SCCA is adding a class just for us!

[GrabberGT]

I still like the rolling 30 year cutoff. This would mean that the car would have to be 84 or older. Throw in some exceptions for model year carry overs like Fox body Mustangs (78-93) or 3rd Gen Camaros (82-92) and I think it would still be fair.

[mpozzi]

The "Rolling 30" works. As this class is named Classic American Muscle, leaving it open to everything American is dooming the class to failure. There's not much classic about a late-model Z06, GenV Camaro, or Mustang ... at least not today. In about 30 years, perhaps.

We'd see a lot of the Good Guys participants starting to enjoy what they built a lot more as sitting in a lawn chair watching a string of cars drive by for two or three days can get old. I'm betting SCCA might even get some aftermarket suspension companies putting some class sponsorship $$ behind this class if it does as well as I think it will.

Mary Pozzi

[NJSPEEDER]

Would there be any consideration for car generation? My example would be the 3rd gen f-bodies that are growing in popularity. If a strict rolling 30 based solely on production year is applied only 82-84 car would be eligible which leaves 85-92 owners hanging in the breeze. The Fox Mustang crowd would be in a similar boat.

-Tim

[SSLance]

That's the exact problem of the MY cutoffs, different models face different generation changes.

I prefer a 2 seater vs 4 seater split myself.

My contention is a fat street legal car weighing 3000+ pounds on 200 TW tires is going to be pretty competitive against another fat street legal car weighing 3000+ pounds on 200 TW tires, regardless of the model year, especially if the suspension and drivetrain components are left wide open as they are. A major difference might be the front to rear weight distribution that a 2 seater may have (Corvettes).

[Damn True]

There are a number of classes where a fox mustang or 3/4 gen camaro can be built to relevance......less so with actual Classic Musclecars.

[NJSPEEDER]

There are a number of classes where a fox mustang or 3/4 gen camaro can be built to relevance......less so with actual Classic Musclecars.

There are also classes that allow other cars, muscle and otherwise of all ages. If that is the best argument against it is a very weak one.

If the premise of the class is to give owners of modified, street legal American muscle a place to play then a closed ended cut off based on just a prduction year misses a lot of oppotunities. Thirdgens, Fox Mustangs, and G-body's are all vastly more available and affordable than a lot of older muscle cars. This would mean an opportunity to attract more cars and even better an opportunity to attract younger enthusiasts that don't have the scratch to build a 69 Camaro or other valuable classic.

-Tim

[Damn True]

That the rules for a given class might "allow" a '68 nova =/= to a class where that '68 nova can be built to relevance.

There are numerous classes where a fox mustang or 3/4 gen camaro can be built to relevance.

If you want to build/race an old Nova you pretty much have to do a max effort build like Mr Hobaugh did in order to compete against much more modern equipment in CP.

The premise is to allow the old cars that are running GG, OUSCI, RTT-X etc an opportunity to run with SCCA. Before this class your only choice was to get your a$$ handed to you in CP or something....which tends to discourage folks and causes them to not want to come back.

I don't think the premise has anything to do with providing more classes for cars that are already represented in numerous existing classes.

[NJSPEEDER]

Your position sounds a lot more based in having less of an affinity for the later model muscle cars than worrying about having a place to participate. There isn't any special savings in building a CP car out of a 3rd gen vs an older car. It's still a race car and it still requires the added expenses of truck and trailer in most cases. I would even go as far as saying there are a mountain of cars on this very forum that have as much or more money into them than a lot of the competitive CP cars I have seen.

So really what other class a car can possibly be developed for into doesn't change anything.

-Tim

[Damn True]

Try not to assume what I think. I assure you that you aren't good at it.

There are already numerous classes where the cars suggested can compete. The point is...for the third time... that you can build a newer car to relevance in a number of existing classes. What would the point be of giving Fox Mustang or 3/4gen Camaro owners another class to run in when they already have their choice of what 5-6 that already allow for that car and where that car can be reasonably relevant?

...and ask yourself this. If they were to allow in a Fox Mustang (built through 2004) or a 4th Gen Camaro (built through 2002) what do you tell the guy that shows up with a 2003 Corvette? Can he run in CAM as well? What sense does that make?

....especially given that there is already a gob of classes where that Corvette can be classed and where it can be competitive.

[NJSPEEDER]

You keep circling back to cars being able to be built for other classes, your can too.

There is also a giant leap between saying a car with in a generation of production is allowable vs a completely different generation. You are grasping at straws to propose the idea that a 92 camaro would have any great advantage over an 82 in the proposed class, 4th gens didn't start until 93 so that generation would have 9 more years to wait for eligibility. Even at that, is it any less silly sounding to allow an 84 Camaro in and tell an 85 Camaro owner to go kick rocks?

BTW, if I am not accurate in pointing to your clear affinity for older cars then explain your statement "actual Classic Musclecars."

-Tim

[DTM Racing]

I think the missing bit to this discussion is that regions can tailor the rules to the participants (always and option in SCCA). I would suggest if you want something for the mildly classic muscle, petition for a CAM 2 (which we elected to pass on due to low participation). We also have a bit of a gentlemans agreement in our area that if we feel the car is within the spirit of the class, no one will protest and we can amend the rules.

[soloracerSD]

The best reason for you having 78 and older is to avoid running against 2014 VETTS.I saw 2 of them circling CAM Bait ball last weekend...LOL DID you see them?

If CAM get a lot of attention.It will be divided by mods and 2seaters.Taking up 9 pages of the rule book.Three of the divided classes will sound a lot like ESP,SM and CP.for the 4 seaters.ALL vintage.. If not you will hear. WE already have those classes. That's what my palm reader told me. Yes and everyone will have to read a rule book or have it read to them..LOL

I do support CAM but this can be expected if it becomes popular.

We chose 1978 in San Diego as a pre-fox Mustang cutoff, after talking it over quite a bit. The one person who complained the loudest drives a 2008 Pontiac G8 with a supercharger, 580HP, independent rear suspension, ABS, and traction control. We had 10 cars in the class with none of that equipment. It seems more fun for us to run against other old cars...

[Damn True]

You keep circling back to cars being able to be built for other classes, your can too.

There is also a giant leap between saying a car with in a generation of production is allowable vs a completely different generation. You are grasping at straws to propose the idea that a 92 camaro would have any great advantage over an 82 in the proposed class, 4th gens didn't start until 93 so that generation would have 9 more years to wait for eligibility. Even at that, is it any less silly sounding to allow an 84 Camaro in and tell an 85 Camaro owner to go kick rocks?

BTW, if I am not accurate in pointing to your clear affinity for older cars then explain your statement "actual Classic Musclecars."

-Tim

Let me ask you this.

If you had one of these cars in question...(do you, I don't know)...what is the motivation for wanting to compete in CAM and not running in one of the many existing classes that your car is already eligible for?

I have an idea as to a number of possible reasons but I make a point of not putting words in other peoples mouths.

[Craig510]

I can't wait to run my car in CAM. They seem to love the classic muscle cars in the SFR, they put my car in the wheel twice last year. It will be nice to group all the vintage cars together. I was out classed running against EVO's in SM-T2, and way outclassed in CP. My car has too many mods for ESP so I usually just ran FUN. I don't mind running against other late model V8 rear drive American cars, I have to do that at GoodGuys anyways.

[soloracerSD]

I know SM what's SM-T2?

I can't wait to run my car in CAM. They seem to love the classic muscle cars in the SFR, they put my car in the wheel twice last year. It will be nice to group all the vintage cars together. I was out classed running against EVO's in SM-T2, and way outclassed in CP. My car has too many mods for ESP so I usually just ran FUN. I don't mind running against other late model V8 rear drive American cars, I have to do that at GoodGuys anyways.

[Craig510]

I know SM what's SM-T2?

Its a regional class that requires street tires. I think they go down to 180TW.

[mpozzi]

Reading through all of this banter, I am left wondering about one thing (maybe two ...). Where's all these 3rd-gen F-bodies and Fox-body Mustangs? GM and Ford made a gazillion of them and in my opinion, these are the best of the models. They were cheap, plentiful, and handled great. And there's quite a few Solo classes they can be built for and do well in.

So where are they?

Mary Pozzi

[IndyDave]

Let me ask you this.

If you had one of these cars in question...(do you, I don't know)...what is the motivation for wanting to compete in CAM and not running in one of the many existing classes that your car is already eligible for?

I have an idea as to a number of possible reasons but I make a point of not putting words in other peoples mouths.

I can answer that as I'm someone in that situation. The car I currently Solo is my 2005 Mustang GT, it's lightly modded and my 3 season DD. I have modified it to my tastes, not any class rules. S197 Mustangs are a strong contender in ESP on R-comps when prepped to the limit of the rules. The limit of ESP rules would make the car useless as a DD. I could also run it STX where no matter what, it is a back-marker against the several WRX's that populate the class locally. I ran it for 2 years in ESP locally with no competition so I was just making laps. There were a couple of event where prepped ESP cars showed and I was DFL. This past year to help populate SMC I ran it there with a mix of old and new street machines and I was instantly competitive but by no means any kind of overdog. The Mustang is a stop-gap car between my old car, a 1996 Dodge Neon built to SCCA ITA rules that I ran in DSP & FSP, and the car I'm currently building, a 1979 Dodge Aspen R/T. I'm building the Aspen as a street fighter style PT car that if CAM hadn't come along, would be an overweight, under-powered CP car built to GT-1 rules. But for the sake of the current debate, using the sited M/Y cutoff of 1978, my Aspen is still SOL and I get to go back to running by myself in ESP or getting my head caved in in STX.

The intent of CAM is two-fold: first is to indeed give PT car owners a single class to run instead of being placed in different classes based on modifications and level of understanding of the folks running the event. The second intent is to give late model muscle car owners a place to play where they can be competitive LOCALLY. Again, SMC, the prototype for CAM had a mix of old and new and the no one seemed to have an advantage. The class increased membership in the SCCA and my Region, it made competitors out of also-rans, and everyone in the class was having a ball. The class kept at least 2 people coming back as they were stating they were ready to find something else to do because they weren't having all that much fun. As someone who as an officer of the Region, anything the Region can do to keep people interested and coming back to my events I'm going to do. Is it possible for someone to roll in with a car set on kill and destroy everyone else in the class? Definitely. But that can and does happen in any class. Clemens Berger is an Indy Region member and makes all of Indy's events. He DESTROYS B Mod locally, it happens. A tool Regions do have with CAM that will help with overdogs is that there are other classes to move the overdog to. We've already discussed here is we start to have an influx of C5 through C7 Corvettes or Vipers in CAM and that is to ask those competitors to move over to SuperStock. That's where those cars belong anyhow. Someone in a C4 or earlier Corvette, those cars will not have any big advantage and should play well in CAM. If late model cars become a problem then we can split the class or create an exclusions list which allows us to target specific models instead of excluding years of cars.

[j-rho]

I can answer that as I'm someone in that situation. The car I currently Solo is my 2005 Mustang GT, it's lightly modded and my 3 season DD. I have modified it to my tastes, not any class rules. S197 Mustangs are a strong contender in ESP on R-comps when prepped to the limit of the rules. The limit of ESP rules would make the car useless as a DD. I could also run it STX where no matter what, it is a back-marker against the several WRX's that populate the class locally.

Dave, the S197 is a better platform than a 1967 Camaro, one of which trophied at the ProSolo Finale last year in STX.

[SSLance]

I can answer that as I'm someone in that situation. The car I currently Solo is my 2005 Mustang GT, it's lightly modded and my 3 season DD. I have modified it to my tastes, not any class rules. S197 Mustangs are a strong contender in ESP on R-comps when prepped to the limit of the rules. The limit of ESP rules would make the car useless as a DD. I could also run it STX where no matter what, it is a back-marker against the several WRX's that populate the class locally. I ran it for 2 years in ESP locally with no competition so I was just making laps. There were a couple of event where prepped ESP cars showed and I was DFL. This past year to help populate SMC I ran it there with a mix of old and new street machines and I was instantly competitive but by no means any kind of overdog. The Mustang is a stop-gap car between my old car, a 1996 Dodge Neon built to SCCA ITA rules that I ran in DSP & FSP, and the car I'm currently building, a 1979 Dodge Aspen R/T. I'm building the Aspen as a street fighter style PT car that if CAM hadn't come along, would be an overweight, under-powered CP car built to GT-1 rules. But for the sake of the current debate, using the sited M/Y cutoff of 1978, my Aspen is still SOL and I get to go back to running by myself in ESP or getting my head caved in in STX.

The intent of CAM is two-fold: first is to indeed give PT car owners a single class to run instead of being placed in different classes based on modifications and level of understanding of the folks running the event. The second intent is to give late model muscle car owners a place to play where they can be competitive LOCALLY. Again, SMC, the prototype for CAM had a mix of old and new and the no one seemed to have an advantage. The class increased membership in the SCCA and my Region, it made competitors out of also-rans, and everyone in the class was having a ball. The class kept at least 2 people coming back as they were stating they were ready to find something else to do because they weren't having all that much fun. As someone who as an officer of the Region, anything the Region can do to keep people interested and coming back to my events I'm going to do. Is it possible for someone to roll in with a car set on kill and destroy everyone else in the class? Definitely. But that can and does happen in any class. Clemens Berger is an Indy Region member and makes all of Indy's events. He DESTROYS B Mod locally, it happens. A tool Regions do have with CAM that will help with overdogs is that there are other classes to move the overdog to. We've already discussed here is we start to have an influx of C5 through C7 Corvettes or Vipers in CAM and that is to ask those competitors to move over to SuperStock. That's where those cars belong anyhow. Someone in a C4 or earlier Corvette, those cars will not have any big advantage and should play well in CAM. If late model cars become a problem then we can split the class or create an exclusions list which allows us to target specific models instead of excluding years of cars.

+1 On all accounts...