot about it getting to far away as it is in the centre of the the truck.




The short answer is yes. The easy answer is as you are in a forum where we are trying to make giant North American cars handle, you generally need all the tire you can fit/afford to make fit. If this were a Miata forum (for example) we'd be having a different conversation. With less mass and power, you need less tire. Too much tire on a car like a Miata will slow it down.

That makes sense wrt width but what about wheel diameter vs. tire height?

Could you have moved the engine/trans to the passenger side at all, or would that cause a weight inbalance?

[Dr G]

That makes sense wrt width but what about wheel diameter vs. tire height?

Could you have moved the engine/trans to the passenger side at all, or would that cause a weight inbalance?

That's what they do in Pro-2 and Pro-4 short track trucks (dirt racing with jumps). Unlike desert racers, they do not carry a passenger, and so can afford to move the engine way over to the right and way back. They might do it for balance during long hang time as much as for any handling benefits.

[bovey]

While we are on the topic of moving weight around, I might as well share this.

These are not exact, but they do illustrate the plan of attack. The engine/t56 weights are based on online research, everything else I have personally scaled.

First up, the original layout. The parts noted are the engine, t56, clutch/flywheel, battery, mufflers, BS3/MSD, and heater assembly

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The idea is to move the inside the footprint, the help calm down the pendulum affect. The other job is to move what can be moved to the back. The only thing under the dash with be the heater and well, the engine.

All of the electronics and wiring harness will be moved to the rear of the cab, I'm getting too old to crawl under the dash. As a matter of fact, I've always hated crawling under the dash. This is long overdue.

Based on my original weight, I need to move 200 lbs to the back and ideally loose 200 lbs over all. I'm aiming to subtract the 200 lbs from the middle and front only. With a steel body, achieving 50/50 is going to be a challenge, but we all knew that.

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I have yet to figure out the new fuel cell. Fuel Safe's product selection is massive and I don't understand the differences between their various tanks yet.

More soon.

[Mtrhd329]

The biggest issue i am running into is designing a removable engine and trans cover that still seals to the floor. Right now i have an aluminum frame skinned with .032 aluminum but i think it looks hideous. That coupled with moving the brske pedal over and rebuilding the gas pedal setup its cramped and ugly in there.

[Dr G]

I have yet to figure out the new fuel cell. Fuel Safe's product selection is massive and I don't understand the differences between their various tanks yet.

More soon.ATL is another fuel cell manufacturer to consider. They provide bladders only with provided plans for how to make your own housing out of steel or aluminum (for those so inclined).

http://atlinc.com/racing.html

[bovey]

The biggest issue i am running into is designing a removable engine and trans cover that still seals to the floor. Right now i have an aluminum frame skinned with .032 aluminum but i think it looks hideous. That coupled with moving the brske pedal over and rebuilding the gas pedal setup its cramped and ugly in there.

You might want to consider making it out of steel and skipping the frame. You can put an "L" channel around the perimeter of the floor and sandwich a fireproof weather strip, or just seam seal it lightly. I'm working through this very problem right now as well - fire needs to be treated with respect. Make sure to protect yourself from your transmission, now that you sit beside it.

You might want to consider hunting down a floor mount pedal set-up, that would solve your space problem. That, or go scavenge something out of an import RWD manual car get something from Datsun or a Toyota or maybe a Miata? Something that has solid race aftermarket support so you can get the MCs that will work with your brakes. Just a thought.


ATL is another fuel cell manufacturer to consider. They provide bladders only with provided plans for how to make your own housing out of steel or aluminum (for those so inclined). http://atlinc.com/racing.html

Ah yes, I had looked at them too. Thanks!

[bovey]

The engine and t56 are in. The amount of set-back was a little deceiving until the firewall started to get formed.
136620

With the firewall complete I can fit a 14"x3" filter, but I will need to get fresh air to it. I'm dreaming up some cowl snorkel ideas nows. More to come. The inside is super cool. the entire doghouse is pieces that overlap together to seal it and it all comes out for service and inspections.
136621

At this point I scaled it, just to see where we were at. It's 2915 lbs and 49.1/50.1. As mentioned above, it'll be tough to hit my 50/50 with a steel body, but I'm going to proceed with the factory body plan, for now. I have a few tricks, but to be honest I was hoping for a little better.
136622

This view gives you the best idea of where the engine landed.The back air cleaner reaches all the way under the dash.
136623

And finally, it's on the ground with an engine for the first time in 11 months. Ride height looks like it's going to work out nicely. I need to figure out a way to lighten the doors, full dress they are 81 lbs each.
136624

[Mtrhd329]

I gutted my doors and then started cutting the inner metal so everything inside where the panel would be is gone. I kept the handle and used a cable in olace of the rod. Factory wings will be replaced with lexan version i will make and a lexan side window will ride up and down the factory track with a leather strap as a pull to raise and lower. With the metal cut from the door and the window junk gone i lost like 40# each. I have been brainstorming of trying to lake some fiber glass ones.

Lookin good. Once i had my firewall in place i started getting scared about the first time i would need to work on the rear of the engine. Yours looks like its in the same spot as mine. Scary

[Ethereal]

What are you using as a crossmember to mount the motor? Something fabbed or off the shelf?

[bovey]

What are you using as a crossmember to mount the motor? Something fabbed or off the shelf?

Fabricated. And fair warning, almost everything on this truck at this point has be altered. There are a few things like the Tilton pedal box, or the Wilwood rotors or calipers, and small stuff, but basically anything that happens after post #314 is more than likely hand made, custom orderd or a modified off-the self piece. A bunch of the parts to "bolt-on", but that is because effort has been made to order them to do that. Cool?

[bovey]

Howdy,

I'm a little behind on updates. Sorry.

But I have a video to share! The update of having to build new headers was in the process Vibrant Performance caught wind of my project. I've used their products for years, but this time they wanted to stop by to shoot a video. You can also watch it on Facebook, but here is the youtube link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONrzp6BdRPU

I also recorded a podcast for the series "The Bucket Seat" which will come out in a while. It's a really cool series, super happy to be a part of it. The creators had been following the truck for a couple years, turned out we lived in the same city. Such a small world.

Progress on the truck is moving along. Behind, but I'm mostly happy with everything.

More soon.

[hotrod56]

Great Video.

[Dr G]

Great Video.
Ditto. I enjoyed it!

[kingcrunch]

A thing that struck me while i was scrounging around in my trucks cab, wondering what would have to be moved or replaced in order to do an engine relocation:
What kind of heater are you going to use? Or do you want to ditch that entirely?

[bovey]

A thing that struck me while i was scrounging around in my trucks cab, wondering what would have to be moved or replaced in order to do an engine relocation:
What kind of heater are you going to use? Or do you want to ditch that entirely?

A heater is kinda overkill now, given the proximity of the engine, headers and t56. However, I do to need a defroster because I have to run no matter what some days, rain, or shine, or even snow.

I have a super cute 16000 BTU heater from Northern Radiator to handle the defrosting, it weighs 4.6 lbs dry. It's small and has a three speed SPAL squirrel fan on it. BUT, I've also just found out about defrost strips that you can stick on the perimeter of the windshield. And if you want to get really fancy and blow a crap loaf of money, apparently you can have a custom windshield made with the defrost strips built in.

138502

[brawls43]

For our racecar, we're going with rear window style defroster. Another team running a BMW E36 M3, we saw running the Bimmerworld kit, and it wasn't as bad as I thought to look through. http://www.bimmerworld.com/BimmerWorld-Front-Windshield-Defroster-Kit.html

Turns out the kit looked the same as another universal kit I had found from Frost Fighter. So I measured up our windshield and just ordered one the other day. I think I got the 18.75" high, and our windshield is roughly 46-54" wide varying top to bottom. I'll post some pics once its installed if you're interested. We were trying to shed every last pound possible as well, and having a heater core and fans just seemed like dead weight considering we only needed every 3rd or 4th race a year.
http://www.frostfighter.com/clear-view-defroster-order-guide.htm

[bovey]

I'll post some pics once its installed if you're interested.

Absolutely, please share. So curious about these kits. Very interested to see how noticeable they are once installed.

[Steve-O-08]

Got the driver's seat brackets in and the side mount brackets bolted up. Decided to drill another set of holes in the Atomic brackets for my side mounts. I may still do another set of side mount plates, but the old ones will do the job for now.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2017/03/IMG_4065_zpsd0ndyd3u-1.jpg (http://s1139.photobucket.com/user/Stephen_Komlos/media/IMG_4065_zpsd0ndyd3u.jpg.html)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2017/03/IMG_4068_zpshi0acico-1.jpg (http://s1139.photobucket.com/user/Stephen_Komlos/media/IMG_4068_zpshi0acico.jpg.html)

Also ditched my orange (now peach) latch-type harnesses for the set of Crow cam locks that Claudia got me for Christmas. Just needed a couple bolts for the brackets and I'll have the passenger side in too.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2017/03/IMG_4063_zps9pcruxig-1.jpg (http://s1139.photobucket.com/user/Stephen_Komlos/media/IMG_4063_zps9pcruxig.jpg.html)

Pretty snazzy if I do say so.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2017/03/IMG_4067_zpsrlzf0w2v-1.jpg (http://s1139.photobucket.com/user/Stephen_Komlos/media/IMG_4067_zpsrlzf0w2v.jpg.html)

[bovey]

The new seats look great Steve. I'm assuming this update was intended for you thread? I've miss clicked a few times myself!

So, we finished part one of fabrication a few weeks ago. Originally part 2 was just finishing the exhaust, but a number of things have changed in the last week. We are making more changes to the front end suspension and I'm going to extend the 'cage through the firewall to pick-up points around the front suspension and maybe reach down to tie in the engine mounts. Might box the frame in a couple of places, we'll see.


The interior is mostly together, I still need to finalize the seat position. The door bar does not agree with the shape of my new Sparco Seat, the Momo fit perfectly. It'll be worth it in the end as this seat has the removable wings which will be nicer for non-track events.
138691

Extending the footwell was a genius idea. This cab was never big enough for me. With the Woodward column, Tilton pedal box and Sparco seat, it feels great. The shifter location is a little bit of a mystery at the moment, it's currently mid-thigh and might be too far rearward. It's an easy fix with a shifter that bends forward.
138692

The '90s Grant is just for mock-up. But it brings back warm memories of my buddy's Monte Carlo. I can hear Van Halen every time I hold it.

138690

Out back, the 9" floater is in and the pan hard is done. I could not hit my exact measurements due to the frame design. After going through all of this, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND doing No Limit's plan on raising the frame rails. This has been too much work for the end result. I still may end up tearing this apart again.

138689

And we are done. We blew it apart for paint. The alignment is off, but this photo gives a clear visual of steering ackerman.

138687

The headers are done and they are awesome. They are currently out having a Cerkote heat insulating coating applied. Cerkote makes special coatings for firearms and they also make some crazy high temp exhaust products. We've come up with a club sandwich of heat barriers for the exhaust and doghouse that I'll explain when it's all done.

138688

The truck is currently out of paint and in re-assembly mode.

[cmccuneusaf]

Just went through all of this! It is amazing!

So much inspiration for my build, ill just be on a much smaller scale!

[bovey]

Just went through all of this! It is amazing! So much inspiration for my build, ill just be on a much smaller scale!

Thank you very much. This was just a small scale build at one time too. You have to start somewhere.

This as it sits was never the long term plan, but here it is. Things just kept happening, and even more is coming.

[Ethereal]

Hey Bovey, do you have a schematic of how you wired up and routed your battery quick disconnect by chance?

[bovey]

Hey Bovey, do you have a schematic of how you wired up and routed your battery quick disconnect by chance?


No. I do not but it's easy. You just need to put the cut-off in line on your main feed to your fuze panel (positive) or put in in line one the negative. Read your sanctioning rules some have specific locations and preference to positive or negative. on my current build version I'm running an internal positive shut-off inside the cab and a negative shut-off on the rear to pass 2 different tech inspectors.

[bovey]

Things have changed.

First. We have paint! YAY. It's way nicer than most of the truck. The paint on the box is still awesome. But the rest of cab, doors and fenders paint job is pushing 20 years and could use some love. But not now.

139584

Did a test fit on the body panels and checked the weight, it's still promising. The numbers are totally mealiness, but body and chassis only it's about 47/53 and around 2450 lbs. Zero drivetrain and not much interior. Zero electrical. It'll get heavy fast.
139585

And we are on the move. This is were the story of the Targa Truck changes. Changes in a way I never planned.
139586

Way back when I found the Tranzilla t56, it was coming from a race team, a place called Mantella Autosport. They had campaigned a pair of Pratt and Miller Z28Rs. Due to BOP restrictions, they have moved to racing KTM XBow GT4 race cars. Randomly one afternoon, I met the owner in the parking lot of my local speed shop, Performance Improvements. Turns out, he was a fan of the truck and invited me out to let me sort through their spare parts and buy whatever would work.

During that process of going through the parts, we spoke about doing some work together. I wanted help with fussy stuff like brake set-up and clutch set-up, in the end we decided to work together on the truck. FYI, the '69 Z28 has a full chassis and the IRS from a CTSV-R under it...

139587

So, as of now. The Transzilla is rebuilt.
139589

Here everything is being test fitted. I get into this more in my next update.
139588

We did decide to make one additional change. Over the process of this rebuild, it's gone a little further down the rabbit hole than planned. After some thought we decided the 200,000 mile upper A-arms and reproduction lower A-arms may not be up to the task. We discussed sand blasting and magna-fluxing the parts, but I was not a huge fan of the time, money and energy that would result in little performance gain.

So, I called No Limit and talked to Rob about his Wide Ride IFS. Seriously people, this kit has serious bang of the buck, so I bought one.

139592

I did a quick test fit when it arrived. We are installing it now and it fits amazing.
139591

More soon.

[smbrouss70]

Cool! I've always liked what Rob puts out, and that suspension is on my short list for my truck. Is that No Limit setup going to work with your RSRT spindles and brakes?

[Ethereal]

Also, did you opt for the R&P?

[kingcrunch]

Just an idea for the core support i wanted to share with you:

The Core support has large flat surfaces of sheet metal. I plan on replacing these with carbon fiber panels, simple pain flat panels, cut to fit.
Just a few pounds more off the front...

[bovey]

Cool! I've always liked what Rob puts out, and that suspension is on my short list for my truck. Is that No Limit setup going to work with your RSRT spindles and brakes?

I tried the spindles and they will not work. Sadly, the combination of the spindles I had made and the Wide Ride IFS net in a minimum camber of 7.5 degrees and a ride height that sits on the ground. I'll explain this in more detail soon. the brakes will work, maybe the hubs.




Also, did you opt for the R&P?

Yes, No Limit's Wide Ride kit comes with a R&P.



Just an idea for the core support i wanted to share with you:

The Core support has large flat surfaces of sheet metal. I plan on replacing these with carbon fiber panels, simple pain flat panels, cut to fit.
Just a few pounds more off the front...

Cool. Thanks. I have some ideas too about the rad support. With the amount of changes I've made up from I need to build the cage though the firewall now. I'm thinking the rad will be built into this structure, which means the rad support will only be holding up the body and can be much, much lighter. I have an idea for how to design the front end assembly, but we'll see if I have time to mess with it this year.

[kingcrunch]

Please share your ideas, i am all ears!

[Dr G]

More pics please. Love to watch this build.