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    1. #1
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      Any experienced engine tuners able to assist?

      Hi Guys,

      trying to tune my new engine, i.e timing & dialing in the dual quad carbs. here is the details let me know if you need anymore

      440 - 505 stroker chrysler motor.
      manual car
      MSD pro billet dizzy (no vac advance) MSD 6AL ignition & blaster 2 coil
      [email protected] lunati hyd cam, 10.1 compression.

      dual quad edelbrock 600cfm.

      my main question is trying to work out where to get the timing perfect, i set it at 14 intial and it started and idled not too bad, but from here i dont really know what to do.



      also on adjusting my carbs they are set up as 1:1 (not progressive) i have the idle screws both adjusted 1/2 turn in and all 4 idle mixture screws at 2 1/4 turns out. it is responsive and does not seem to bog down much but it is overfueling as i have fouled the plugs, i had a vac gauge on it and it was reading around 10-13 jumping back and forth.

      if anyone could tell me step by step on how to get this running perfect would be greatly appreciated.
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    2. #2
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      i try to run as much initial timming as possible, usually i use a 12* stop bushing in the dist and 22 to 25 initial timming. when i had a dual quad on my 470 i ran 2 holley 660s and ran about 1 turn out on the adjustments, you can try this setup and see if it works for you, i also ran 1 to 1 on the carbs. with a 256* @ 50 roller cam and 11 to 1 comp.

    3. #3
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      Hi Benno,

      I can help you dial in the fuel curve & ignition tuning, but being long distance, you'll need to do things to make it like I'm there.

      First off, the cam has a lot of duration for a 10-1 compression engine. That is part of the reason it is running so rich. The valve is open a long time, but the cylinder pressure is low, so it's not efficient. Regardless, you can optimize it & have a nice running package.

      We're going to want to dial in the timing curve first, then move to fuel ... fine tune the fuel curve at the jet level ... then tweek the timing a little again ... and finally dial in the idle circuits.

      Let's start with the distributor. I also run a MSD Pro Billet distributors, but there are a few versions.
      What is yours?
      How does your control advance?
      What it is set at now?

      While we're at it, answer these for me ...
      1. Have you been driving it .. or just running it in the garage?
      2. If you have been driving it, how does it run at ...
      a. Idle ?
      b. Cruise rpm (2000 +/-) ?
      c. mid range 3500+
      d. Top end 5000+
      3. How does it accelerate?
      4. How does the engine run after you let the rpms come down to an idle after a 3500+ rpm blast?

      5. What spark plugs are you running?
      * If you have actually driven the car ... pull them out (all 8) and post a photo looking down at them. Keep them in order, so I can tell which is #1, #2, etc.

      6. HAS THE ENGINE BACK FIRED? Even once? If yes, you will need to pull the power valves & check them.

      7. What jets are in all 8 corners of the carbs?
      b. Are there power valves on the secondaries too? ... or just on the primary sides of the 2 carbs?
      * We'll get to shooter, pumps & cams later?

      8. Are the carbs identical in every way ?

    4. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ron Sutton View Post
      Hi Benno,

      I can help you dial in the fuel curve & ignition tuning, but being long distance, you'll need to do things to make it like I'm there.

      First off, the cam has a lot of duration for a 10-1 compression engine. That is part of the reason it is running so rich. The valve is open a long time, but the cylinder pressure is low, so it's not efficient. Regardless, you can optimize it & have a nice running package.

      We're going to want to dial in the timing curve first, then move to fuel ... fine tune the fuel curve at the jet level ... then tweek the timing a little again ... and finally dial in the idle circuits.

      Let's start with the distributor. I also run a MSD Pro Billet distributors, but there are a few versions.
      What is yours?
      How does your control advance?
      What it is set at now?

      While we're at it, answer these for me ...
      1. Have you been driving it .. or just running it in the garage?
      2. If you have been driving it, how does it run at ...
      a. Idle ?
      b. Cruise rpm (2000 +/-) ?
      c. mid range 3500+
      d. Top end 5000+
      3. How does it accelerate?
      4. How does the engine run after you let the rpms come down to an idle after a 3500+ rpm blast?

      5. What spark plugs are you running?
      * If you have actually driven the car ... pull them out (all 8) and post a photo looking down at them. Keep them in order, so I can tell which is #1, #2, etc.

      6. HAS THE ENGINE BACK FIRED? Even once? If yes, you will need to pull the power valves & check them.

      7. What jets are in all 8 corners of the carbs?
      b. Are there power valves on the secondaries too? ... or just on the primary sides of the 2 carbs?
      * We'll get to shooter, pumps & cams later?

      8. Are the carbs identical in every way ?
      Hi Ron,
      thanks for the help.

      I have the MSD 8546 billet dizzy, it is as it was from out of the box nothing changed, has the standard blue bushing and silver springs.
      I am not sure about the control advance, centrifugal I am guessing?

      it is set at 14* initial and I think it came in at *40 total or close to that anyway

      1. I drove the car about 10klm to the gas station, it ran well but would not start after refilling unless I had pedal flat to floor, then I drove the car about 30klm and ran good then after that I could feel the engione starting to miss like a spark plug lead fell off, I checked and all good so I guessed it might be a dead plug.

      2. when driving it actually went not to bad the throttle was very responsive, but it did feel like there was not a lot of power, I figured this might be because I was running the motor in.
      a. it idled not to bad at 850rpm a little jumpy.
      b. & c. it seemed to run not to bad like I said was pretty responsive on and off the throttle but definetly lacking some power for a stroker.
      d. I never got it that high as running the motor in.

      3. accelerated pretty well no bogging or spluttering until I killed 3 plugs.

      4. it ran fine after after 3500rpm, it did runon a couple of times after shut off when hot though.

      5. spark plugs are NGK BCPR6EIX-11 iridiums, I took 1 picture of a plug as all look identical, but I did give the plugs a clean as I was oping this might fix the dead plug, they all were black and slightly wet from fuel and the reek of fuel, attached photo.

      6. the engine started backfiring after the plugs failed.

      7. I have not touched the carbs in anyway they are as they are from the box, part no. edelbrock #1404, and they are identical in every way. here is the owners manual http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...ers_manual.pdf


      I was reading today that a cam of that size requires from 18-20* initial and around 35-38 total, so I am guessing a bush change in the dizzy is in order.

      thanks for the help
      Ben
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    5. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by sam 74 View Post
      i try to run as much initial timming as possible, usually i use a 12* stop bushing in the dist and 22 to 25 initial timming. when i had a dual quad on my 470 i ran 2 holley 660s and ran about 1 turn out on the adjustments, you can try this setup and see if it works for you, i also ran 1 to 1 on the carbs. with a 256* @ 50 roller cam and 11 to 1 comp.
      Benno,
      What Sam says here would be a good starting point for timing ... if you can run that much initial without detonation ... but MSD doesn't offer a 12 degree stop bushing.

      Sam,
      Are you running a MSD ignition ... and custom make a stop bushing ... or is it a different brand of distributor?


      P.S. I run MSD's Pro Billit E-curve distributor, so practically any curve is possible.

    6. #6
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      Hi Ron,
      thanks for the help.

      I have the MSD 8546 billet dizzy, it is as it was from out of the box nothing changed, has the standard blue bushing and silver springs.
      I am not sure about the control advance, centrifugal I am guessing?

      It is centrifugal with weights, springs & an advance stop bushing. With the standard blue bushing and silver springs it limits "around" 21 degrees of advance.

      it is set at 14* initial and I think it came in at *40 total or close to that anyway
      Did you check this? If you set it at 14 degrees initial ... it should have 35+/- degrees total with the standard blue bushing and silver springs. Please recheck this, as we will want to both "Sure & Accurate".


      1. I drove the car about 10klm to the gas station, it ran well but would not start after refilling unless I had pedal flat to floor,
      It is simply way too rich & flooding.

      then I drove the car about 30klm and ran good then after that I could feel the engione starting to miss like a spark plug lead fell off, I checked and all good so I guessed it might be a dead plug.
      Yup, yup ... fouled a spark plug ... maybe more than 1.

      2. when driving it actually went not to bad the throttle was very responsive, but it did feel like there was not a lot of power, I figured this might be because I was running the motor in.
      When "breaking in" a new engine, they will build a "little less" power due to less true compression ... until the rings seat properly & the sharp honing edges on the cylinder walls flatten out a little. But this is maybe 6-10% less power at most. It should run GOOD. But break-in is not the issue ... fuel curve is.

      a. it idled not to bad at 850rpm a little jumpy.
      With this cam, you should run the idle around 900+ rpm.

      b. & c. it seemed to run not to bad like I said was pretty responsive on and off the throttle but definetly lacking some power for a stroker.
      d. I never got it that high as running the motor in.
      OK

      3. accelerated pretty well no bogging or spluttering until I killed 3 plugs.
      OK

      4. it ran fine after after 3500rpm, it did runon a couple of times after shut off when hot though.
      Yup ... too much fuel ... plus you may have the carb butterflys open too much. Our goal will be to get it to idle better & higher (900 rpm) with less butterfly opening by leaning it out & advancing the timing at idle.

      5. spark plugs are NGK BCPR6EIX-11 iridiums, I took 1 picture of a plug as all look identical, but I did give the plugs a clean as I was oping this might fix the dead plug, they all were black and slightly wet from fuel and the reek of fuel, attached photo.
      Wow ... that is a HOT plug ... and you're fouling them! Your baby is WAY TOO RICH. These plugs will hinder your ability to optimize this engine. The plug runs hot, stays hot and the tip projects into the chamber. That is just inviting detonation. When you try to advance the timing & lean the fuel curve to optimize power, idle quality, acceleration, part throttle cruising, etc ... these plugs will cause detonation with optimum timing & A/F ratio. You need to change them.

      6. the engine started backfiring after the plugs failed.
      Yup ... unburnt fuel igniting after the fact. When I asked this question I wrongly "assumed" you were running Holley carbs ... which if they backfire from being rich ... rips the diaphragm in the powervalve(s) ... making the carb run 6 jet sizes richer per powervalve ... compounding the over rich problem. BUT the Edelbrock powervalve is not of the diaphragm design, so it doesn't blow out.

      7. I have not touched the carbs in anyway they are as they are from the box, part no. edelbrock #1404, and they are identical in every way. here is the owners manual http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...ers_manual.pdf
      First, if you truly have part # 1404, they are 500cfm carbs, not 600cfm. Is this correct?

      Again, when I asked this question, I wrongly "assumed" you were running Holley carbs, which would have 4 jets in each carb, 1 for each barrel.

      As an over generalization, tuners & racers prefer Holleys, because they are so tunable ... and Non-Tuners tend to prefer Edlebrocks, based on the old Carter line, because they are simpler, more & fail proof. As a 35 year racer & tuner, I can know what every circuit on a Holley does & how to modify it to correct any part of the fuel curve. I have NO experience tuning Edelbrock carbs. But tuning is tuning. I understand how the Carter/Edelbrock works & will be able to guide you correctly. Just the methods are different with the Carter/Edelbrock.



      I was reading today that a cam of that size requires from 18-20* initial and around 35-38 total, so I am guessing a bush change in the dizzy is in order.
      I would agree with that if the compression was 12-1. But for the engine to be "optimum" you will need as much initial timing as you can run without killing starters or causing light load detonation. As Sam suggested, if you could lock out the distributor advance to 12 degrees & run 24+/- degrees of initial timing, your baby will purr like a kitten.

      But, we don't know how much timing it will accept, until we test it, on your engine, your car & the gas available to you.

      Which brings me to this question ... Do you have gasoline options? If so what are they?
      Is Ethanol readily available to you in your area of the world?

      --------------------------------------------------------

      OK, next step ...

      We need to work on the timing, but the carbs are SO RICH, we need to jet them down some before we can proceed & we need to get new spark plugs.

      1. Please do not try to reuse the fouled spark plugs. You'll be wasting everyone's time. Buy 2 sets of new spark plugs. Don't buy Iridium yet, because you need to be able to read them & throw them away. Once you "color up" a set of plugs with an engine that is too rich ... you can not lean the engine & re-read them. You need new plugs each time.

      When you have your engine dialed in, then spend the bucks on Iridium plugs. I think the NGK BKR8EIX plugs will be optimum once you have the fuel & ignition optimum.

      For now, we need 1 step hotter than optimum, so they don't foul as easily, yet 1 step colder than what you currently have. Buy either, NGK BCPR7ES, NGK BCPR7ES-11 or Autolite 3922. Gap them at .035" (for now) and install a new set, along with the tuning changes outlined below. Keep the 2nd set, for round 2 of your engine tuning.

      2. Buy 2 of the CALIBRATION KITS, for these carbs, from Edelbrock, Part# 1486.

      3. One of your issues is ... as vacuum jumps around, it is affecting the metering rods that go into the jets. The metering rod springs WANT to push the metering rod up & out of the jet, which richens the engine. Vacuum is what "pulls" down against the metering rod spring to keep the engine running correctly leaner at low speeds. The big cam duration reduces vacuum at all levels, and the metering rod spring, in this off the shelf carb for "most" applications, is too stiff for the low vacuum you have. You need a softer spring. How soft? To get it optimum, you'll need to test. To be sure, we're not having metering rod pop-up problems, let's start with the blue springs.

      4. The engine is too rich across the board, so you need to jet it down/leaner "some" now ... and maybe more later. You need to stay on the "slightly rich" side ... but currently you're on the "flooding the spark plug" extreme side of rich. From the Edelbrock calibration kit, install the #1422 (.083") jets on the primary side of both carbs.

      *This will get you "closer in the ball park" on jetting, so you can dial in some timing.

      5. For now, until we find out if there is a way to limit the advance on your distributor more, install the black timing advance stop, which should limit the advance around 18 degrees. Then set the initial timing at 20 degrees. CHECK TO MAKE SURE THE TOTAL TIMING is 38 degrees. Adjust the initial timing if needed, but for now, don't exceed 38 degrees.

      *While you're doing this, the goal is to warm the engine up. Once the engine is warm, you can tune the idle & idle mixture

      6. What does the engine idle at now? If it is above 900 rpm, adjust the idle screws down (evenly) to achieve 900 rpm.

      ** Tip: The more you can close the butterflies & achieve the proper idle rpm, the better, because when the butterflies are open to far, they expose the idle transfer slot too much, contributing to a rich, rough idle.

      7. Hook a manifold vacuum gauge to a intake manifold vacuum port. Pick a side & adjust the idle A/F mixtures screws on both carbs (slowly & the same) until you achieve the highest vacuum # (it will be shaky ... do your best). You will need to tap the throttle after each adjustment & see where it lands (both idle rpm & vacuum). Keep tuning until you get the highest vacuum. Go to the other side & do the same.

      What's the rpm at now? If it is above 900 rpm, adjust the idle screws down (evenly) to achieve 900 rpm.

      Start over & adjust all 4 idle A/F mixtures screws ... again & again ... until you have reached the highest vacuum. Each time the idle rpm comes up above 900, adjust it down. Be patient & persistent & you will end up with good idle quality & off-idle responsiveness.

      8. Now go drive it & pay attention to how it runs at ...
      * Each rpm range
      * Under light acceleration
      * Under medium acceleration

      If you hear or feel pinging, bring it back home.

      9. Pull the spark plugs & post 1 photo online of ALL 8 plugs, so I can see the heads ... write a report about how it runs as outlined above ... and we'll keep tuning from there.

      Ron Sutton



      thanks for the help
      No worries.

      Ben

      Ron Sutton

    7. #7
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      Ron i really appreciate this, i will not be able to get the plugs until tomorrow and the jet kit i only have one at the moment, i will have to order another one from the states.
      and sorry yes the carbs are the 500cfm not 600 #1404.

      the gasoline we have here is 91, 95, 98 octane and we can get race fuel, but very expensive. we dont have any ethanol fuel here as i am in a small mining town. i have 98 octane in at the moment.
      i also thought i would let you know, the carbs i removed the choke actuators and blade.

      i will get this stuff and get back to you soon once i start making some changes,
      thanks again
      Ben

      when changing the A/F screws to get highest vacuum to i do a little turn on each of the 4 screws or just work on 1 carb at a time?
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    8. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by benno505 View Post
      Ron i really appreciate this, i will not be able to get the plugs until tomorrow and the jet kit i only have one at the moment, i will have to order another one from the states.
      No worries. We'll work on it when you get the parts.

      and sorry yes the carbs are the 500cfm not 600 #1404.
      Ok. Cool. Just needed to be sure.

      the gasoline we have here is 91, 95, 98 octane and we can get race fuel, but very expensive. we dont have any ethanol fuel here as i am in a small mining town. i have 98 octane in at the moment.
      Holy cow! If you octane is rated the same way ours is in America ... and you have 98 octane available to you ... that's awesome!! 98 will allow you to run the timing curve t this engine really needs.

      i also thought i would let you know, the carbs i removed the choke actuators and blade.
      No worries.

      i will get this stuff and get back to you soon once i start making some changes,
      thanks again
      Ben

      Sounds Good, Ron Sutton


      when changing the A/F screws to get highest vacuum to i do a little turn on each of the 4 screws or just work on 1 carb at a time?

      Do a 1/8 turn on the same side of both carbs until you get the highest vacuum. Then do the same on the other side. Adjust the idle screws to keep the idle at 900 ... and repeat the process until you can't find any more vacuum ... then try 1/16 turns until it is optimum.

      Lastly, if it were me, I would then make very small adjustments to each of the 4 & see if you can get any gain. If the manifold has perfect distribution, you won't find gain by tuning them individually. But if the manifold runners are slightly different, you might.
      :-)

    9. #9
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      thanks, talk soon
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    10. #10
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      Hi Ron,
      had another question, i changed to the black bushing, i will set initial to 19* after i make the carb changes, but what springs should i be looking at?
      attached photo, my cams sweet spot is from 3000-6500
      Name:  TimingCurves.jpg
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    11. #11
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      A good baseline for your engine will be to have all the advance "in" by 3000 rpm. The 1 heavy silver spring & 1 light silver spring achieve that.

      Stick with the 98 Octane fuel ... and once you lean the carb & test drive it ... we'll learn if you can advance the timing curve quicker or not. We want to advance the timing as much as the fuel will allow, to build more torque. You would run it locked at 36-38 if we could, like I do on mine, but it requires better fuel.


      I'll preface this by saying "my engine is very different". It's a 410" small block Dart Chevy with 265 cam intake duration @.050 & 13.78-1 compression, that makes 730 hp on Ethanol.

      I run my MSD Pro Billet E-Curve at 36 degrees with the advance locked out. It retards the timing 20 degrees (from 26 to to 16 degrees) to start. This is so it's not so hard on the starter. Then once it's started, the engine is 36 degrees all the time.

      The cam is much bigger (which reduces cylinder pressure) & my compression is high (which of course, builds cylinder pressure). Overall my engine makes more cylinder pressure ... so I couldn't run 36 degrees locked in ... with 98 octane fuel. My engine is set up for 105 octane E85 for street driving & Ignite brand 114 Octane racing ethanol for track days.

      The points to take from this comparison are, with big cams & lower cylinder pressure, the engine wants more timing, so advance it in as quickly as the fuel octane will allow. More timing will build torque, which your engine is currently soft on. When we get the fuel curve & timing "happy" ... you'll be happy too. It will idle better, take off better, accelerate better, etc.
      Last edited by Ron Sutton; 07-27-2013 at 09:16 AM.

    12. #12
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      ron I know I shouldn't of but I went and got some of the non iridium plugs you mentioned and put them in at .35 gap then I put the black bush in the dizzy and set the timing to 20* initial 38 total, and rpm to 950 but it was sort of surging from 950 -1050 ( I haven't put the other jets in yet as I am waiting for them to turn up) but starting was hard on the starter motor for a brief second and the engine when driving felt like it was surging slightly then when I shut it off it overran for a second. probably not best to go on this until I fix the carbs but I thought I would let you know, I just got impatient as I have been working on my car for 2 years and she is finally on the road.
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    13. #13
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      Haha

      Simply adjusting the idle up to 950 made the car more rich, because you're uncovering the transfer slot more. You will want to get the idle up to 900 rpm by leaning the carb.

      Did you experience any detonation?

      Pull the plugs & post a photo so I can see.

    14. #14
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      Ron, the bushing was something a friend and myself were toying with, i'm sure any machine shop could make one. he measured the closest size MSD bushings and we went from there. unfortunately thats pretty much the only way i know of to get a taylored advance stop for the MSD. when i drag raced i did similar to what you do with your setup with the lockout at 37*, i ended up getting a retard box from MSD so i could use the 20* start retard, plus i added an NOS system and needed the 3 step retard, but a start retard and locked timming is something that could run well on the street when setup properly to do so.

    15. #15
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      Thanks for the update Sam.

      The cool thing about the MSD Pro Billet E-curve distributor, is the start retard is built in. So is the rev limiter.

      Take care.

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      yeah the e curve is a pretty cool setup, it wasn't around when i did my ignition so i had to piece together everything from MSDs offerings, but it all worked out in the end and i'm a firm believer that if it aint broke don't fix it.

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      ron, my jets and springs turned up, just to clarify I need to put the .83 jets in? do I change the jet rod as well and the spring?
      also I have put the black bush in the dizzy and 1 (silver) hard spring and 1 (silver) soft spring, doesn't matter which one goes on which side?

      I will time it and take it for a spin tomorrow and post the pics of the plugs.

      thanks
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      Quote Originally Posted by benno505 View Post
      ron, my jets and springs turned up, just to clarify I need to put the .83 jets in? do I change the jet rod as well and the spring?
      also I have put the black bush in the dizzy and 1 (silver) hard spring and 1 (silver) soft spring, doesn't matter which one goes on which side?

      I will time it and take it for a spin tomorrow and post the pics of the plugs.

      thanks

      For the carb, you need to ...
      a. Put in the .083 jets in the primaries of each carb
      b. Leave the metering rod the same (for now)
      c. Put in the blue metering rod springs.

      For the distributor, you have already have it correct ...
      * Black advance limiting bushing
      * 1 soft & 1 heavy silver spring ... and no it does not matter which side.
      * Set the initial timing at 20 degrees.

      Then ... CHECK TO MAKE SURE THE TOTAL TIMING is 38 degrees. Adjust the initial timing if needed, but for now, don't exceed 38 degrees.

      Then do the tuning plan I outlined for you ... test drive it ... post the results (so far) & show the spark plugs. Then we'll keep making small, safe steps until we get the timing & fuel curve happy.


      Ron Sutton

    19. #19
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      Okay Ron,
      .83 jets are in the primaries, the blue spring is in.
      distributor black bushing in and 1 hard silver and 1 soft silver are in, timing set to 20* ( it was jumping between 20* & 21* not steady, when revved and held at 3000rpm it was at 34-35* total)
      couldn't get idle lower than 1150 with idles back all the way out and I checked to see if butterflies closed which they were. it was hard to start on the alternator. and when I shut it off it overran and hissed.

      but I took it for about 10 min drive and it felt pretty good it had a lot more throttle response and revved pretty well through the range and seem to shift easier. still feels like it could have some more power though.

      I left the a/f screws at 2 turns out on all 4 for now.

      here is the picture of the plugs they all look almost identical, so I only took pics of number 2 and number 5 let me know if you need them all.

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      Name:  number 5.jpg
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      Mopar or no Car
      Your either with us or Behind us

    20. #20
      Join Date
      May 2013
      Location
      qld Australia
      Posts
      249
      Country Flag: Australia
      also I found out today that our 98 octane is more like your guys 95 octane, I wonder if this has any effect
      Mopar or no Car
      Your either with us or Behind us

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