Need opinions, for Project Prodigy [Archive]

ProdigyCustoms

09-10-2005, 05:53 AM

OK, I need opinions. Long story short, the motor we were going to run in Prodigy was an old motor I had. It never really ran right, so we tore it down. Upon tear down we found some bad news in the block, cylinder wall taper. The rotating assembly is perfect and new, so we are getting a new block. A Bill Mitchell Aluminum block!

So now we have a 11th hour decision. We can build the motor NA, no ProCharger, and save 225lbs off the nose and a lot of fabrication issues. I could build it 700HP easy and put some laughing gas on it and easily see 1000HP, or ProCharger it and see the same 1000HP.

Either way it will be fuel injected and all aluminum. My dilemma is it really seems to be a high end PT car, it really needs to be Forced induction. But I hate the bad weight of the intercooler hanging in front of the radiator, that's horrible weight, and the ProCharger hangs off the front of the head, more bad weight. So losing the 225 off the nose will go a LONG ways towards better weight balance. The ProCharger is about 80LBS.

Realistically, 700HP would be PLENTY, but in a world full of 1000HP cars, it needs to have it. Nitrous is no problem for us, very familiar with it, I can get a fogger for it easy. But does it belong on a PT Car?
It really was not even a consideration until we ran into the aluminum block deal, and the chance to ditch the extra weight. It will weigh less then an iron / aluminum head small block. Plus Nitrous puts 30LBS in the trunk to help even more balancing things.

So please vote, and I would really appreciate it if I got some comments from everyone, especially some of you that play with higher end PT cars, you know who you are. I do not want to kill the wow appeal, or value, even though it is not for sale. It still matters.

Just so you remember. Prodigy is full framed 67 RS / SS Convertible, C4 suspension, Double adjustable QA1s, 14" 6 piston Wilwoods all around, 12" wide 295 / 30 / 19s up front, 14" wide 345 / 25 / 20s out back, TKO 600, 500" all aluminum big block, four C5 buckets, Leather, custom one off dash, full console, power everything, video, navigation, etc. It is really a everything car. So I do not want to cheat it. Also, we do plan to enter it is exhibition of speed events, so it needs to work.

1970cuda

09-10-2005, 06:41 AM

go with the bottle. personally i think a fogger kit looks killer. worst case you can put the charger on later and jet the fogger way down and use it as a chemical innercooler. you just don't see nicely laid out fogger systems any more. there is a lot of work getting all the individual lines to looks good (run parrallel etc.) just my two cent work. either way if you don't like how it turns out i would be willing to take the car off your hands so that you don't have to look at it...... :seizure:

69Nova

09-10-2005, 06:56 AM

If a ProCharger system weighs 225lbs I would go NA with the help of nitrous. Because if you plan on driving the car hard on a track 1000HP would make no sense (and you would probly put the tire store owner's kid through college).

Just my 2 cents.
Andrew Petty

steemin

09-10-2005, 07:05 AM

Frank,
I am not a high end builder. I am just a guy that loves cars.
Let me start by saying that I do not believe for a second that Prodigy needs 1,000 Hp to take its place as a high end elite PT car.
In this regard the design and execution of your car stands on its own.
Furthermore I really do not get the "I have a 1000 hp street car" mentality.
Yes I love lots of power but only if it is truly usable power.
For me 700 N/A HP works. :)
Scott

ProdigyCustoms

09-10-2005, 07:19 AM

225LBS is the total I will lose going from a planed iron block ProCharged motor to a Aluminum block Nitrous motor. The motor itself is 150LBS lighter, about half weight. The Procharger / nitrous difference is 80LBS, but the ProCharger is a horrible weight hanging in front of the suspension, And the nitrous move 30LBS to the trunk, so it efectivly is a 110LB weight balance difference. I bet the car is super close to the magic 50/50 balance without the blower. According to my math, best estimate will put her at 3100LBS wet, so its pretty light anyway.

suh weet

09-10-2005, 07:49 AM

Frank, I am by no means a pro car builder, so take it for what it is worth. Build the car for what you will be doing with it. If you take it to an open road event, what speed do you want to run? I don't know what kind of difference 300hp makes in an event like that, but you really couldn't use a painkiller (nitrous) system. On an open track day, you can't use the juice to much. Nothing beats the wow factor of either a supercharger or a nice set of turbos, though. It is your car, my vote is build it for what you or your son will be using the car most for. Don't let the car take on it's own identity. Like I said, take it for what it is worth. You have been doing this kind of thing for a hell of alot longer than me. Whatever you decide, I'm sure it will be the right decision!

F70t/a

09-10-2005, 07:54 AM

ProCharger :enguard:

MuscleRodz

09-10-2005, 08:40 AM

You need a "C" ""needs neither" in your poll. I don't care for bottles unless you are a stop light racer and they have to be refilled all the time. The Procharger is an unlimited supply of extra go when you want it. Personally the Procharger is not a deal breaker on the car. It has plenty of WOW factor without 1000+ hp.

Mike

yody

09-10-2005, 08:42 AM

screw both, just build a nasty stroker BBC, you can get an easy 800 horse from a 540 with "decent" street manners. I wouldnt go with spray or the procharger, I would build a motor with a peaky torque curve also, use big everything, that way the motor will be somewhat usable on the street. The procharger is heavy and overdone and is going to create way too much torque instantly. Look at Big red, it is NA

68protouring454

09-10-2005, 08:58 AM

franks getting a 454 block, and already has the stroker crank brand new 4340 peice, so it will be 496 or there abouts, which is still plenty of cubes
i say alum block n/a all the way
jake

yody

09-10-2005, 08:59 AM

hmmmm, should of went with the 4.500 bore block.....

Martin71RS

09-10-2005, 09:08 AM

Frank, 700 is enough as it is... why follow other "high end" PT cars... you are building yours with your vision....

if you "need" the extra HP, go for procharger... since power will allways be available...hitting nitrous and noticing you have an empty bottle when you need it is not "high end" IMO.

so I vote for "C" none of the above.
Martin

Mean 69

09-10-2005, 10:17 AM

Frank, this is really not a personal knock on you, at all, but

you are building yours with your vision

Why are you asking others what YOU should do to YOUR car? Are you building it for your own enjoyment, or to please or woo others? I suppose if you are building a car that is intended to be a show winning car, you would want to inquire what the judges deem popular (funny side note, my buddy took a local car show trophy because a cool custom twin tubular air cleaner, the judge thought he had twin turbos. Should have seen his face when he told him that he didn't).

I'm sorry, but it just frustrates me to read the threads from folks asking others what they should do on their cars, I just feel that you should build the car the way YOU want.

I'd doubt that you'd be able to go any faster with 1k HP than you would with 700, or even 550 honest HP on a road course. Unless your name is (was) Mark Donahue.

M

Pzary3233

09-10-2005, 10:20 AM

Supersharged is always cool but with 700 horses N/A do you really need it?? I would think it would just be overkill and more motor than needed in any situation... Either way it's still an awesome car... I agree with the guys about nitrous though... empty bottles would suck!

Paul Z.

Roger Poirier

09-10-2005, 11:19 AM

Frank,
Let me start by saying that I do not believe for a second that Prodigy needs 1,000 Hp to take its place as a high end elite PT car.
In this regard the design and execution of your car stands on its own.
Furthermore I really do not get the "I have a 1000 hp street car" mentality.
Yes I love lots of power but only if it is truly usable power.
For me 700 N/A HP works. :)
Scott

Agreed! Frank the car is a work of art. No since putting useless horsepower in a vehicle you can't use.

R.P.

ProdigyCustoms

09-10-2005, 11:50 AM

hmmmm, should of went with the 4.500 bore block.....

It's a long story, but I have a 496 crate motor I bought, it had 1000 miles on it, that really never ran right. The engine builder told the buyer to screw off, and I against a noew motor and replaced his motor with a motor from us. Come to find out at tear down, it had 8 to 10 thous clearance and taper, and the pistons were falling over, which I kind of expected. It's already 60 over. The rotating assembly is killer and the psitons are fine. So, I am changing the set up with a whack on the heads, a roller and some porting she will easily go 700+

I would only out the hit on it for drag racing as Michael would be hungry for power at the dragstrip. He is used to driving a low 9 second 900HP car since his 15th B Day, so it will take some real power to please him. But you are absolutly correct on a road coarse, nitrous is useless. On the street to as I suspect it will kill the 345s on motor.

I only ask opinions because this car is Michaels, but it is also a calling card and I want to be sure to attract attention.

I am very curious to see what Steve thinks since he has his finger on the trends button.

67Sally

09-10-2005, 12:08 PM

Show us what you guys can build on motor only and save the rest for ruture upgrades.
W.

Damn True

09-10-2005, 01:33 PM

No bottle, no procharger. 700 is plenty. 700 is nearly as much as any modern trans-am car runs. You won't be able to put down any more power than that so what would be the point?

Nine Ball

09-10-2005, 02:36 PM

Nitrous installs don't have the visual "wow!" factor unless they are a nice direct-port layout. The ProCharger will attract more eyes, since it is something to look at. Forced induction cars are attention getters, and I know that you are looking for maximum exposure.

As for the "700hp is enough" replies, keep in mind that this car isn't being built for practicality or grocery-getting. Its a SEMA car, and is supposed to be extreme. Cars at SEMA are typically the most extreme builds of them all, tough competition for those cameras and media guys if you show up with "only" 700 hp. ;)

PS, there are Honda Civics at SEMA with 1000 hp. That should motivate you some haha.

primate

09-10-2005, 03:26 PM

go for the gas.

700 hp is an enormous amount. i have seen 400 hp cars whoop up on high hp cars at the track. as you know, its only as fast as your suspension and tires will let you go.

but for the strip, the bottle would be awesome!!!!

run 2 10 lb'ers in the back for better weight distribution. :)

either way, i know its going to be incredible.

primate

09-10-2005, 03:31 PM

also, its different.. pro touring is almost starting to get cookie cutter. forced induction and tt2's are taking over the joint, lol.

a dual stage fogger setup would be visually intimidating as hell. :drool: :evil:

slowcamaro

09-10-2005, 04:46 PM

procharge it and throw some more weight in the back to balance it out...all the sema cars have huge stereos anyhow, right? LOL

SatisTraction

09-10-2005, 05:03 PM

if you want some WOW factor then do a small twin turbo set up. that is really stepping it up and the power will be there too!!!

BRIAN

09-10-2005, 07:00 PM

Every high end Pro Tour or Pro anything else these days has high tech type engine. To me nothing beats a regular high hp motor. But as you know at any show everybody is looking for the wow factor.

I don't care what anybody says these cars are being built for the looks and performance. If you are trying to showcase work go high tech. If you are looking to lay some heavy numbers and impress yourself go with Nitrous motor.

yody

09-10-2005, 07:05 PM

So this car is one big fat write off...:) ?? Well I would still go with 540, the block shouldn't be much more money, the only thing you would need is the rods and pistons. I think a fogger kit would be cool also. I don't think a procharger looks all that great, I've seen a million of them, looks like a mustang 5.0 with a vortech. Just do a really killer engine bay.

Jim Nilsen

09-10-2005, 07:28 PM

From my years of looking at this problem you are having is to break it down into segments of need and reality.

300hp divided by 80lbs is one heck of a power to weight ratio so going with the charger is great deal of power for the money invested. You don't have to go somewhere to fill it up and if done right the computer can be detuned and retuned to make the power you want when you want it.

Next on the list is balance. With more power you can add weight to the rear and get it back along with needed traction. With the extra power you have the same power to weight ratio aspect going on again as above.

As for high speed adventure you will need the extra weight to keep the car having traction and keep it stable. In 1967 LeVan Prothero went to Bonneville and set the record at over 200mph with a big block and a car that had more than 1000lbs more weight in it to add for ballast and traction. You have to compliment power with weight at speed. Remember that top speed is based on drag and overall horsepower and weight has nothing to do with it other than how long it takes to get to top speed and without enough traction the hand of god will hold you back.

I vote for the Procharger and let it pull it's own weight and use the weight that it has to the advantage instead of looking at it as a disadvantage.

NOS also has so many problems that arise and blow up motors that it is an invitation to disaster in my book anytime you go with it just to save somewhere else. It has it place and can't be discarded from racing where it helps you out in a class that has rules and stiff competition but for a car like yours I would pass the gas refilling bottle and just turn up the boost to take up the burden of the extra weight.Plus it has been proven time again that by the end of a season the amount of money spent filling a bottle habit can pay for a blower or a turbo in most extreme cases .

Jim Nilsen

Steve Chryssos

09-10-2005, 08:52 PM

Run the go-juice. Yer outta time!!

ProdigyCustoms

09-10-2005, 10:22 PM

Run the go-juice. Yer outta time!!

Man ain't that the truth. SEMA is tomorrow! I do not like the idea of adding weght to get balance when it is already 3000LBS +. If it was 2500LBS, yeah, maybe. I think since we are losing the nose weight with the aluminum block, we are going for lightweight and balance. 700+HP and 3100LBS it already has power to weight to run bottom 10s (if it hooked) and 200MPH, the hit would push it deep in the 9s and faster top speed then we would drive it.

Steve68

09-11-2005, 05:10 AM

Procharge it, FI it, take it to the track and whip Bulls ass, and then drive it home,

Steve Chryssos

09-11-2005, 06:27 AM

Lots of folks say Procharger--and they're not wrong, but fitting the intercooler can be a real challenge and SEMA really is just around the corner. So Frank and Michael are living through the insanity of a real world "Discovery Channel" deadline. 18 hour high pressure days workdays PLUS suppliers and outside labor dropping the ball PLUS unforseen "do-overs" PLUS time required to haul the car from FLA to Vegas.
When you get parts for "FREE" you have to live up to commitments. The parts are NEVER free. They are exchanged for exposure. It's gotta roll, stop, steer and fire. If you show up at SEMA with parts, hoses and wires missing and holes where parts are supposed to be, it reflects badly on the car builder. It's just a whole different level of car construction and it sucks.

So the poll really looks like this:
What should I do:
A. Git 'er done: 100%
B. Screw the pooch: 0%

Charley Lillard

09-11-2005, 07:47 AM

Your latches should arrive soon....

ProdigyCustoms

09-11-2005, 08:39 AM

Procharge it, FI it, take it to the track and whip Bulls ass, and then drive it home,

Wouldn't that be funny. I already kicked his ass with the pump gas NOS 404 when he had the 14.5 to 1, nitrous injected 468 in it. Now to kick his ass with a ProCharged G machine to his ProCharged 19 X 32 Pro Street car, that would be hilarious! He would be on suicide watch, LOL! He still isn't over the last few races, ROFLMAO!
Read the CFL board, we just had a favorite win thread, of coarse he is it, LOL!

ProdigyCustoms

09-11-2005, 08:40 AM

Your latches should arrive soon....

Much appreciated sir.

Jim Nilsen

09-11-2005, 08:49 AM

I think you need the laughing gas in more than one way now that it is more clear about the deadline for you. If you don't make it in time someone can at least open the bottle in the room and put an involuntary smile on your face LOL.

I really don't think that 80 more lbs up front is that negative of a problem. A lot of cars here have it worse than that and some weigh another 200 lbs more. And unless your parked on the scales who is going to know besides you and everyone you tell?

I have never heard the numbers for the Mule as far as the f/r balance but it sure looks like it is heavier than your problem and noone has ever condemed the Mule for it that I have ever heared.

So goodluck on meeting your deadline no matter what you decide.

Jim Nilsen

chicane67

09-11-2005, 11:09 AM

ProCharger or no Procharger.............

Dont you hate playing 'keep up with the Jones' ?

I can remember ole' Dickeypoo Guldstrand making an excellent point while throwing down some In-n-Out at lunch one day...... "You can make all the horsepower and torque you want, but if you can not hook it up, turn it or stop it..... your a dead man."

700 is plenty and it always gives you time for other mods later to make more power. You have a deadline and no matter what you show up with, your gonna get the respect you deserve. Even, if you dont have your 'keep up with the Jones' Procharger to make 1khp. With your weight advantage, just late brake them into a turn and keep the transitional mass undercontrol with less effort. You'll beat the 1khp guys everytime....

ProdigyCustoms

09-11-2005, 11:58 AM

The deadline is not an issue, were there no matter which way we go. We already have the ProCharger, I am sure I can get the NOS from Holley in no time. Damn all that wiring for progressive, retard, switchs.
Ugh.

Maybe N/A? FugIt! If a 700+ HP all alluminum big block in a 3100LB car doesn't do it, to hell with them!

There, ya like that better?

Charley Lillard

09-11-2005, 12:33 PM

I do......

Martin71RS

09-11-2005, 01:19 PM

Frank, good to see you came to your senses.....If people see the car they won't miss the extra 300HP IMO

chicane67

09-11-2005, 01:26 PM

Exactly....

PairOf69's

09-11-2005, 01:31 PM

I say a big honkin F3R Procharger! :git:

Jim Nilsen

09-11-2005, 07:31 PM

I think it sounds great N/A. With all of the other mods and fine craftmanship I don't think I will ever remember that you were worried about all of this.

I am looking forward to seeing it at SEMA and don't want to miss it. Do you know what space you will be in. SEMA is so big and I only have 2.5 days to it all and last year I never did see everything I wanted to.

Now you can get some rest and worry about things like what are dessert will look like this year :lol:

Jim Nilsen

parsonsj

09-11-2005, 08:56 PM

700 hp not enough? You're kidding, right?

Go n/a, get the car done and concentrate on the finishing details. That's more important, I think.

jp

toddshotrods

09-11-2005, 11:17 PM

I voted for NOS, but I agree that it's more important to get it done N/A first. If you get everything finished and still have time left start the nitrous setup on a second manifold. If you get it finished in time to do the wiring, bottle(s), lines, etc, in time you can add it. If not, it'll be well under way for some low-nine passes a few months after the big shindig.

rob07002

09-12-2005, 06:36 AM

Frank go with the procharger.... Ineed to ask you a question on minitubbing the vert PM sent

Travis B

09-12-2005, 08:24 AM

Frank I have the solution to your problems Build it N/A 700hp is plenty....Then send the Procharger to me for my LS1!

see solves all of your problems :lmao:

ProdigyCustoms

09-12-2005, 08:55 AM

Yody is the big winner today. He gets his way. It will be a 540 N/A motor with a NOS hit. Since it had dish piston for the blower, I have to buy pistons anyway, so I am going to go ahead and make it a 540CI. 10.7 to 1, Looking for a easy 750HP NA, and I am still waiting to here from Holley to find out if the NOS will work with the Commander.

I still think the ProCharger is a fantastic blower, but in this case I just do not want the weight and plumbing issues

yody

09-12-2005, 09:11 AM

what do i win? Make a new post and maybe we can help you choose the components! Make it a 500 horse fogger with all the electric do-dads

parsonsj

09-12-2005, 09:25 AM

Perfect. Now get that damned car done. :cheers:
jp

Steve Chryssos

09-12-2005, 09:49 AM

Aluminum block and heads with FI? I'd step up to 11.5:1CR.

parsonsj

09-12-2005, 11:06 AM

I'd step up to 11.5:1CR.

Are you assuming knock detection and a computer with timing retard? I'm asking because the boys building mine (427 LS2) are being more conservative than that, but they're not using a knock sensor.

jp

68protouring454

09-12-2005, 11:20 AM

tony at afr wants me to pull all of 11-1 i can out of my cast block, afr headed 454, i would say he wants to push 11.5, as it will get rid of heat so much faster then cast
jake

yody

09-12-2005, 12:54 PM

I have 10.7-1 with al head and cast block, it pings in 6th gear when i lug it on 91 octane, i don't think the FI kit he is using has a knock sensor, I would do 10.5-1/11-1 MAX you won't get that much more power plus if you want to resell it at some point you don't want a motor that detonates if someone has to use 91 octane

RobM

09-12-2005, 02:22 PM

all i can say is can you adopt me???? i've clearly had a deprived childhood :rolleyes5

ProdigyCustoms

09-12-2005, 02:32 PM

It's a pain, to get the pistons today, I had to use these SRPs to avoid mega dollar, custom order, and wait. At 10.7, I may squeeze a couple out more out of it, but hate to whack the heads too much. I am already cutting them down to 115 or so.. I may be able to go to 112, but I do not want to ruin them. My only other option besides custom was a big dome and big gasket, and I hate that. I like Zero deck and let the combustion Chamber do its job.

Heads are gone to the porter, hes looking at nearly 390CFM with killer average numbers, so were thinking 750HP easy, and enough torque to for a pulling truck.

Maybe I will run it through Yodys desk top dyno!

The nitrous is looking grime right now, Looks like the fuel rails may interfere with the throttle body, and I want to lower the throttle body, not raise it. We'll see when it gets here.

Steve Chryssos

09-12-2005, 02:34 PM

....I have 10.7-1 with al head and cast block, it pings in 6th gear..........

Yody,
Uhh..If I make a statement based on aluminum heads and and an aluminum block, why would counter with a statement regarding aluminum/iron? Please don't offer your iron/aluminum, carbureted 468 for comparison. I was very clear: aluminum/aluminum/FI.
Jake is right: Given the greater heat dissipation qualities of an aluminum/aluminum combination plus the improved fuel atomization of fuel injection, you can run more static compression. The rest is just digital air/fuel calibration, cam overlap, and proper ignition timing.

JP,
In the case of your LS engine, I would definitely consider tweaking the compression. The smaller bore and inline valve configuration of your LS engine allows for a more efficient chamber/piston design and easier flame propagation than a big 4.500" bore canted valve big block. But your "boys" are as sharp as they come, so I respect their conservative wisdom. It will probably pay off during that long trip to nowhere when you realize that you low on fuel and there's nothing but bad gas around.
That Frank fella, on the other hand--he's kind of a wildman. I rather expect him to push things a little closer to the edge.
/Steevo

ProdigyCustoms

09-12-2005, 03:08 PM

That Frank fella, on the other hand--he's kind of a wildman. I rather expect him to push things a little closer to the edge.
/Steevo

I resemble that remark, and appreciate it! I will try to sneak up on the compression. The FI set up does not come with a knock sensor but can add one, but a basic cranking compression test and plug reading will do it for me. Interesting enough, the FI can be run in such a way I can run a tighter LC cam then I originally thought, and bleed some of the cylinder pressure. Make it a bit softer on the bottom (not a bad thing), and wilder up top.

Talking to the cam companies today, they crack me up. It simply amazes me how radically different each persons recommendation can be, even in the same company!

LTorres

09-12-2005, 04:09 PM

I resemble that remark, and appreciate it! I will try to sneak up on the compression. The FI set up does not come with a knock sensor but can add one, but a basic cranking compression test and plug reading will do it for me. Interesting enough, the FI can be run in such a way I can run a tighter LC cam then I originally thought, and bleed some of the cylinder pressure. Make it a bit softer on the bottom (not a bad thing), and wilder up top.

Talking to the cam companies today, they crack me up. It simply amazes me how radically different each persons recommendation can be, even in the same company!

Frank,
I say Pro-Charge.....heck I don't know..:dunno: but if you need help stopping call me. I am sure what ever route you take it will perform well. I am always anxious to see what you guys are working on!

NUBREED

09-12-2005, 06:06 PM

I SAY IF YOUR GONNA BE A BEAR , BE A GRIZZLY--PUT THEM BOTH ON..BUT YOU KNEW I WOULD SAY THAT.... :jawdrop:

ScotI

09-12-2005, 06:53 PM

I SAY IF YOUR GONNA BE A BEAR , BE A GRIZZLY--PUT THEM BOTH ON..BUT YOU KNEW I WOULD SAY THAT....

:lmao:

ProdigyCustoms

09-13-2005, 07:03 AM

Frank go with the procharger.... Ineed to ask you a question on minitubbing the vert PM sent

Rob, i did not get a Pm. E mail me at [email protected] or call four zero seven 832 1752.

rob07002

09-13-2005, 07:39 AM

Frank, email sent.....Thanks

Quickstreet

09-13-2005, 08:18 AM

Go for the GAS , You dont have to cut it on unless you need it. Just my opion .

yody

09-13-2005, 08:53 AM

Yody,
Uhh..If I make a statement based on aluminum heads and and an aluminum block, why would counter with a statement regarding aluminum/iron? Please don't offer your iron/aluminum, carbureted 468 for comparison. I was very clear: aluminum/aluminum/FI.
Jake is right: Given the greater heat dissipation qualities of an aluminum/aluminum combination plus the improved fuel atomization of fuel injection, you can run more static compression. The rest is just digital air/fuel calibration, cam overlap, and proper ignition timing.

JP,
In the case of your LS engine, I would definitely consider tweaking the compression. The smaller bore and inline valve configuration of your LS engine allows for a more efficient chamber/piston design and easier flame propagation than a big 4.500" bore canted valve big block. But your "boys" are as sharp as they come, so I respect their conservative wisdom. It will probably pay off during that long trip to nowhere when you realize that you low on fuel and there's nothing but bad gas around.
That Frank fella, on the other hand--he's kind of a wildman. I rather expect him to push things a little closer to the edge.
/Steevo
sorry steevo the extra point in compression isn't going to be all that great, also if I remember right, aluminum blocks don't have aluminum bores? ...thats right they have iron sleeves. I personally know of a 496 that had 9.5-1 compression with aluminum heads, AFR 305's, victor jr. HP950, and small solid roller that made 650hp and 600ilbs of torque. You do not need 11.5-1 compression to make the power he wants. How many big blocks have you actually built??? Did you even build your motor? If he wanted to get towards 850 horsepower NA, than maybe he could push the limits of the compression, cam, and all that other good stuff, but for 750hp out of a 540 he can easily get away with pump gas friendly 10-1, a solid roller or flat tappet with about [email protected] duration and a about .700 lift, maybe a super victor jr. and some 2" headers.
EDIT:
this is the combo I was speaking of, this is from a well know reputable builder in Northern CA; (cut and paste)

496, 4.310x4.25
AFR 315, Vic Jr, 1"spacer 850 Demon, Comp roller 254/260- .698/.666-111 sep, Isky Red Zones,
9.80 compression,
2" dyno headers
670HP@ 6300 @ 610ft lbs @ about 45-4600.
Over 500 ft lbs from 2900.
Idled about 850, don't remember the vacuum
This was on a dyno considered pretty conservative,,, Mine
Also this engine was pulling over 2" of vacuum from around 5000 on up which means the carb was too small.
Add about 1 point of compression and a little more carb & I have no doubt it would have gone over 700 honest HP.
So this is only a 496 step it up to a 540 and about about 75hp and torque all over the board. There is no need to push 11.5-1 compression on a motor like this, its just asking for headaches, even with an aluminum block

Steve Chryssos

09-13-2005, 09:48 AM

sorry steevo the extra point in compression isn't going to be all that great...
Wrong.

Also if I remember right, aluminum blocks don't have aluminum bores? ...thats right they have iron sleeves.
Doesn't matter. Still dissipates more heat than an iron block.

I personally know of a 496 that had 9.5-1 compression with aluminum heads, AFR 305's, victor jr. HP950, and small solid roller that made 650hp and 600ilbs of torque.
No it didn't. With a "small roller", that combo's good for about 1.2HP/cube or 595 at best. The dyno must have had the friction correction factor turned off, or the wrong calibration file loaded, or any number of ways to jack around the numbers.

You do not need 11.5-1 compression to make the power he wants.
Wrong again.

How many big blocks have you actually built???
Ask around.

Did you even build your motor?
The current one? No. I was busy. Is that okay?

If he wanted to get towards 850 horsepower NA, than maybe he could push the limits of the compression, cam, and all that other good stuff, but for 750hp out of a 540 he can easily get away with pump gas friendly 10-1, a solid roller or flat tappet with about [email protected] duration and a about .700 lift, maybe a super victor jr. and some 2" headers.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong But hey, that seems to happen a lot. So back to the point at hand: Iron vs aluminum: Given two identical engines, one with an iron block and one with an aluminum block--all other variable equal, the iron block engine will make more power and be more prone to detonation. Looking at it inversely, you can run more compression in an all aluminum engine, and will need to do so to equal the power of the same engine with an iron block.
Honestly Cody,
Why do you continue to resist the laws of thermodynamics? Perhaps if he cross-drills his pistons, then everything will be okay?

yody

09-13-2005, 09:54 AM

Okay hears the deal, I know you are a smart fella and all but you are plain wrong here and I believe Frank will even have to agree, all you stuff about thermodynamics is great for bench racing and stuff, but FOR THIS BUILD none of it is needed. Also look at the specs i put below on the 496, those are 100% honest results from a conservative dyno. Why should I ask around about yoru engine building credentials? How many al/al 540's have you built? How many have I? none. Sorry dude your wrong here, it might be possilbe to push 11.5-1 comression but why? how much more power do you think its going to make? Its not worth it. and the only reason I am arguing this is because the way you responded to my post :geek:

MarkM66

09-13-2005, 09:57 AM

Frank,

What happened to the SB2 headed sbc idea? Those heads on an aluminum block would be ideal IMO. I like N/A power, :) .

ProdigyCustoms

09-13-2005, 11:39 AM

Yody and Steve, here was what the experts have always told me about compression. Yes, Yody, it may make nearly the same peak HP, but without compression, it will be soft in the middle getting to the peak. I can tell from experaince that even though a 1.0 boost in compression in one of my last motors did nothing on the dyno (disappointment). It did knock 3/10ths ET off. I thiink the big number for your reference 496 is a bit off, but even if it is real, it will be lazy getting there. My bet is it won't ET worth a ****.

Jake is building a motor right now, and Tony at AFR, who is VERY well repected, is pushing him to push it to 11 to 1, with a iron block, where I had said 10.5 to 1. Steve probably knows a lot more about FI then I do, but it does not take a rocket scientist to realize a FI set up will operate more efficiently. Thermodynamics means little to me, even though I do believe it is there.

And BTW, who let the cat out of the bag on the 850HP goal? Ordered my roller today, i t's big, REAL BIG, found a friend that made 901HP with the same set up with 12 to 1 compression. If one point is 50HP, then so be it!

Anyway, back to compression. There is a certian "snap" that comes from compression, that a dyno may not see, but the race track is always my dyno anyway.

Steve, did you learn any of this stuff when you were with Bill Mitchell? Or was it from Tony Barton?

I

ProdigyCustoms

09-13-2005, 12:06 PM

Frank,

What happened to the SB2 headed sbc idea? Those heads on an aluminum block would be ideal IMO. I like N/A power, :) .

Next one

Jagarang

09-13-2005, 12:28 PM

Option D....Do BOTH you big puss! Procharged Nitrous thats the ticket....

Bill Howell

09-13-2005, 04:13 PM

Go for the GAS , You dont have to cut it on unless you need it. Just my opion .

How did I know that would be your answer. That is your answer to everything, gas, gas and more gas.... :lmao: :lmao:

yody

09-13-2005, 06:46 PM

If an engine was that soggy down low due to compression, or you made .3 improvement from 1 point of compression, either the cam you had was way too big, or your compression was WAY low.

I have seen the 496 that i listed the specs for, if you look at my post there is an exact list of the parts used, i have also seen the dyno room where it was dynoed, know the builder pretty well. He is very well respected on the chevelle board also. This is not some "westech" magazine dyno, this is a conservative dyno with all the corrected factors. Also the motor had a super flat torque curve. did you not see in my post "Over 500 ft lbs from 2900." ??

In reference to tony at AFR and Jakes motor and the 11-1 I have already built pretty much the same motor jake is building and have 10.7-1 with a .039 quench, the heads are milled to 112CC 305AFR heads and has a 23CC dome SRP piston. I have a pretty big cam also, a .254/.260 @ .050 .680 lift solid roller, this is in a 454. Below 2,000 rpm the motor will chug and ping if you lug it in a high gear. The rest of the time it runs excellent. My main point is 11.5-1 is not necessary for said power goals.

With the right head 11.5-1 isn't necessary for 850hp but if you truly have a huge cam(which I wouldn't put in) then the extra compression will be needed. HOwever your point on letting the chamber due the work is good, big domes suck, especially on pump gas. Again if you have resell value in mind(not sure if you are going to keep the car forever) with such a nice car, I don't think many people are going to want some huge cam that is not very drivable. If you are using a solid roller make sure to get the Isky red zones or the super expensive jesel setup, also you might look into getting the .904 diameter lifters and get the block setup for them, they will last a little longer.

ScotI

09-13-2005, 07:38 PM

.... Again if you have resell value in mind(not sure if you are going to keep the car forever) with such a nice car, I don't think many people are going to want some huge cam that is not very drivable....My best guess is anyone that can screw together a ride as nice as what I've seen in the pics (w/cost not being a factor since it doesn't appear to be) is not going to have an issue w/dropping in whatever engine it takes to sell the car if/when the time comes.

awr68

09-13-2005, 08:04 PM

Is it done yet!?!?

Quit BSing and start wrenching...the bus is about to leave!!! :)

ProdigyCustoms

09-14-2005, 04:17 AM

Yody, I really do not want to start this fight again. This cam thing is something you really could learn from. Again, to refresh your memory, I run a 271/279, .680 / .680 in my street racer 404CI motor, that runs 10.60 on horsepower at 1000' DA in a 3450 car, on pump gas. I regularly stomp big blocks like yours with it and drive it everywhere. Ask the boys in Pigeon Forge. The PT cars were having overheat and other issues, we drove the 40 miles to the track, ran 20 passes round robin running low 6s on a slick track with grass growing through it at 4400" DA with Larry in the car, and drove 40 miles back. Street manners are not a issue in a properly tuned and designed engine. That car has been sitting since Pigeon Forge, and I promise you I can go in the garage, fire it up, drive it to the track, and run 10s, without ever lifting the hood. She will start and idle from stone cold.

I can fix your ping problems by putting a cam in it with more duration and tightening the LCs. I can also tell you if you are 620HP, I am 580HP or so, and I promise you will not come within a half second of my 404s ET assuming you run slicks and get it to dead hook.

As far as a Jessel, I do not need one, but may run one if Jessel will give me one. My little 404 only runs crane golds and a girdle at 686 lift.

Again, I am not making this **** up. I can and have proven my statements over my many years of experience. The cam I am putting in this motor I promise you will think is WAY to big. I also promise I will have it running like it is a baby cam. Properly tuning is everything.

BTW, I was not going to bring it up in public, or even repeat it, but since we are where we are again, a little bird tells me you are not exactly happy with your engines performance. I understand it is a bit dead down low. And it pings. And it is hard idling.

I was giving you a lot of credit for having the guts to come on the board and admit it was screwed up the first time around, and ask for advice and opinions. I really thought that was gutsy after some of your engine god post, and was impressed. But now it appears you are slipping back into saint hood and arguing with some serious experience. Forget my resume, do you have any idea who Steve hangs out with in his world? You don't work with Bill Mitchell for as long as Steve did without picking up a thing or two. Ever seen Tony Barton 700+ inch all aluminum monster? Did you know Steve had his hands in that, among others? Again, sometimes it is best to listen.

I can do this though and end our disputes pinks style. I am trailering to Vegas with Prodigy. I can carry 2 if I need to. Why don't I bring my little 404 overcammed, undriveable, street car. I will come on out to where you are after SEMA. You Put slicks on your 620HP big block, Ill loan you a set. I'll spot you 5 cars with my 580HP over cammed, Pee Wee, and we do it Pinks style, one race, car for car? Then I can bring yours home and straighten out!

BTW, this is not some loose offer, this is legit! You'll only need to get 11.10s out of it to win, and according to all calculators, it should run 10.30s at the 620HP and 3500LBS.

You can take the next 8 weeks and see if you can make yours run. I'll mail you the keys to mine and let it continue to sit on flat tires until it is time to come out.

ProdigyCustoms

09-14-2005, 04:18 AM

Is it done yet!?!?

Quit BSing and start wrenching...the bus is about to leave!!! :)

Were workin. Hopefully have a motor by October 1.

Jagarang

09-14-2005, 04:32 AM

Option D....Do BOTH you big puss!

Otherwise Prodigy will be in my trailer, headed for my front lawn! I'll clear a special patch in the weeds for her!:moon:

yody

09-14-2005, 09:03 AM

allright so you do want to argue eh. First of all get your facts right, your little bird is a little late. I had some bugs to work out, sorry i didn't post them. Powervalves needed to go down, the timing curve needed to be adjusted, timing needed to be adjusted, lash needed to be loosened, idle transfer slots were off some and the squirters needed to be larger, and Yes now it runs exactly how i wanted it. It idles nicely, has no bogging, and runs to 7,000 rpm whenever it wants, it idles fine when it is cold too. A couple people have driven in it, and they all ride 1,000CC sports bikes, and they compared the acceleration in it to their bikes. The car could use more gear in it which will help the pinging in sixth gear and give more acceleration as it will spend less time out of the powerband, but the current gears help me take off without wheelspin, so i havne't decieded what to do with that yet.The car has 100 miles or less on it so obviously I don' thave any performance numbers. But I built it exactly how I wanted it, a little soggy down low and screams up top and it runs on 91 octane with almost 11-1 compression. Yes it pings in sixth gear, but with a .260 duration cam in a small 454 with a 27" tall tire and a .50 gear with a 3:73 rear gear what do you expect? and tightening the LSA is going to make it even more unstreetable.

I never said I was an engine god, YOU have always been the one with something to prove, talking all of your dragracing nonsense, and how you will come to CA to race me? Your 69 is one fast car but it is a race car, and I am sure 99% of the people here would get real annoyed driving it farther than the ice cream shop. Your always so quick to want to race me, which is ridiculous, I never claimed I had some super fast quarter mile car, and I am not worried what so ever what it runs in the quarter mile. You just stick to your street races in florida and keep all the useless trash talking down there.

Go re-read my posts, they are all level-minded and just give out my opinions/suggestions, I could care less if you want to go 12-1, you asked for suggestions so I gave my opionions. Steve came off with the car god attitude and totally knocked down my opinion. I don't care who he worked for, he rarely ever posts anything about any kind of engine building so why should I just believe what he says? Especially when he tells me what not to do in such a manner?

"Yody,
Uhh..If I make a statement based on aluminum heads and and an aluminum block, why would counter with a statement regarding aluminum/iron? Please don't offer your iron/aluminum, carbureted 468 for comparison. I was very clear: aluminum/aluminum/FI."

Everytime I ever said anything at all like that I got attacked by a bunch of pansies here, so know its my turn! :bananna2:

I havne't even seen your cam specs so how would I know how big it is??? All I said is since you probably want to sell this car to make a profit is that going to big can hurt resale value, as everyone doesnt' want to drive around a turd. Also I wasn't talking about Jesel Shaft mounted rockers, I was talking about their solid roller lifters. If the cam is truly "SO BIG" then that means lots of lift which equals lots of valve spring which equals lots of pressure on the lifters. If you don't want needle bearings all over your engine I highly suggest you do your research on Solid roller lifters. I already gave you my opinion.

What it all boils down to is the combination, of course if you run some huge cam that is going to require annual lifter inspeciton and spring replacement then you can get away with more compression and the motor will need it, but the car looks nice, doesnt' look like a car with a parachute and an aluminum wing in the back with a net in teh window. Pro-touring is all about drivablility. Of course you can drive your street-legal race car all you want, but the truth is most people wouldn't want to. With the CI size and the head flow you have why build a uncomfortable car? You can get 800hp and still have a decent idle and vacuum and run pump gas?? Why just go overboard and build a motor that is going to be barely streetable and need so much attention? Also how many BBC's have you built?

BTW get the chip off of your shoulder, how tall are you, you sometimes act like you are about 5 feet tall, I think they call that "little man syndrome" always trying to prove something :injured: just so you get it that was a joke :worship:
also my car weighs more than 3.500ilbs, hey maybe I should get "ed's" email for you?

68protouring454

09-14-2005, 10:52 AM

good reading here~!!!!
as you guys have said i am building a similer motor to codys, although mine will kick yodys motors ass, thats not hear nor there!! :spank2:
tony mamo and 2 other techs at afr have told me over and over, in iron block, alum head, push all of 11-1 out of i, and yes this is for a california based build too, the difference between 10-1 and 11-1 is little hp, but a HUGE difference in crispness and snap the motor has, especially down low.
i am no engine god, but i have asked the guys that should know, and this is what i am getting. afr also said in an all aluminum motor they would not bat an eye at 12-1 on pump gas.
tony also is helping pick a cam for my motor and from our discusions its gonna end up around 670-700 lift and 264 and 270 dur @.50, and said it will be a serious deal.
anyway afr and frank seem to have close opinions on cam size and compression.
who would you listen too??

ProdigyCustoms

09-14-2005, 10:53 AM

Well, let's start with that small man syndrome. Anyone that has seen me knows I am anything but small. As far as my chip, I am knocking your chip off. As far as not wanting to drive my "race car" You need to take another look. It is full custom interior, all steel, stereo, and other then the fact it does not corner because of tires, it is very much the street car. As far as idle, why don't you listen to it on the PG video, there is lots of time on video of it idling, and running 6.30s with Larry in it. And yes, I can reach in the window and hit the key, and idle at 900.

As far as how many big blocks I have built, I am a big block guy. Only did the small block because no one would race my big blocks anymore, you figure it out!

As far as Ed's e mail, I have it. Is he your daddy? He is the most hated guy on the Internet! Already been there done that with him years ago. But this does make sense as to where you get this smaller is better theory. Maybe we all know who is short and trying to convince everyone smaller is better! Sorry, couldn't help myself!

I'll stop now before the mods close it. Just listen a little and recognize who you are talking to and how inexperienced you really are with your 3 engines.

And if your car runs as good as a 1000CC sport bike, you should take the race. Those all run in the 10s now, and you only need 11s to win! I really think a race would settle it, and that is not trash talking. It would not be the first time I traveled for a race.. And if it makes you feel better, I'll put 275s up front, and 335s out back.

yody

09-14-2005, 11:05 AM

Tony is a Really smart guy and I have spent some considerable amount of time on the phone with him. WHen it comes to head design he is one of the best. But I would not rely on those guys to build myself a BBC. Its all about the combination. I think the main ideas are getting taken out of context. You can build a motor 10 different ways and they can all work good. My suggestions were for a given HP number, and for a certain streetability aspect. Also you can call 10 different experts and gurus and hear 10 different responses. What it boils down to is what you think will be a well-rounded package. None of these guys you are asking info are going to have the right answers for you when your motor isn't right. Jake Tony is specing a cam that isn't going to fun in your motor. You are building a near identical motor to mine(except for the CNC'd heads you lucky .....) My motor already only pulls 7" of vacuum at 950rpm that is with .026 lash hot. If you run a cam like that, expect to run upwards of 11-1 compression, probably more like 12-1(race gas) and some major deep gears to run with that T56 six speed, probably some 4:56's. Also expect to run a 106LSA and have a race car idle, It will run super fat at idle and it ain't going to idle below 1,000rpm. You need more compression or more cubic inches for a deal like that. I like BIG stuff, but don't go overvboard, it is real easy. Also expect more like .730 lift with a good aggresive grind with those duration numbers. Expect to also buy some really good springs and a rev-kit also. Isky tool room springs are your best bet or Manley's Nextal(or whatever they are called) springs, they are about $500 for a set. The rev-kit would be a good idea to keep the lifter on the lobe and reduce "skidding" (at least this is what the experts have told me) My main point here is not that all of this radical stuff can't be done, my point is that you can have your cake and eat it too, you don't have to push the envelope to get the power numbers that are desired, the right combo doesnt' always warrant huge cams and super high compression, and a LOT of the time people end up with Dogs that are no fun to drive and require extensive tuning and never end up running right. Obviously Frank knows what he's doing, Just didn't realize that he wanted a drag racing motor for Prodigy.
EDIT:
Like I said keep your trash talking where it belongs.....

Mean 69

09-14-2005, 11:11 AM

Yody, I would be more than glad to help you out in such a race by offering to tow your car to the race, anywhere it is. I'll do it for free, you don't even have to pay for gas. If the only issue is your deciding upon what gear set you need, well, I'll throw that in the deal too, you call it, I'll buy it.

The issue, young man, is that you PROFESS your OPINIONS, making them sound like FACT. Not just on this thread either, I have seen some incredibly bad advise and assumptions that are plain ludicrous on other posts that I have far more subject knowledge on, and sorry, but as a result, I'd have to question what you say here too. Building "a" car and bench racing on an internet site does not make one an expert. I say put up, or shut up.

One disclaimer, I'll only agree to tow the car if the race is in a safe venue, no street racing. There is an incredibly nice race track right down the street in LV, I'll look into arrangements to see if they are available for such an event (last year there was a NASA race the weekend after SEMA, maybe there will be a similar event this year).

I really don't get it, in person you are a really great guy, but behind the keyboard, you really and truly seem like a completely different person.

Mark

yody

09-14-2005, 11:18 AM

whatever, please quote me hear or where on "all this bad advice" ? So what did I do wrong on my car? And you are one for Professing opinions! I never once said I wanted to race anyone or my motor was better or I knew more or my car was faster? OF course Franks car is faster, can he build a better motor or faster car? I am sure he can!!! Why is it that I can't defend myself without being accused of being an A-hole? I really don't see where I was out of line on this post? I never once attacked Frank. Maybe its my fault for being to quick to respond to atagonizing remarks. BTW I am exactly the same in person and on teh keyboard, whats funny is that this stuff never happens on any other forums? Whats really funny is being told I am wrong by a bunch of guys (besides frank) that I am wrong who don't even build their own engines?? Just stick to the supsension stuff. I can be the first to admit I know a lot but I also don't know squat. A lot of what I know is just from reading/advice, and a lot is from experience. I am no expert or guru hear, but i believe my advice on this subject in this post is pretty decent. Like Frank said, My motor wasn't right and I asked questions, I havne't been around this stuff for as long as a lot of people. I am pretty young. Seems I don't fit in to the "hierachy" of this board. But please enlighten me to all of my super bad advise, especially in this post.

Matt@RFR

09-14-2005, 11:22 AM

Cody, please answer one question: Why do race engine builders, who have been at this game all their lives, run 15:1, 16:1 on up to 18:1 (on gas) when, by your logic, could get away with 13:1 and be so much easier on the rotating assembly?

And don't even think about saying that race motors and good street motors are two different things. They aren't. They are nothing but a big air pump, and effiecency is everything to an air pump. When you design a motor, there's no reason whatsoever to not take advantage of proper techniques...one of which is maximizing compression for the situation. If you can get away with 12:1 on pump gas, or 13:1 on a 50/50 mix, then why would you NOT do it????

I don't know why you keep arguing this. YOU ARE WRONG CODY. There's enough talent, on and off this board, that is contradicting everything you say, that I would think you'd get the idea by now. It's ok to admit when you don't know something.

Do keep in mind that every motor is different, and there are flukes that can happen. When working with a race engine builder, we had a guy come in and want to slow his car down to under 135mph so he didn't have to wear a full suit. My boss took him from 13:1 to 10.5:1 (on alcohol) and said, "That should do it.". Funny thing.....he picked up 3mph with no other changes. :)

yody

09-14-2005, 11:26 AM

whatever I guess I am wrong. NOT! It seems you guys don't even give a chance to what I am saying or even read the contents of my posts, you just figure I am stupid Yody and just want to agree with the majority. I never said 11.5-1 compression was ridiculous, My point was that it wasn't necessary. Whatever, this has gotten so ridiculous, no one has proven anything wrong, and your examples are totally out in left field......like I said, it all depends on the combo, not knowing the cam specs, and the rest of the specs of the engine, quoting compression specs isn't necessary. I personally have close to 11-1 compression. It works fine. My suggestion for the 100th time is that Frank build a motor with a a little less compression and THE REST OF THE MOTOR TO MATCH for better streetability, and still reach is HP goal. God this is getting old.......
BTW the difference between a race motor and a street motor is the way it behaves and what it needs to do in certain circumstances. So yes there is a difference. All depends on application. So I guess we should all just drop in Nacar SB2 motors and call it a day?

Steve Chryssos

09-14-2005, 11:33 AM

delete. :hand:

Matt@RFR

09-14-2005, 11:34 AM

whatever, please quote me hear or where on "all this bad advice" ?

Okie dokie.

well, i welded my axle tubes to my pumpkin and also welded on brackets for the hardline to softline brake lines. It was a good amount of welding, like a goof off i didn't measure anything, but my axles slid in perfectly and rotate great. I would think if there was any binding you would feel it when putting in the axle. Otherwise you guys might be getting too anal.

That's like telling somebody to not worry about aligning their front end. Would it work? Yes. Is it right? Not by a long shot.

That's only one example of many Cody. If you're not an expert on a particular subject, please stick to asking questions.

Also, grammar please. (http://www.eduplace.com/kids/hme/6_8/index.html)

yody

09-14-2005, 11:36 AM

well when my axle comes flying out I will be sure to tell you :) didn't know you were so multi talented you are a race engine builder and a welder. Kudos to you! :hammer:

ProdigyCustoms

09-14-2005, 11:42 AM

Jake Tony is specing a cam that isn't going to fun in your motor.

For those of you that do not know, Tony IS AFR. So now AFR does not know as much as Yody!

You are building a near identical motor to mine(except for the CNC'd heads you lucky .....) My motor already only pulls 7" of vacuum at 950rpm that is with .026 lash hot.

Who cares? If he is running manual brakes or hydroboost, what deos it matter? All he cares about is hauling ass.

If you run a cam like that, expect to run upwards of 11-1 compression, probably more like 12-1(race gas)

I am starting to understand, you simply CANNOT listen. He said they were wotking with 11 to 1!

and some major deep gears to run with that T56 six speed, probably some 4:56's.

Why the hell would he do that? With the mega deep first gear, all that HP and horsepower, he will want a tll gear so it goes.

Also expect to run a 106LSA and have a race car idle,

Yes it will, and that is exactly what Jake has asked for!

It will run super fat at idle and it ain't going to idle below 1,000rpm.

Why? Why will it run fat? Wasn't I the one that told you were running off the jets and not the idle circuit when you complained you were running rich? You admited you were not on the idle circuit in your last post. I have been dozens of engines with giant cams, and none run rich, when properly tuned. Again, I sit in traffic for hours, no problems, with a bigger cam and less cubes.

You need more compression or more cubic inches for a deal like that.

BS

Also expect more like .730 lift with a good aggresive grind with those duration numbers.

We are going to keep the lift down under 700, just for that reason.
EDIT:
Like I said keep your trash talking where it belongs.....

So there

yody

09-14-2005, 11:44 AM

Mean 69

09-14-2005, 11:52 AM

Also, Scuderia Ferrari called. They wanted me to thank Yody on their behalf. They too have been enlightened. The F1 team is abandoning costly and complicated traction control. Instead they are adopting this radical engine technology scheme and calling it: "Il Motore di Poop." If all works well, they will transfer the technology to their street cars and cast each valve cover with the word: "Testayody" All valve covers will be painted in a brown krinkle finish instead of red and the prancing horse will forever be replaced with a silhouette of a turkey taking a crap.

Oh man, that was priceless. :icon996:

Seeing's how Team Red is getting their booties handed to them, well, this may not be too far off! Do you like pasta, Yody? Maranello is nice in the fall I have heard.

Mark-out.

P.S:

Whats really funny is being told I am wrong by a bunch of guys (besides frank) that I am wrong who don't even build their own engines?? Just stick to the supsension stuff. I can be the first to admit I know a lot but I also don't know squat.

I did build my own motor, beyond the machine work that is. It blew up, block seems to have taken a dump. Does that make you feel better?

yody

09-14-2005, 11:59 AM

Okay to respond to Franks last post
1. I already stated that AFR is Tony, and know I don't know more than Tony, but Tony is a head designer just like Matt is a welder not a race engine builder :bsjerk: Tony knows 100x's more than me, but considering I already have an almost identical motor and Tony doesn't I think I would have some insight on how a cam like Tony suggested would run in Jakes motor.

2. It doesnt' really matter on vacuum, it was a comparison, the more duration the less vacuum, so he would have about 5" vacuum, I think that would just show just how big the cam actually is, not really the a big deal however

3.On the compression, I know he is working with 11-1 me and jake have been emailing each other for a month about his combo, My point was that he would "want" upwards of 11-1 to work properly with such a big cam in such small cubes (454) sorry i worded it wrong

4.With the gear spread and overdrive in the T56 and the cam/combo he would be running, to keep the motor in its powerband he would need steep gears. Such as 4:56's. I have 3:73's with the same tranny and motor size but with smaller heads(305 v 315) and a smaller cam(254/260 V 264/270) and I already need 4:10's, the 3:73's keep the motor below its powerband for too long. And in sixth gear the motor lugs bad and makes the sixth gear almost useless. Putting in a bigger cam will make it even worse

5.Okay we agree on something, but the 106 is going to make the motor sound like a pro-stocker and make it a bunch more radical, this is more of a personal preference, I personally would get tired of it real quick, but if Jake wants that, well thats great

6Thats great that you are such a carb expert, and It WAS NOT in the jets, I had the wrong powervalve in it, sorry, thanks for the suggestions though. I am sure you are a carb expert, is Jake? Why make it harder? There is going to be some huge overlap with a cam like he wants. I have my combo dialed in pretty good now and I couldnj't imagin adding 10 degrees of duration to the motor

7. Not BS, I guess we just don't agree on that, again I have almost an identical motor to what he is builiding so I think I would have some insite on this

8. Good idea

I just find this funny how this turned into an anti-yody war. When Frank already stated he was going to run 10.7-1 compression and have 750hp which was perfect, and as soon as I stated 1 single opinion, everything has changed and now I am so wrong and singled out? Maybe I never think I am wrong, and get too defensive and don't realize how I come off, But the majority of people here taking low blows at me, really don't read or comprehend what I am saying. Oh well, I guess I will just have to keep getting pounded into the dirt......what else is funny is how people just ignore my statements or posts that prove anything

kennyd

09-14-2005, 12:03 PM

I'd love to stay and chat boys, but I'm out in the garage tearing my engine apart. I've been truly enlightened here. It's as though the godfather of soul himself, James Brown, is standing on the roof of my car yelling "Can you see the light! Can you see the light!"

I've learned so much here in the past 48 hours. Wow. So I've decided to alter my combination. My goal is to make my engine a soggy, pinging, "can't break a 35 series tire loose" turkey turd. :banghead: Why? Why didn't I think of this before? How could I have been so blind?

Also, Scuderia Ferrari called. They wanted me to thank Yody on their behalf. They too have been enlightened. The F1 team is abandoning costly and complicated traction control. Instead they are adopting this radical engine technology scheme and calling it: "Il Motore di Poop." If all works well, they will transfer the technology to their street cars and cast each valve cover with the word: "Testayody" All valve covers will be painted in a brown krinkle finish instead of red and the prancing horse will forever be replaced with a silhouette of a turkey taking a crap.

I am truly humbled. :worship:

wow, i see you must have different rights than i do ! i hope the next time you get on you get banned !

Matt@RFR

09-14-2005, 12:06 PM

The last half of this thread is just polishing a turd. I'm out.

yody

09-14-2005, 12:10 PM

actaully I think Frank and myself last posts are back on track, maybe there can be some more actual tech and someone who claims to be so much smarter can actually teach me something? Instead of throwing low blows, how bout it?

68protouring454

09-14-2005, 12:10 PM

we have smiler motors, theres one big difference,
MINES GONNA KICK YOUR MOTORS ASS!!!
you should do a cranking compression test on it to see if you are at the magical 200 psi mark which means detonating big time on pump gas, what is cranking compression??
you can bet your life mine will end up 185-190 no matter what, then it will run as hard as i will be driving it.
franks has the key, yeah you can build a motor both ways but when wanting to push compression and pump gas you will need overalp to kill compression some, and THATS exactely what i will be doing.
from guys i have talked to, at the pigeon forge event, franks car ran killer on the roads out there, then he scared the **** out of larry running it in the 8th mile.
i am no engine god and thats why i ask opinions, ask alot of people, and use the most common answer, and the common answer is that of tony mamo of afr and frank, 11-1, 26-270 dur @.50 and hold the **** on.
no i am not a carb expert, but know a few guys on and off the board that will help, and i am sure if i have issues next year at power tour there is some genius in orlando who will help
i am just going with the majority of proffessionals who i have asked.
IS THAT SO WRONG??

68protouring454

09-14-2005, 12:13 PM

why even respond, you are not envolved and all steve said was cody was wrong about compression, again like cody he was stating opinion, then cody jumped on everyone cause they do not like his opinion, .
so steve should be banned for a rebuttle that could have been 100 times worse, and he prtrayed it in a way i bet cody even laughed.
maybe you should be banned

yody

09-14-2005, 12:13 PM

okay.......have fun, there was so much nonsense in that post i can't even begin.... :hand:

yody

09-14-2005, 12:15 PM

okay Matts right this thread officialy sucks now. Thanks jake.........see ya
p.s. sorry frank

Steve Chryssos

09-14-2005, 12:17 PM

wow, i see you must have different rights than i do ! i hope the next time you get on you get banned !

Woops! Yeah, you're right.
/Steevo

awr68

09-14-2005, 12:20 PM

OK, I'm bored with this...it's not going anywhere!! Cody give up...these guys have a lot more, proven, experiance. Not that you don't know your way around a car...you got yours back on the road and a 100 miles on it!!

Understand Frank likes to take things to the limit and isn't looking for the ultra reliable (conservitive) build here...he wants the most power he can get! Look at the car he didn't hold back on a thing...it's not his style. If he ever wants to sell the car, I'm sure Mike can spend a couple days swapping in a nice SBC or what ever it takes. I personally dig the power house he has planned...it's what he needs for this show...remember this is their marketing tool at the moment and they have to get noticed!

Frank knows better than anyone that I would love to see a blower on the car, but I understand he is truely out of fabrication time and his wicked NA BBC plan really is the only way to make the show. They can always change things around later, I say go for it guys!!! Just imagine what people will think when they hear a bad ass all AL BBC cruising threw the convention center...a lot different than a quiet TT SBC!!!

Keep up the good work guys...tic-tock-tic-tock!! :)